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Dr. Dobson welcomes Doug Spada, author of 'Monday Morning Atheist,' to discuss the challenge many Christians face in connecting their faith with their weekdays. Spada shares his personal journey and research findings on why work often feels disconnected from spiritual life and introduces practical steps to invite divine participation in our daily tasks. This engaging conversation encourages listeners to view their labor as a mission field and highlights the importance of an integrated life where family, faith, and work align seamlessly.
SPEAKER 03 :
Well, hello everyone. I'm James Dobson and you're listening to Family Talk, a listener-supported ministry. In fact, thank you so much for being part of that support for James Dobson Family Institute.
SPEAKER 02 :
Well, welcome to Family Talk, the broadcast ministry of the Dr. James Dobson Family Institute. I'm Roger Marsh. And today we're going to be exploring a thought provoking question with our host, psychologist and bestselling author, Dr. James Dobson. And here's the question. Have you ever felt like your faith takes a backseat when you go back to work on Monday morning? You know, like God somehow gets left at the door at the start of the work week. Well, our guest today here on Family Talk calls this being a Monday morning atheist, and he has insights that might surprise you about this phenomenon. He's found that many believers struggle with connecting their Sunday worship to their weekday work life. And today, Dr. Dobson will be talking with workplace ministry expert Doug Spada about transforming our view of work from just a job into a divine appointment. Doug is a decorated Navy veteran and the founder of Work Life, Inc. He spent years developing innovative resources to help people experience God in their workplace. And his research has uncovered fascinating insights about why Christians often compartmentalize their faith when they step back into the office. So whether you're wrestling with a career challenge or you simply just want to do more to honor God in your daily work, You are going to enjoy what we're about to get into on the topic of avoiding Monday morning atheism here on Family Talk.
SPEAKER 03 :
Well, hello, everyone, and welcome to Family Talk. I'm your host, Dr. James Dobson, and we're going to be talking about a subject that we've approached from different angles on different occasions, but we're going to be talking about living out your faith in the workplace, what it means, what God wants from us, and how attitudes toward especially family Monday, of all things, Monday, the day when there's so much depression for people. Suicide is more common on that day, and there's a lot to talk about here. Our guest is Doug Spada, who's written a book called Monday Morning Atheist, Why We Switch God Off at Work. and we'll see what he has in mind. Doug joins us from Atlanta, where he lives with his wife, Tricia, and their two boys, Ryan and Braden. Braden's 11 and Ryan is 20. You're a decorated Navy veteran and founder and CEO of Work Life Incorporated, which, I want to get this right, develops innovative resources to help people experience God while at work.
SPEAKER 01 :
Appreciate you being here. Yeah, thank you, Dr. Dobson. It's great to be here. I'm excited to actually talk about this subject matter that is so critical to people's daily life. It's very, very difficult to actually serve God and to honor God if this place that we spend over 60% of our life goes unaddressed. And for most of the body of Christ, We have trouble on the Mondays, like you said, and we struggle. We switch God off and we celebrate God on Sunday, but then sometimes let him go on Monday. So glad to be here to talk with you about that.
SPEAKER 03 :
Well, the name of the organization that you represent is called Work Life. And how does it function? What is its mission assignment?
SPEAKER 01 :
Yeah. Work Life is actually a catalyst organization. So we're at a very, very critical time in our nation. We have an open door that's just amazing. And so our purpose is actually to ignite a Monday revolution. This is helping people fight this epidemic of Monday morning atheism and step into their culture. And so, you know, Dr. Dobson, I was thinking about this, that not many people know this either. One of the greatest spiritual awakenings that ever happened in U.S. history actually started and was sustained in the workplace. In 1857, the United States was at a place, Black Monday just happened, stock market was in trouble, banks were failing, railroads were failing. And in New York City, one block from Wall Street, there was a gentleman named Jeremiah Lanphier. Jeremiah Lanphier, he was a worker, but his heart was so broken. People were out of work. They were roaming around New York City, and he went to his church. This is a perfect example of business and people in the workplace partnering with the church. He went to his church. It was a Dutch Reformed church one block from Wall Street on Fulton Street, okay? And he partnered with his church, and so he was in work and business and stuff, so he did what any worker or business would do. He put these little flyers up all over New York City for a noontime prayer meeting. This was the beginning of the Great Awakening. That's right. And so what happened is Jeremiah Lanphier published these, and nobody showed up at first. He had a crisis of belief, and I think six people showed up. And they just kept praying and praying, and he didn't know what else to do. He was just like, God, please, man, bring revival to our city and to our country and stuff. Within a month, Dr. Dobson, 10,000 people were showing up. It became so extraordinary that all the businesses in New York City shut down. I mean, you would go to them, and they would say, shut down for noontime prayer. It spread to Chicago, Cincinnati, St. Louis. And within one year, a million people came to Christ. Now, the population of the U.S. was only about 30 million at the time. So that would be equivalent today of 10 million people coming to Christ in the U.S.
SPEAKER 03 :
You know, I have an article in my file from the Denver area. I don't know what the newspaper was, but it describes the fact that there were these noontime prayer events happening. and that there was an enormous outpouring of people seeking God. That's right. I mean, wouldn't it be incredible if that happened today?
SPEAKER 01 :
People would come into New York Harbor, and cussing sailors would just start weeping and crying. I mean, there was really no preaching. It was just the Spirit of God and people humbling themselves and stuff. It's so awesome is that that started – in the workplace and got spread through the workplace. So we believe, you know, Dr. Billy Graham said this a while back that he believes the next great spiritual awakening is coming through the workplace. Because that's where we spend over 60% of our time. You can see everything we've discussed. You can see where the enemy of our soul, if there's one area he can rob. I mean, he robs the family very well, as you know. But he can rob people of their understanding their destiny and why they were created. And the stories of it, and just like we just talked about this revival story. And so, yeah, Dr. Graham said that he believes the next great spiritual awakening is happening through the workplace. So we're about trying to fuel that awakening.
SPEAKER 03 :
How does that happen, Doug?
