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Join Dr. James Dobson and Sally Burke for an enlightening conversation about the power of prayer in shaping the lives of our children and communities. As president of Moms in Prayer International, Sally reveals insights from her book 'Unshaken' and shares heartwarming stories of answered prayers. This episode highlights the ministry's mission to have two moms praying for every school in order to create a ripple effect of faith and positive change. Tune in to learn how you can become part of this impactful movement, support your children through prayer, and connect with a community that uplifts and encourages.
SPEAKER 02 :
You're listening to Family Talk, the radio broadcasting division of the James Dobson Family Institute. I am that James Dobson, and I'm so pleased that you've joined us today.
SPEAKER 01 :
Well, welcome to Family Talk. I'm Roger Marsh. In just a moment, we're going to hear a powerful presentation about what it means to have unshaken faith in uncertain times. First, though, a special reminder, today is Friday, December 27th. That means there are only four days left in 2024. That means you only have four more opportunities to take advantage of our special year-end matching gift and to reserve your copy of of the 2024 Best of Broadcast Collection from the Dr. James Dobson Family Institute. Now, this six-CD set is also available as a digital download, and we'll be happy to send it to you as our way of thanking you for your gift of any amount in support of the Dr. James Dobson Family Institute. However, there are just four days left in our special dollar-for-dollar matching gift, which means your $100 donation becomes $200, your $500 donation becomes $1,000. You get the idea. So to reserve your copy of the six CD set, the 2024 Best of Broadcast Collection, and have your gift doubled now before the end of the year, go to drjamesdobson.org or call our customer care team at 877-732-6825. In Psalm 16, we read these words, I keep my eyes always on the Lord. With him at my right hand, I will not be shaken. Those words are especially meaningful for today. We're seeing families under pressure from all sides, broken marriages, addiction, abuse, and these challenges don't just affect parents. They are rippling through generations, touching our children's lives as well. Well, on today's broadcast here at Family Talk, we're digging back into the archives to bring you a conversation that's more relevant now than ever before. As Dr. Dobson sits down with Sally Burke, the president of Moms in Prayer International. Her book is called Unshaken, and she shares her surprising path to ministry, along with incredible stories of answered prayers from mothers all across the country. So let's join Dr. Dobson and his guest, Sally Burke, right now on today's edition of Family Talk.
SPEAKER 02 :
Well, hello, everyone. You're listening to Family Talk. I'm Dr. James Dobson. And I want to take those of you who have been listening to me and our programs for at least 15 or 20 years will remember, I hope, a series of programs that we did with a woman named Fern Nichols. She was the founder and president of an organization called Moms in Touch. Then it went on to become Moms in Prayer. And Fern taught tens of thousands of women to meet regularly to pray for their children and for their schools. And it caught on. I had the privilege of playing a role, I think, in helping to publicize the early efforts of this organization and to draw a lot of women to the ministry and to that work, and it grew like Topsy. Fern has become a great friend of this ministry, and I Like I say, I did everything I could to help. Now, I have the privilege of introducing her successor to this ministry. It's still going strong. It's an international ministry. We're going to hear about that. And I want our guests to catch us up, if you will, on Fern's activities and what's happening now. in the ministry now. And with us is Sally Burke, who is the successor to Fern. Sally, welcome to the ministry.
SPEAKER 03 :
Thank you, Dr. Dotson. It's a great joy to be with you. And Fern sends her love to you and says hi. She's doing wonderful. In fact, she still speaks for our ministry. She comes in on Thursday.
SPEAKER 02 :
She's a great speaker. She really is.
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And the vision and mission continues on. What she has passed on, we continue toward two more moms for every school so every child around the world can be prayed for.
SPEAKER 02 :
Well, describe for us where the ministry is now and what's going on. It is international. How many countries is it in?
SPEAKER 03 :
146 countries. Really? Yeah.
SPEAKER 02 :
Is that right? Going back to the late 80s, early 90s, I would not have believed it would have grown that fast and that far. It's obvious that there are millions of women out there who really believe in prayer and know that the only protection for their kids in the kind of world we live in is to be on our knees before the Lord on their behalf. That's what you're trying to do, isn't it?
SPEAKER 03 :
That's right. God has a great plan for this next generation. It's not by surprise that our kids are here in this generation for such a time as this. And they're doing a tremendous battle. We must pray for them. We must continue to battle for the lives of the kids. A tremendous battle when we think about it for the souls of the children.
SPEAKER 02 :
Are the parents anxiety-ridden over what's happening in the schools with the shootings, the violence, and other things that are taking place there?
SPEAKER 03 :
Yes, even Christians can be shaken, but yet when they go to the Lord in prayer, they can stand unshaken as they unload His power through prayer.
SPEAKER 02 :
As a matter of fact, you've written a book by that name, and I want you to explain it. It is titled, Unshaken, Experience the Power and Peace of a Life of Prayer. Tell me what the word unshaken means in this context.
SPEAKER 03 :
Oh, my goodness. You know, as I was witnessing even Christians being shaken in this world, as they are seeing what's going on, I had to share with them what I get to see. You see, I get a bird's eye view of what God's doing all over the world as people take our four simple but powerful steps of prayer. Women in the most hopeless situations empowered through prayer. And they're impacting their children who are impacting others for Christ.
SPEAKER 02 :
Why not describe it? They come together off school grounds usually, right?
SPEAKER 03 :
Yes, yes. Unless it's a private school, then they're on the campuses. They meet just one hour once a week. That's all the Lord needs. They come together one hour once a week and they pray. They just don't talk about prayer, but they actually pray. They begin with praise.
SPEAKER 02 :
This is not a coffee club. You don't come together to gossip a little bit and have a good time seeing with your friends. You go there on your knees and pray.
SPEAKER 03 :
Yeah, God tells us to enter his throne room boldly and confidently to find mercy and help in our time of need. So we're entering to his throne room. We're in a tremendous battle and victory is found on our knees. The weakest saint praying defeats the enemy every time.
SPEAKER 02 :
I want to know a little bit about your background. You were with NASA. You are sort of a statistician or an analyst, a data analyst.
SPEAKER 03 :
Is that what you do? My degree is out of the School of Business and Quantitative Analysis, Computers and Calculus. Where? University of Florida. That was fun. Go Gators. Yeah. What they did was they came and brought me and made me an engineer on the space shuttle. So I became an engineer. Math, you can be anything. And so what we did before the shuttle took off, we tested everything. So I worked with the computers on board. I worked with the computers that tested. I made sure everything was ready for launch day.
SPEAKER 02 :
You're kind of a rare bird, aren't you, for a woman to do that?
SPEAKER 03 :
Did you see Hidden Figures?
SPEAKER 02 :
I think I did.
SPEAKER 03 :
Those were my predecessors. These women were mathematicians.
SPEAKER 02 :
Yes, I did see that. That's a good movie.
SPEAKER 03 :
That's a good movie. And those computers that they were just about to work on, I got to work on those.
SPEAKER 02 :
Really?
SPEAKER 03 :
Yeah. Yeah. So it was fantastic. It was an incredible time, I think, in American history.
SPEAKER 02 :
Men were very skeptical that women could do that job, especially minority women. And they really gave them a hard time, and then they proved themselves. It really is an uplifting movie.
SPEAKER 03 :
Yes, yes, yes. There were only five of us women engineers at that plant at that time, and it was exciting.
SPEAKER 02 :
Did you take that kind of pressure? Oh, yeah, you always do. You had to prove yourself. Did you find men look down on you?
SPEAKER 03 :
Yeah. Oh, yes. Yes. You had to learn not to take it personal. If you went to a meeting and everybody's yelling at you, you just didn't take it personal. You just went back and proved them wrong.
SPEAKER 02 :
And you did.
SPEAKER 03 :
Yes.
SPEAKER 02 :
How long were you there?
SPEAKER 03 :
I was there five years until I had my first child. After about a year later, I came home. I decided that anybody could work on the space shuttle, but not anybody could raise my child.
SPEAKER 02 :
So how does a data analyst for NASA find herself in a prayer movement? How long were you with Fern in that responsibility?
SPEAKER 03 :
I have been since 1990 in Moms in Prayer. And the very first meeting I ever went to, I knew that God blesses our children through prayer. That's the avenue God has chosen to bless us. We have not because we ask not. And so I heard about this prayer group, and I went to it. Well, little did I know you had to pray out loud. I did not know how to pray. You had never done that? No. I asked God, teach me to pray. And how does God answer that prayer? He has me go to a moms in prayer group. And that group was so good to me. They were praying out loud, and I just sat there silently. I was in the very presence of God. As they praise God, God enters the presence of his people.
SPEAKER 02 :
I tell you, Fern knows how to pray, doesn't she?
SPEAKER 03 :
Yes. Yes, but everybody there, short, simple prayers. So you don't, if you never prayed before, come to Moms in Prayer and you're going to learn how to pray. It's going to forever change and touch your life forever. And then your children's lives. And then each one on that school campus, life will be changed as you pray.
SPEAKER 02 :
Have you seen miracles?
SPEAKER 03 :
Yeah. In fact, the first miracle I ever saw was my first grade teacher for my son. I dropped him off and she says, oh, you're in that mom's in touch at that time. Mom's in prayer group. Will you pray? There's a little boy who's very sick. They don't think he's going to make it through the weekend. And I said, yes, we'll pray. So I went back to our group, and we prayed for this little boy. On Monday morning, I went rushing to her. I said, tell me. Tell me, how is he? And she says, well, he's healed. And I'm like, wow, how did that happen? And she goes, you prayed. And so that was my very first miracle. But I saw miracle after miracle. Pretty soon we saw our kids so favored on that campus, our moms and prayer kids. They're all lined up getting awards. And my heart was burdened for every other child sitting there. And I said, oh, Lord, may each one of these kids hear the good news. May they hear it. And so what does God bring on our elementary school campus but a good news club, children evangelism? Over 100 kids would come each month, and they would receive Jesus as their Lord and Savior. Today, they're pastors, they're teachers, they're lawyers. They are now impacting this generation. And then 14 of our 22 teachers we prayed for on this elementary school have come to know Jesus Christ. Yes, it's just amazing.
SPEAKER 02 :
Give us your journey, your spiritual journey. When did you become a Christian?
SPEAKER 03 :
You know what? I don't even know the year. My husband came home one day from work. I was a stay-at-home mom, and we were greeting him in the door. I had a baby on this hip and one holding onto my leg. And he says, Sally, I was listening to John MacArthur on the radio, and I had to pull over. I just received Jesus Christ as my Lord and my Savior.
SPEAKER 02 :
Had you been praying together?
SPEAKER 03 :
Nothing.
SPEAKER 02 :
There was anything going on in your family that would have led to this?
SPEAKER 03 :
Somebody was praying for us. That I do know. I don't know who it was. When I get to heaven, I'll know. But it was obvious somebody was praying for us. And when my husband said that, I said, whoa. I'm thinking in my mind, my husband's working too hard. Something's wrong. But for the next few months, he walked in this peace and this strength. He can say no to the things of the world, and you just witness it. So that Christmas, I was used to getting diamonds or different things. Well, he bought me a Bible. And I thought, okay. And he was telling me how he prayed over what Bible to get me.
SPEAKER 02 :
You were not thrilled over the gift.
SPEAKER 03 :
No, I was surprised to say the least over that gift. And I remember opening it up and I remember reading at the beginning of it. And, you know, this person would be got this person. I thought, well, you know, I'll go to Psalms. And I thought, whoever wrote this book is brilliant. He's making the most incredible truth so simple. And just like a great calculus teacher. It was amazing. And then my husband goes, why don't you read the book of John? And there I saw that Jesus was God. And there I surrendered my life to him. And then I began to listen to the radio.
SPEAKER 02 :
And you don't remember what year that was.
SPEAKER 03 :
I don't remember what year that was.
SPEAKER 02 :
Sally, I remember I found the Lord in 1940. You don't remember yours?
SPEAKER 03 :
Because nobody explained it to me. Nobody said, oh, you're a Christian now. And nobody explained that to me. All I did was I began to read the Bible every day. I began to, you know, it took us about a year to go to church. Some pastor came knocking on our door. And, you know, he comes, he goes, I'd like to invite you to my church. I said, well, come in. Tell me about your church. Do you believe in the Bible? And then we started going to church. It was God's journey for me.
SPEAKER 02 :
Has he remained faithful to the Lord?
SPEAKER 03 :
Oh, my husband?
SPEAKER 02 :
Yes.
SPEAKER 03 :
Yes. Yes, he has. Yeah.
SPEAKER 02 :
And the two of you have been married how long?
SPEAKER 03 :
We have been married 34 years now. Wow.
SPEAKER 02 :
How did you get from the work you were doing at NASA to this responsibility? First, you joined Fern in Moms in Touch. I will always call it that, even though it's Moms in Prayer. And now you have taken over that responsibility. How did the Lord let you know that this is what he wanted you to do?
SPEAKER 03 :
God just kept surprising me, and I kept witnessing him answer prayer wherever we were at. God kept raising up leadership and kept impacting the schools and the children for Christ. And pretty soon Fern called me to headquarters, and she said, I would like you to work with the women around the world. Now, I only speak one language, and I don't speak that very well at all. And I said, Fern, I'll have to pray about it. And God taught me so much as I began to work with our international women around the world to see their faith, to see these courageous women. I mean, some of them live on garbage dumps. Some of them live in mud huts. Yet when you give them the gift of prayer— Oh, yes. We're all throughout South America, Africa, throughout Europe. We're on about every continent there is. So we only have a few more countries to go and we'll be in every country. But, yes, one of the first women I worked with, she came from Rwanda. When she was a young mom there in Rwanda, she lost her two kids during the time of genocide there in Rwanda. She comes here to the United States. She has two more kids, learns about moms in prayer. She takes it back to Rwanda. And she begins to teach these women how to pray, not fight between the tribes, but how to come together and pray. Within a few years after she did that, we had a key leader there who said, Sally, we will no longer be known as a nation of genocide. We will be known as a nation of prayer. I mean, they began to just really open my eyes to what God can do when we pray, when we unleash his power to do his will through prayer. He can do great and mighty things.
SPEAKER 02 :
Do people find the Lord through that ministry?
SPEAKER 03 :
Many, many, many people.
SPEAKER 02 :
So they come not really knowing, like you, didn't know how to pray.
SPEAKER 03 :
Well, I didn't know how to pray, but we have a statement of faith. So they do know the Lord. They accept, you know, is Jesus and God one? Yes. Is the Bible the inherent word of God? Yes. Yes. So they must agree to that. And some of them truly find out who God is. In moms in prayer, you get to know them by name, by attribute, by character. These women become transformed. You know, it's like those who know the name of the Lord will be strong and do great exploits. As they get to know who God is according to his word, all of a sudden they become, you know, just courageous women. They witness God answering prayer for them.
SPEAKER 02 :
Well, let's talk to the woman who has children at home. She is not real sure who she is. She doesn't sense a mission or a responsibility. She's heard about Christ but didn't really know who he is or what he taught or what he came to do. And maybe they also might be lonely.
SPEAKER 03 :
Yes.
SPEAKER 02 :
All right. What do you say to that woman about looking up a Moms in Prayer group and becoming involved in the fantastic mission of this ministry.
SPEAKER 03 :
There's a wonderful sisterhood just waiting for you. You'll never feel alone. You know, you just think about the story of Moses. The children of Israel are out there on the battlefield, battling. Well, our children are battling. And Moses, as long as his arms were up, interceding for the children of Israel— They were winning. Well, his arms got tired. So Aaron and Ur came beside him and lifted up his arms. And the children of Israel were victorious. Well, every week when you come to Moms in Prayer group, there Aaron and Ur come alongside of you. They fall in love with your kids. They pray for your kids. They battle for your kids. I've been with the same group of women for over 20 years. And we continue to pray for those kids. We're never going to give up hope. We know God has a great plan for them. You will grow in confidence. Your kids will be blessed. You won't feel lonely anymore. You'll know who God is and you'll know who you are in Christ. You'll know and understand the plans that God has for you and for your children are for good.
SPEAKER 02 :
When you gather together, do you pray for a specific school or specific children?
SPEAKER 03 :
Yes.
SPEAKER 02 :
Explain what one of those sessions is like.
SPEAKER 03 :
Okay. Well, as soon as you come in, that leader is going to start on time. She's going to say, welcome to my group. Here's a prayer sheet. And then you're going to look at a name of God. You'll look up maybe three scriptures. Let's say God is all-present. And you'll look up the scriptures that go with that or that he's sovereign and nothing's too hard, nothing's impossible. And then you'll take a few minutes to praise. And then you'll go to a time of silent confession. You don't want anything to hold back your prayers. And then you have what I call a Holy Spirit party. You have a time of thanksgiving where you hear prayer after prayer after prayer being answered. And then you intercede on behalf of one of your children. You bathe them in prayer. Like, may Ryan love God with all his heart, with all his mind, with all his soul, with all his strength, and love others as he loves himself. The other mom comes alongside and agrees, or two or more agree. And his name is really done.
SPEAKER 02 :
That must be something to behold. Do visitors ever come in and watch and listen?
SPEAKER 03 :
We have a lot of new moms who come that want to find out about Moms in Prayer. So we welcome them into our groups. And they're probably like me who did not pray out loud for a while. I sat there in the midst of it and witnessed this going on. And then we pray for a teacher. We don't talk about the teachers. We pray for the teachers. That's why so many teachers at our elementary school came to know Jesus as their Lord and Savior, because we prayed for them. And then we pray for the children on the campus. We ask for revival and spiritual awakening. My daughter, in her senior year on a high school, witnessed 91 kids come to know Jesus Christ.
SPEAKER 02 :
You don't.
SPEAKER 03 :
Yeah, and then they kept adding to their numbers. We prayed for Aubrey and her friends that they would not only love Jesus, but they would impact others for Christ. And so they themselves started to pray for their fellow students. They even started a Bible study. And sure enough, when there was a big outreach, 91 kids came to know Jesus, and they started going to this Bible study. I remember I asked my daughter, what are you teaching them? And she goes, well, we're going through the book of Romans line upon line. And they kept adding to the numbers. And it's been six years ago. And they still have that Bible study. Kids are still coming to know Jesus on that school campus. You see, we have not if we ask not. So we must come together for this next generation. We must pray. We must build that wall of fire around those schools. And His glory be within those schools. I've had non-Christian principals tell me they feel the difference when a Moms in Prayer group is on their campus or not.
SPEAKER 02 :
You can see why when I first heard of this concept and got acquainted with Vern, and I saw what she was trying to do, my heart was really drawn to it. And I just said, this is a good thing.
SPEAKER 03 :
Yes.
SPEAKER 02 :
And it has been. I mean, it started off as a little bitty thing.
SPEAKER 03 :
Yes.
SPEAKER 02 :
And then it just grew and grew and grew. How many individual chapters or units do you have?
SPEAKER 03 :
Yeah, we can't even keep count. We know we have over 100,000 women, but that's counting leadership. And so there may be 25 in a group. There may be only two in a group. So we literally do not know how many women that we have in Moms in Prayer. And I want you to think about this, Dr. Dobson. When Fern first started Moms in Touch at that time, which is Moms in Prayer now, she was one shaken mom. Her two kids were in her middle school. So she grabbed another shaken mom and they began to pray.
SPEAKER 02 :
It was divinely inspired. There isn't any question about it. How do they find out in France and Germany and other places around the world? How does that word spread?
SPEAKER 03 :
Multiple ways. Our women so love Moms in Prayer. They realize they've been given a gift to be part of Moms in Prayer. So when they go travel to another country, they take our booklets with them and they go share it. We also, our website, momsinprayer.org, many type in prayer or children and they find out and they contact us. And we have key leadership all throughout the world. We have 60,000 volunteers. These are volunteers. These are moms that want to gather women together. so that they can impact children in schools for Christ.
SPEAKER 02 :
You're excited about it, aren't you?
SPEAKER 03 :
I love it. You know, you asked me the last time, you said, do I miss the excitement of working on the shuttle? I mean, it was tremendous to watch the shuttle take off. But there's nothing like watching a woman's life transform, watching her children's lives transform, watching prodigals not only come home, but become pastors, become missionaries. There's nothing like that in the world.
SPEAKER 02 :
Sally, I congratulate you. Thank you for having the courage to take on a new responsibility, one that didn't have the status that you had as an engineer for NASA. Maybe not the dramatic events when the shuttle blasted off, but the Lord is working in your life, and it's on your face. And I appreciate your doing this. And I'll just pick up where we left off with Fern.
SPEAKER 03 :
Yes, yes, yeah. And Fern's doing well speaking and doing well. She's my mentor still, still prays for me still. You give her our love, will you? I will, Dr. Dobson. Thank you so much for this opportunity to be with you. And we thank the Lord for what you're doing. You're a part of what God's doing around the world.
SPEAKER 02 :
Well, that's what we're here for, too. We're on the same team, aren't we?
SPEAKER 03 :
Yes, we are.
SPEAKER 02 :
Come back and see us, will you?
SPEAKER 03 :
We will. Thank you.
SPEAKER 01 :
You know, we've seen God work in amazing ways when moms come together in prayer. And if you'd like to share this message with another mom in your life, use the Family Talk app or go to drjamesdobson.org forward slash family talk. And while you're there, you'll also find information about joining a moms in prayer group in your area. Well, if you enjoyed today's program, be sure you request the 2024 Best of Broadcast Collection. We've gathered our most impactful programs from this past year and curated them into one CD set. We'll be happy to send it to you as our way of thanking you for your faithful financial support Thank you, Father. every donation dollar for dollar right up until December 31st. So go online to drjamesdobson.org, make your best gift in support of our ministry, and we'll thank you for that tax-deductible donation by sending you a copy of our 2024 Best of Broadcast Collection. Again, go to drjamesdobson.org or write to us at Dr. James Dobson's Family Talk, P.O. Box 39000, Colorado Springs, Colorado, the zip code 80949. Now for Dr. Dobson and all of us here at the JDFI, I'm Roger Marsh. Thanks for spending time with us today. Be sure to join us again next time right here for another edition of Dr. James Dobson's Family Talk. This has been a presentation of the Dr. James Dobson Family Institute.
Family Talk is a Christian non-profit organization located in Colorado Springs, Colorado. Founded in 2010 by Dr. James Dobson, the ministry promotes and teaches biblical principles that support marriage, family, and child-development. Since its inception, Family Talk has served millions of families with broadcasts, monthly newsletters, feature articles, videos, blogs, books and other resources available on demand via its website, mobile apps, and social media platforms. The Dr. James Dobson Family Institute (JDFI) is a Christian non-profit organization located in Colorado Springs, Colorado. Founded initially as Family Talk in 2010 by Dr. James Dobson, the ministry promotes and teaches biblical principles that support marriage, family, and child-development. Since its inception, Family Talk has served families with broadcasts, monthly newsletters, feature articles, videos, blogs, books, and other resources available on demand via its website, mobile apps, and social media platforms. In 2017, the ministry rebranded under JDFI to expand its four core ministry divisions consisting of Family Talk, the Dobson Policy and Education Centers, and the Dobson Digital Library. Dr. Dobson's flagship program, "Family Talk," is aired on more than 1,300 terrestrial radio outlets and numerous digital channels that reach millions of people each month.
Join Dr. James Dobson and Sally Burke for an enlightening conversation about the power of prayer in shaping the lives of our children and communities. As president of Moms in Prayer International, Sally reveals insights from her book 'Unshaken' and shares heartwarming stories of answered prayers. This episode highlights the ministry's mission to have two moms praying for every school in order to create a ripple effect of faith and positive change. Tune in to learn how you can become part of this impactful movement, support your children through prayer, and connect with a community that uplifts and encourages.
SPEAKER 02 :
You're listening to Family Talk, the radio broadcasting division of the James Dobson Family Institute. I am that James Dobson, and I'm so pleased that you've joined us today.
SPEAKER 01 :
Well, welcome to Family Talk. I'm Roger Marsh. In just a moment, we're going to hear a powerful presentation about what it means to have unshaken faith in uncertain times. First, though, a special reminder, today is Friday, December 27th. That means there are only four days left in 2024. That means you only have four more opportunities to take advantage of our special year-end matching gift and to reserve your copy of of the 2024 Best of Broadcast Collection from the Dr. James Dobson Family Institute. Now, this six-CD set is also available as a digital download, and we'll be happy to send it to you as our way of thanking you for your gift of any amount in support of the Dr. James Dobson Family Institute. However, there are just four days left in our special dollar-for-dollar matching gift, which means your $100 donation becomes $200, your $500 donation becomes $1,000. You get the idea. So to reserve your copy of the six CD set, the 2024 Best of Broadcast Collection, and have your gift doubled now before the end of the year, go to drjamesdobson.org or call our customer care team at 877-732-6825. In Psalm 16, we read these words, I keep my eyes always on the Lord. With him at my right hand, I will not be shaken. Those words are especially meaningful for today. We're seeing families under pressure from all sides, broken marriages, addiction, abuse, and these challenges don't just affect parents. They are rippling through generations, touching our children's lives as well. Well, on today's broadcast here at Family Talk, we're digging back into the archives to bring you a conversation that's more relevant now than ever before. As Dr. Dobson sits down with Sally Burke, the president of Moms in Prayer International. Her book is called Unshaken, and she shares her surprising path to ministry, along with incredible stories of answered prayers from mothers all across the country. So let's join Dr. Dobson and his guest, Sally Burke, right now on today's edition of Family Talk.
SPEAKER 02 :
Well, hello, everyone. You're listening to Family Talk. I'm Dr. James Dobson. And I want to take those of you who have been listening to me and our programs for at least 15 or 20 years will remember, I hope, a series of programs that we did with a woman named Fern Nichols. She was the founder and president of an organization called Moms in Touch. Then it went on to become Moms in Prayer. And Fern taught tens of thousands of women to meet regularly to pray for their children and for their schools. And it caught on. I had the privilege of playing a role, I think, in helping to publicize the early efforts of this organization and to draw a lot of women to the ministry and to that work, and it grew like Topsy. Fern has become a great friend of this ministry, and I Like I say, I did everything I could to help. Now, I have the privilege of introducing her successor to this ministry. It's still going strong. It's an international ministry. We're going to hear about that. And I want our guests to catch us up, if you will, on Fern's activities and what's happening now. in the ministry now. And with us is Sally Burke, who is the successor to Fern. Sally, welcome to the ministry.
SPEAKER 03 :
Thank you, Dr. Dotson. It's a great joy to be with you. And Fern sends her love to you and says hi. She's doing wonderful. In fact, she still speaks for our ministry. She comes in on Thursday.
SPEAKER 02 :
She's a great speaker. She really is.
SPEAKER 03 :
And the vision and mission continues on. What she has passed on, we continue toward two more moms for every school so every child around the world can be prayed for.
SPEAKER 02 :
Well, describe for us where the ministry is now and what's going on. It is international. How many countries is it in?
SPEAKER 03 :
146 countries. Really? Yeah.
SPEAKER 02 :
Is that right? Going back to the late 80s, early 90s, I would not have believed it would have grown that fast and that far. It's obvious that there are millions of women out there who really believe in prayer and know that the only protection for their kids in the kind of world we live in is to be on our knees before the Lord on their behalf. That's what you're trying to do, isn't it?
SPEAKER 03 :
That's right. God has a great plan for this next generation. It's not by surprise that our kids are here in this generation for such a time as this. And they're doing a tremendous battle. We must pray for them. We must continue to battle for the lives of the kids. A tremendous battle when we think about it for the souls of the children.
SPEAKER 02 :
Are the parents anxiety-ridden over what's happening in the schools with the shootings, the violence, and other things that are taking place there?
SPEAKER 03 :
Yes, even Christians can be shaken, but yet when they go to the Lord in prayer, they can stand unshaken as they unload His power through prayer.
SPEAKER 02 :
As a matter of fact, you've written a book by that name, and I want you to explain it. It is titled, Unshaken, Experience the Power and Peace of a Life of Prayer. Tell me what the word unshaken means in this context.
SPEAKER 03 :
Oh, my goodness. You know, as I was witnessing even Christians being shaken in this world, as they are seeing what's going on, I had to share with them what I get to see. You see, I get a bird's eye view of what God's doing all over the world as people take our four simple but powerful steps of prayer. Women in the most hopeless situations empowered through prayer. And they're impacting their children who are impacting others for Christ.
SPEAKER 02 :
Why not describe it? They come together off school grounds usually, right?
SPEAKER 03 :
Yes, yes. Unless it's a private school, then they're on the campuses. They meet just one hour once a week. That's all the Lord needs. They come together one hour once a week and they pray. They just don't talk about prayer, but they actually pray. They begin with praise.
SPEAKER 02 :
This is not a coffee club. You don't come together to gossip a little bit and have a good time seeing with your friends. You go there on your knees and pray.
SPEAKER 03 :
Yeah, God tells us to enter his throne room boldly and confidently to find mercy and help in our time of need. So we're entering to his throne room. We're in a tremendous battle and victory is found on our knees. The weakest saint praying defeats the enemy every time.
SPEAKER 02 :
I want to know a little bit about your background. You were with NASA. You are sort of a statistician or an analyst, a data analyst.
SPEAKER 03 :
Is that what you do? My degree is out of the School of Business and Quantitative Analysis, Computers and Calculus. Where? University of Florida. That was fun. Go Gators. Yeah. What they did was they came and brought me and made me an engineer on the space shuttle. So I became an engineer. Math, you can be anything. And so what we did before the shuttle took off, we tested everything. So I worked with the computers on board. I worked with the computers that tested. I made sure everything was ready for launch day.
SPEAKER 02 :
You're kind of a rare bird, aren't you, for a woman to do that?
SPEAKER 03 :
Did you see Hidden Figures?
SPEAKER 02 :
I think I did.
SPEAKER 03 :
Those were my predecessors. These women were mathematicians.
SPEAKER 02 :
Yes, I did see that. That's a good movie.
SPEAKER 03 :
That's a good movie. And those computers that they were just about to work on, I got to work on those.
SPEAKER 02 :
Really?
SPEAKER 03 :
Yeah. Yeah. So it was fantastic. It was an incredible time, I think, in American history.
SPEAKER 02 :
Men were very skeptical that women could do that job, especially minority women. And they really gave them a hard time, and then they proved themselves. It really is an uplifting movie.
SPEAKER 03 :
Yes, yes, yes. There were only five of us women engineers at that plant at that time, and it was exciting.
SPEAKER 02 :
Did you take that kind of pressure? Oh, yeah, you always do. You had to prove yourself. Did you find men look down on you?
SPEAKER 03 :
Yeah. Oh, yes. Yes. You had to learn not to take it personal. If you went to a meeting and everybody's yelling at you, you just didn't take it personal. You just went back and proved them wrong.
SPEAKER 02 :
And you did.
SPEAKER 03 :
Yes.
SPEAKER 02 :
How long were you there?
SPEAKER 03 :
I was there five years until I had my first child. After about a year later, I came home. I decided that anybody could work on the space shuttle, but not anybody could raise my child.
SPEAKER 02 :
So how does a data analyst for NASA find herself in a prayer movement? How long were you with Fern in that responsibility?
SPEAKER 03 :
I have been since 1990 in Moms in Prayer. And the very first meeting I ever went to, I knew that God blesses our children through prayer. That's the avenue God has chosen to bless us. We have not because we ask not. And so I heard about this prayer group, and I went to it. Well, little did I know you had to pray out loud. I did not know how to pray. You had never done that? No. I asked God, teach me to pray. And how does God answer that prayer? He has me go to a moms in prayer group. And that group was so good to me. They were praying out loud, and I just sat there silently. I was in the very presence of God. As they praise God, God enters the presence of his people.
SPEAKER 02 :
I tell you, Fern knows how to pray, doesn't she?
SPEAKER 03 :
Yes. Yes, but everybody there, short, simple prayers. So you don't, if you never prayed before, come to Moms in Prayer and you're going to learn how to pray. It's going to forever change and touch your life forever. And then your children's lives. And then each one on that school campus, life will be changed as you pray.
SPEAKER 02 :
Have you seen miracles?
SPEAKER 03 :
Yeah. In fact, the first miracle I ever saw was my first grade teacher for my son. I dropped him off and she says, oh, you're in that mom's in touch at that time. Mom's in prayer group. Will you pray? There's a little boy who's very sick. They don't think he's going to make it through the weekend. And I said, yes, we'll pray. So I went back to our group, and we prayed for this little boy. On Monday morning, I went rushing to her. I said, tell me. Tell me, how is he? And she says, well, he's healed. And I'm like, wow, how did that happen? And she goes, you prayed. And so that was my very first miracle. But I saw miracle after miracle. Pretty soon we saw our kids so favored on that campus, our moms and prayer kids. They're all lined up getting awards. And my heart was burdened for every other child sitting there. And I said, oh, Lord, may each one of these kids hear the good news. May they hear it. And so what does God bring on our elementary school campus but a good news club, children evangelism? Over 100 kids would come each month, and they would receive Jesus as their Lord and Savior. Today, they're pastors, they're teachers, they're lawyers. They are now impacting this generation. And then 14 of our 22 teachers we prayed for on this elementary school have come to know Jesus Christ. Yes, it's just amazing.
SPEAKER 02 :
Give us your journey, your spiritual journey. When did you become a Christian?
SPEAKER 03 :
You know what? I don't even know the year. My husband came home one day from work. I was a stay-at-home mom, and we were greeting him in the door. I had a baby on this hip and one holding onto my leg. And he says, Sally, I was listening to John MacArthur on the radio, and I had to pull over. I just received Jesus Christ as my Lord and my Savior.
SPEAKER 02 :
Had you been praying together?
SPEAKER 03 :
Nothing.
SPEAKER 02 :
There was anything going on in your family that would have led to this?
SPEAKER 03 :
Somebody was praying for us. That I do know. I don't know who it was. When I get to heaven, I'll know. But it was obvious somebody was praying for us. And when my husband said that, I said, whoa. I'm thinking in my mind, my husband's working too hard. Something's wrong. But for the next few months, he walked in this peace and this strength. He can say no to the things of the world, and you just witness it. So that Christmas, I was used to getting diamonds or different things. Well, he bought me a Bible. And I thought, okay. And he was telling me how he prayed over what Bible to get me.
SPEAKER 02 :
You were not thrilled over the gift.
SPEAKER 03 :
No, I was surprised to say the least over that gift. And I remember opening it up and I remember reading at the beginning of it. And, you know, this person would be got this person. I thought, well, you know, I'll go to Psalms. And I thought, whoever wrote this book is brilliant. He's making the most incredible truth so simple. And just like a great calculus teacher. It was amazing. And then my husband goes, why don't you read the book of John? And there I saw that Jesus was God. And there I surrendered my life to him. And then I began to listen to the radio.
SPEAKER 02 :
And you don't remember what year that was.
SPEAKER 03 :
I don't remember what year that was.
SPEAKER 02 :
Sally, I remember I found the Lord in 1940. You don't remember yours?
SPEAKER 03 :
Because nobody explained it to me. Nobody said, oh, you're a Christian now. And nobody explained that to me. All I did was I began to read the Bible every day. I began to, you know, it took us about a year to go to church. Some pastor came knocking on our door. And, you know, he comes, he goes, I'd like to invite you to my church. I said, well, come in. Tell me about your church. Do you believe in the Bible? And then we started going to church. It was God's journey for me.
SPEAKER 02 :
Has he remained faithful to the Lord?
SPEAKER 03 :
Oh, my husband?
SPEAKER 02 :
Yes.
SPEAKER 03 :
Yes. Yes, he has. Yeah.
SPEAKER 02 :
And the two of you have been married how long?
SPEAKER 03 :
We have been married 34 years now. Wow.
SPEAKER 02 :
How did you get from the work you were doing at NASA to this responsibility? First, you joined Fern in Moms in Touch. I will always call it that, even though it's Moms in Prayer. And now you have taken over that responsibility. How did the Lord let you know that this is what he wanted you to do?
SPEAKER 03 :
God just kept surprising me, and I kept witnessing him answer prayer wherever we were at. God kept raising up leadership and kept impacting the schools and the children for Christ. And pretty soon Fern called me to headquarters, and she said, I would like you to work with the women around the world. Now, I only speak one language, and I don't speak that very well at all. And I said, Fern, I'll have to pray about it. And God taught me so much as I began to work with our international women around the world to see their faith, to see these courageous women. I mean, some of them live on garbage dumps. Some of them live in mud huts. Yet when you give them the gift of prayer— Oh, yes. We're all throughout South America, Africa, throughout Europe. We're on about every continent there is. So we only have a few more countries to go and we'll be in every country. But, yes, one of the first women I worked with, she came from Rwanda. When she was a young mom there in Rwanda, she lost her two kids during the time of genocide there in Rwanda. She comes here to the United States. She has two more kids, learns about moms in prayer. She takes it back to Rwanda. And she begins to teach these women how to pray, not fight between the tribes, but how to come together and pray. Within a few years after she did that, we had a key leader there who said, Sally, we will no longer be known as a nation of genocide. We will be known as a nation of prayer. I mean, they began to just really open my eyes to what God can do when we pray, when we unleash his power to do his will through prayer. He can do great and mighty things.
SPEAKER 02 :
Do people find the Lord through that ministry?
SPEAKER 03 :
Many, many, many people.
SPEAKER 02 :
So they come not really knowing, like you, didn't know how to pray.
SPEAKER 03 :
Well, I didn't know how to pray, but we have a statement of faith. So they do know the Lord. They accept, you know, is Jesus and God one? Yes. Is the Bible the inherent word of God? Yes. Yes. So they must agree to that. And some of them truly find out who God is. In moms in prayer, you get to know them by name, by attribute, by character. These women become transformed. You know, it's like those who know the name of the Lord will be strong and do great exploits. As they get to know who God is according to his word, all of a sudden they become, you know, just courageous women. They witness God answering prayer for them.
SPEAKER 02 :
Well, let's talk to the woman who has children at home. She is not real sure who she is. She doesn't sense a mission or a responsibility. She's heard about Christ but didn't really know who he is or what he taught or what he came to do. And maybe they also might be lonely.
SPEAKER 03 :
Yes.
SPEAKER 02 :
All right. What do you say to that woman about looking up a Moms in Prayer group and becoming involved in the fantastic mission of this ministry.
SPEAKER 03 :
There's a wonderful sisterhood just waiting for you. You'll never feel alone. You know, you just think about the story of Moses. The children of Israel are out there on the battlefield, battling. Well, our children are battling. And Moses, as long as his arms were up, interceding for the children of Israel— They were winning. Well, his arms got tired. So Aaron and Ur came beside him and lifted up his arms. And the children of Israel were victorious. Well, every week when you come to Moms in Prayer group, there Aaron and Ur come alongside of you. They fall in love with your kids. They pray for your kids. They battle for your kids. I've been with the same group of women for over 20 years. And we continue to pray for those kids. We're never going to give up hope. We know God has a great plan for them. You will grow in confidence. Your kids will be blessed. You won't feel lonely anymore. You'll know who God is and you'll know who you are in Christ. You'll know and understand the plans that God has for you and for your children are for good.
SPEAKER 02 :
When you gather together, do you pray for a specific school or specific children?
SPEAKER 03 :
Yes.
SPEAKER 02 :
Explain what one of those sessions is like.
SPEAKER 03 :
Okay. Well, as soon as you come in, that leader is going to start on time. She's going to say, welcome to my group. Here's a prayer sheet. And then you're going to look at a name of God. You'll look up maybe three scriptures. Let's say God is all-present. And you'll look up the scriptures that go with that or that he's sovereign and nothing's too hard, nothing's impossible. And then you'll take a few minutes to praise. And then you'll go to a time of silent confession. You don't want anything to hold back your prayers. And then you have what I call a Holy Spirit party. You have a time of thanksgiving where you hear prayer after prayer after prayer being answered. And then you intercede on behalf of one of your children. You bathe them in prayer. Like, may Ryan love God with all his heart, with all his mind, with all his soul, with all his strength, and love others as he loves himself. The other mom comes alongside and agrees, or two or more agree. And his name is really done.
SPEAKER 02 :
That must be something to behold. Do visitors ever come in and watch and listen?
SPEAKER 03 :
We have a lot of new moms who come that want to find out about Moms in Prayer. So we welcome them into our groups. And they're probably like me who did not pray out loud for a while. I sat there in the midst of it and witnessed this going on. And then we pray for a teacher. We don't talk about the teachers. We pray for the teachers. That's why so many teachers at our elementary school came to know Jesus as their Lord and Savior, because we prayed for them. And then we pray for the children on the campus. We ask for revival and spiritual awakening. My daughter, in her senior year on a high school, witnessed 91 kids come to know Jesus Christ.
SPEAKER 02 :
You don't.
SPEAKER 03 :
Yeah, and then they kept adding to their numbers. We prayed for Aubrey and her friends that they would not only love Jesus, but they would impact others for Christ. And so they themselves started to pray for their fellow students. They even started a Bible study. And sure enough, when there was a big outreach, 91 kids came to know Jesus, and they started going to this Bible study. I remember I asked my daughter, what are you teaching them? And she goes, well, we're going through the book of Romans line upon line. And they kept adding to the numbers. And it's been six years ago. And they still have that Bible study. Kids are still coming to know Jesus on that school campus. You see, we have not if we ask not. So we must come together for this next generation. We must pray. We must build that wall of fire around those schools. And His glory be within those schools. I've had non-Christian principals tell me they feel the difference when a Moms in Prayer group is on their campus or not.
SPEAKER 02 :
You can see why when I first heard of this concept and got acquainted with Vern, and I saw what she was trying to do, my heart was really drawn to it. And I just said, this is a good thing.
SPEAKER 03 :
Yes.
SPEAKER 02 :
And it has been. I mean, it started off as a little bitty thing.
SPEAKER 03 :
Yes.
SPEAKER 02 :
And then it just grew and grew and grew. How many individual chapters or units do you have?
SPEAKER 03 :
Yeah, we can't even keep count. We know we have over 100,000 women, but that's counting leadership. And so there may be 25 in a group. There may be only two in a group. So we literally do not know how many women that we have in Moms in Prayer. And I want you to think about this, Dr. Dobson. When Fern first started Moms in Touch at that time, which is Moms in Prayer now, she was one shaken mom. Her two kids were in her middle school. So she grabbed another shaken mom and they began to pray.
SPEAKER 02 :
It was divinely inspired. There isn't any question about it. How do they find out in France and Germany and other places around the world? How does that word spread?
SPEAKER 03 :
Multiple ways. Our women so love Moms in Prayer. They realize they've been given a gift to be part of Moms in Prayer. So when they go travel to another country, they take our booklets with them and they go share it. We also, our website, momsinprayer.org, many type in prayer or children and they find out and they contact us. And we have key leadership all throughout the world. We have 60,000 volunteers. These are volunteers. These are moms that want to gather women together. so that they can impact children in schools for Christ.
SPEAKER 02 :
You're excited about it, aren't you?
SPEAKER 03 :
I love it. You know, you asked me the last time, you said, do I miss the excitement of working on the shuttle? I mean, it was tremendous to watch the shuttle take off. But there's nothing like watching a woman's life transform, watching her children's lives transform, watching prodigals not only come home, but become pastors, become missionaries. There's nothing like that in the world.
SPEAKER 02 :
Sally, I congratulate you. Thank you for having the courage to take on a new responsibility, one that didn't have the status that you had as an engineer for NASA. Maybe not the dramatic events when the shuttle blasted off, but the Lord is working in your life, and it's on your face. And I appreciate your doing this. And I'll just pick up where we left off with Fern.
SPEAKER 03 :
Yes, yes, yeah. And Fern's doing well speaking and doing well. She's my mentor still, still prays for me still. You give her our love, will you? I will, Dr. Dobson. Thank you so much for this opportunity to be with you. And we thank the Lord for what you're doing. You're a part of what God's doing around the world.
SPEAKER 02 :
Well, that's what we're here for, too. We're on the same team, aren't we?
SPEAKER 03 :
Yes, we are.
SPEAKER 02 :
Come back and see us, will you?
SPEAKER 03 :
We will. Thank you.
SPEAKER 01 :
You know, we've seen God work in amazing ways when moms come together in prayer. And if you'd like to share this message with another mom in your life, use the Family Talk app or go to drjamesdobson.org forward slash family talk. And while you're there, you'll also find information about joining a moms in prayer group in your area. Well, if you enjoyed today's program, be sure you request the 2024 Best of Broadcast Collection. We've gathered our most impactful programs from this past year and curated them into one CD set. We'll be happy to send it to you as our way of thanking you for your faithful financial support Thank you, Father. every donation dollar for dollar right up until December 31st. So go online to drjamesdobson.org, make your best gift in support of our ministry, and we'll thank you for that tax-deductible donation by sending you a copy of our 2024 Best of Broadcast Collection. Again, go to drjamesdobson.org or write to us at Dr. James Dobson's Family Talk, P.O. Box 39000, Colorado Springs, Colorado, the zip code 80949. Now for Dr. Dobson and all of us here at the JDFI, I'm Roger Marsh. Thanks for spending time with us today. Be sure to join us again next time right here for another edition of Dr. James Dobson's Family Talk. This has been a presentation of the Dr. James Dobson Family Institute.