SPEAKER 01 :
I think it happens one person at a time, first of all. It happens by churches understanding. And actually, we've seen churches do some amazing things where they start preaching the theology of work. People start understanding that. Maybe they have discipleships groups. One thing we like to challenge people to do is to take the Monday challenge. If they go to worklife.org, They can actually find something called the Monday switch. And so they can take six Mondays. So our little pitch to them, Dr. Dobson, is just, can you trust God with just six Mondays? And so the Monday challenge leads them through a process of actually working with God, not just for God. And not without God, obviously, in an atheistic kind of way, but how do you actually know it? It says he walked with God, and he was a righteous man, and he walked with God, but how do you actually walk with God? It's really exciting times in the workplace and stuff, and I think that people understanding their rightful and biblical position in the workplace and actually assuming that is very critical in our time.
SPEAKER 03 :
Is that possible in a highly antagonistic workplace? It is. Yes, it is. When there's just no evidence that God is there at all.
SPEAKER 01 :
Yeah, but when you're in a dark place – I had a situation in California once. This is a little story where I – And speaking of this, I was trying to serve God, and I was running my company, and I was trying to do a business deal with a company up in Newport Beach, California. And so what happened is I, through this negotiation, I was seeing money. I saw it was like, oh, my gosh, I got to do this deal. And God was telling me to turn away from it. Well, I sort of listened to him. I changed some clauses in a contract, and I partially obeyed him. And everybody knows, probably is listening, that partial obedience is actually disobedience, right? Right. And so within a short period of time, this company stole a million dollars from us because I disobeyed God. And so – That was a really dark place, and I should have recognized it, but I just did not. A lot of people have trouble hearing the voice of the Lord and obeying in the midst of the work environment. I mean, you've got pressure, stress. You know, when it gets darker, man, there's also the light shine brighter, too. So I think this is a time for the body of Christ to step forward. Most of the body of Christ is working, Dr. Dobson, so if we don't deal with this issue of work— You know, we can't just switch off for 60 percent of the time where we're called to influence. Where do people have their greatest influence? Their family, obviously. But whereas their work, all these people that they rub shoulders with and listen, they're speaking. Most workers are speaking the indigenous language of law or medicine or, you know, economics or whatever field of practice they're in. So anyway, I think and you and I may not be able to go into certain environments. So we have to equip the saints for the work of ministry and help them walk out their calls for Christ wherever God has called them.
SPEAKER 03 :
Doug, can you tell us more about that situation? I mean, losing a million bucks, what happened? Did your company go bankrupt? Is there anything else we can learn from that?
SPEAKER 01 :
Yeah. I think the biggest thing to learn from that was not so much the money or anything like that. It was the way that God redeemed the situation. Many months later, one of the gentlemen that orchestrated that actually asked for forgiveness. I said, I forgive you. And so what happened is I just started loving on him, and he ended up coming to Christ. Really?
SPEAKER 03 :
Yeah. Did he admit any wrongdoing?
SPEAKER 01 :
Oh, yeah. And there was some resolution in the courts and things like that. But the main important thing was his soul. So I did this in Lynchburg, Virginia a few weeks ago. I told the same story, and I said, how much is one soul worth? Would you pay $1 million – For your soul. Does God think your soul is worth $1 million? It's an interesting kind of thought when you start thinking, wow, that's interesting, man.
SPEAKER 03 :
Did you get the money back?
SPEAKER 01 :
Part of it. I mean, there's the whole court system and kind of going back and forth and different things like that.
SPEAKER 03 :
Are you friends with that individual? Yes.
SPEAKER 01 :
Yes.
SPEAKER 03 :
Did you play a role in him coming to Christ?
SPEAKER 01 :
Yes. Oh, that's what happened. I mean, once we started talking and I started loving on him, I'd come up and visit him and we'd talk about the Bible and just all kinds of stuff. And then in his office by himself, man, Jesus sort of revealed himself to him and he gave his life to Christ.
SPEAKER 03 :
You weren't angry?
SPEAKER 01 :
No. It was an extraordinary thing to see that happen.
SPEAKER 03 :
How did you start thinking about this? What led you to feeling that there was a ministry here that really people needed help with Monday and attitudes toward not just Monday, but the workplace?
SPEAKER 01 :
Yes. That came from my own brokenness. So it wasn't just an idea that came to me. It happened through, you know, trying to find solutions. Why did God create work? Why, you know, I ran a company. I had a lot of different things. I lost my family in the midst of work, and I was searching for solutions and answers. What does the Bible have to say about work?
SPEAKER 03 :
Yeah, what does it say? Summarize it for us. What is a...
SPEAKER 01 :
biblical theological perspective on work yeah i'll just i'll put it in a one-liner here real fast that work is an actual spiritual act of worship to god okay he created work He created man in His image. We're workers. And work's not a waste. There is no work that's a waste if it's done for the Lord. I don't care what it is and stuff. It's honorable, isn't it? It's honorable, yes, no matter what it is. I mean, if we're called to actually sweep the floors over here, I mean, and we're doing it unto the Lord. It brings a smile to his face. So work is not just a platform for people to go in all the time just to do evangelism or some other thing. It's the work itself that brings honor to God. Does that make sense? Of course it does. The work itself does. So even if nobody else is watching, it's how you do the work and the excellence of your work. that brings honor to God.
SPEAKER 03 :
You know, I've tried to say to the organizations that I've led, where there are a large number of people doing different jobs, that we're not on a hierarchy. I'm not sitting up here as the boss and that I have all the authority and I make all the decisions and I have all the fun. And beyond this, everybody else is subservient. I want every person who works in an organization that I have anything to do with to realize that they are important. They have a mission. They have a purpose. And if they don't do that job, something will not be completed that needs to be done. And there should be honor for everybody. That's right. Each a person because God has put them there. I really feel that way. Everybody who works here at Family Talk is here because they have a mission. The Lord has sent them here to do that job. There's nothing menial There's nothing disrespectful about it, and we need to respect each other. That's a biblical view, is it not?