Tune in to Family Talk as Dr. James Dobson speaks with Dr. Alveda King about her commitment to faith-driven activism and family values. Discover the legacy of Dr. Martin Luther King Jr. and how it shaped Alveda King's mission to support life and uplift communities. From her heartfelt stories about overcoming personal and societal challenges to her advice for younger generations, Dr. King reflects on how faith and resilience lead to transformation. Don't miss this compelling discussion filled with wisdom, hope, and a call to embrace our shared humanity.
SPEAKER 03 :
Welcome everyone to Family Talk. It's a ministry of the James Dobson Family Institute supported by listeners just like you. I'm Dr. James Dobson and I'm thrilled that you've joined us.
SPEAKER 01 :
Well, welcome to Family Talk, the broadcast division of the Dr. James Dobson Family Institute. I'm Roger Marsh, and today, this day after Christmas, we're going to do something a little bit different. I'm stepping out from behind the announcer's microphone and sliding into the co-host's seat. And we're about to hear a broadcast that was recorded at the National Religious Broadcasters Convention in Nashville, Tennessee. It's the largest assembly of Christian communicators in the world. And I'm thrilled to announce that my guest for today's program is Dr. Alveda King. She is the niece of Dr. Martin Luther King Jr. and the daughter of Reverend A.D. King, both giants of the civil rights movement. Today, Dr. King carries on her family's legacy of service as an evangelist, author, and passionate pro-life advocate. She's the founder of Speak for Life, which empowers advocates for the unborn, and also leads Alveda King Ministries. Well, Dr. King, it is an honor to have you here on Family Talk. And before we begin, please know that Dr. Dobson and his wife, Shirley, have asked me to send their warmest regards.
SPEAKER 03 :
Hi, Roger, and hello to all the listeners. And it's wonderful to greet you in the name of Jesus. And may God bless us as we speak and hear and to use everything that God gives us in a fruitful way.
SPEAKER 01 :
Amen. Amen to that. Many of our listeners, of course, are familiar with your family. They may not be familiar with your personal story. Let's talk about that. I mean, the fact that you grew up in the family that you grew up in, I mean, that's enough of a legacy in and of itself. But if you can give us the short version of that. for those who don't know.
SPEAKER 03 :
If I can do this first, legacy, family is so important to me. And of course, I was born into the same family that birthed to Reverend Dr. Martin Luther King Jr. And I want to talk about that. But I want to say, because I don't think that people ever hear this part of this testimony, Dr. Dobson and Shirley helped me to raise my children. Now, let me tell you how that happened. I'm an old lady now, 73. All of my children are adults and I have grandchildren. But when I was raising my children, I was at my wits end. I had six strong-willed children. And now I have 11 strong-willed grandchildren. I didn't know how to handle them. And so I followed Dr. Dobson's ministry on the strong-willed children. child. And I learned how to work with them because I had the kind of children, you know, the scripture, spare the rod and spoil the child. So I would try to spank them or do all that and they would cross their arms. It didn't hurt. It didn't hurt.
SPEAKER 01 :
Yeah. What was that noise?
SPEAKER 03 :
So this is what I got. The Bible didn't say hurt the child, kill the child. And if you beat them, it didn't say do it for destructive purposes.
SPEAKER 01 :
Amen.
SPEAKER 03 :
So I'm going to give you a spanking now, and then we're going to sit down and read the Bible and figure out what we both should have been doing, and we're going to read it together. So I grew up with my children, and now my grandchildren, with Dr. Dobson and Shirley's messages and lessons. And so I wanted to say that. Well, thank you. Now, to answer, being born into what I call a legacy family. Every family is a legacy family. God makes no mistakes, so... God has put us in the families that God chose for us to be born into. But in my family, Reverend Dr. Martin Luther King Jr., and my daddy, Reverend Alfred Daniel Williams King, and their sister, Christine King Farris, brothers and sisters. And so we were taught to love God. Daddy King was a preacher. His wife's father was a preacher, and his wife's grandfather was a preacher. Daddy King inherited Ebenezer Baptist Church as a pastor from his wife's family. And so I was raised by preachers, business people, creative people, educators, and people who were involved in government. And so that's who you see before you today. We were taught faith, hope, and love. Amen. to forgive our enemies. And we were taught that of one blood, God made all people to live on the face of the earth. We are not separate races. And my uncle would say, we must learn to live together as brothers and our lead as sisters and not perish together as fools.
SPEAKER 01 :
Beautifully put and so well stated. And this living legacy that you have even today, something else you and Dr. Dobson have in common is your commitment to the sanctity of human life. And you were named one of the 50 greatest pro-life leaders of the last 50 years. You and Dr. Dobson share space on that list. Talk about why the sanctity of life is so important to you, Alveda King. I know you have a story to tell about why the pre-born child is so important as well as the mother of that pre-born child.
SPEAKER 03 :
Well, I remember when Dr. Dobson began to get those ultrasound machines, and that was the technology that was being used in medicine. And he launched a whole crusade to put those ultrasounds in so many other places, in pregnancy care centers and community places where mothers could see that baby in their stomach. And I remember saying, I wish they had had that ultrasound technology when I had my abortions. Because if I had been able to see that ultrasound, I would not have had any abortions. I ended up with two abortions and a miscarriage because of damage. Well, for instance, my grandfather, my mom conceived me, mom and dad, in 1950. And mom was a college student. Abortion was illegal, but they were doing DNCs, procedures to explore if you had a stomachache.
SPEAKER 01 :
That's what they called it. That's what they did.
SPEAKER 03 :
And so mom wanted to get that exploratory process because she, if I am pregnant, I don't know what to do. And my granddaddy, they went, she and her mother, Big Mama Bessie, went to their pastor. Mom and dad were engaged to be married. They got married before I was born, actually. But granddaddy said, that's an abortion. You can't do that. That's my granddaughter. She has bright skin and bright red hair, and she's going to bless many people. Now, prophetically, that was my prophetic ultrasound.
SPEAKER 01 :
Oh, that's wonderful.
SPEAKER 03 :
And so the ultrasound, of course, has saved many, many babies since those times and those days. I repented in 1983. He received Jesus Christ, not as granddaddy's God or daddy's or uncle's God, mama's. Jesus became my Lord in 1983. So I realized my whole worldview changed according to the Bible. Choose life so that you and your children can live. And my whole mindset changed in 83. So where I had supported women's rights, which included abortion prior to that, had been elected to public office on various platforms. I said, no, this is a human being, regardless of skin color, regardless of community, regardless if it's a boy or girl. It's a human being. And from that day on, 83, to today, I have shared the message with Dr. Dobson, supported the ultrasound ministry, the pregnancy care centers, the elect people who believe in human life from the womb to the tomb and beyond. That philosophy came, really, lights came on the moment I accepted Jesus Christ as my Lord and Savior.
SPEAKER 01 :
Dr. Alveda King, you mentioned your time spent serving in the state legislature in the state of Georgia. It was a tough time for a lot of people, especially for those in the Christian faith and pro-life community. Has you seen it change? I mean, I look at the Dobbs decision. What was your reaction to that when you first, June 24th, 2022, what a great day that was for so many people who wanted to see Roe versus Wade overturned. What was your initial reaction?
SPEAKER 03 :
One of my granddaddy, Daddy King's favorite scriptures was write the vision and make it plain so that those who see it can run with it. And truth has to be told. The Bible talks about generations to come. Teach your children and your children's children and your children's children's children. So moving forward, if truth is not told in every generation, every decade and on every platform, people forget. So when we look at the reversal of Roe versus Wade, the Dobbs case, It didn't just happen overnight. It didn't just happen in a vacuum or anything like that. There were years and years of people proclaiming gospel truth that human life is sacred. And when we forget to proclaim that truth, then people forget. And so that's when bad things happen. And there's a scripture, when bad things happen, it's because good people do nothing. Right. And I have a saying, when peripherals collide, convergence is imminent. That can be for good or bad. When a lot of bad things happen, they all come together and they make up evil. But when people do what's right, trust each other, love each other, repent, ask for Jesus to come into their lives, then whatever our gifts and talents happen to be, they can become useful when we serve each other and we serve God. So understanding that. I can take no credit, really, for the reversal of Roe v. Wade, but I can take credit. We all can. Because everyone who prayed, God, that's a bad law. Fix it. We all together, our prayers, our efforts, our governmental efforts, our serving efforts, our protests in front of those abortion mill efforts, those were needed too. When you put all of that together, then you see hearts change. And I'm so excited to be at NRB. Thank you. And that's where we're recording this. I'm seeing so many young people.
SPEAKER 01 :
Yes.
SPEAKER 03 :
And without the young and without their voices and the technology, then we can't do it. I would say to people not to be afraid in this space. And that's my song, Occupy. In the spaces in between, don't be afraid. Satan has a title, Prince of the Power of the Air, but it's just a title. Jesus has all authority. He has given us authority. He says, Occupy till I come. And he's given us authority to tread on snakes and scorpions. Do not fear. Fear not.
SPEAKER 01 :
Amen.
SPEAKER 03 :
Knock out the uncircumcised Philistines.
SPEAKER 01 :
I love it. That's exactly where we need to be. You talked about how Dr. Dobson helped you with your six kids and now your 11 strong-willed grandkids. Oh, my goodness. And good for you. Lots of copies of The Strong-Willed Child. Still.
SPEAKER 03 :
And it's so relevant right this minute.
SPEAKER 01 :
It is. It is. It's perfect. When you were younger, I mean, think about when you were born, the civil rights movement was in full swing when you were in those very impressionable years, middle school. What was that like at home? What was it like hearing the conversations behind the scenes that we didn't see? We saw the marches. We saw the protests. We didn't hear the strategy sessions.
SPEAKER 03 :
I learned the truth of those strategy sessions the hard way when my uncle, Reverend Dr. Martin Luther King Jr., was killed. Well, let's go back to 1963. Before that, that was 68. So we were in Birmingham, Alabama. And Birmingham was often called Bombingham because there was a lot of anarchy and bombings and hates over skin color in Birmingham. And our home was bombed. It was the night before Mother's Day in 1963. Daddy was working on his sermon. Mama was setting the table. The children had already been put to bed. My brother was in the middle of the House of Orange home. He was watching a war movie, and he had fallen asleep on the couch, and the bombs were going off on the TV. Daddy gets up, Holy Spirit-inspired, I believe, walks to the front. He looks at my mother, who's standing looking out the picture window, and the window had begun to crack. Dad said, let's get out of here. It's too quiet. He takes mom either by the hand or picked her up. There's two stories on that. I don't know. But they get to the middle of the house. The whole front of the house explodes. There were two bombs. First, it cracked the window. Holy Spirit had sent daddy to get mother. He gets to the middle of the house. The whole front of the house blows up. So what I remember from that, they were trying to kill my uncle, Martin Luther King Jr., who usually stayed in our guest room. But God had sent him away. He didn't spend the night in that room that night. And so daddy gets out on a car. Because the outside agitators, and that's people who are paid to go into a community and stir up anarchy in times of fear and distress. So they were there. And then the residents of the community had come out of their home. So all of a sudden, people were flooding the streets. They were trying to turn the cars over, starting fires and things. So daddy stands on the car. I don't remember if he had a bullhorn or not, but I remember him saying, wait a minute, wait a minute. No, no. If you have to hit somebody, hit me. My family and I are OK. Please go home and pray. Please go home and pray. The residents who knew us heard that they went home. So all the people who were causing the ruckus were left out there. And so Daddy quelled that storm and asked people to go home and pray. I remember that. And then in 68, by then the movement of black power and women power and free love and all that was going on. Martin Luther King Jr. was killed. And I remember saying to my dad, he was grieving. I didn't think about that. He was about to take my uncle's widow to get the body. And I said, Daddy, I hate white people. I hate white people, Daddy. Alveda, you can't hate white people. White people pray with us. White people live with us. White people work with us. White people go to jail with us. White people die with us. White people didn't kill my brother. White people didn't kill your uncle. The devil did. He said of one blood, God made all people. To live together on the face of the earth has nothing to do with skin color. It has to do with the human heart. So that was a hard lesson. But I remember daddy doing that. I remember my grandfather saying, serve and serve God and serve each other. I remember my uncle talking about love. And my daddy made me believe Jesus Christ was real, that Jesus walked on water and turned the water to wine. And that's why today I'm able to forgive quickly and keep living.
SPEAKER 01 :
That's so important for people to hear. You mentioned the agitators who come into certain areas. I don't think people realize how many paid actors are the ones who show up. We think those are the citizens of the town.
SPEAKER 03 :
Why are the people burning up their own house?
SPEAKER 01 :
Exactly, exactly. Why would you? And we understand the passion. We understand the frustration. But we don't understand the destruction.
SPEAKER 03 :
That's right.
SPEAKER 01 :
And I think the beauty of what your uncle and your father instilled in you and the ministry you carry on with Alveda King Ministries is that heart for saying, look, we want to tell the truth.
SPEAKER 02 :
Yes.
SPEAKER 01 :
What's really happening. Yes. And it's beautiful to see how God has used all of those moments in your life. What would you say now to the younger generation who's coming up and saying, well, Dr. King, with all due respect, you don't know what it's like to be young and black in America in 2024. which is 60 years removed, you've got a lot of wisdom to share with younger people who are seeing injustices and wondering, okay, what's a godly response? What would you tell them?
SPEAKER 03 :
I have that beautiful opportunity with my own children and own grandchildren. It's hopeless. The world is terrible. You don't see anything. You don't know that. I say, yes, I know that. And yet I am determined to always overcome evil with good. And when we talk to the young people like that, that's where their hope comes from. And then we have to remind the young, and when I say the young, that's even the little babies now almost, into preteens all the way up. They don't know their history.
SPEAKER 01 :
I'm talking with Dr. Alveda King today here on this special edition of Dr. James Dobson's Family Talk, reminiscing, looking forward to the future, and moving forward now. You mentioned the legacy that Dr. Dobson has had in helping you. Can you just briefly touch on that for just a moment?
SPEAKER 03 :
When I sit and think about Dr. Dobson, Shirley, that whole legacy and that family, the days that I studied about the strong-willed child with six children of my own with strong wills and now 11 grandchildren. And I talk to all of my children often. And they say, Mom, we just still think you're great. You've taught us so much. And one other thing, during that same time period with Dr. Dobson, Integrity Music had done a series on Bible music, and it sang the scriptures continually, continually. And so I played that in my home and in my car and in the music environment. And my children always say, now they're playing scripture music to their children. Love it. So it's important when we train up a child in the way that child should go. When the child is mature, the child will not depart, come back to it. I did. I certainly did. And my children and grandchildren are doing that. There is something that's occurring right now here in 2024, and I was so amazed by it. The fights over the national anthem. Colin Kaepernick knelt a while back, and everybody thought that was so disrespectful and so terrible. And now there is another anthem, Lift Every Voice and Sing, which some call the Black Anthem, Negro Anthem, which was written by a black Republican in honor of Abraham Lincoln's birthday, which is so funny.
SPEAKER 01 :
Right, right.
SPEAKER 03 :
So now people want to fight, well, which anthem? I said, do you ever go to church and they sing two or three different songs? And you get in an argument about which song they shouldn't sing.
SPEAKER 01 :
Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER 03 :
So we have a national anthem and it says, oh, say, can you see? Well, we better see. We better see the truth. We better remember the beautiful history and all together as Americans sing that song. But I have sung that song, the national anthem, and then turned right around at the same rallies. And Father Frank Pavone and I, for instance.
SPEAKER 01 :
From your Priests for Life days.
SPEAKER 03 :
From my Priests for Life days would sing Lift Every Voice and Sing.
SPEAKER 01 :
Oh, I'd love to hear that.
SPEAKER 03 :
And then we would say, but we're not singing it over skin color. We're singing it for the babies.
SPEAKER 01 :
Mm-hmm.
SPEAKER 03 :
So when we find ourselves splintering and arguing, that's strife. And we have to stop it. And we can do it if we continue faith, hope, love, repentance, forgiveness, embracing human dignity from the womb to the tomb and beyond. And even those who say, oh, well, the best thing to do for abortion right now is to say we'll stop it after six weeks or 20 weeks or something. Why argue over weeks? Why not just try to save every life possible without killing anybody and serve the baby and the mother? So when we get bogged into fighting over weeks or... Now, this one is real crazy. You have to think about this. And I pray that your listeners pick this up, too. Well, my uncle said, hate cannot drive out hate. Only love can do that. Darkness cannot drive out darkness. Only light can do that. So we admit abortion is evil. So how are we going to use evil abortion to drive out abortion?
SPEAKER 02 :
Right.
SPEAKER 03 :
By making a law of an exception, we're going to take this little bit of evil. We're still going to do it, but it's going to get rid of the other evil. Evil will not get rid of evil. It won't do it. So we have to find ways to serve people with life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. From the womb to the tomb, beyond that includes the mama, the baby, the daddies. the grandparents, the community, and we actually can do it. If we just enforce life-affirming laws that are already on the books, because it's one thing to pass a law, but if the law is never enforced, it won't matter.
SPEAKER 01 :
Amen. Amen. That's powerful testimony. And you were talking music earlier, and I was just trying to envision Frank singing Lift Every Voice. I mean...
SPEAKER 03 :
We would sing it together. It's a beautiful hymn.
SPEAKER 01 :
I like the Clyburn suggestion of making it a national hymn.
SPEAKER 03 :
And don't think about skin color when you sing it.
SPEAKER 01 :
Just don't do that. It's such a song of unification, overcoming. I mean, Christians can relate to it. Everybody should be able to relate to it. Music has that power, and I know that's a huge part of your ministry, Alveda King. Talk about what you've been doing musically, and maybe we can even convince you to sing a little bit.
SPEAKER 03 :
I might do that.
SPEAKER 01 :
You just might? Okay.
SPEAKER 03 :
Well, one, I just started singing it around the late 80s, early 90s. Thank you, Lord, for saving me. As a matter of fact, I'll just do that one right quick now. Thank you, Lord, for saving me. Thank you, Lord, for saving me. Lord, you are my healer and you're my provider. Thank you for supplying all my need. Now, there's a YouTube video, Elvita King. Thank you, Lord. So you can see that you can occupy until he comes. Occupy. Jesus said occupy and to overcome. So we occupy and we overcome by the blood of the lamb and the word of our testimony.
SPEAKER 01 :
Yes, those great words from Revelation. Television has been a part of your ministry for a long time. You've been a contributor to Fox and Friends. You've been on Fox Nations with Alveda King's house. You have a brand new talk show that just launched a television program called The Vision. Take us through what The Vision is all about. I understand it really got off to a fantastic start.
SPEAKER 03 :
Well, we have a website, thevisiontvshow.com. And on the media dropdown, you can see the first four shows. There's a schedule of 24 of them, and we're still in production. I'm working with Destiny Yarbrough, and we are co-executive producers. And my friend, Dave Gardner, who 10 years ago, we did a pilot called The Vision.
SPEAKER 01 :
Really? Yeah.
SPEAKER 03 :
And we were tired of the secular show, The View. Now we've got The Christian View. It's a good show. It's out there. And there are some other shows, The Christian Vision, all of that. So we have joined that pool of overcoming evil with good with a Christian show, a Bible-based show. And we talk about different topics. We talk about hard topics, raising our children, The abortion issue, we were on with Lance Wall now. So it's exciting to join Destiny and four other hosts. We rotate as hosts and we talk about hard issues and fun issues of the day.
SPEAKER 01 :
True renaissance woman, Dr. Alveda King. Alveda King's house has a lot of cooking. I mean, that's a big part of your ministry, too. Absolutely. Why is the culinary so important? I don't think people realize there's a real spiritual connection to preparing food, making meals.
SPEAKER 03 :
There's a spiritual connection to the land, to the earth, to the soil. We've got the parables of where seed is sown, and it can only grow and prosper and blossom. And so we want people to be healthy, whole, and spirit, soul, and body. And we do that nutritionally as well. And interestingly enough... Gardening was always my hobby. But in 2023, I became a certified farmer with the USDA because I would on Elvita King's house and on my Christmas show with the vision. And now we're going to do cooking rollouts. I grow herbs and vegetables in my home garden. And now we're doing hoop houses with the farm and all of that, teaching people how how to return to the earth, to return to the soil and then to cook good, nutritious food. And I use some of the family recipes in my cookbook as well. And that's a lot of fun. So there's a lot of interest in cooking and also restoring houses, too. So people are we're in a time of restoration, looking for answers, looking for health. And so we find it, but we still look for our source and inspiration from God, Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.
SPEAKER 01 :
It all comes back to that restoration, redemption, reconnection with God, and your ministry in every aspect of it, in every language, every expression of it speaks to that. Dr. Alveda King, thank you for your time today. Thank you for being with us and the wonderful ministry that you have. And God bless you from all of us here at the Dr. James Dobson Family Institute. We appreciate you so much.
SPEAKER 03 :
Thank you.
SPEAKER 02 :
be strong. The battle rages on, but the victory
SPEAKER 01 :
Well, that was Dr. Alveda King and her song, Occupy, a kingdom victory song. You can find it on YouTube and Spotify, by the way. And if you'd like to share today's program with a friend or loved one, simply visit us online at drjamesdobson.org forward slash Family Talk. Or remember, you can always share our programming using the Family Talk app. Well, if you enjoyed the conversation you heard today, be sure to request your copy of our 2024 Best of Broadcast collection. Today's interview with Dr. Alveda King is just one of the many exceptional programs we've included on this six CD set, which is also available as a digital download. To get yours, go to drjamesdobson.org. We'll be happy to send you a copy as our way of thanking you for your gift of any amount in support of our ministry. That's drjamesdobson.org forward slash family talk. Remember, you can also give a gift over the phone when you call 877-732-6825. And keep in mind, now through New Year's Eve, December 31st, your gift will go twice as far thanks to a special matching grant that's in effect. Just imagine, a $50 donation becomes $100. A $1,000 donation becomes $2,000. But don't wait. The deadline is December 31st, and time is running out. To make a secure donation online, go to drjamesdobson.org. Well, I'm Roger Marsh. Thanks for spending some time with us today. And be sure to join us again tomorrow right here for another edition of Dr. James Dobson's Family Talk. This has been a presentation of the Dr. James Dobson Family Institute.
In this episode, reflect on the spiritual insights delivered by Dr. Adrian Rogers, exploring the theological questions surrounding pain and suffering in the life of Jesus. Delve into the humanity and divinity of Christ as he chooses to suffer for humanity’s sake, offering a compelling story of love and salvation. This Christmas, deepen your understanding of why God allowed this pain and the eternal message of hope it carries.