SPEAKER 01 :
It is. It's also another thing that's important, Dr. Dobson, is that it's not just for organizations. I mean, there's a lot of people that work for themselves, you know, self-employed. It's not about where you're doing the work. And so this is where it affects the family a lot, right? There's a lot of work that's done. Or let's take students, for example. What is a student's primary work? It's their school at that moment, right? Yeah. People that work at home or mothers that work, I mean, raising a child, I think we all know that is a load of work, and it's honorable. So I think for all those stay-at-home moms and the wives that are listening, too, it's very, very important to understand that your work is valuable to God.
SPEAKER 03 :
You were mentioning earlier when we were off mic that there are more than 90 million people in America who don't have work. For them, finding a job is the assignment. That is the work. It's not that they sit home and watch daytime television. They have a job to do, which is to go out and make themselves available in the workplace. We all have work to do, right?
SPEAKER 01 :
That's right. Yes, everybody does. And I'm just thinking about the family here for a second. The earlier we teach our children – the biblical meaning of work we won't have to keep repeating this over and over right we allow our kids to grow up not understanding why God created work and they just think it's a job and we keep repeating the same thing so teach your children early and often That work is honorable, and you're called by God to work. We're never more like God.
SPEAKER 03 :
That's absolutely true, but you're working against human nature. The natural view of a child is that work is to get out of. Work is misery. Work is punishment. Work is something that's imposed on you. But the truth of the matter is you have to teach children that work is honorable and what they're doing at home, even if it's taking out the trash. This is a God assignment. Do it unto the Lord.
SPEAKER 01 :
Do everything you do unto the Lord. And I think children... obviously are going to take the key from their mother and father. Right. So they're going to watch how how we actually are responding to to work and how we process work, how we they overhear our conversations. Right. About work issues and other people and stuff. So I think, you know, if we get our thinking right, I think that our children will will pick that up.
SPEAKER 03 :
Now, going back to the book that you've written, I made reference to it in the introduction. The title of it is Monday Morning Atheist, Why We Switch God Off at Work. this implies that you go to church on the weekends, Sunday or Saturday night, whatever it is, and you worship God there. And then you get up on Monday morning, and first of all, you don't want to be doing what you're doing, and you dread going back to that workplace, and you have a bad attitude about it, and you don't comprehend that work is an assignment from God, and He has something He wants you to do there. for one thing, to minister to each other and to care for one another that you're working with. But the other one is to see this as a divine appointment. I believe that's one of your themes, and that the Monday morning atheist doesn't get that.
SPEAKER 01 :
That's right, yeah. Sunday's like a – divine commissioning, right? But yeah, that's the story of my life. I mean, Sunday was a – that was the spiritual time, and then I wanted to apply my faith at work and understand that, but I just – sometimes accidentally. I just – it'd be two hours, and we all know what that feels like, right? You're two hours into your workday, and you're like – Where's God in this, right? Clock watchers. Nothing worse than that. That's right. Oh, my goodness. I got two more hours here. That's right. That's when you know that something's wrong with the way you're viewing work or the purpose of work. So, yeah, but it's exciting. I think instead of just talking about the stuff that's kind of the downer, I mean – When you can experience God through your work and actually, I mean, just like, you know, if you think about some of your greatest spiritual encounters with God, imagine looking at work that way and actually being able to go to work and actually saying, OK, God, let's go to work. Right. You're getting up on Monday. Thank God it's Monday. It's not thank God it's Friday, but thank God it's Monday. And we approach work and we – yes, it's going to be – work's hard. We've got to deal with people. We've got to deal with a lot of stuff. But I think if we can keep God first, keep him front of mind and know that our work is actually worship to him, knowing that he is a worker, he's actually working in and through us. We're carrying the kingdom of God with us as we come into those environments. So even if you walk into a workplace that you think is a dark environment – Just know that the kingdom of God is actually – it has to wake up in that place. You're bringing God into that place by showing up.
SPEAKER 03 :
Well, you haven't always felt the way you do now about work. No. And you kind of walked a dark path early on. Apparently, your marriage was not going well. Mm-hmm. And eventually you separated. Thank God that he's brought you back together. How many years since you recovered each other?
SPEAKER 01 :
Trish and I have been married 31 years. That happened about 18 years ago. Yeah, that was very painful, but— It's one of those things where you're thankful for it, but you don't want to do it again. You know what I mean? You're like, God really reorganized our life and spoke to the deep wounds and the pain in our life.
SPEAKER 03 :
Now that domestic difficulty spilled over into the workplace, wherever you were working.
SPEAKER 01 :
Yeah, and I think that's something I think for the audience to really understand that To quote another friend of Family Talk, Ken Eldred, we have to live an integrated life, right? It's not separated over here. That's the core of integrity, right? So you can't separate family over here and work over here and recreation and church over here. I mean, they all bleed together. It's almost – You know, we write in the book something. It's like the old TV dinners. You remember the old TV dinners, you know? Too well. Yeah, the peas, and you would have this, and then you would cook them. And I don't know if they got better. I haven't eaten one for a long time. But the stuff would sort of kind of bleed over into each other, right? The cherry juice would get over into the peas and stuff. But that's honestly the way God wants to deliver life in an integrated kind of way. So work affects family. And family affects work, right? You don't just check it at the door and stuff. And anybody that's been preoccupied and distracted and not able to focus on their kids or their family know what that's like. The communication breaks down. and things like that. So they all affect each other.
SPEAKER 03 :
Doug, I hate to interrupt this conversation because obviously I'm enjoying it so much. I appreciate your bringing that subject to us for a fresh look. at what it really means to serve God in the workplace. And I thank you for writing this book and for calling it to our attention. You flew all the way from Atlanta, and I appreciate you being here. But we're on a roll. Let's just pick up where we leave off today and talk some more about this matter of what God would have us do and the attitude he would have us bring to the workplace.
SPEAKER 01 :
Yes, I've loved it, and I would love to do that.
SPEAKER 03 :
Let's do it again. The title of the book, again, is Monday Morning Atheist, Why We Switch God Off at Work and How You Can Fix It. Doug Spada and your co-author, Dave Scott. Thank you for being with us. Tell Tricia we appreciate her allowing you to come here and next time bring her with you. Yeah, thank you. Appreciate everything you've done, Dr. Dobson.
SPEAKER 02 :
You've been listening to Dr. James Dobson's Family Talk and a practical conversation featuring Dr. Dobson and his guest, Doug Spada, about finding God's purpose in your work. As we continue this journey into the new year, I hope that today's broadcast has given you fresh insights to help make this your best year ever. Now, if you missed any part of today's program or you want to share it with somebody who needs this message, visit us at drjamesdobson.org forward slash familytalk.com. Once you're there, you'll also find the link for Doug Spada's book called Monday Morning Atheist. And be sure to join us again next time for part two of this important conversation when Doug returns to discuss how we can truly experience God's presence in our daily work. Now in closing, I want to express our deepest thanks to our faithful supporters who make this ministry possible. Your consistent generosity allows us to reach countless families with godly wisdom and encouragement. During these changing times, your support ensures that this source of biblical truth remains strong and available to all who seek it. So remember, you can make a secure donation when you go to drjamesdobson.org. You can give a gift over the phone when you call 877-732-6825. or write to us at P.O. Box 39000, Colorado Springs, Colorado, the zip code 80949. Well, I'm Roger Marsh, inviting you to join us again next time as we continue to discover how to see work as a divine appointment. That's coming up right here on the next edition of Dr. James Dobson's Family Talk. This has been a presentation of the Dr. James Dobson Family Institute.
Family Talk is a Christian non-profit organization located in Colorado Springs, Colorado. Founded in 2010 by Dr. James Dobson, the ministry promotes and teaches biblical principles that support marriage, family, and child-development. Since its inception, Family Talk has served millions of families with broadcasts, monthly newsletters, feature articles, videos, blogs, books and other resources available on demand via its website, mobile apps, and social media platforms. The Dr. James Dobson Family Institute (JDFI) is a Christian non-profit organization located in Colorado Springs, Colorado. Founded initially as Family Talk in 2010 by Dr. James Dobson, the ministry promotes and teaches biblical principles that support marriage, family, and child-development. Since its inception, Family Talk has served families with broadcasts, monthly newsletters, feature articles, videos, blogs, books, and other resources available on demand via its website, mobile apps, and social media platforms. In 2017, the ministry rebranded under JDFI to expand its four core ministry divisions consisting of Family Talk, the Dobson Policy and Education Centers, and the Dobson Digital Library. Dr. Dobson's flagship program, "Family Talk," is aired on more than 1,300 terrestrial radio outlets and numerous digital channels that reach millions of people each month.
Dr. Dobson welcomes Doug Spada, author of 'Monday Morning Atheist,' to discuss the challenge many Christians face in connecting their faith with their weekdays. Spada shares his personal journey and research findings on why work often feels disconnected from spiritual life and introduces practical steps to invite divine participation in our daily tasks. This engaging conversation encourages listeners to view their labor as a mission field and highlights the importance of an integrated life where family, faith, and work align seamlessly.
SPEAKER 03 :
Well, hello everyone. I'm James Dobson and you're listening to Family Talk, a listener-supported ministry. In fact, thank you so much for being part of that support for James Dobson Family Institute.
SPEAKER 02 :
Well, welcome to Family Talk, the broadcast ministry of the Dr. James Dobson Family Institute. I'm Roger Marsh. And today we're going to be exploring a thought provoking question with our host, psychologist and bestselling author, Dr. James Dobson. And here's the question. Have you ever felt like your faith takes a backseat when you go back to work on Monday morning? You know, like God somehow gets left at the door at the start of the work week. Well, our guest today here on Family Talk calls this being a Monday morning atheist, and he has insights that might surprise you about this phenomenon. He's found that many believers struggle with connecting their Sunday worship to their weekday work life. And today, Dr. Dobson will be talking with workplace ministry expert Doug Spada about transforming our view of work from just a job into a divine appointment. Doug is a decorated Navy veteran and the founder of Work Life, Inc. He spent years developing innovative resources to help people experience God in their workplace. And his research has uncovered fascinating insights about why Christians often compartmentalize their faith when they step back into the office. So whether you're wrestling with a career challenge or you simply just want to do more to honor God in your daily work, You are going to enjoy what we're about to get into on the topic of avoiding Monday morning atheism here on Family Talk.
SPEAKER 03 :
Well, hello, everyone, and welcome to Family Talk. I'm your host, Dr. James Dobson, and we're going to be talking about a subject that we've approached from different angles on different occasions, but we're going to be talking about living out your faith in the workplace, what it means, what God wants from us, and how attitudes toward especially family Monday, of all things, Monday, the day when there's so much depression for people. Suicide is more common on that day, and there's a lot to talk about here. Our guest is Doug Spada, who's written a book called Monday Morning Atheist, Why We Switch God Off at Work. and we'll see what he has in mind. Doug joins us from Atlanta, where he lives with his wife, Tricia, and their two boys, Ryan and Braden. Braden's 11 and Ryan is 20. You're a decorated Navy veteran and founder and CEO of Work Life Incorporated, which, I want to get this right, develops innovative resources to help people experience God while at work.
SPEAKER 01 :
Appreciate you being here. Yeah, thank you, Dr. Dobson. It's great to be here. I'm excited to actually talk about this subject matter that is so critical to people's daily life. It's very, very difficult to actually serve God and to honor God if this place that we spend over 60% of our life goes unaddressed. And for most of the body of Christ, We have trouble on the Mondays, like you said, and we struggle. We switch God off and we celebrate God on Sunday, but then sometimes let him go on Monday. So glad to be here to talk with you about that.
SPEAKER 03 :
Well, the name of the organization that you represent is called Work Life. And how does it function? What is its mission assignment?