SPEAKER 1 :
Music
SPEAKER 03 :
Well, hello, everyone, and Merry Christmas to you all. I'm Dr. James Dobson, and I hope you're enjoying this wonderful holiday with friends and family and celebrating the birth of our Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ. Over 2,000 years ago, the very Son of God left the glory of heaven to become a child and ultimately pay the penalty for our sins through His perfect sacrifice. You'll hear more about Christ's purpose while He was here on earth today and yesterday. We took that occasion to air the first part of a program, a message actually, that was given on Christmas Day by Dr. Adrian Rogers. He was the pastor of Bellevue Baptist Church in And many of his sermons have been heard ever since, even posthumously on his program, Love Worth Finding. I listen to him still today. It's amazing how relevant his messages are. And what we heard last time was the first half of a message called Stars and Scars, of Christmas. It's a Christmas message, and if you heard it yesterday, you are excited as we are about hearing the balance of this program. You might even find out what he means by the title, Stars and Scars of Christmas. Dr. Rogers was on my board of directors when I was at Focus on a Family a number of years ago, and we loved him. I said yesterday, And I repeated today that he was almost a brother to me, and I miss him still today. His wife, Joyce, is our friend to this day, and we love her and pray for her and pray for her family to this time. Now, we're going to hear the second half of that message today, as I indicated, and I hope you will be blessed by it. This is Dr. Adrian Rogers speaking on a Christmas day at Bellevue Baptist Church on the subject, Stars and Scars of Christmas.
SPEAKER 05 :
Now, here's a big question. Why? Why would God Almighty, who could do anything, whatever He wants, whenever He wants, why would He choose to suffer? Second point. Not only do the scars of Jesus tell us that as a man he suffered, but the scars of Jesus tell us that as a man, Jesus sympathizes. Put down now Hebrews chapter 2, verses 17 and 18. Wherefore, in all things, it behooved him to be made like unto his brethren. The him is Jesus. The brethren, that's us. He's made like us. That he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God. To make reconciliation for the sins of the people. For in that he himself hath suffered. Underscore that. He himself hath suffered being tempted. That means being tested. He is able to succor. S-U-C-C-O-R. Which means to help them that are tempted. Jesus said when you suffer. I suffer. And not only do I suffer but because I suffer. I understand. Dr. Paul Brandt. was a missionary, a great surgeon, who spent a lot of time ministering to lepers in leper colonies. And Dr. Brand talked about the horrible sin of leprosy. And he said one of the debilitating sins of leprosy is that it removes the ability of the human body to feel pain. And then here's what Dr. Paul Brand said, and I copied it down for you. Listen to what this great doctor said. He said, if I had the power to eliminate pain, I would not exercise that right. Pain's value is too great. Notice, pain's value. Rather, I would lend all of my energies in doing all that I can to help when the pain turns to suffering. I want to tell you something. Our Lord suffered and our Lord sympathizes. And the pain that he allows us to have is really proof of his love. After Adam and Eve sinned in the Garden of Eden, God said, cursed is the ground. Now listen to this. For your sake. He didn't say for your punishment. but for your welfare. For your sake, thorns and thistles would it bring forth to you. God put a curse on the environment in which we live. Because the worst thing could happen to us would be for us to have the sickness, the infection of sin, Thank God for pain. It tells us something is wrong. Pain has a unifying purpose. It is pain that draws us together. Your whole body comes to the aid of a suffering member. Do you know what unifies a church? Suffering. Do you know what brings people together? Suffering. The Bible says when one member suffers, all members suffer with it. Dr. Brand said, I can tell the health of a human body by its reaction to pain. If it doesn't react to pain, there is something wrong. You can tell the health of a church by its reaction to pain. How much does a church care for the homeless, the sick, those with broken hearts and broken hopes and broken homes? A church is unified by pain. Pain has a protecting purpose. Pain has a unifying purpose. And pain has a correcting purpose. God allows pain... to protect us. And if it weren't for the pain, we would never know that we're being hurt. You put your hand on a hot stove and there's a message that goes immediately to your brain and says, it's hot down here. And the brain says, well, move. And it moves just like that. Now, you don't realize you're doing all that thinking, but you're doing that. Because that pain says that you need to protect yourself. Pain comes in all kinds of forms. There's physical pain. There is emotional pain. There is spiritual pain. And Americans want to kill pain at any cost. That's the reason we have so many sedatives. That's the reason kids get on drugs. To kill the pain. And I want to tell you, when kids get on drugs, they really don't care what their parents think. They are in another world. Some turn to alcohol. Why do we do this? Why do people have an affair? Why do they commit adultery? Many times, trying to kill the pain of insecurity and loneliness. The problem is that many people take a sedative when they need a savior. The pain is to tell us that something is wrong. Now, Jesus gives us peace and joy, not primarily to remove the pain. That'll be done at the rapture. But to help us to endure the pain. Now, when we see scars in the hands of Bethlehem's babe, they are a testimony to his humanity. A God... with scars they tell us as god he suffered as man he suffered as god he sympathizes as man he sympathizes he knows how we feel he understands and jesus will hear the cries of a blind beggar before he hears the cries of a proud pharisee now here's the third thing Not only do the scars of Jesus tell us that as a man Jesus suffered. And not only do they tell us that as a man Jesus sympathizes. But the scars of Jesus tell us as a man Jesus saves. That is so important that you understand this. Why was he nailed to that hellish cross? Why did he step out of glory? Why did he allow himself to be pierced? Why were those nails put into his quivering hands and to those precious feet? Why? Well, the Bible says without shedding of blood is no remission of sin. Now, I want to remind you something, friend. Jesus did not have to suffer. He could have refused the cross. Jesus said, no man taketh my life from me. I lay it down of myself. Jesus was the only man who ever chose to die. You say, what about a suicide? He doesn't choose to die. He only chooses the time of his death. He's going to die anyway. A new statistic out on death, one out of one people die. Jesus was the only one who had no sin in himself. He could have refused death. He said, no man taketh my life from me. I lay it down of myself. It was not those nails that held him to the cross. It was love. He did not have to suffer. But he did suffer. May I ask you a question? Those of you who have children. And those children suffer. Those children are in trouble. Those children are in pain. Would you rather not know about it? Or would you rather know about it so you can move in and do something about it? Suppose you and your wife... or celebrating an anniversary. You're taking that once-in-a-lifetime vacation and you're in a hotel in Hawaii and you have a child here left at home and that child is in an automobile accident. Question, would you want your vacation interrupted to know your child was in an automobile accident? I mean, after all, if nobody told you, you didn't know. Wouldn't you just rather be over there in paradise, not knowing that your child was suffering? Because when you know your child is suffering, then what does that do to the vacation? Immediately you pack, you leave everything, and you go back home. Which of you would say, well, I had rather not know. I'd just rather live in my oblivious happiness. No. If you love somebody... When they hurt, you hurt. And when you can do something about it, if you can, you want to. And if you can't do anything about it, you still want to be there to hurt with them and suffer with them. The question I say is not why does man suffer? Why did God suffer? I'll tell you why God suffered. For God so loved the world. that He gave His only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in Him should not perish, but should have everlasting life. Isaiah 53, verse 3, He was wounded for our transgressions. He was bruised for our iniquities. The chastisement of our peace was upon Him, and with His stripes we are healed. He loves us. There was a wayward boy who had so disgraced his parents that And they'd given him chance after chance after chance. And he had failed, embarrassed them and hurt them and wounded them and refused them and rebelled against them. One man, this was his son, was talking to another man. And the other man gave this suffering father this advice. He said, I'll tell you what I would do. If that were my son, here's what I would do. And this man giving advice to the brokenhearted father was telling him how he should just cast this son off and be done with him and seal him off. And he said, if that's my son, that's what I would do. And this father said, yes. And if he were your son, that's what I would do. But he's not your son. He's my son. And I can't do that. He is my son. And friend, God loves us. There's no one here that God does not love. There's no one that God does not want to save. And you see, he's God in human flesh. And the question is, why does God suffer? We might say that he does suffer, that he might be a sympathizing Savior, but he suffers that he might be a Savior who sympathizes, that he saves. Phil Donahue, discussing Christianity, said this, he could not understand the cross. And here's what he said. And I quote, how could an all-knowing, all-loving God allow his son to be murdered on a cross in order to redeem my sins? If God the Father is so all-loving, why didn't he come down and go to Calvary? The answer is, of course he did. That's exactly what he did. This was God in human flesh. Put this scripture down, 2 Corinthians 5, 19 to wit. God was in Christ reconciling the world unto himself. God was in Christ. Why did God become a man? Our dominion was lost by man. It must be legally regained by man. First Corinthians 15 verse 21. For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead. For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. You say, well, I didn't vote for Adam. I don't think ought to be held responsible for his sin. You ought to be so grateful, dear friend, that God, who not only counts the human race guilty in Adam, also counts the human race by faith justified in Christ. I'm so grateful that I have in Jesus a redemption that Jesus did for me what I could never do for myself. And I had rather be a saved sinner than an innocent angel. In Adam all die, but in Christ shall all be made alive. Listen to this. Hebrews 2 verse 9, But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honor, that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man. The scars tell me that Jesus saves, that Jesus saves. When my first son was born, Steve, my pastor said to me, Adrian, you will understand something different now about the love of God. Before you have a child of your own, you think of the great love the Savior had when He died for us. But when you have a child of your own, you think of the love of the Father who gave His Son. That is so true. That is so true. For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son. God was in Christ. He was God, but He was man. As God, he was sinless, but as a man, he suffered because there needed to be a sinless substitute. Without shedding of blood is no remission. Think not only of the stars, but the scars of Christmas. Listen, Jesus came to earth that we might go to heaven. Jesus was born of a virgin that we might be born again. Jesus became the son of man that we might become the sons and the daughters of God. Jesus died that we might live. The scars tell us that as a man, Jesus suffered pain. The scars tell us that as a man, Jesus sympathizes. The scars tell us that as a man, Jesus saves. And hallelujah, he does. Now let me come to the conclusion of this message. And I want to lay several things upon your heart. Listen carefully now. Jesus had some scars. Jesus. And if you follow Jesus, so will you. God had only one son without sin, but he didn't have any son without suffering. Philippians 3 verse 10, that I may know him and the power of his resurrection and the fellowship of his suffering. If you think you're going to get out of this world unscarred, you're not going to do it. There's no fine print in the contract. And there is the suffering that comes with serving the Lord Jesus Christ. Galatians chapter 6 verse 17, the apostle Paul says, I bear in my body the scars of the Lord Jesus. Now Paul could say that literally because the lash had been laid upon his back. But he's using the word here stigmata. I bear the nail prints of In my body of the Lord Jesus Christ. May I tell you, friend, listen carefully now. Those of you who are going to a sedative rather than the Savior. Your scars may be your greatest ministry. What was it that caused Thomas to believe? Thomas said, except I see the scars, I'll not believe. Jesus said, all right, Thomas. Put your finger here. Put your finger here. Put your hand there. Do you know what a scar is? A scar is a wound that has healed. And when Thomas saw the scars, Thomas saw him crucified. But now Thomas sees he is raised, he is victorious, he is overcome. And Thomas believed. Did you know... that there are people who are going to believe in Jesus when they see your scars did you know that when you can testify that Jesus has healed me here are my wounds red and raw and bloody but Jesus has healed me I've seen it happen so many times as you know Joyce and I have a little boy in heaven when our son died To us, it was like a crucifixion. And deep in red was the wound. But we carried it to Jesus. And Jesus healed it. The first scripture that I saw after our son died, I never even noticed it in the Bible before. Blessed be God, the God of all comfort, the Father of all mercies, who comforteth us in all our tribulation, that we may be able to comfort others with the same comfort wherewith we ourselves are comforted of God. I've seen Joyce put her arms around mothers who've lost little ones and give comfort. You know how she could do it? With her scars. With her scars. With her wound that has been healed. Are you hurting today? Is there a pain? Is there a problem? Is there a heartache? Listen to me. Bring your wounds to Jesus. He understands. He cares. Bring your wounds to Jesus and use your scars for Jesus. Use your scars for Jesus. That may be your greatest testimony. Not that you've sailed through life without feeling any pain. Not that God has protected you as his little darling. But that God has been with you and we have not a high priest who cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities. But was in all points tempted like as we. Yet without sin. I want you now. In your mind. To imagine our risen Savior. I want you to see him on the throne of his glory. And I want you to see in his hands the print of the nails because he bears them for all eternity. And I want you to see those nail scarred hands reaching to you right now. And if you've never done it, would you not like to put your hand in that hand and say, save me, Lord Jesus. Thank you that you are the God man. Thank you that as a man, you suffered. As a man, you sympathize. And as a man, you save. Save me, Jesus. Pray it and mean it. I want to guide you in a prayer and in this prayer you can ask Christ to save you. And I promise you on the authority of the word of God that he will save you and he will keep you. Pray this prayer dear Jesus. Thank you that as a man you died on the cross for me. Though God of very God you did not have to suffer and yet you did. You chose to suffer because you love me. Thank you, Jesus. Now, Lord Jesus, I open my heart and I receive you by faith as my Lord and Savior. Save me, Jesus. Pray it in me. Did you ask him? Then pray this way. Thank you for doing it. Lord, if you just give me the strength, I'll make it public. I'll not be ashamed of you because you died for me. In your holy name. Amen. Amen.
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Well, if you prayed that prayer alongside Pastor Adrian Rogers, then know that the angels of heaven are rejoicing with you and we would love to share in that celebration. Please reach out to us at drjamesdobson.org and know that you prayed to make that decision to follow Christ. Simply fill out our contact form to send the message when you go to drjamesdobson.org. And if you'd like to learn more about the ministry of Pastor Adrian Rogers, Loveworth Finding, go to drjamesdobson.org forward slash family talk. Dr. Rogers has been with the Lord for many years now, but his legacy lives on in the Loveworth Finding ministry, and it's our privilege to have shared with you over the past couple of days a very special message that he delivered some time ago talking about the stars and scars of Christmas. Well, today is Christmas Day. It's the day that we celebrate the birth of our Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ, who gives us hope, who gives our lives meaning. And it's our prayer, from our family to yours, that you are experiencing, celebrating the joy of the Lord. If, for some reason, today is that first day in that walk, you've picked an excellent day to have a spiritual birthday, and we rejoice along with you. But if you've been walking with the Lord for many years, and perhaps that walk has seemed a little more tired, or dusty, or a little more bumpy than usual— Let this be the year that you allow God to re-encourage you, to reignite your faith, and to walk with Him in the newness of life that Jesus Christ paid the penalty for for you on the cross, burying your sin once and for all, raising you to newness of life, and celebrating our risen King who we wait for in joyous anticipation of His return. From our family to yours, Merry Christmas, God bless you, and thank you for listening to Dr. James Dobson's Family Talk, the voice you trust for the family you love.
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This has been a presentation of the Dr. James Dobson Family Institute.
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Here's today's Dr. Dobson Minute with Dr. James Dobson.
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It was on December 23rd, 1818, in the small Austrian village of Oberndorf, that Father Joseph Moore had begun preparing the music for the Christmas Eve service at his local church. He visualized shepherds in a field with stars lighting up the sky around them. He imagined a small stable outside of Bethlehem and the cries of a newborn filling the night air. All the while the words flowed from his pen. Early the next morning he brought the poem to his organist, Franz Gruber, and asked him to put a tune to it. A few hours later, the task was accomplished. And so it was on Christmas Eve, 1818, that Father Moore sang tenor and Franz Gruber sang bass as the tiny town of Oberndorf heard for the first time a simple new song. They called it Stille Nacht. You and I know it as Silent Night. For more information, visit drdobsonminute.org.
In this special Christmas episode of Family Talk, Dr. James Dobson pays tribute to the late Pastor Adrian Rogers, an influential preacher and a dear friend. Together, they uncover the profound nature of Jesus, the God-man, focusing on the symbolic significance of the stars and scars of Christmas. Through this touching sermon, you are invited to reflect on the duality of Christ's humanity and divinity as conveyed through his eternal scars, a testimony to his sacrifice and never-ending empathy towards us.
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Music
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Well, hello, everyone, and Merry Christmas to you all. I'm Dr. James Dobson, and I'm so happy you joined us today on this very special day. And it's a pleasure to have a chance to bring this program to you. It's a very special broadcast of Family Talk. Our guest is going to be one of our friends, the late Pastor Adrian Rogers. How I love that man. He was like a brother to me. He served on my board when I was president of Focus on the Family, and he had a great influence on us all. I mean, just his presence changed the character of our board. We still pray for his widow, Joyce, and their family. They're just wonderful people. Pastor Rogers was founder and president of a radio and TV ministry called Love Worth Finding. And he was also senior pastor of Bellevue Baptist Church in Memphis, Tennessee. And what you're going to hear today is a sermon that he preached at Bellevue, and it was later heard on Loveworth Finding. This is what we call a classic program, and I know that you're going to enjoy it. And the title that Dr. Rogers put on it was Stars and Scars of Christmas.