SPEAKER 01 :
Yeah. Work Life is actually a catalyst organization. So we're at a very, very critical time in our nation. We have an open door that's just amazing. And so our purpose is actually to ignite a Monday revolution. This is helping people fight this epidemic of Monday morning atheism and step into their culture. And so, you know, Dr. Dobson, I was thinking about this, that not many people know this either. One of the greatest spiritual awakenings that ever happened in U.S. history actually started and was sustained in the workplace. In 1857, the United States was at a place, Black Monday just happened, stock market was in trouble, banks were failing, railroads were failing. And in New York City, one block from Wall Street, there was a gentleman named Jeremiah Lanphier. Jeremiah Lanphier, he was a worker, but his heart was so broken. People were out of work. They were roaming around New York City, and he went to his church. This is a perfect example of business and people in the workplace partnering with the church. He went to his church. It was a Dutch Reformed church one block from Wall Street on Fulton Street, okay? And he partnered with his church, and so he was in work and business and stuff, so he did what any worker or business would do. He put these little flyers up all over New York City for a noontime prayer meeting. This was the beginning of the Great Awakening. That's right. And so what happened is Jeremiah Lanphier published these, and nobody showed up at first. He had a crisis of belief, and I think six people showed up. And they just kept praying and praying, and he didn't know what else to do. He was just like, God, please, man, bring revival to our city and to our country and stuff. Within a month, Dr. Dobson, 10,000 people were showing up. It became so extraordinary that all the businesses in New York City shut down. I mean, you would go to them, and they would say, shut down for noontime prayer. It spread to Chicago, Cincinnati, St. Louis. And within one year, a million people came to Christ. Now, the population of the U.S. was only about 30 million at the time. So that would be equivalent today of 10 million people coming to Christ in the U.S.
SPEAKER 03 :
You know, I have an article in my file from the Denver area. I don't know what the newspaper was, but it describes the fact that there were these noontime prayer events happening. and that there was an enormous outpouring of people seeking God. That's right. I mean, wouldn't it be incredible if that happened today?
SPEAKER 01 :
People would come into New York Harbor, and cussing sailors would just start weeping and crying. I mean, there was really no preaching. It was just the Spirit of God and people humbling themselves and stuff. It's so awesome is that that started – in the workplace and got spread through the workplace. So we believe, you know, Dr. Billy Graham said this a while back that he believes the next great spiritual awakening is coming through the workplace. Because that's where we spend over 60% of our time. You can see everything we've discussed. You can see where the enemy of our soul, if there's one area he can rob. I mean, he robs the family very well, as you know. But he can rob people of their understanding their destiny and why they were created. And the stories of it, and just like we just talked about this revival story. And so, yeah, Dr. Graham said that he believes the next great spiritual awakening is happening through the workplace. So we're about trying to fuel that awakening.
SPEAKER 03 :
How does that happen, Doug?
SPEAKER 01 :
I think it happens one person at a time, first of all. It happens by churches understanding. And actually, we've seen churches do some amazing things where they start preaching the theology of work. People start understanding that. Maybe they have discipleships groups. One thing we like to challenge people to do is to take the Monday challenge. If they go to worklife.org, They can actually find something called the Monday switch. And so they can take six Mondays. So our little pitch to them, Dr. Dobson, is just, can you trust God with just six Mondays? And so the Monday challenge leads them through a process of actually working with God, not just for God. And not without God, obviously, in an atheistic kind of way, but how do you actually know it? It says he walked with God, and he was a righteous man, and he walked with God, but how do you actually walk with God? It's really exciting times in the workplace and stuff, and I think that people understanding their rightful and biblical position in the workplace and actually assuming that is very critical in our time.
SPEAKER 03 :
Is that possible in a highly antagonistic workplace? It is. Yes, it is. When there's just no evidence that God is there at all.
SPEAKER 01 :
Yeah, but when you're in a dark place – I had a situation in California once. This is a little story where I – And speaking of this, I was trying to serve God, and I was running my company, and I was trying to do a business deal with a company up in Newport Beach, California. And so what happened is I, through this negotiation, I was seeing money. I saw it was like, oh, my gosh, I got to do this deal. And God was telling me to turn away from it. Well, I sort of listened to him. I changed some clauses in a contract, and I partially obeyed him. And everybody knows, probably is listening, that partial obedience is actually disobedience, right? Right. And so within a short period of time, this company stole a million dollars from us because I disobeyed God. And so – That was a really dark place, and I should have recognized it, but I just did not. A lot of people have trouble hearing the voice of the Lord and obeying in the midst of the work environment. I mean, you've got pressure, stress. You know, when it gets darker, man, there's also the light shine brighter, too. So I think this is a time for the body of Christ to step forward. Most of the body of Christ is working, Dr. Dobson, so if we don't deal with this issue of work— You know, we can't just switch off for 60 percent of the time where we're called to influence. Where do people have their greatest influence? Their family, obviously. But whereas their work, all these people that they rub shoulders with and listen, they're speaking. Most workers are speaking the indigenous language of law or medicine or, you know, economics or whatever field of practice they're in. So anyway, I think and you and I may not be able to go into certain environments. So we have to equip the saints for the work of ministry and help them walk out their calls for Christ wherever God has called them.
SPEAKER 03 :
Doug, can you tell us more about that situation? I mean, losing a million bucks, what happened? Did your company go bankrupt? Is there anything else we can learn from that?
SPEAKER 01 :
Yeah. I think the biggest thing to learn from that was not so much the money or anything like that. It was the way that God redeemed the situation. Many months later, one of the gentlemen that orchestrated that actually asked for forgiveness. I said, I forgive you. And so what happened is I just started loving on him, and he ended up coming to Christ. Really?
SPEAKER 03 :
Yeah. Did he admit any wrongdoing?
SPEAKER 01 :
Oh, yeah. And there was some resolution in the courts and things like that. But the main important thing was his soul. So I did this in Lynchburg, Virginia a few weeks ago. I told the same story, and I said, how much is one soul worth? Would you pay $1 million – For your soul. Does God think your soul is worth $1 million? It's an interesting kind of thought when you start thinking, wow, that's interesting, man.
SPEAKER 03 :
Did you get the money back?
SPEAKER 01 :
Part of it. I mean, there's the whole court system and kind of going back and forth and different things like that.
SPEAKER 03 :
Are you friends with that individual? Yes.
SPEAKER 01 :
Yes.
SPEAKER 03 :
Did you play a role in him coming to Christ?
SPEAKER 01 :
Yes. Oh, that's what happened. I mean, once we started talking and I started loving on him, I'd come up and visit him and we'd talk about the Bible and just all kinds of stuff. And then in his office by himself, man, Jesus sort of revealed himself to him and he gave his life to Christ.
SPEAKER 03 :
You weren't angry?
SPEAKER 01 :
No. It was an extraordinary thing to see that happen.
SPEAKER 03 :
How did you start thinking about this? What led you to feeling that there was a ministry here that really people needed help with Monday and attitudes toward not just Monday, but the workplace?
SPEAKER 01 :
Yes. That came from my own brokenness. So it wasn't just an idea that came to me. It happened through, you know, trying to find solutions. Why did God create work? Why, you know, I ran a company. I had a lot of different things. I lost my family in the midst of work, and I was searching for solutions and answers. What does the Bible have to say about work?
SPEAKER 03 :
Yeah, what does it say? Summarize it for us. What is a...
SPEAKER 01 :
biblical theological perspective on work yeah i'll just i'll put it in a one-liner here real fast that work is an actual spiritual act of worship to god okay he created work He created man in His image. We're workers. And work's not a waste. There is no work that's a waste if it's done for the Lord. I don't care what it is and stuff. It's honorable, isn't it? It's honorable, yes, no matter what it is. I mean, if we're called to actually sweep the floors over here, I mean, and we're doing it unto the Lord. It brings a smile to his face. So work is not just a platform for people to go in all the time just to do evangelism or some other thing. It's the work itself that brings honor to God. Does that make sense? Of course it does. The work itself does. So even if nobody else is watching, it's how you do the work and the excellence of your work. that brings honor to God.
SPEAKER 03 :
You know, I've tried to say to the organizations that I've led, where there are a large number of people doing different jobs, that we're not on a hierarchy. I'm not sitting up here as the boss and that I have all the authority and I make all the decisions and I have all the fun. And beyond this, everybody else is subservient. I want every person who works in an organization that I have anything to do with to realize that they are important. They have a mission. They have a purpose. And if they don't do that job, something will not be completed that needs to be done. And there should be honor for everybody. That's right. Each a person because God has put them there. I really feel that way. Everybody who works here at Family Talk is here because they have a mission. The Lord has sent them here to do that job. There's nothing menial There's nothing disrespectful about it, and we need to respect each other. That's a biblical view, is it not?
SPEAKER 01 :
It is. It's also another thing that's important, Dr. Dobson, is that it's not just for organizations. I mean, there's a lot of people that work for themselves, you know, self-employed. It's not about where you're doing the work. And so this is where it affects the family a lot, right? There's a lot of work that's done. Or let's take students, for example. What is a student's primary work? It's their school at that moment, right? Yeah. People that work at home or mothers that work, I mean, raising a child, I think we all know that is a load of work, and it's honorable. So I think for all those stay-at-home moms and the wives that are listening, too, it's very, very important to understand that your work is valuable to God.
SPEAKER 03 :
You were mentioning earlier when we were off mic that there are more than 90 million people in America who don't have work. For them, finding a job is the assignment. That is the work. It's not that they sit home and watch daytime television. They have a job to do, which is to go out and make themselves available in the workplace. We all have work to do, right?
SPEAKER 01 :
That's right. Yes, everybody does. And I'm just thinking about the family here for a second. The earlier we teach our children – the biblical meaning of work we won't have to keep repeating this over and over right we allow our kids to grow up not understanding why God created work and they just think it's a job and we keep repeating the same thing so teach your children early and often That work is honorable, and you're called by God to work. We're never more like God.
SPEAKER 03 :
That's absolutely true, but you're working against human nature. The natural view of a child is that work is to get out of. Work is misery. Work is punishment. Work is something that's imposed on you. But the truth of the matter is you have to teach children that work is honorable and what they're doing at home, even if it's taking out the trash. This is a God assignment. Do it unto the Lord.
SPEAKER 01 :
Do everything you do unto the Lord. And I think children... obviously are going to take the key from their mother and father. Right. So they're going to watch how how we actually are responding to to work and how we process work, how we they overhear our conversations. Right. About work issues and other people and stuff. So I think, you know, if we get our thinking right, I think that our children will will pick that up.
SPEAKER 03 :
Now, going back to the book that you've written, I made reference to it in the introduction. The title of it is Monday Morning Atheist, Why We Switch God Off at Work. this implies that you go to church on the weekends, Sunday or Saturday night, whatever it is, and you worship God there. And then you get up on Monday morning, and first of all, you don't want to be doing what you're doing, and you dread going back to that workplace, and you have a bad attitude about it, and you don't comprehend that work is an assignment from God, and He has something He wants you to do there. for one thing, to minister to each other and to care for one another that you're working with. But the other one is to see this as a divine appointment. I believe that's one of your themes, and that the Monday morning atheist doesn't get that.
SPEAKER 01 :
That's right, yeah. Sunday's like a – divine commissioning, right? But yeah, that's the story of my life. I mean, Sunday was a – that was the spiritual time, and then I wanted to apply my faith at work and understand that, but I just – sometimes accidentally. I just – it'd be two hours, and we all know what that feels like, right? You're two hours into your workday, and you're like – Where's God in this, right? Clock watchers. Nothing worse than that. That's right. Oh, my goodness. I got two more hours here. That's right. That's when you know that something's wrong with the way you're viewing work or the purpose of work. So, yeah, but it's exciting. I think instead of just talking about the stuff that's kind of the downer, I mean – When you can experience God through your work and actually, I mean, just like, you know, if you think about some of your greatest spiritual encounters with God, imagine looking at work that way and actually being able to go to work and actually saying, OK, God, let's go to work. Right. You're getting up on Monday. Thank God it's Monday. It's not thank God it's Friday, but thank God it's Monday. And we approach work and we – yes, it's going to be – work's hard. We've got to deal with people. We've got to deal with a lot of stuff. But I think if we can keep God first, keep him front of mind and know that our work is actually worship to him, knowing that he is a worker, he's actually working in and through us. We're carrying the kingdom of God with us as we come into those environments. So even if you walk into a workplace that you think is a dark environment – Just know that the kingdom of God is actually – it has to wake up in that place. You're bringing God into that place by showing up.