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This is Theology 101. Are you ready for the test? One question on the test. Is Jesus God or man? All right, the answer to that question is yes. He is the God-man. God in human flesh. The prophet Isaiah said, unto us a child is born, and unto us a son is given. When Isaiah said a child is born, he was speaking of his humanity. When he said a son is given... He was speaking of his deity. He is the God man. Now, as a child, he was born in Bethlehem. As God, he has ruled from eternity. He did not have his beginning, only his birth at Bethlehem. The star pointed the way to where the child was in the Christmas story. But there's a darker side to Christmas. Not only the stars, but the scars. Because as a man, he was born to die. As God, he died to For our sins. Can you think of a God with scars? You see the little baby there in the manger? And you see those little dimpled feet? Those little dimpled feet are going to be pierced with a hideous, cruel nail. You see those little chubby hands and those pink fingers? They will one day bear scars. Now the time for our scripture is this. Jesus has lived a sinless life. He has been falsely accused. He is butchered on a cruel Roman cross. He is put into a grave. And that grave is sealed with a stone. Yet on the third day, he rises. He comes out of that grave a living... victorious Savior. He has appeared to his disciples and he has shown himself alive. Thomas was not there when he first appeared. Eight days later, Jesus appears again. And here is the passage I'm reading. John chapter 20 and verse 24. But Thomas, one of the twelve called Didymus, was not with them when Jesus came. The other disciples therefore said unto him, We have seen the Lord. And he said unto them, Except I see in his hands the print of the nails. and put my finger into the print of the nails, and thrust my hand into his side, I will not believe. That is, I want to see if he was crucified and risen. I want to know it's him. The way I will know is when I see these scars in his hand and in his side. And after eight days again, his disciples were within and Thomas with them. Then came Jesus, the doors being shut, and stood in the midst. and said, Peace be unto you. Then saith he to Thomas, Reach hither thy finger, and behold my hands, and reach hither thy hand, and thrust it into my side, and be not faithless, but believing. And Thomas answered and said unto him, I love this part, My Lord and my God. Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed. Blessed are they who have not seen and yet have believed. And there, ladies and gentlemen, he's talking about you and me. Blessed are they who have not seen what Thomas saw, but have believed. Now, Thomas saw the scars and he said, my Lord and my God. Think of it. A God with scars. Now, I want you to consider with me the scars of the Lord Jesus. They are not incidental. They are so fundamental that Jesus carried those scars with him to heaven. Did you know that the only man-made thing in heaven are the scars of Jesus Christ? Jesus visited earth, and when he went back to heaven, he took some souvenirs of his visit with him. Those souvenirs are the scars in his hands... And the scar in his side. He has kept those scars as a lasting memorial of his humanity. Through all eternity. When Jesus comes again. One of the ways that we will know that it is the dear Savior of the many ways are the blessed scars. Put in your margin. Zechariah chapter 13 and verse 6. And one shall say unto him, what are these wounds in thine hands? And he shall answer, those with which I was wounded in the house of my friends. When he comes again. When he comes again, he will bear those blessed scars. So I want us to think about the stars and the scars of Christmas. And the three things as we think about God in human flesh that I want you to learn about the scars of the Lord Jesus Christ. Number one, the scars tell us that as a man, Jesus suffered. Now, it's very important that you understand this, that as a man, Jesus suffered. In John chapter 20, verse 17, Jesus invited Thomas to examine those scars. They were a brute testimony to the fact that Jesus indeed was pierced with those hideous nails. There's a great problem in the world today. when you try to testify about god the problem is not primarily science the problem is primarily history the problem is primarily suffering and people will ask you again and again how can you believe in a god if there be a god who allows so much suffering and this causes great doubt because here's the way the human mind works well if god is love And God is all powerful. Why does God allow so much suffering? And so they think, well, perhaps he is a God of infinite love, but he has no power. Therefore, he is a weak God. Or else he is all powerful, but he has no love. And so he is a cruel God. Or perhaps he has no power and no love. So he is no God at all. That's the way people think. There's a greater question, not why do men suffer. Here's the great question. Why does God suffer? Now, you want a question. Friend, the question is not why do we as humans suffer, but those scars tell us that God in human flesh suffered. Isaiah 53, verse 3, speaking of Jesus, He is despised and rejected of men, a man of sorrows and acquainted with grief. Now, I remind you, He was God in human flesh, and He suffered. Again, the Bible says in Isaiah chapter 63 and verse 9, in all their affliction, talking about us, he was afflicted. And not only did he suffer when he was here, but I have some information for you. God still suffers. God in His glory suffers. You say, how could God suffer? Well, let me give you a verse. Ephesians chapter 4, verse 30. The Bible says, Have you ever been grieved? Grief is a form of emotional suffering. God in heaven still suffers. God... grieves now you can understand this does a father suffer when he has a wayward son that's what the story of the prodigal son is all about that god the father suffers because he has children away from him grieve is a love word you can only grieve somebody who loves you your lawnmower may vex you Your children will grieve you. Amen. Because you love them. By the way, that verse in Ephesians chapter 4 verse 30 is a great verse to teach the personality of the Holy Spirit. Our Jehovah's Witnesses tell us that the Holy Spirit is not a person. He is just an influence from God. Well, you can't grieve an influence. Only a person can be grieved. And the only person who can be grieved is someone who loves you. Grieve is a love word. God still suffers. I want to ask you a question. Does the head suffer when the body feels pain? Of course it does. Christ is the head of the church. We're his body. When you suffer, our Lord suffers. He's touched with the feeling of your infirmity. When Saul was persecuting the church, Jesus appeared to Saul and said, Saul, Saul, why persecutest thou me? He could have said, well, I'm not persecuting you. I'm persecuting these Christians. But friend, when a Christian is persecuted, Jesus is persecuted. When the body hurts, the head hurts. We are the bride. Jesus is the groom. If the bride is unfaithful to the groom, would not the groom grieve? When the church is unfaithful to the Lord Jesus Christ, is not his heart broken? Jesus suffers as a man. He suffered. The scars tell us. The scars tell us that God has suffered. Now, here's a big question. Why? Why would God Almighty, who could do anything, whatever He wants, whenever He wants, why would He choose to suffer? Second point. Not only do the scars of Jesus tell us that as a man He suffered, But the scars of Jesus tell us that as a man, Jesus sympathizes. That Jesus understands. Nobody really knows the hurt. Nobody really knows the pain in a human heart except Jesus. But Jesus really does suffer. When we go off on a trip somewhere, Joyce will pick up some trinkets somewhere. And trinkets is mostly what they are. They're souvenirs. Why do we buy souvenirs when we go somewhere? Well, there's sort of a reminder, I have been there. I have been there. Jesus, when he went to heaven, brought with him to heaven some souvenirs from earth. And those souvenirs are the scars that remain in his hands. And what do those souvenirs of earth tell us? That he has been there, he has felt, and he understands our pain. Put down now Hebrews chapter 2, verses 17 and 18. Wherefore, in all things, it behooved him to be made like unto his brethren. The him is Jesus. The brethren, that's us. He's made like us. That he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God. to make reconciliation for the sins of the people. For in that he himself hath suffered, underscore that, he himself hath suffered being tempted, that means being tested. He is able to succor, S-U-C-C-O-R, which means to help them that are tempted. Jesus said, when you suffer, I suffer. And not only do I suffer, but because I suffer, I understand. Hebrews chapter 4, verse 15. For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities, but was in all points tested like as we are yet without sin. He's touched. He knows. He cares. He feels. He understands. And he loves. Dr. Paul Brandt. was a missionary, a great surgeon, who spent a lot of time ministering to lepers in leper colonies. And Dr. Brand talked about the horrible sin of leprosy. And he said one of the debilitating sins of leprosy is that it removes the ability of the human body to feel pain. And then here's what Dr. Paul Brand said, and I copied it down for you. Listen to what this great doctor said. He said, if I had the power to eliminate pain, I would not exercise that right. Pain's value is too great. Notice, pain's value. Rather, I would lend all of my energies in doing all that I can to help when the pain turns to suffering. I want to tell you something. Our Lord suffered and our Lord sympathizes. And the pain that he allows us to have is really proof of his love. The pain that he allows us to have is proof of his love. After Adam and Eve sinned in the Garden of Eden, God said, cursed is the ground. Now listen to this. For your sake. He didn't say for your punishment. but for your welfare. For your sake, thorns and thistles will it bring forth to you. God put a curse on the environment in which we live. Because the worst thing could happen to us would be for us to have the sickness, the infection of sin, and to feel no pain. There is the protecting purpose of pain. When you and I walk, we stand on one foot, then on another. When we sit, we shift our weight around. But a leper doesn't do that. Dr. Brand said that a leper doesn't limp when his leg is hurt because he feels no pain. So he walks on the wound. Injured legs never get any rest. When you turn your ankle... If your body is healthy, the nerves immediately order your body to take the weight off of that ankle. It happens so fast, it'll happen just like that. I was walking down a mountainside with my bride, Joyce. It was a beautiful day, a beautiful mountain, and suddenly Joyce was on the ground. Just like that. What had happened, Joyce had turned her ankle. And when she turned her ankle, the nerves in her body caused this muscle to relax and she went down just like that. Now the reason for that was to protect her leg, that she would not walk on that twisted and stretched tendon. Thankfully, before long, she was feeling good again and could walk. Pain has a protecting purpose. Thank God for pain. It tells us something is wrong. Pain has a unifying purpose. It is pain that draws us together. Your whole body comes to the aid of a suffering member. You ever hit your thumb with a hammer when putting up a picture for your wife on the wall? I'm talking about one of those that turns the thumb black. I know what you did. You grabbed it with this hand. The second thing you did, you stuck it in your mouth and sucked on it. The third thing you did is a little dance. Now, why did you do that? What do your knees have to do with your thumb? I don't know, but you've got to do that dance. Friend, pain has a unifying factor. Do you know what unifies a church? Suffering. Do you know what brings people together? Suffering. The Bible says when one member suffers, all members suffer with it. Dr. Brand said, I can tell the health of a human body by its reaction to pain. If it doesn't react to pain, there is something wrong. You can tell the health of a church by its reaction to pain. How much does a church care for the homeless, the sick, those with broken hearts and broken hopes and broken homes? A church is unified by pain. Pain has a protecting purpose. Pain has a unifying purpose. And pain has a correcting purpose. Dr. Brand said that the lepers... who would smoke cigarettes, sometimes would smoke the cigarette right on down until the fire in the cigarette would burn their fingers. And they'd continue to smoke and burn the flesh because they could feel no pain. God allows pain to protect us. And if it weren't for the pain, we would never know that we're being hurt. You put your hand on a hot stove and there's a message that goes immediately to your brain and says, it's hot down here. And the brain says, well, move. And it moves just like that. Now, you don't realize you're doing all that thinking, but you're doing that. Because that pain says that you need to protect yourself. Pain comes in all kinds of forms. There's physical pain. There is emotional pain. There is spiritual pain. And Americans want to kill pain at any cost. That's the reason we have so many sedatives. That's the reason kids get on drugs. To kill the pain. That's the reason some adults are on drugs. To kill the pain. Now there is a legitimate use of medicine. But many are trying to dull their sensibilities. They don't get along with their parents and they turn to drugs. And I want to tell you when kids get on drugs they really don't care what their parents think. They are in another world. Some turn to alcohol. And it's kind of pathetic to see adults addicted to alcohol criticizing young people addicted to drugs. Why do people turn to alcohol so many times? To kill the pain. A man's drunk. He says, I'm feeling no pain. He says, I'm going to drown my troubles. Well, his troubles can swim. The Japanese have a proverb, first the man takes a drink, then the drink takes a drink, and then the drink takes the man. Why do we do this? Why do people have an affair? Why do they commit adultery? Many times, trying to kill the pain of insecurity and loneliness. One of the biggest sedatives that we have today is television. People watch television because they can't face themselves and they live in a make-believe world. The problem is that many people take a sedative when they need a savior. The pain is to tell us that something is wrong. Now, Jesus gives us peace and joy, not primarily to remove the pain. That'll be done at the rapture. But to help us to endure the pain. Now when we see scars in the hands of Bethlehem's babe. They are a testimony to his humanity. A God with scars. They tell us as God he suffered. As man, he suffered. As God, he sympathizes. As man, he sympathizes. He knows how we feel. He understands. And Jesus will hear the cries of a blind beggar before he hears the cries of a proud Pharisee. Now, here's the third thing. Not only do the scars of Jesus tell us that as a man Jesus suffered, and not only do they tell us that as a man Jesus sympathizes, but the scars of Jesus tell us as a man Jesus saves. That is so important that you understand this. Why was he nailed to that hellish cross? Why did he step out of glory? Why did he allow himself to be pierced? Why were those nails put into his quivering hands and to those precious feet? Why? Well, the Bible says without shedding of blood is no remission of sin.
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Well, what a powerful image of Christ's sacrifice. Today here on Dr. James Dobson's Family Talk, we've been listening to a special presentation recorded several years ago by the late Pastor Adrian Rogers called The Stars and Scars of Christmas. Now, we'll hear part two of this presentation coming up tomorrow on Christmas Day. But if you'd like to learn more about the legacy that's carrying Pastor Rogers' ministry forward, we've got a link at drjamesdobson.org forward slash family talk, where you can learn more about the ministry of Dr. Adrian Rogers and Loveworth Finding is the name of the ministry. In addition, if you'd like to hear this program again in its entirety, maybe share it with a friend, you can do so at drjamesdobson.org forward slash Family Talk. You can also access all of our programming when you use the Family Talk app. So regardless of how you hear the broadcast, Make sure that you hear and spend some time meditating over the stars and scars of Christmas and these powerful words of exhortation and comfort from Pastor Adrian Rogers. You know, your partnership means everything to us here at Family Talk. We're a listener supported broadcast ministry. We rely on friends like you to help us continue broadcasting biblical truth. Amen. Amen. Amen. Amen. You can also call us at 877-732-6825. Or you can send us a letter through the mail. Send us a Christmas card. It's not too late for that. Write to Dr. James Dobson's Family Talk. Post Office Box 39000, Colorado Springs, Colorado. The zip code 80949. Once again, our ministry mailing address is Dr. James Dobson's Family Talk. Or if it's easier, just put JDFI for short. P.O. Box 39000. Colorado Springs, Colorado, the zip code 80949. Well, I'm Roger Marsh, wishing you and your family a wonderful Christmas Eve and looking ahead to a joyous Christmas Day celebration. Be sure to join us again next time for part two of a very moving message from Pastor Adrian Rogers, taking a look at the stars and scars of Christmas. That's coming up here next time right here on Dr. James Dobson's Family Talk, the voice you trust for the family you love. From our family to yours, Merry Christmas. This has been a presentation of the Dr. James Dobson Family Institute
In this insightful episode of Family Talk, Dr. James Dobson and Roger Marsh are joined by author and radio host Chris Fabry for a unique exploration of timeless themes reimagined for today's listeners. Through a discussion centered around 'A Marriage Carol,' a poignant reinterpretation of Charles Dickens' beloved classic, the show delves into the struggles and redemptive power of love within a faltering marriage. As they highlight the parallels between the Christmas season and the hope of renewal, the episode vividly illustrates the potential for second chances in relationships, offering guidance and encouragement to couples seeking to rediscover their connection.
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Welcome everyone to Family Talk. It's a ministry of the James Dobson Family Institute, supported by listeners just like you. I'm Dr. James Dobson, and I'm thrilled that you've joined us.
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Well, welcome to Family Talk, the broadcast division of the Dr. James Dobson Family Institute. I'm Roger Marsh, and on today's program, we're going to do something unique. We're going to take a look at a timeless classic, Charles Dickens' A Christmas Carol, through the lens of Scripture, and what if the characters involved weren't necessarily old, miserable Ebenezer Scrooge, but a couple whose marriage had gone off the rails, and now they were wondering... Was there an opportunity for them to have a second chance to rebuild their marriage? You know, second chance is hope, remembering why we celebrate. It's so easy to get caught up in the holiday rush that we sometimes forget to pause and reflect on the true meaning of Christmas, and that is the birth of Jesus Christ. Doctor, I know that today's program is going to help a lot of people focus on those second chances that Christmas reminds us of.
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We do, and we do every year. And that's why I love Christmas. We can take great joy in the celebration of this time of year. But this is also a really good time to stop and assess how we're treating people in our family and outside our family and how we're investing in those relationships. And to help us do this, I'm very pleased to welcome my dear friend Chris Fabry to these Family Talk microphones today. Welcome, Chris.
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Oh, it's great to talk with you.
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Well, Chris Fabry is... is no stranger to radio. He's the host of the award-winning radio broadcast, Chris Fabry Live. He's also the very talented author of more than 60 books, and one of which we're going to be talking about today. It's called A Marriage Carol. It's a fictional piece which takes a twist on the famous classic A Christmas Carol by Charles Dickens. Now, Chris, on the dedication page of the book, you and Gary Chapman, with whom you co-authored this book, say that this story is for, and I quote, the wounded, cold, and all who struggle. May this story bring warmth, life, and above all, hope. Explain what you meant by that. Wow.
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Well, that is something that Dr. Chapman and I, Dr. Gary Chapman, as you know, five love languages, we wanted to do with this story. And that is reach into the hearts of people who are just at the end. You know, they've struggled for so long. They've gone on for years and years in a marriage that's been cold and dead. And they just want to walk away from it. Um, also for people who, you know, are, are married and really committed and yet they've lost some of that spark, uh, with their, their spouse. So anybody who's listening today who feels that way, um, Our hope is that this little story and we're going to hear a dramatization of it in just a moment. But this little story would kind of creep in around your heart, just like the story that Nathan told David, you know, when David sinned with Bathsheba. Yes. And the prophet came to the king. The prophet chose not to point his finger and say, you did wrong. He told him a story about this little lamb and a little landowner and the person who had a lot of cattle and a lot of sheep. And David was incensed by this. And then Nathan said, you know, this story, this is you. So I'm hoping that this story will be a mirror for many people who are listening today. That's the kind of feedback that we're getting, that people are saying, how did you read my email? Or, you know, have you been looking at my Facebook? Because it's reality. What I wanted to do is use marriage past, present, and show both the future ahead, if you stay on this road that you're on, Or a vision of the future that might be there that you have never even considered that God may give you. There are some people who are listening to us who have gone on Facebook and they found this person that they dated 20 years ago. And they say, man, if I had made that right choice back there, I wouldn't be married to this dolt today. You know, I would I would be happy today. I say that inside there is something good in that desire to have happiness and a depth to your marriage. It's the wrong thing to go to the Facebook page. What is right is to lean into that other person and to allow God to form this vision for you, just like marriage. I'll go back to the biblical example, Bartimaeus on the side of the road who's blind, who says, you know, Lord, help me to see. I think God wants to give us that same kind of vision for our marriages. He wants to drop the scales from our eyes. And right now there's just so much snow built up. We're in this blizzard and we can't see it. And we just want to get warm and get away. Yeah. But if you are in that marriage where you say, I'm just so tired and I cannot take another footstep toward this other person over here today. I want you to open your mind, open your heart to the possibility that God may want to take something that is dead right now, even in your own heart. and make it a lie. Because Dr. Chapman and I both believe that the best chance you have of happiness long-term in your marriage is the person that you've said, I do to, not somebody else. It's that person right now.
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Wouldn't it please you if the Lord would use this little book that you and Gary have written to rekindle love within the hearts and minds of the couple out there that's already given up on love?
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That's our prayer. It has been the prayer when I started the book and as Gary and I work through it. And I tell you, I have never had the sense of mission that I've had for a little tiny little 20,000 word story that might slip in the door of someone's heart and turn it around toward that spouse. And I know that's what you're all about. It's what you've always been about, to turn that heart toward your family. Yeah.
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Well, this is a beautiful little book. It's artistically appealing, and I do hope that our listeners will get a copy of it. In the meantime, and to kind of whet their appetites, however, set this up for us. We're going to play a few scenes from the drama. We can't include it all, but Moody Radio has produced this and has allowed us to share some of the scenes. Set it up for us, will you? What's this story about?
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Jacob and Marley have been married 20 years. It's their 20th anniversary. They are going to the lawyer's office to sign the papers to end their marriage. They've already made these decisions. He makes this decision, Jacob does, to go over the pass and they get into an accident. And that's where you see all of this hard heartedness, this coldness come out in Marley's life as then she has to try to find her husband. Hey, Chris, I hope you sell a million copies, man. Well, Merry Christmas. Thanks so much for having me today.
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Oh, you're freezing. Quick, put this afghan around you.
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Standing before me was an older man who brought me into the warmth of the room. What were you doing out there?
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It was an accident. I can't find my husband. He didn't come here, did he?
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No, we haven't had any visitors with the store. I suspect he went to look for help or a cell signal. He's probably worried about you. Now, come on over to the fire here. That's it. We'll get you warm and cozy. I'll be right back with something to warm you up on the inside. Our teacup Yorkshire Terrier will keep you company.
SPEAKER 06 :
The smell of the tea brought back memories I didn't want to dredge up. Fights with Jacob, arguments and outbursts from me, and the silence of a man resigned to something other than love. Bookshelves flanked the fireplace. There were pictures as well of smiling couples standing together, posing for the camera. A coffee table held a single candle, a Bible, and a purple book underneath. On the hearth were fireplace utensils. Beside them was a long-handled pot with two other smaller pots inside with the same size handles. They were gold and looked barely used. I was intrigued and might have gotten up for a closer look, but the door opened and Jay walked in.
SPEAKER 04 :
Smells pretty good, doesn't it? Have some three-bean chili cooking. It'll be ready in a little bit.
SPEAKER 06 :
What about Jacob?
SPEAKER 04 :
I found your car, but no sign of Jacob. Oh, no. I checked with the neighbors, too. It's nasty on the roads. Almost got stuck, even though I have four-wheel drive. You know, maybe he got a ride down the hill. I left a note on the front seat telling him where you are. I put the emergency flashes on, too. But the battery is pretty weak.
SPEAKER 06 :
Thank you. I suppose that's all we can do now.
SPEAKER 04 :
Other than pray.
SPEAKER 06 :
The old man disappeared into the kitchen and returned with a steaming bowl of chili with cornbread that tasted so sweet it melted in my mouth. He headed upstairs with another bowl, and Roo met him at the top, wagging his tail. I had finished my bowl when he returned.
SPEAKER 04 :
Ooh, hey, care for another bowl?
SPEAKER 06 :
No, I think I'm full. But that was delicious. Thank you so much.
SPEAKER 04 :
You're welcome.
SPEAKER 06 :
So, tell me, who else is here?
SPEAKER 04 :
No one's here but my wife and me. She's resting upstairs. Oh, is something wrong with her? Nothing time and life haven't done. And what brought you out to these parts?
SPEAKER 06 :
We were... We were on our way to an attorney's office to sign divorce papers.
SPEAKER 04 :
You've been planning this long, or?
SPEAKER 06 :
I told him more about us. More than I wanted. But it just seemed to spill out.
SPEAKER 04 :
Oh, that's a lot of years to be married. Yeah. What's the main reason for the divorce? Has Jacob abused you in some way?
SPEAKER 06 :
Oh, no. No, there's no abuse.
SPEAKER 04 :
Is there another woman?
SPEAKER 06 :
think so his other woman is his work oh well have you tried counseling yeah a few times a pastor once a psychologist went to a marriage seminar a few years ago have you tried books oh look look let me tell you about the books i've read okay they're stacked on my nightstand do not give me another book look i've tried everything even called a radio program once asking for advice nothing works We're just not right for each other.
SPEAKER 04 :
But you were at some point.
SPEAKER 06 :
Well, yeah, in the beginning, sure. Anyone can stay in love at the beginning, I think. But then through the years and with the kids, we just grew apart. He threw himself into his work and his hobbies, and my heart turned toward the children.
SPEAKER 04 :
And here you are 20 years later, strangers. Wow. Strangers.
SPEAKER 06 :
Strangers. Yeah, exactly. I told him everything. And Jay just sat there, listening attentively.
SPEAKER 04 :
And you mentioned a pastor. What about your spiritual life?
SPEAKER 06 :
You know, I know it's not true, but it almost feels like I don't have any right to talk to God.
SPEAKER 04 :
Why is that?
SPEAKER 06 :
Well, I know it's a sin to get a divorce. That's how I was raised.
SPEAKER 04 :
And once God has ticked off at you, he's not going to listen to your prayers, so... Well, it's true that God hates divorce because of the pain and heartache it creates, but that doesn't mean you shouldn't talk with him. He's a forgiving God.
SPEAKER 06 :
Hmm. You sound like a pastor.
SPEAKER 04 :
I guess in a way I am. Years ago, this place was a funeral home. Didn't get much business way out here, so they sold it. And we turned it into a retreat center for struggling couples. Yeah, people who've given up for those who just want to grow closer. From where I sit, I'd say you were allowed this divine appointment for a purpose.
SPEAKER 06 :
No, no. Look, we've made up our minds, okay? There's no hope left.
SPEAKER 04 :
Yeah, I've heard that a few times over the years. And I'd like to suggest something about hope. Why don't you and your husband hold on to the hope I have for you?
SPEAKER 06 :
How can you say that? You don't even know us.
SPEAKER 04 :
I'm going on experience. Most people don't want to throw away their marriage. Working together for 20 years and giving a lot of money to lawyers? It doesn't make sense.
SPEAKER 06 :
Look, I know I'm not happy where I am, and neither is Jacob. We're supposed to love each other. We're supposed to complete each other. Anyway, I think God abandoned our marriage a long time ago. I'm just following him out the door.
SPEAKER 04 :
Maybe God has been closer than you know. Oh, come on. Even bringing you here suggests to me that there's still hope.
SPEAKER 06 :
Look, I don't know how many ways I can say this. It's over. He's picked out his apartment. I get the house and the van and we share custody of the kids. 20 years ago tonight, we started this journey and now it's about to end. As we sat talking, water filled my eyes, and I felt something quiver inside. What if I do give it a chance? What if I open up enough to consider there could be hope? Would that be enough? I wondered, then bravely asked... All right, I'm curious. How does it work? The pots, I mean.
SPEAKER 04 :
Good, good. Step outside, gather up some snow in this. Here, you scoop it with your hands into the cup, then you tap it down, get as much as you can, and then you bring it to me.
SPEAKER 06 :
I didn't have to go far to scoop the snow, and as quickly as I did, the act felt like foolishness. Why had I trusted this old man? Why had I let my heart be moved by his kind words or think there could be any kind of hope? I hurried inside.
SPEAKER 04 :
Oh, good work. Now, take the pan and put the snow inside. And hold it over the fire.
SPEAKER 06 :
Wait, that's it? I'm supposed to melt snow and it's going to change my life? Stir the melting snow. Well, just try. Okay, all right. You sure I don't have to click my heels and say there's no place like home?
SPEAKER 04 :
Yeah, that's a good one.
SPEAKER 06 :
I held the pot over the fire, and as I stirred, a faint echo of music floated upward. Steam rose and swirled in the fireplace, hovering under the flue, and I felt myself slipping, swaying. And in one uncontrolled moment, the scene simply cloaked me, and I was wholly taken in by the experience. Pictures from the past, images of children laughing. Moments captured and frozen in time cascaded around me like snow, like a vast collage of my life. A dog I had known as a child. Buttered popcorn spilled at a theater. My best friend and me eating muffins late at night. Me crying through our golden pond. There he is, I said breathlessly. There was my husband. A young man again. Hair much darker and fuller. No receding hairline. Swarthy and full of life, and a smile that made my heart ache. The years had chipped away at his smile. Many long years had passed since the sight of him had stirred anything deep within me.
SPEAKER 04 :
Marley, Marley, I missed you.
SPEAKER 06 :
He looked so much younger, and so did I. Thinner, too. But we just had breakfast together this morning, Jacob.
SPEAKER 04 :
Ah, exactly. It's been too long.
SPEAKER 06 :
When I turned back to the happy scene, a misty vapor swung me and I walked through it searching for our former life. I found us walking near a familiar lake on a moonless summer night. He was about to propose to me. I wanted to scream, to yell, caution, to stop the events about to unfold. The giving of the ring, down on one knee, tears of happiness, and another long embrace that melted into a kiss so passionate, I had to turn away. When I looked again, we had moved from lake shadows to candlelight in the little church where we were married. The gown, the smooth skin, the trim figures underneath the dress and tux, and the voice of our pastor charging us to love until death do us part. Jacob had written his own vows. His deep, resonant voice cut through time, and with emotion he said,
SPEAKER 04 :
Your love has captured my heart. As long as it beats in my chest, I pledge to let nothing come between the love we will share in the years ahead. For it will take death's cold embrace to separate us.
SPEAKER 06 :
My eyes shut tight. We had loved until death. Unfortunately, it was love that died. The next scene was the arrival of our oldest, Becca. I had said some awful things to my husband during that delivery. He just smiled and forgave me without question. As I watched, the rush of memory aroused an unwelcome internal conflict. I didn't want to be drawn to him, but I was, particularly when I saw his wonderment at tiny fingers and toes and drank in the wonder of a newborn. Look at her. She's so perfect. She's amazing.
SPEAKER 04 :
Like her mother.
SPEAKER 06 :
Two people united around a shared infant. He even changed diapers, much to my surprise, and never complained about my nesting and the shuffling of furniture and the crib I returned three times in exchange because it just wasn't right for the room. But the scene changed again. Had he really been that thoughtful? The warmth and noise of Christmas past quickly faded, and in a blink, Becca was nearly grown. We were in the car, heading to soccer practice.
SPEAKER 07 :
Mom, why do you and Dad fight so much?
SPEAKER 06 :
Oh, Becca, honey, we don't really fight. We just disagree about a lot of things.
SPEAKER 07 :
No, you fight, and you don't make up. It's like a tea cuddle that's always ready to boil any time the heat's turned up.
SPEAKER 06 :
The scene changed again. We were sitting in a large church with a few hundred couples, listening to a man talk about going deeper in our marriage. I sat beside Jacob and I thought he was uninterested in our marriage, at making it work. But when I looked more closely, there was something written in his conference notebook. I strained to see it at the bottom of the page, but he closed it quickly. The scene transitioned one more time to the very afternoon of the present day. We were saying goodbye to the children. David held on tightly to me and I choked back the tears as I heard myself tell how soon we would be home. The door closed and the three children went to the window to watch us.
SPEAKER 07 :
Where are they going? Probably more Christmas shopping. Yeah, probably more shopping. It's okay.
SPEAKER 06 :
Becca's face was the last thing I saw as the mist engulfed the scene. Drifting, floating, swirling like vapor rising, the mist parted and I saw the empty pot over the fire. I was too stunned to speak.
SPEAKER 01 :
Certainly an interesting way of looking at marriage through the lens of Scripture and a reworking of Charles Dickens' classic, A Christmas Carol. Today here on Dr. James Dobson's Family Talk, we've been listening to a portion of this dramatization based on a book written by Dr. Gary Chapman and our guest today, Chris Fabry. We've titled today's program, A Marriage Carol. And we encourage you to go to drjamesdobson.org forward slash family talk, where you can find the complete drama there. That's drjamesdobson.org forward slash family talk. Now, as we think about the Christmas season and what it means to so many different people, Of course, Dr. Dobson has written a special newsletter for Christmas, and if you'd like to read it, you can go to drjamesdobson.org. It's right there on our landing page. And we encourage you also, as you are reading through this newsletter and wondering, wow, I'd really like to receive that each and every month when Dr. writes his newsletter, well, you can sign up for a free subscription to the Dr. James Dobson newsletter. It comes your way the first of every month. and go to drjamesdobson.org forward slash newsletter, and you can sign up to start receiving your free monthly newsletter from Dr. James Dobson and Family Talk. Well, today is the day before Christmas Eve. Of course, Christmas is on the hearts and minds of just about everybody all across the country. And as we conclude today's special edition of Family Talk, Dr. Dobson has a closing thought to share with us. Doctor?
SPEAKER 02 :
Dear friends, Merry Christmas to our beloved friends in Christ. How quickly we have careened through the past 12 months, bringing us again to this blessed time of the year. In that spirit, I wish we could drop by for a neighborly visit with each of our friends and supporters. We would bring a basket of home baked goodies and sip a cup of apple cider in front of your warm fire. Perhaps that world does not exist anymore, but I refuse to believe that it's gone. Even in the Russian hubbub of everyday living, I'm convinced that people still care about each other and want to link arms in Christian fellowship. May we never get too busy to reach out to one another, especially during what has been called the lonely season. Is there someone in your neck of the woods who needs a loving call or a Would an assortment of groceries and a warm note help her get through the expensive holidays? Is there a member of your family with whom you have had severe conflict this year? Wouldn't this be a great time to call and say, I just wanted to tell you that I love you and I'm sorry if I disappointed or hurt you. After all, isn't that what the Prince of Peace came to teach us? From Shirley and me and all of us at Family Talk, we wish you a wonderful Christmas season and join you in celebrating the birth of the Savior. For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given, and the government shall be upon his shoulder, and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counselor, the Mighty God, the Everlasting Father, the Prince of Peace. Isaiah 9, 6. Jim and Shirley.
SPEAKER 01 :
Well, amen and amen to that, Doctor. Thank you for sharing those thoughts with us to put our focus where it needs to be, reaching out to the lonely, mending fences, building bridges, strengthening families here at Christmastime. Again, if you'd like to start receiving Dr. Dobson's free monthly newsletter, just go to drjamesdobson.org forward slash newsletters, or you can click on the newsletter button right on the homepage at drjamesdobson.org. And now for Dr. Dobson, his wife, Shirley, and all of us here at the JDFI, I'm Roger Marsh. Thanks so much for listening. Be sure to join us again tomorrow for another edition of Dr. James Dobson's Family Talk, the voice you trust for the family you love. This has been a presentation of the Dr. James Dobson Family Institute.
Discover the powerful message of Pastor Paul Blair as he encourages believers to follow Jesus Christ in every dimension of their lives. This episode explores how to truly live by faith, dismantling the common notion of faith as a mere profession and transforming it into a proactive lifestyle that prioritizes obedience to God's commandments. Through scriptural insights and personal anecdotes, Pastor Blair inspires listeners to navigate life with a biblical worldview, making every decision under the guiding principles of Jesus' teachings, from family commitments to business ethics.
SPEAKER 02 :
Welcome everyone to Family Talk. It's a ministry of the James Dobson Family Institute supported by listeners just like you. I'm Dr. James Dobson and I'm thrilled that you've joined us.
SPEAKER 01 :
Well, welcome to Family Talk, the broadcast ministry of the Dr. James Dobson Family Institute. I'm Roger Marsh, and today we're continuing a powerful presentation from Pastor Paul Blair, recorded right here in Colorado Springs. And by the way, if you missed part one yesterday on the broadcast, You can catch up by using the Family Talk app or by going to drjamesdobson.org forward slash Family Talk. Now, the program you're about to hear is part of our 2024 Best of Broadcast Collection. And remember, you have a special opportunity now to reserve your copy and to have your ministry gift doubled at the same time. Go to drjamesdobson.org forward slash Family Talk. Any donation you make between now and December 31st will be doubled thanks to some special friends of our ministry who put up a special matching grant. Now, when you make that donation, please be sure to also ask for the 2024 Best of Broadcast CD Collection. It's yours as our way of thanking you for a gift of any amount in support of our ministry. So make the donation, ask about the Best of Broadcast set, and have your impact doubled. Such a great opportunity. Again, you'll find more information on that at drjamesdobson.org. Now to today's program, a continuation of a powerful presentation from Pastor Paul Blair. Pastor Blair's journey is truly remarkable. Before answering God's call to ministry, he protected quarterbacks as an offensive tackle for the Chicago Bears and the NFL. But his spiritual foundation was laid much earlier. He's a pastor's son who gave his heart to Christ at the tender age of six. Today, he's following in his father's footsteps, serving as the senior pastor of Fairview Baptist Church in Oklahoma. His passion for revival led him to found two vital organizations, Reclaiming America for Christ and the Liberty Pastors Network, both dedicated to restoring biblical values in our nation. Now, last time, Pastor Blair challenged us to view faith as our ancestors did, not just a Sunday morning ritual, but a force that transforms every aspect of life. Today, Pastor Blair will show us practical ways to live out biblical values in our homes, our workplaces, and our communities. And now, let's join Pastor Paul Blair for the conclusion of this powerful message on today's edition of Family Talk.
SPEAKER 02 :
Ladies and gentlemen, God is not impressed with how pretty we look on Sunday mornings. God wants to see the reality of our love for him with our obedience. Remember what Jesus said, if you love me, keep my commandments, with our obedience and following him 168 hours out of the week. That's 24-7. Now, it's what James was emphasizing. You go ahead and talk about your faith here. Let me show you my faith. Now, here's where our pastor's have that come to Jesus moment. The Great Commission tells us to go into all the world and make disciples. Doesn't say make church members. Doesn't say make professors of faith. Doesn't say make people repeat the sinner's prayer. By the way, I grew up Southern Baptist and Independent Baptist. I was weaned. I could give you the Roman road before I could say Jack and Jill. So I'm not decrying the importance of these, but that's not what we've been called to do. We've been called to make disciples. And what do we do? How do we make a disciple? We teach that convert to observe all things whatsoever the Lord has commanded us. Now, folks, Ephesians, we will often misappropriate, Christians often misappropriate verses that really weren't intended for us. We have books of devotionals where God made a promise to David and we take it because it sounds good and it's encouraging. We'll put it in a little something and we'll apply it to us. Sometimes that's good. Sometimes it's really not a correct or exegesis of scripture. But understand that Ephesians is clearly written to the New Testament church. So everything here is directly to us. And my responsibility as a pastor is, one, I'm supposed to be an evangelist. Boy, you better believe it. In fact, I have a little booklet if any of you want it. It's a wonderful book. We've had great success with this in college campuses. Just 24 pages. It's a heavy track. Heavily influenced. In fact, Frank Turek did the editing for me. Frank Turek, Josh McDowell, but it's called Not Blind Faith. Verifiable evidence that God exists and rose from the dead. We have found this to be a real plus. Hey, we are huge on evangelism. I required my church members about a month ago to write out their testimonies. I wanted a copy of it. Reason being is I wanted them to consider whether they actually had one. And if they didn't, then we needed to talk. But evangelism, of course, what does it profit a man if he should gain the whole world but lose his own soul? But notice, we're also called to pastor. You know what that word means? Shepherd. I want to protect my flock. You know what? I want to have strong, healthy families. I want the men in our church to have good jobs where they can provide for their wives and children. I want them to be free from illness. And then notice the last one, teachers. What is that? To make disciples. That's what we are called to do as pastors for the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ. Now, for those who say, and I've heard many people say, what about my pastor? My pastor says, well, I just preached the gospel. Well, I know what he's referencing. He's referencing the apostle Paul, 1 Corinthians 15, verses one through eight, but let me point out a couple of things here to you. The missionary, the apostle Paul, knew a little bit about preaching the gospel. Consider the subjects that Paul also talked about in discipling these new congregations as he was teaching from what we would call the Old Testament. And he would write epistles or letters answering questions of faith and practice as now you had Jews and Gentiles synagoguing together throughout the known world at the time, worshiping the God of Israel and his Messiah. You know, for a Gentile coming in with a bacon sandwich, well, that was offensive to some of the Jews. And so they didn't understand because they really hadn't interacted great. So that's what they were dealing with at these epistles. But look at everything that Paul dealt with. Obviously, evangelism. Jesus of Nazareth is the promised Messiah. But he also talked about proper government. Paul talked about taxes. He talked about proper sexuality. He taught about sexual sin. homosexual sin, marriage, circumcision, church discipline, work and work ethic, integrity as business owners, charity, church organization, care for widows and orphans, handling disputes in the congregation, pride, humility, and forgiveness, gossip, cultural issues such as dress, hairstyles, clean and unclean foods, proper doctrine, eschatology, and all sorts of things. So these pastors need to recognize that Paul wrote a lot more than just 1 Corinthians 15, one through eight. If you say, I wanna be just like the Apostle Paul and preach the gospel, well then, amen, so do I. And that's what the Apostle Paul was doing as he was preaching the whole counsel of God. Acts 11 tells us that those disciples were first called Christians at Antioch. And that term disciple or Christian of Christ. So a Christian means a disciple of Christ or a follower of Christ. The last time that I was in Israel, if you haven't been able to tell, I do a lot of study on the Jewish roots of Christianity. You know, Jesus didn't just show up in a vacuum. You know, these topics that he's talking about in the Gospels were long debated Jewish debates. So if you don't know the context, you might not come to the right conclusion of what the Lord was talking about to a bunch of first century Jews in every passage. But We were in Israel and it was the last day. And for those of you that have been, oftentimes you go to the empty tomb on the last day and you'll be around the Temple Mount. And we were, we were in the old city, the Jewish quarter, and we had stopped for a rest. Some of the tour group going to use the bathroom, grab a bottle of water, whatever. And one of our tour group asked our guide Yitzhak or Isaac a question. They say, he said, why do the Jews dress so differently? Now, First of all, if you've never been to Israel, you need to go if there's ever peace again this side of the rapture. But I would recommend it if you get the chance. But they don't all dress differently. I mean, visiting Israel is like visiting another American state. They're very much like we are. You know, you've got some that dress up, some that wear jeans. You've got some that are very religious, some that aren't very religious. So it's much like visiting another state. But what this question was about was the ultra-Orthodox. Primarily... what we call the Hasidic Jews, as they are always dressed in an obvious black suit and white shirt. But many of them dress with distinct differences. Some wear big hats. Some wear small hats. Some wear knicker-type pants and long socks. Some wear long pants all the way down to the shoes. Some wear long coats, some wear short coats. Now, as many times as I've been to Israel, as much study I've done about the Jewish heritage, I assumed that I knew the answer to this, but I didn't. And the answer will astound you. Isaac said that they wear their clothes the way their particular rabbi wore. wears his clothes. They wear their hats and try to imitate their rabbi in his choice. They wear their socks the way their rabbi wears his. In other words, their goal was to become like their rabbi in thought, mannerism, and behavior. Now, a Jewish rabbi didn't hand his students a syllabus on the first day of class. They were commanded to follow me or walk Does that strike any chords from your memory of studying the Synoptic Gospels? In fact, one author likened the maturity of a disciple to be measured by the amount of dust that he accumulated on his clothing from following his rabbi so closely as he watched, imitated, listened, learned, and applied his teachings. Now, the Hebrew word for walk is halak, and it means more than simply taking a stroll. That's what John was talking about in 1 John 1 when he said, if a person walks in darkness, then he doesn't know me. But if he is of me, he walks in the light. That's your overall pattern of life is one that would honor and glorify God. And a rabbi's interpretation of the Torah is the halakha, or how to walk in accordance to God's word. Now, if you haven't heard a thing that I've said, listen to this next paragraph. In America, we have redefined what it means to live by faith. We believe that living by faith means that we make an empty profession or recite an empty creed that we don't actually understand. Then we proceed to live our lives the way we want to live our lives, justifying our behavior in light of the world's wisdom. And then when we absolutely make a mess out of things, we get on our knees and ask God to fix it. That is not living by faith. That is, in fact, testing God.
SPEAKER 01 :
You're listening to Family Talk, and I'm Roger Marsh. We're continuing with part two of an inspiring presentation from Pastor Paul Blair, a remarkable leader whose journey has taken him from the NFL playing field to the pulpit. Now, this enlightening message was recorded during a special gathering here at Colorado Springs where Pastor Blair shared powerful insights about making Jesus Lord over every area of our lives. from our families and careers to our daily decisions and long-term goals. If you're just joining us, you're in for a truly meaningful discussion about bridging the gap between faith and everyday life. So now let's return for the conclusion of this powerful message from Pastor Paul Blair on today's edition of Family Talk.
SPEAKER 02 :
Now listen to this sentence because this is most important. Obviously, as a pastor, I am passionate about prayer. Prayer is a privilege that we have as part of God's family, but we need to quit trying to pray our way out of situations that we have behaved ourselves into. That will sink in on your drive out of Colorado Springs later, and you'll realize just how impactful that was. We need to do a better job of discipling our church members. Now, the apostle Paul preached a trilogy of messages from Habakkuk 2.5. In Romans, he emphasized the justification by faith. In Hebrews, he emphasized the faith and the faith hall of fame in Hebrews 11. But in Galatians, he emphasized the justified shall live their life in accordance to faith. In Romans 10.17, the same apostle says faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of God. So living by faith means that we listen to what our Lord is telling us in his word and we obey it and then we apply it to our lives because God's ways are far above our ways. His thoughts are above our ways. As the heavens are above the earth, so are his ways above ours and his thoughts above ours. So Christians, our families should look different. Our marriages should be different. Our work ethic among employees should be second to none at your workplace. Our integrity as business owners should be exemplary. Our sexual proclivities should reflect the Lordship of Jesus. How we handle money should reflect the Lordship of Jesus. If pastors only understood, we complain about our tithes and offerings. And yet our congregation is full of people living in houses they can't afford, driving cars they can't afford, so they can impress neighbors they don't even like. What does the Bible tell us? The Bible tells us to work hard. Bible says to budget. Bible says to save. Bible says to invest. Bible also says that the borrower becomes a slave to the lender. but we don't teach about biblical economics. So I have Bob McEwen, Bob's a treasurer in our pastor's camps, introduces this thought concept to pastors. And let me also add our politics should reflect the Lordship of Jesus Christ. Now, another quick exegesis of Ephesians, which was written clearly to us. After a laundry list of sexual sins and other things that were tied to idolatry that they were warned not to participate in, Paul summed it up with this. He said, have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness, but rather reprove them. So church, have no part of, or you could actually accurately translate that, don't be a party of unfruitful works of darkness. And we aren't even giving the option for just coming out from among them and being separate. We're supposed to expose them and then stand against them. Now, I want to introduce you to a treasure in my life. This is my grandson Roman in January of 2021. This is my grandson Roman in March of 2021. Now listen to what I'm saying. You may actually be saved, but you're not following Jesus in your politics. If you are a party to a platform that endorses baby murder to Moloch, Baal, and Ashtoreth, the LGBT trans butchery of our children and the LGBT agenda that promotes theft and covetousness and communism, you aren't following God in your politics. You may actually be born again, but you've never been discipled to where you know to follow God even in this realm of politics. That's what it means, ladies and gentlemen, to live by faith. We're to glorify God in all that we do. Too often I hear people try to quote Proverbs 3, 5 as an Old Testament verse for Romans 8, 28. It's not. Read what it says. Trust in the Lord with all your heart. Don't lean on your own wisdom. Acknowledge the Lord in all your ways because he will direct your paths. That's a biblical worldview. Lord, what are your marching orders for me in this area of life? How should I function as a husband? What is my job as a dad? How should I treat the world as an employee? How should I function as a business owner? Lord, what would you have me to do? 2 Timothy 3, 16, all scriptures given by inspiration is God and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness. A disciple of Jesus, the one who walks with Jesus day by day, studies his teaching of the truth and applies his instruction to life since he is the Lord of all. Now, here's where the problem lies. You guys know the guy in the middle, the guy on the right, George Barna in the middle, a well-known statistician for Christian topics. The guy on the left is Richard Land, former head of ERLC, the guy left to him. is Sam Rohr from American Pastors Network in Pennsylvania. Of course, David Barton is the writer of the George. And that is me at almost 300 pounds prior to cancer. It looks like a dad taking his children to the zoo, doesn't it? But George did some in-depth study of people, Christians and pastors. And he didn't just ask them, what is your worldview? Are you a secularist or a Bible guy? Well, of course, everybody would answer, I'm a biblical worldview. He actually tested them, gave them a significant number of questions, then based upon their answers, determined what their worldview was. Among America in 2021, only 6% of Americans have a biblical worldview. Now, folks, understand that our Constitution was built only for a moral or Christian and religious people. That the truths that we function under, according to Thomas Jefferson, is the laws of nature and nature's God. That is basically Protestant biblical understanding of scripture. Only 6% of Americans have a biblical worldview. And here's why that is. He tested over a thousand pastors. Only one third of pastors have a biblical worldview. Folks, how can a pastor make disciples when he hasn't even properly been discipled? And that's why our country looks the way it does. We have accepted and believed in the church this lie of dualism. We have compartmentalized our lives between the secular and the sacred. May actually be truly born again, but we think like Darwinian socialists as that is the doctrine that's taught in modern public education and modern university. And we haven't made disciples in our churches. We haven't taught people, believers, to observe all things whatsoever the Lord has taught us. very quickly. This is what we teach our pastors. Ecclesiastes says there's nothing new under the sun. And quite frankly, everything we face today has been around for 6,000 years of humanity's sinfulness. We may have air conditioning and indoor plumbing, but the same old sin issue, the same old bodies. And God has divided responsibility for every issue and assigned it to one of four realms of government. Begins with self-government. Genesis 1, Adam had one command, don't eat of the tree of the garden, in the middle of the garden. Then we have family government. By the way, self-government, you decide if you should wear a mask or not. By the way, self-government, only you can decide whether you trust Christ or not. Nobody else can make that decision for you. Family government. You know one of the areas that was entrusted to moms and dads? Education. Moms and dads, train up your children in the nurture and admonition of the Lord. So why is it that we all as Christians take our children down to the kindergarten at the age of five, drop them off, then we pick them up when they graduate university at 21 and we wonder why they become atheistic postmodernists? Of course they're going to. That's what they've been taught. Then we've got this realm of church government. This, by the way, is where charity falls under. And then we've got civil government, proper and improper civil government, civil government responsibility in any passage of Scripture, whether it's Genesis 9, when Noah got off the boat, to anything that Paul wrote to Timothy or Peter wrote to the dispersed or Paul wrote to the church in Rome. The purpose of civil government is to punish evil and to protect the good that we may live peaceably in all godliness. When a government becomes evil, that is a perversion. Just as a father can become perverted or a mother can become perverted. And we aren't supposed to have unlimited submission to perversion. The Hebrew midwives in Exodus 1 told the Pharaoh, no. Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego told Nebuchadnezzar, no, there are times if civil government is wrong in promoting ungodliness, the response from Governor DeSantis, as it should have been many times these last three years in Florida, was no. Praise the Lord for proper civil government. But I invite you all to visit our website. Everything that we teach these pastors is there, and it's free. You go to the drop-down menu. You can access all of our video trainings. Bob's teaching, it's all there. We have PDF notes. We have study questions. You can use this for small group. All of it's there. Again, we have transcripts in English and Spanish. By the way, we're revising this, updating it. And then we deal with tough subjects. Hey, we were talking about the Black Lives Matter riots in the middle of the Black Lives Matter riots. We were talking what black liberation theology is. We talked about this COVID and all this nonsense. We have all this materials right there at your fingertips if you would like it. And with those remarks, God bless you. It's a privilege to be here.