SPEAKER 03 :
Well, you haven't always felt the way you do now about work. No. And you kind of walked a dark path early on. Apparently, your marriage was not going well. Mm-hmm. And eventually you separated. Thank God that he's brought you back together. How many years since you recovered each other?
SPEAKER 01 :
Trish and I have been married 31 years. That happened about 18 years ago. Yeah, that was very painful, but— It's one of those things where you're thankful for it, but you don't want to do it again. You know what I mean? You're like, God really reorganized our life and spoke to the deep wounds and the pain in our life.
SPEAKER 03 :
Now that domestic difficulty spilled over into the workplace, wherever you were working.
SPEAKER 01 :
Yeah, and I think that's something I think for the audience to really understand that To quote another friend of Family Talk, Ken Eldred, we have to live an integrated life, right? It's not separated over here. That's the core of integrity, right? So you can't separate family over here and work over here and recreation and church over here. I mean, they all bleed together. It's almost – You know, we write in the book something. It's like the old TV dinners. You remember the old TV dinners, you know? Too well. Yeah, the peas, and you would have this, and then you would cook them. And I don't know if they got better. I haven't eaten one for a long time. But the stuff would sort of kind of bleed over into each other, right? The cherry juice would get over into the peas and stuff. But that's honestly the way God wants to deliver life in an integrated kind of way. So work affects family. And family affects work, right? You don't just check it at the door and stuff. And anybody that's been preoccupied and distracted and not able to focus on their kids or their family know what that's like. The communication breaks down. and things like that. So they all affect each other.
SPEAKER 03 :
Doug, I hate to interrupt this conversation because obviously I'm enjoying it so much. I appreciate your bringing that subject to us for a fresh look. at what it really means to serve God in the workplace. And I thank you for writing this book and for calling it to our attention. You flew all the way from Atlanta, and I appreciate you being here. But we're on a roll. Let's just pick up where we leave off today and talk some more about this matter of what God would have us do and the attitude he would have us bring to the workplace.
SPEAKER 01 :
Yes, I've loved it, and I would love to do that.
SPEAKER 03 :
Let's do it again. The title of the book, again, is Monday Morning Atheist, Why We Switch God Off at Work and How You Can Fix It. Doug Spada and your co-author, Dave Scott. Thank you for being with us. Tell Tricia we appreciate her allowing you to come here and next time bring her with you. Yeah, thank you. Appreciate everything you've done, Dr. Dobson.
SPEAKER 02 :
You've been listening to Dr. James Dobson's Family Talk and a practical conversation featuring Dr. Dobson and his guest, Doug Spada, about finding God's purpose in your work. As we continue this journey into the new year, I hope that today's broadcast has given you fresh insights to help make this your best year ever. Now, if you missed any part of today's program or you want to share it with somebody who needs this message, visit us at drjamesdobson.org forward slash familytalk.com. Once you're there, you'll also find the link for Doug Spada's book called Monday Morning Atheist. And be sure to join us again next time for part two of this important conversation when Doug returns to discuss how we can truly experience God's presence in our daily work. Now in closing, I want to express our deepest thanks to our faithful supporters who make this ministry possible. Your consistent generosity allows us to reach countless families with godly wisdom and encouragement. During these changing times, your support ensures that this source of biblical truth remains strong and available to all who seek it. So remember, you can make a secure donation when you go to drjamesdobson.org. You can give a gift over the phone when you call 877-732-6825. or write to us at P.O. Box 39000, Colorado Springs, Colorado, the zip code 80949. Well, I'm Roger Marsh, inviting you to join us again next time as we continue to discover how to see work as a divine appointment. That's coming up right here on the next edition of Dr. James Dobson's Family Talk. This has been a presentation of the Dr. James Dobson Family Institute.
On today’s edition of Family Talk, Gary Bauer concludes his powerful conversation with Pastor John Amanchukwu (pronounced ah-mahn-chew-kwoo). They discuss Pastor John’s new documentary film, 22 Words, as well as the ramifications of taking God out of public schools. Galatians 6:7 says, Do not be deceived: God cannot be mocked. A man reaps what he sows. To support this ministry financially, visit: https://www.oneplace.com/donate/707/29
SPEAKER 03 :
Welcome everyone to Family Talk. It's a ministry of the James Dobson Family Institute supported by listeners just like you. I'm Dr. James Dobson and I'm thrilled that you've joined us.
SPEAKER 01 :
Well, welcome back to Family Talk, the broadcast ministry of the Dr. James Dobson Family Institute. I'm Roger Marsh, and today we're diving back into one of the most important issues facing our nation right now, and that is the education and well-being of our children. Our guest here on the program once again is Pastor John Amwanchukwu. who's become a powerful voice for both educational excellence and biblical values in our public schools. He's traveled to school board meetings all across America, standing up for academic achievement and traditional values. Recently, John released a documentary called 22 Words. In it, he takes a close look at a turning point in American education, the removal of prayer from public schools based on a New York court case stemming all the way back to 1962. In our conversation, John Amonchukwu will reveal how this decision still affects children today and offers real solutions for parents and communities who want to create positive change. By the way, if you're interested in hosting a screening of this powerful documentary called 22 Words, You'll find that information at drjamesdobson.org forward slash family talk. During our conversation today, you'll hear Pastor John Amonchukwu's vision for returning to core principles in education. He will share how parents and communities can work together to make sure every child gets the quality education they deserve. When we left off on yesterday's program, our own Gary Bauer was talking with Pastor Aman Chukwu, who was sharing how he was physically removed from school board meetings. His offense? Simply reading aloud from books that children can find right now in their school libraries. Many of them are assigned reading projects. Today, he'll continue his remarkable story, starting with the time Baltimore officials declared a citywide emergency, all because a conservative black pastor wanted to discuss student test scores.
SPEAKER 02 :
For them to try to arrest me and to grab me by my arm, I've been kicked out of six school board meetings by police officers.
SPEAKER 03 :
Incredible.
SPEAKER 02 :
Right? I went to Maryland. Let me share this. I went to Maryland and spoke at a school board meeting. Maryland has a black governor. A black mayor in Baltimore, predominantly black school board, a CEO of schools that makes four hundred and seventy nine thousand dollars a year. The CEO of schools. But watch this. The kids can't read on grade level and they can't do basic math on grade level.