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Well, being a disciple means following Jesus beyond Sunday mornings and living out our faith in every moment of every day. The choices we make, the words we speak, the love we show others or don't, all reflect our commitment to Christ's teaching. Fred, you're listening to Family Talk and a powerful message from Pastor Paul Blair about standing boldly in our faith in these challenging times. Now, if you missed any part of this special two-day presentation, simply visit drjamesdobson.org forward slash Family Talk to listen on demand and then share this message with others. By the way, you'll also find a complete archive of all of our radio broadcasts on the Family Talk app as well. Well, you know, some broadcasts are so powerful, they simply can't be forgotten. They're the kind of messages that stay with you, that shape your perspective and change how you live your faith. That's exactly why we've created our 2024 Best of Broadcast Collection. These carefully selected programs are gathered onto six CDs and capture the very best programs this year on Family Talk, timeless wisdom and biblical truth that will inspire generations to come. from strengthening marriages to raising godly children, from defending biblical values to understanding God's design for the family. Each message speaks directly to the challenges facing believers today. Now, we'll be happy to send you the complete six-CD set or a convenient digital download as our way of thanking you for your gift of any amount today. in support of the Dr. James Dobson Family Institute today. So be sure to request your copy when you make a donation online through our secure website at drjamesdobson.org or call us at 877-732-6825. And if you prefer to send your gift through the mail, our ministry mailing address is the Dr. James Dobson Family Institute. You can write to jdfi or familytalk.org They'll know what you mean at the post office. Our post office box is 39,000 Colorado Springs, Colorado. The zip code 80949. And during the month of December, we have a truly extraordinary opportunity for you at Family Talk because some generous ministry partners have stepped forward with an incredible matching grant. It doubles every gift made to Family Talk now through the end of the day on Tuesday, December 31st. Your $50 gift today will become $100. Your $5,000 gift becomes $10. The impact of your generosity doubles instantly. Such an amazing opportunity to maximize your support of Family Talk. Now you can give a gift online, as I mentioned, through our secure website at drjamesdobson.org. You can call us at 877-732-6825 or write to us. at P.O. Box 39000, Colorado Springs, Colorado, the zip code 80949. Well, I'm Roger Marsh, and on behalf of Dr. Dobson and the entire staff here at the JDFI, may God continue to richly bless you and your family as you grow stronger and deeper in your relationship with Him. And be sure to join us again next time right here for another edition of Dr. James Dobson's Family Talk. This has been a presentation of the Dr. James Dobson Family Institute.
In today's episode of Family Talk, Pastor Paul Blair brings a compelling message about cultural engagement and faithfulness. Dive into his fascinating journey from the fields of the NFL to the sacred halls of ministry, where he challenges Christians to live out their faith boldly and consistently in every aspect of life. Pastor Blair reveals how the early church's understanding of faith as shown in the Hebraic mindset remains relevant for believers today, encouraging us to see life as a single, undivided commitment to God.
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Welcome everyone to Family Talk. It's a ministry of the James Dobson Family Institute supported by listeners just like you. I'm Dr. James Dobson and I'm thrilled that you've joined us.
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Well, hello and welcome to Family Talk. I'm Roger Marsh, delighted to be with you today. You know, in these challenging times, Christians face a profound calling to be salt and light in our culture. But this raises an essential question that many of us struggle with. How do we effectively stand for biblical truth in today's rapidly changing world? Well, our guest today here on Family Talk has walked an extraordinary and unique path to answer this question. From the roaring crowds and intense competition of the NFL gridiron with the Chicago Bears to the sacred calling of shepherding his congregation at Fairview Baptist Church in Oklahoma, his journey is nothing short of remarkable. He is Pastor Paul Blair, and he now leads Reclaiming America for Christ and is the visionary founder of the Liberty Pastors Network. His powerful message today here on Family Talk brings fresh biblical insights on how to stand firm in our faith while engaging our culture with both truth and grace. Before we dive into Pastor Blair's compelling message, I have some exciting news to share with you. This message, of course, is part of our 2024 Best of Broadcast Collection, a six-CD set or digital download that features all of the most popular programs that we've aired here on the radio in 2024. Now, this December presents an extraordinary opportunity for you to double your impact. Through a special matching grant, every gift to Family Talk between now and December 31st will be matched dollar for dollar. But as Christmas is drawing closer, you know the days are drawing shorter as well, so your generosity will have twice the power to help families thrive and to strengthen the biblical foundations for our society for just a few days more. To double the impact of your year-end giving and to receive your copy of the six-CD collection called the 2024 Best of Broadcast Collection, go to drjamesdobson.org and give a gift through our secure website. That's drjamesdobson.org. Or call us at 877-732-6825. And now let's dive into this powerful message from Pastor Paul Blair, a message on cultural engagement and biblical faithfulness recorded right here in beautiful Colorado Springs.
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Well, good morning, everyone. It is a honor to be here. Dr. Dobson, Shirley, thank you so much for the invitation. If I can get the slides up here, I'll introduce you to myself. Now, for those of you, a little football trivia, how many of you recognize the guy that's in the picture there with me? How many of you knew that Jimmy Johnson began his head coaching career at Oklahoma State University back in 1979? So J.J. is actually who recruited me to play college football. And, of course, he went on to, rumor has it, had a little bit of success at the University of Miami Hurricane. And then, I don't know, some team called the Dallas Cowboys. I don't know. I try to keep up with them. But then I was drafted by the Chicago Bears, the defending world champion Chicago Bears, and had the privilege, as Bob said, of playing with some Hall of Famers and some legends, you know, Dick Butkus would travel with us in our games because he was working for WGN. Gail Sayers would come by just to say hi to the guys and be around Hallis Hall. So that was really a privilege to be a part of that family. And then at the age of 37, I was called into ministry. And understand, my father was a bivocational pastor, so I loved pastors. I walked an aisle and trusted Christ when I was six years old. I loved pastors, but having been a pastor's son, I saw what the work entailed. and I never wanted to be a pastor. As a matter of fact, most days now, I still don't want to be a pastor. That explains why I'm so bold in the pulpit. I've been trying to get fired for 23 years, but they refused to do so. But I'm a retired NFL football player. I had my own business in Oklahoma City, and I was serving as a volunteer youth pastor in our youth ministry in our church at the time when God called me clearly. And at the age of 37, my wife and I Well, my wife gave me great counsel because, you know, I didn't want to be a pastor. She didn't want to be a pastor's wife. So we agreed on that deal. But she said, if God is calling, that's where we need to be because the safest place to be is in God's will. And of course, having my background, I've had an unusual opportunity to be around the country and participate in a number of different events, even got to teach about biblical economics that the pilgrims brought with them to the new world and biblical civil government on Glenn Beck's show with his chalkboard. And those of you that know him know he is very selfishly greedy over his chalkboard So I count that a privilege, as Bob said, detoured with throat cancer back in 2019. And that was not a pleasant journey, as many of you know, but I am now considered a cancer survivor. And a good friend of mine came to work on our staff there five years ago. And we worked together with Liberty Church of Edmond and now a satellite branch in Liberty, Orlando. But Bob mentioned, I've got some good news. It tracks right what you've been hearing the last couple of days, but we are trying to respond to it. as we have done. In fact, next week in Hershey, Pennsylvania, a week from today, we begin our last Liberty Pastors training camp of the year. We bring 100 pastors at a time together with their wives into a luxury hotel, and we hold them hostage there for three days. We want them to have great fellowship, get to meet one another and love each other, and have a second honeymoon. Because, you know, most pastors only pastor churches that run around 75 to 100 people. So most of them can't afford to come to a place like the Broadmoor or something like that. So we reward them. We want to be a blessing to them. But in return, they give us 20 hours of their time for continuing education. And we teach them to think biblically in areas of their life that seminary taught them not to think biblically. So we begin our camps with this question. And I'll start my remarks this Sunday morning with you with the same question. What part of your life is Jesus, not the Lord over? The answer is obvious, ladies and gentlemen. He's supposed to be the Lord of all of our lives. Therefore, there should be nothing off limits in our preaching and disciple-making at church. Jesus is not just the Lord of Sunday morning. Jesus is the Lord of our families as Dr. Dobson and Shirley know. He's the Lord of education. He's the Lord of our work habits. He's the Lord of our work ethics, all of you business owners. He's the Lord of our sex lives. He's the Lord of how we handle money in the realm of economics. He is the Lord of our politics. Jesus is Lord of all. So why is it that we compartmentalize our lives? Why do we believe that there are subjects that can't be talked about in church? Well, I'm going to explain that to you this morning. And let me just say this, your pastor has been trained to think this way. This concept is a lie straight from the pit of hell that the church has bought hook, line, and sinker. Now, let me explain. There's no question that early on the church at Pentecost was 100% Jewish. They had a Jewish worldview with a great knowledge of the Old Testament. As a matter of fact, ironically, Andy Stanley, the only Bible that the New Testament church had for about two decades was what we call the Old Testament. The Old Testament is the Bible that Jesus would have used to teach the disciples and those on the road to Emmaus how it all spoke about him. That's the Bible that the Apostle Paul would have been debating over in Jewish synagogues throughout Asia and Europe. The Tanakh was the only Bible for the New Testament church for about two decades. As a matter of fact, the question of the early church was not about baptism or the work of the Holy Spirit. The question among the early church was about circumcision. Christianity was treated as just another sect of Judaism by the Romans. At the time of Jesus, there were 24 sects, S-E-C-T-S, or I would say denominations among Judaism. You're familiar with many of them. There were the Pharisees, there were the Sadducees, there were the Essenes, there were the Herodians, and now you had this new group called the Nazarenes. all gathering together under the umbrella of the temple in Jerusalem. Christianity was Jewish to its very core. In fact, the question was not whether a Jew could become a Christian. It was whether a Gentile could become a Christian. But as the church grew into Asia and Europe, And after the destruction of Jerusalem, let me tell you, as the church grew exponentially through across Asia, after the destruction of the temple at Jerusalem, after the Hebrew apostles died off with John being the last living apostle, the Greek line of thought affected the thinking of the church. In fact, much of the New Testament addresses the error of Gnosticism as the apostles warned against this heresy in their many epistles. Now understand what this Greek line of thought was. The Greeks viewed the world in two compartments or two spheres. There was the spiritual world and there was the material world. the spiritual was good and could be redeemed, but the material world was inherently irredeemably wicked. Well, this led to the logical conclusion, but heresy in the early church that Christ could not have actually come in the flesh. How could he, which is holy, become a part of this irredeemable, unholy material world? So they had a number of theories. Some theorized that Jesus was actually A phantom spirit wasn't really there. If he was walking along a seashore, he wouldn't leave prints in the sand because he was just this phantom spirit. Others theorized that the spirit of the Messiah came upon this man, Jesus of Nazareth, at his baptism by John the Baptist in the Jordan River, and then departed the body of this man, Jesus of Nazareth. as he hung on the cross. But either way, they came to the conclusion that the word had not become flesh and given his life as a substitutionary sacrifice for us, that his blood had not been poured out for our atonement, that the resurrection did not, he wasn't actually raised from the dead, declaring our justification. So this obviously, this Gnostic thought was heresy theologically. But it was also ungodly in practice. In fact, they were pushing the concept that you can sin all you want to in your body as long as your spirit was pure. That's what John was addressing in 1 John and addressing that error head on. But again, this led to the concardinalization between the spiritual world and the material world. And we have adopted the same mindset in modern day America as we have compartmentalized Christianity. Much like a picnic plate. We keep our Christianity, if I could have the next slide, please. We keep our Christianity in its proper place, but we don't dare let Christianity spill over and influence any other sphere of our lives. That obviously is our secular life and the spiritual realm doesn't belong there. Christianity has become something that we do on Sunday morning, but we don't let our church thing interfere with real life in the material world. We have our spiritual life where we place all of our sacred things that we can talk about in church. By the way, this box is getting smaller and smaller and smaller. Then we have reality, which is our physical life, which is reserved for secular thinking. And we can't talk about those things in church. But the Hebraic mindset, ladies and gentlemen, was they understood that God created the material world and the spiritual world. Therefore, Rabbi Apostle Paul said, whatever you do, you are to do to the glory of God. Paul again said, glorify God in your body, i.e. the material world, and in your spirit, the spiritual world, as they both belong to God. So salvation and subsequent lordship was understood in the Hebrew mentality. You cannot separate them. Let me give you another example. I was sitting next to a wonderful gentleman, Craig, the other night. We were talking on our opening night. And he brought up the Shema. The Shema is the John 3, 16 of Judaism. Deuteronomy 6, 4. Shema Yisrael, hear, O Israel, Adonai Eloheinu, the Lord your God, Adonai Ikad, the Lord is one. Hear, O Israel, the Lord your God, the Lord is one. This is the passage of scripture that they put on the masseuses that they hang on the doorpost. This is the passage of scripture that's inside the Teflon when they put their prayer boxes on their foreheads and on their hands. This is the fundamental, it's a rededication of life twice a day. It's a pledge of allegiance done twice a day in the morning and evening. But understand in biblical Hebrew, there are only about 7,000 words. In modern day American English, we have about 100,000 words that we use. So when you're studying the Bible and you go back and you look in the Hebrew, and whether you speak Hebrew or not, you all have Hebrew lexicons, so you can, with a little effort, do this. But you have to understand that the words there have a broader and deeper meaning than what we might first conclude reading it from an English or from a Western mind. So it's important that we look at the passages in context. So this word Shema, to hear, hear O Israel, literally means when you look at the lexicon, Shema means to hear. But you know what the Hebrew word for obey is? Take a guess. Shema. Shema was understood among the Hebrews to hear is to obey. You have read it in your King James Bible, he that hath an ear to hear, let him hear. No, what it's saying is that if you have an ear to hear, then do what I'm telling you to do. So there was no controversy between James and Paul from a Jewish theological perspective. although we have wasted volumes of ink debating this conflict that didn't really exist. They were both addressing two sides of the same coin. The apostle Paul was emphasizing the fact that it is faith alone that produces our salvation. And James is emphasizing that true faith will produce works. So the natural result of one falling to his knees to call upon the resurrected Christ as his personal savior is to recognize that he is in fact the Lord of your life. In other words, to put it simply, the confession of our faith should match the expression of our faith. We should be consistent. Now don't misunderstand a word that I'm saying. We are not saved because of a transformed life, but a transformed life is the natural result of one being saved. In fact, I put it like this. The new birth is a prayer of faith as a heart's confession that's based upon the revelation that Jesus is the Lord and that results in a transformation. Just as Thomas doubted, he said, I don't believe it. I saw his dead body. There's no way that guy's alive. I'll not believe unless he stands right here and I can put my fingers in the nail prints in his hands. A week later, he shows up, says, Thomas, go ahead. Thomas, when coming face to face with the resurrected Christ, hit his knees and cried out, my Lord and my God. That is a Jesus moment. The Apostle Paul on the road to Damascus going to persecute Christians came face to face with the resurrected Christ and permanently transformed his life. That is a Jesus moment. Now, I love this page I'm going to put up here because it doesn't come from a Christian website. This actually comes from a Jewish website. But it analyzes the difference between the Greek thinking pistis, which means faith, and the Hebraic meaning faith. Imunah, which means faith, says this, Imunah is more than belief that certain statements about God are true. It is a belief in God, trust and reliance upon God, all of which call forth behavior consistent with that trust and reliance. So our expression of faith should be consistent with our confession of faith. Now, Consider as an example, if you happen to be a member of a church that's not active, and your pastor says, oh, we shouldn't talk about those things. That's part of the secular world. Consider this list of charges, and it's rather exhaustive. I may have missed a couple, but this is pretty exhaustive. You go through all of the books of prophecy in the Old Testament, and you compiled a list of charges of the things that God was upset with Israel and Judah over. I want you to think in your mind as I go down each of these point by point very quickly about whether you would consider this a spiritual issue or a secular issue. Whether this is something your pastor would talk about in church, or if you are a pastor, is this something that you would consider talking about in church? Okay, things that God was upset with. They were dishonest in business. Is that spiritual or secular? Yeah, it is. Actually, it's both. So that's a trick question. They ignored the sabbatical year of release. That's an economic issue. That's a personhood issue. They used unjust weights and measures. By the way, When we just simply inflate the amount of dollars in the money supply, that is an example of ungodly, unjust weights and measures. And not only are they stealing from us, but we are stealing from our children and our grandchildren simply by putting digits into a computer. There's nothing about what the Federal Reserve or our government is doing right now with this deficit spending that is in accordance with biblical principles of civil government or economics. They removed landmarks. They didn't recognize private property rights. Ticked God off. They bribed judges. Leaders fed off of the flocks rather than caring for them. They were disrespectful to their parents and elders. They didn't care for their family. God had designed it where we were to take care of our children when they were young, and when we were old, our children were to take care of us. They lived for revelry and drunken parties. They murdered their children. Religion became big business. They were no longer ashamed of immorality, even celebrating homosexuality, and paraded and reveled in their debauchery. Things that common sense and God said were evil, they called good. Things that experienced common sense and God called good, they called good. they called evil. They were proud and arrogant. Their court system became corrupt. The government was corrupt. They denied and abandoned God. And when Jeremiah would come to the temple and face the people of Jerusalem and say, repent, they would point to the temple and say, what are you talking about? We're God's people. We go to church on Sundays. Ladies and gentlemen, God is not impressed with how pretty we look on Sunday mornings. God wants to see the reality of our love for him with our obedience. Remember what Jesus said? If you love me, keep my commandments. With our obedience and following him 168 hours out of the week. That's 24-7. Now, it's what James was emphasizing. Go ahead and talk about your faith here. Let me show you my faith. Now, here's where our pastors have that come to Jesus moment. The Great Commission tells us to go into all the world and make disciples. Doesn't say make church members. Doesn't say make professors of faith. Doesn't say make people repeat the sinner's prayer. But that's not what we've been called to do. We've been called to make disciples. And what do we do? How do we make a disciple? We teach that convert to observe all things whatsoever the Lord has commanded us. Now, folks, Ephesians says, We will often misappropriate, Christians often misappropriate verses that really weren't intended for us. We have books of devotionals where God made a promise to David and we take it because it sounds good and it's encouraging. We'll put it in a little something and we'll apply it to us. Sometimes that's good. Sometimes it's really not a correct or exegesis of scripture. But understand that Ephesians is clearly written to the New Testament church. So everything here is directly to us. And my responsibility as a pastor is, one, I'm supposed to be an evangelist. Boy, you better believe it. In fact, I have a little booklet if any of you want it. It's a wonderful book. We've had great success with this in college campuses. Just 24 pages. It's a heavy track, heavily influenced. In fact, Frank Turek did the editing for me. Frank Turek, Josh McDowell, but it's called Not Blind Faith, Verifiable Evidence That God Exists and Rose From the Dead. We have found this to be a real plus. Hey, we are huge on evangelism. I required my church members about a month ago to write out their testimonies. I wanted a copy of it. Reason being is I wanted them to consider whether they actually had one. And if they didn't, then we needed to talk. But evangelism, of course, what does it profit a man if he should gain the whole world but lose his own soul?
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Well, you know, our faith isn't just for Sunday mornings. It's meant to be lived out every moment of every day. It should flow naturally into every aspect of our lives, from the business decisions we make to how we raise our families, the way we engage with our communities, and how we serve others. That is the powerful message we just heard today from Pastor Paul Blair here on Family Talk as he challenged us to live authentic Christian lives in an increasingly secular world. Amen. Amen. Amen. Amen. Well, with every single day, we receive incredible testimonies about how Family Talk is transforming lives nationwide. We hear from moms who found hope and practical guidance while dealing with troubled teens. Or couples write to us to tell us how they've rediscovered God's divine plan for their marriages. Well, fathers are sharing how they've embraced biblical leadership in their homes after years of struggling as well. And even young parents are writing and calling us, telling us how our broadcasts have given them confidence to raise their children with godly principles. Please know that your faithful financial support makes all these life-changing moments possible. And right now, your giving will have twice the impact. Thanks to some generous ministry partners who have stepped forward with an incredible matching grant opportunity, your donation will be matched dollar for dollar now through December 31st. This means a $50 gift becomes $100, $500 becomes $1,000, $10,000 becomes, well, you get the idea. Every gift, no matter the size, will go twice as far to bring biblical truth, practical wisdom, and lasting hope to families nationwide. So we boldly invite you to be part of this mission to help families grow closer to God and to each other. You can make a secure donation online when you go to drjamesdobson.org. That's drjamesdobson.org. You can also call our dedicated customer service team at 877-732-6825. That's 877-732-6825. And if you prefer, you can send your donation through the mail. Our ministry mailing address is Dr. James Dobson's Family Talk. P.O. Box 39000, Colorado Springs, Colorado. The zip code 80949. And while you're on the line with us, whether you call or click or write, make sure you also ask about the brand new 2024 Best of Broadcast Collection. that captures the most powerful and transformative programs from the past year. Rabbi Jonathan Cahn, Victor and Eileen Marks, Dr. Dobson's timeless wisdom on strengthening marriages and more. This carefully curated six CD set is also available as a digital download, and it's our way of thanking you for your gift of any amount in support of the JDFI today. So have that gift doubled when you go to drjamesdobson.org or call 877-732-6825. Well, I'm Roger Marsh. Hope you've been encouraged by today's program. Please join us again next time for part two of Pastor Paul Blair's inspiring message about living out our faith in every area of life. That's right here next time on Dr. James Dobson's Family Talk. This has been a presentation of the Dr. James Dobson Family Institute.
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Saying no to our children can sometimes become an unfortunate habit in the home. With another Dr. Dobson Minute, here's Dr. James Dobson. Every child needs to be acquainted with denial of his more extravagant wishes, and there's a need for parents who have the courage to say no when circumstances warrant. But this responsibility of holding the line and turning down a child's petitions can lead us to say no when we really ought to say yes. What's behind the habit of saying no? Well, it's like an umpire who immediately calls a runner out or safe at home plate. He knows that to waver is to invite an avalanche of protests. And because the kids ask for a thousand favors a day, we find it convenient to refuse them all. But this knee-jerk negativism is irritating for the child and unduly restrictive to him. Say yes to your child unless there is a very good reason for saying no. For more information, visit drdobsonminute.org.
Join us as we dive deep into the incredible story of Steel Crosswhite, a worship leader and pastor from the Rock Church in Salt Lake City. Steel recounts his transformative journey from the secular music scene to leading a vibrant music ministry, revealing how his spiritual awakening impacted not just his life but also the lives of those around him. In a candid conversation filled with personal anecdotes, Steel shares the profound role faith has played in redefining his purpose and passion for music.
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Welcome everyone to Family Talk. It's a ministry of the James Dobson Family Institute supported by listeners just like you. I'm Dr. James Dobson and I'm thrilled that you've joined us. Well, hello and welcome to Family Talk, the broadcast division of the Dr. James Dobson Family Institute. I'm Roger Marsh, sitting in for Dr. Dobson here today. And the program you're about to hear is a broadcast that is included in our 2024 Best of Broadcast Collection. And you can reserve a copy of this six CD set. or get the digital download when you go to drjamesdobson.org. We'll thank you for your gift of any amount in support of our ministry by sending you a copy of the Best of Broadcast collection when you request it. And again, remember, we have a special matching grant in place right now thanks to some generous members of our Family Talk listening family. and every gift you give between now and December 31st will be doubled. So go to drjamesdobson.org and make your best tax-deductible donation there, or call us at 877-732-6825. Now on today's broadcast, we are joined by Steel Crosswhite. worship leader and pastor at the Rock Church in Salt Lake City. Through his leadership at the Rock Music Ministry, Steele brings unique insights into how music shapes our spiritual journey. Steele, welcome to the Family Talk broadcast. Dr. Dobson and his wife Shirley send their warm regards.
SPEAKER 01 :
You know, I cannot thank Dr. Dobson and Shirley enough. I am so blessed and so honored to be on this program. I listen to their content. I've read so many of Dr. Dobson's books. I turn to the website and all of the content in the interview section. regularly for my family, for my own faith. And so to be here today is a bit surreal. It really is an answer to prayer. And in some ways I'm shaking my head. I just can't believe it. So thank you. Thank you. Thank you very much.
SPEAKER 02 :
Well, we're glad to have you here because it's always fascinating to find out how the journey begins, where God takes you on the road. And of course, yours had a couple of ups and downs.
SPEAKER 01 :
Oh, sure have, sure have.
SPEAKER 02 :
I'm sure that they're well worth our time. First and foremost, let's talk about your faith foundation before we get into the music.
SPEAKER 01 :
Absolutely.
SPEAKER 02 :
When did you come to faith? Did you grow up in a Christian home?
SPEAKER 01 :
You know, I did not grow up in a Christian home per se. I was 12 years old when I became a Christian at a Lutheran church in Salt Lake City, Utah. There was not a lot of non-denominational type churches. It was the
SPEAKER 02 :
It was the Lutheran church.
SPEAKER 01 :
It was the Lutheran church. I became a Christian at the age of 12. My parents became Christians around that time, but they were at a later age. And we attended that church fairly faithfully for about four years until I was about 16. And then from 16 to about 24. At three, 24 years old, my journey was not following the Lord. It was very different. Today, however, Jesus is the passion and the compass of my life. I love it. It means more to me than anything or anybody. So Steele, when did your music career officially begin? Depending on which career we're talking about. Okay. Yes, sir. So as far as my background with music, it started really at a young age. I was singing in talent shows at the age of five and performing in front of people by the age of 12. My dad was a musician himself and would like to play guitar and put me in front of audiences where I would sing and wear Elvis-shaped sunglasses, if you will, heart-shaped sunglasses singing. Fun. Singing Elvis tunes. But, you know, music really started to grip me around the age of 15, 16, which is about the time I stopped going to church. That's interesting. Yeah, music really became the idol of my life. I can say that now with a lot of clarity. Sure, sure. And it was secular music. It was not Christian music by any means. It was rock and roll, straight up rock and roll. And my professional music career really began around that time, probably 15, 16. And certainly by the time I was 17, we were playing with my band in secular clubs and theaters all across the country. Yeah. And lots of people are paying money to hear you? Yeah, you know, the story is that by the time I was about 20 years old, we were starting to pick up a lot of notoriety regionally. And my dad, being my best friend at the time, was also our manager. He had some background in music, and I can look at that now and see that he was really trying to guide a rocket, I think. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Well, we had an opportunity to play a showcase in Las Vegas, Nevada. And a showcase being for your audience, I'm sure they know, but it's kind of like a big talent show for all the big bands. Sure. And we were invited to go to that showcase as a buzz band, is what they called it back then, where the band had started picking up fans regionally in different states and such. And we were scheduled to play at the Hard Rock Hotel... Oh, yeah. And casino. A really great, actually, club and slot for us to play. The night before we were scheduled to play, my dad suddenly died of an abdominal aortic aneurysm. Oh, my goodness. We had gone there about five days early to, but this is before Facebook and social media. Mm-hmm. Right. Mm-hmm. And when he had passed away, suddenly that news filtered through the showcase. And we had decided to play the show the next day, even though he had passed away. Kind of like a tribute honor moment, if you will. And the club filled up. It was stacked from front to back. The next thing you know, it was a bit like a movie where people were offering us management deals and record company deals. And so to answer your question about folks paying money to come and see us, that definitely started to happen at a very fast rate by that time.
SPEAKER 02 :
It certainly did. I don't want to run past your dad because I know he played a huge role in your life. And when you said aortic aneurysm, I went, wait, I got one of those too.
SPEAKER 01 :
Right, sure.
SPEAKER 02 :
Got a nine-inch scar right here from sending one. Okay. And... It's a silent killer. And so this is my little public service announcement for heart health and taking care of those things. Because your dad was probably in great shape.
SPEAKER 01 :
You know, he wasn't in great shape, but it was a silent killer. He wasn't the healthiest person around, that's for sure. But we weren't prepared for it. There was no sign ahead of it. There was no warning. There was no testing. There is no warning sign. It was suddenly he was there and he was functioning just fine and larger than life and then suddenly not.
SPEAKER 02 :
Yeah. If I hadn't gone for a routine physical for a life insurance policy. Sure. And they did an EKG and I failed it. Wow. And they said, go see a cardiologist. And they did x-rays and all of a sudden said, wow, your aortic valve is bicuspid and it's in stenosis and it's about to stop working. And you have this aneurysm. And if you don't have surgery in three weeks, you won't make it. Oh, my goodness. But. I'm fortunate, you know, because I wouldn't have known. I was just trying for a life insurance policy. So, I mean, I can feel where you are in terms of that saying, okay, dad's not in peak physical condition, but this just came out of nowhere. That must have really been a jolt to you because since music was your God and your dad was your manager and that's wild.
SPEAKER 01 :
Yeah, to this day, it's probably the most significant life change and jolt that I've ever had. And looking back at it now, I think it was the catalyst to what led to my dependence upon the Lord. I'll give you a bit more of the story there after the show that we played directly after my father passed away. When I mentioned it was a bit like a movie, it really was kind of like that. You know, I was 20 years old, maybe 21. We had all these opportunities to to meet with these people that I'd only heard about or read about. record company executives and management companies and so forth. And we ended up moving forward with a record company that had lots of money and lots of distribution for our band. And we had signed with them and we had a great relationship with them. Really, we were kind of a startup band for them, but they had national distribution and really thick, deep wallets. And they were able to put us on some really great shows, really big, big arena type rock shows. So we were out on tour with a number of bands that are still playing today. We'd done some recording in Indiana at John Mellencamp's studio, and we released that album, and the songs went number one, and there we were just living a life. A lot of success, but when you talk about who brought me back, inside of that time, there was about three years of a lot of darkness, a lot of sadness and immorality, a lot of drunkenness, a lot of bad decisions because I was not following the Lord. I had lost my dad. I had been in some ways kind of shot to this level of accomplishment and had a ton of things handed to me. I had come off a tour. I had been out for about five months, I think, five or six months. And my sister, who had never stopped following the Lord, she is the person, the catalyst who led to me becoming saved and my whole family becoming saved. Way back when, she never stopped following the Lord. And she had found this new church. I had come off the road, and I was about 100 pounds heavier. I had been drinking straight for three years. I was addicted to all kinds of things. And she saw me, and she said, only like a sister could, you just look terrible. You look absolutely terrible. You need to come to church. I thought, I'm not coming to church. I'm going to be struck by lightning. She said to me, well, no, this is not a church like we grew up in. You know, this church is, it meets at night and you can come as you are. And in fact, you can smoke out front and you can eat nachos when we're done and I'll buy you a beer when I've finished. And I thought, well, you'll buy me some beers. I'll eat some nachos and I can smoke out front. Okay, I'll come to your church. at the lutheran church yeah i probably could have oh yeah yeah um but i went i ended up going on to this uh evening church called the rock is what it was called and uh you know it was one of those divine appointments where i had walked in and it was in a little rec room i mean it was real small at that time there was mirrors on the side of the wall you know where people work out and such and uh You know, it was kind of it was very modest. You know, there was a band that was playing worship music. And of course, I had only had experience with Christian music in a in more of a traditional setting, right? Yeah, a lot more like that. And so when I walked in, it was it was like, wow, this is different. I had not heard music like this, you know, and necessarily I'm sure it was around. But when the drummer who was playing, when he got up, it was the pastor of the church. And he came over and he started talking about the grace and the love of Jesus. And that message, that encounter, God using my sister and that evening, it changed my life forever. It's like a light switch went off in my heart. That's a miracle. I realized I needed the Lord and I needed to change.
SPEAKER 02 :
Yeah. And he knew everything you'd done.
SPEAKER 01 :
Every single thing.
SPEAKER 02 :
He'd been with you every step of the way. Every way. Yep. Calling for you. Yep. And I can only imagine the euphoria of, hey, we're traveling. We've got top 10 songs. We're with all these bands. I mean, these are major artists. Yeah. And you guys are right there with them. Yeah. And then you come off the road and realize, hey, wait a minute. This is my highest, highest, and lowest low all at the same time.
SPEAKER 01 :
Yes. Yes. Yeah.
SPEAKER 02 :
And that's where Jesus met you.
SPEAKER 01 :
And that is exactly where he met me. And I remember, you know, feeling like... I had about three months before I was supposed to go on another tour. There was a great band. They're still around. It was a favorite of mine at the time called the Black Crows. Oh, yeah. And I was going to go out with the Black Crows on a theater tour. It was going to be me and their singer and his brother, their guitar player, on a theater acoustic tour. And I was going to go out with them. And that would have been a dream. But I remember... During that three months of time, God radically began to change my life where I knew I was hanging around with my sister who had all these friends that I thought were nerds. Her closest friend is now my wife. And she's the best part of me. She really is. But I was hanging around with all these people that just loved each other. I mean, they did. They were playing cards. I was like, where's the alcohol? Where's the booze? It's like, no, we're playing board games. And I was so changed by their simple love of each other and love of the Lord. And then I started meeting with that pastor I spoke about. His name is Bill. And he would start talking to me about Jesus and kind of a deeper understanding of grace in the Bible. And I remember thinking, if I go back out on the road, I don't know if this was the Lord or not. I can only assume it is. But I remember having a deep sense. If you go out again, you're going to die. You're asking for it. This is it. And so by so many different miraculous things that got orchestrated, I was able to get out of my record deal. And I didn't know what I was going to do. I had no desire to be a Christian singer-songwriter. I had no idea that that was the plan for me. You didn't have a frame of reference for that. None at all. All I knew was I can't go out. And so I stayed. that is what I've been doing for 20 years now. Wow. Yeah. Yeah.
SPEAKER 02 :
So getting out of those contracts, I mean, that's God, the fact that you could have been on the hook for lots of money and lots of, you owe us three albums and do tours and whatever. It's just, it's, it's a miracle.
SPEAKER 01 :
Was it really that difficult? To leave? Yeah. You know, I'd be a liar if I said no. It was difficult. And sometimes it can still be. A lot of my friends that I was playing with ended up becoming megastars, really just megastars. The people that I was playing and recording with and performing with were the top best musicians in the world, really. So in one sense, it's very hard, like all of us as believers, to leave a part of our life behind that we know is going to lead to something different. We might have a a skill for it. We might even have a passion for it, but it may not be God's best. And so in the sense of leaving behind my pride or my flesh, that was hard. But in the sense of being able to walk in, and I can only say it like this, in the freedom of being known by God, there's nothing like it. And so in that sense, I'm just running after him. That's all I want to do is run after him.
SPEAKER 02 :
I love it. So at some point, somebody has to tell Pastor Bill, unless you were the one to tell him, you know, the steel guy, he's a pretty good musician. Yeah. Were you willing to just kind of keep that under wraps and say, this is my church home. I'm going to grow in my faith. I'll sweep the floor. I don't want to be the worship leader.
SPEAKER 01 :
Yeah, I was willing to do all of those things.
SPEAKER 02 :
How long did you stay out of music there?
SPEAKER 01 :
Oh, quite a while. So my sister, however, who was going to this church. There comes that sister. Yeah, she, you know, would talk to Bill and Bill knew that I was a musician. You know, I kind of walked the walk, if you will, and, you know, talk to the talk. But she was kind of like, you need to play at the church. I'm not, I know, I don't want to do that. And then Bill eventually, you know, after several months was like, hey, would you like to play a song at the church? And just one song. You don't have to join the group. Yeah. It was nothing like. Yeah, I'm going to give you the ministry. They teach you that in seminary. Yeah, sure. Yeah. But he was very gracious, you know, very, very willing to take a risk on me. And it really was that. And he's still like that today. He has a lot of faith in the Lord's hand in other people's lives. And so it wasn't right away. I didn't stop playing music in one band and suddenly start playing in a worship band. There was a lot of changes that needed to happen in my heart, understanding what it meant to authentically worship, understanding how to lead worship. All those things came with time. Now, of course, it's it's my day to day life. But at that time, it wasn't right away and it was a slower build.
SPEAKER 02 :
The church is the Rock Church in Salt Lake City and the music group is called the Rock Music. Yes. How did it make that change?
SPEAKER 01 :
Yeah, that's such a great question. So in 2000 and. I can't remember if it's 2003 or four, so it's quite some time ago. Bill had asked me to write a worship album. I had never done that. He said, hey, well, the church will give you money. We want you to go in and use your gift and talent. And by this time I was following the Lord wholeheartedly. And so I went in and I recorded this album and it's a work of God. I had 10, 12 songs on it and they were worship tunes. And he said, this is great. The church loves it. Let's record another one. And so then I recorded another one in like 2005. After 2005, I had the thought of like, you know, what's awesome is if we could have the best bands in the world known for loving Jesus Christ come out of a local church. Wouldn't that be amazing if it wasn't about going out on the road and leaving the church to use your gift? Because so many people do that. They go, oh, the church has no place for my style. The church has no place for my song. The church has no place for my music or whatever art it may be. And so we're going to leave the church to chase it. And my heart was, well, what if the church is the thing that fosters it?
SPEAKER 02 :
Yes.
SPEAKER 01 :
And how can we be a part of making the best bands in the world, help them write their own music, help them record their own music, help them be under the authority and protection of God-honoring leadership so that they don't have to go away and find all of the trappings that are there in the name of Jesus. Right. But instead can... Stay inside the church. And so starting in about 2006, God started miraculously bringing more musicians and more people that loved God. And they were writing their own songs. And then we would help them in the recording studio. And then there'd be more musicians and more songs and all kinds of styles. Not just one brand of music. Interesting, interesting. rock and roll for Jesus inside the church. It could be alt country, which we've done before. It can be indie rock. It can be straight up, you know, like the Christian contemporary, whatever, as long as they're using their gift and they're doing it under the umbrella of the local church and for Jesus, we are all for that. And that's what we're leading today. That's been about, not quite 20 years now, but we've had dozens of bands and dozens of musicians, and still today, dozens of bands and musicians that are loving and recording and leading the church on weekend services, but also recording and releasing their own music.
SPEAKER 02 :
I think that's wonderful to hear, especially the different styles, because, you know, if it got too corporate... Then all of a sudden it's like, here's our style. Let's find more musicians who fit the style. Instead of saying, look, God created all of us differently, you know, loves us equally, but not the same. You guys understand that. And you of all people understand how that works, too. Yeah. There's a new album out.
SPEAKER 01 :
Yes, we just released an EP called The Future is Sure. That came out, and we're so blessed by that. There's a number of songs on there that are original songs from me, and we have some more singles being released, and we can't wait for our folks to hear that. They're all songs about Jesus, all from our own musicians, and we're very blessed by it.
SPEAKER 02 :
What kind of pushback have you gotten, either from within the industry or, you know, there are people looking at your model and saying, hey, this is different than what we're doing right now.
SPEAKER 01 :
Oh, man. That is a great question. You know, I appreciate that you say that you like that uniqueness of each individual artist having an individual sound. I appreciate that, too, because we feel like that's something that God has given them. Under one church are all these different styles of music and talents. We're not all the same. But that can be hard for the music industry sometimes to understand because they're used to representing this is not bad or good. It just is what it is. that they're used to representing a certain style of music from one, if you will, church or one brand or whatever that may be. And when we are speaking to folks, we're not representing just one. We're representing all of them and their various different styles. And so that can be a challenge. I wouldn't say it's a pushback. It's a challenge for folks to say, listen, at the end of the day, our greatest desire is not to be famous. Mm-hmm. It is not to be worldwide big. It's to honor Jesus through our local church. We want more people to know about it because we think what God is doing in Utah is amazing. But we can't become something that we're not. So we have to stay right where God's given us this vision. And that's where we are today.
SPEAKER 02 :
Steele, you guys are in Salt Lake City. Yes, sir. And that's not usually a hotbed for Christian music or really Christian anything.
SPEAKER 01 :
At all, yes.
SPEAKER 02 :
Talk about it. I would imagine you have quite an impact on one particular group of people.
SPEAKER 01 :
It is largely, you've heard of the Mormon faith or the Latter-day Saints, the LDS faith. And so a giant part of our music ministry and a giant part of our church ministry has been to tell our Mormon friends and neighbors about the grace and the love and the forgiveness and perfect atonement of Jesus Christ on the cross. There's quite a disconnect in their faith We love them. We appreciate them as our neighbors and our friends and many of our family members. But the understanding of the gospel is of grace is very different. And so a large part of our church is opening up the doors to these folks that have been so burdened by legalism or by feeling separated from God and feeling like they need to work that ladder back up. where we say, wait, wait, wait, Jesus Christ came down to us and he paid for all of us. And to watch that transformation, that full understanding of grace, love, forgiveness, and eternity, it is a joy. It is one of the reasons we remain in Utah, if not the reason is to be reaching out to our Mormon friends and neighbors. Yes.
SPEAKER 02 :
That's awesome. Okay. How has the music industry, how has your experience with the rock music, how has it transformed you in the faith journey?
SPEAKER 01 :
You know, it deepens my faith journey. God is so kind to give us the Word of God. He's so kind to give us honest men and women in the Word of God that pour their hearts out to the Lord. And nothing gives me more joy than to be able to know that inside of our church, there is a culture where I can write and we, many of our musicians, can write honest songs like David would write. Songs about failure or songs about fear. And also straight up, God, you are wonderful worship songs. And the church has so embraced our ability to do that. So that when we write a song that might be more introspective, it's still received as worship because it is. And that has been a wonderful joy of our life to know that we have a church and a collective of musicians that encourage that kind of transparency and honesty in music. And when we can do that, it deepens our faith.
SPEAKER 02 :
Where can we find you?
SPEAKER 01 :
Yes, so on all of the platforms, we are called The Rock Music. You can find us, of course, on Spotify, Instagram, and all the various streaming platforms. We also have a website, therockmusic.org, and all of our music is there for free. You can listen to it. There's charts there. Of course, Spotify is an easy way to see all of our albums over the last 20 years. I think we've released 25 different works of art, so... That's where I'd start. I like the way you describe those.
SPEAKER 02 :
That's great. Thank you. Because hopefully they are. I mean, that's the goal, right?
SPEAKER 01 :
Yes.
SPEAKER 02 :
To bring glory to God through your art form.
SPEAKER 01 :
We'll still cross fight.
SPEAKER 02 :
It's been great to get to know you. God bless you and the ministry team. And we're so grateful for the time today.
SPEAKER 01 :
Thank you so much for this honor. Really.
SPEAKER 02 :
Well, Steel Cross White's story shows us how God can transform any talent into something meaningful for his kingdom when we surrender it to him. I'm grateful to have had this conversation with Steel Cross White of the Rock Music Ministry. And to learn more about his ministry and music, you can visit us at drjamesdobson.org forward slash family talk. That's drjamesdobson.org forward slash family talk. Well, throughout the year, we receive countless messages from listeners sharing how certain Family Talk programs have impacted their lives. And we've gathered these impactful conversations into our 2024 Best of Broadcast collection. These carefully selected programs have inspired spiritual growth and brought positive changes to families just like yours all across the country. Now, this collection is available as a six-CD set or as a digital download, and it's our gift to you as a way of thanking you for supporting Family Talk with a donation of any amount today. And whether you are adding it to your personal library, sharing it with friends, or giving it as a meaningful Christmas gift, you can easily request a copy online when you go to drjamesdobson.org. or by calling 877-732-6825. That's 877-732-6825. Now remember, between now and the end of the month, December 31st, thanks to some special friends of our ministry, we have a matching grant in place that will double your gift. So your $50 donation becomes a $100 gift. A $500 donation becomes $1,000. You get the idea from there. To double your impact through this special matching grant opportunity, go to drjamesdobson.org or call us at 877-732-6825. Well, I'm Roger Marsh. Thanks so much for listening today. And I invite you back again next time for another edition of Dr. James Dobson's Family Talk. This has been a presentation of the Dr. James Dobson Family Institute.
On today’s edition of Family Talk, Dr. James Dobson concludes his riveting discussion with Rabbi Jonathan Cahn about his latest book entitled, The Dragon’s Prophecy. Rabbi Cahn explains how the red dragon is symbolic of Satan as described in Revelation 12, and that wars are predicted just as we are witnessing in the world today. But even in the face of such calamity, Rabbi Cahn offers hope to all believers by stating, Evil cannot last and good cannot fail. We will overcome the dragon by the blood of the Lamb! And we know that the Lamb is Jesus, Who bled and died for our sins to purchase a place in Heaven for us.
To support this ministry financially, visit: https://www.oneplace.com/donate/707/29
Today on Family Talk, Dr. James Dobson talks with New York Times best-selling author, Rabbi Jonathan Cahn, about his latest book entitled, The Dragon’s Prophecy: Israel, the Dark Resurrection, and the End of Days. Rabbi Cahn draws fascinating correlations between the words written in the Bible and actual occurrences that we have seen and are experiencing in the world. He explains how the year of Jubilee, Revelation 12, and Ezekiel 38 have prophetically pronounced Israel as the recipient of God’s blessings. Does the Bible hold the answers for our future as well?
To support this ministry financially, visit: https://www.oneplace.com/donate/707/29