SPEAKER 03 :
But Pastor, can they name the 52 genders? That's the important thing.
SPEAKER 02 :
They can do that. They can talk about being gender fluid and all of that stuff. You know, they can talk about intersectionality and critical race theory, but, you know, they can't read and do basic sound math. And so I spoke of this. I went to that school board meeting to speak. And do you not know that they called a citywide emergency on me?
SPEAKER 03 :
Really?
SPEAKER 02 :
They said I was a threat. And so in comes law enforcement, and they say we have to shut this school board meeting down because there's a threat in this room.
SPEAKER 03 :
In Baltimore.
SPEAKER 02 :
In Baltimore. And here's the thing. What was the issue? You know, I guess I was the right color in Baltimore, but I had the wrong values, the wrong belief system. And so therefore, they don't want to hear from a black Christian conservative pastor who And so they shut the school board meeting down and said that we have a citywide emergency. I can't say that I've seen it all, but I've seen a lot.
SPEAKER 03 :
Well, in the book that you released earlier this year, Hoodwink, you obviously deal with this issue of what's going on in our schools. But in the broader sense, you outline I think it was 10 lies that are infecting the American debate that sort of insinuated themselves into our culture. Can you name some of those for us? Because I think you hit a lot of the things that the nation is so divided about.
SPEAKER 02 :
First and foremost, the title of that book is Old Foggy, right? You know, the term hoodwinked, that's an old foggy term, you know, but it means to be blindfolded to the point where you can't see any light. And that's where we are in this culture. So many people are duped and have been hoodwinked solely because they are in a position where they can't be exposed to truth or they have rejected truth. And so the first lie that I deal with is that the lie that America is a racist nation. And we can simply dispel that by first acknowledging that, yes, America had a rocky start. Slavery was evil. The Jim Crow era was evil. However, since then, we've had our first black president. Barack Obama was elected to office in 2008 and in 2012. Blacks make up only 13% of the overall population in America. So in order for a Black man to win an election, a presidential race, it's going to take a lot of white people voting for them. Number one.
SPEAKER 03 :
Yes.
SPEAKER 02 :
And then when you look at the income earning potential in America, Indians are the highest earners in America.
SPEAKER 03 :
Folks that migrated here or were born here from India, the nation, right? Yes.
SPEAKER 02 :
Yes, indeed, they are. And then for the middle class, you know, your main average earners who supersede everyone else are Asians. And so why is it in whites? Could it be that what's stressed at home oftentimes dictates the success of a child? And so one of the things that has truly impacted the black community and put us on a slippery slope has been the fact that when Lyndon B. Johnson came along with the Great Society Plan, to remove the black man from the home and replace him with a $300 to $400 check, that's what broke the back of the sound structure in the black community from the 1890s all the way up to the 1950s. The black marriage rate rivaled that of whites.
SPEAKER 03 :
Pastor, this is so important. Yes. not have a father at home who goes to work every day, but nobody in the neighborhood has that. And if you don't have that to see and to have as a role model for the importance of work, it doesn't matter if you are white, Asian, whatever you are, that child is going to struggle to be successful. Now, single parents can do an incredible job and beat the odds. And two parents can fail. But if you just look at the overall averages when you're making public policy, we should want every child to have a mom and dad at home.
SPEAKER 02 :
Yes, I agree. We definitely should. And, you know, I'll say it this way. The Bible says that if a man doesn't work, neither shall he eat. And if you can't take care of your family, you're worse than an infidel. We hear about the wealth gap so much in America, and there are impacts there stemming from the past. There's a modicum of that, but the main thing that has positioned the Black community in a place where many are economically disadvantaged. It's because of the fact that 70 to 80% of Black homes are led by a single parent, oftentimes a mother. Black women make up 8% of the overall population in America. Black men make up 5%. So that means that the black community is a matriarchal community. Interesting. And a matriarchal community cannot compete with a patriarchal community. You know, even when we have this conversation, I have to bring up the fact that I was very upset with the Black Lives Matters movement and how they sought to destroy the nuclear family. And they did that primarily because BLM was founded by three women who were of the lesbian persuasion. Yes. At the end of the day, they don't want any man, let alone a black man, right? Yeah. And so within their organization, they set up a structure where they sought to destroy the nuclear family. Well, if you're going to further decimate the black community, destroying the nuclear family is going to do that. Why not empower the nuclear family? And that's why I'm excited right now because President Trump and his administration, they're going to defund Planned Parenthood. You know, an organization that is known, it's documented, its own record that their founder was a racist and that she wanted to destroy the black population. You know, in my book, I deal with the lie that if you are pro-life, then you have a white evangelical worldview, you know? Yes. And so why is it that whites have to be labeled as, you know, having a white evangelical worldview? Because they are pro-life. That makes no sense. The main people who are being killed at abortuaries around this country are Black babies. 28 million Black people are missing since the inception of Roe v. Wade.
SPEAKER 03 :
The numbers are almost impossible to get our arms around. Outgoing President Biden just the other day gave the highest civilian honor that can be awarded by the United States to Cecilia Richards, who was for 12 years the president of Planned Parenthood. And here he gave her this great civilian honor because she – he said for her leadership in human rights. Human rights, he's oversaw the denial of the most basic and important right of all, the right to life. If you don't have the right to life, the other rights are sort of beside the point. But – Pastor, your documentary is just fantastic. And am I correct about this? It's called 22 Words?
SPEAKER 02 :
That's right. That's right.
SPEAKER 03 :
Okay. So it's an attention getter, you know, and I want to be sure we have a chance to talk about that. 22 Words, well, what in the world is that about? Well, it ends up that when all this junk was coming into the classroom— At least in part, it was coming into the classroom because a vacuum had been left. And that vacuum was when our country, all the way back in the 60s, decided to take voluntary school prayer and then the next year Bible reading out of the classroom. And so tell us about that original case and why you referred to 22 words. I think most people— think that those school prayers decades ago were, you know, Bible-thumping, praise the Lord, Jesus is my Savior prayers. But they weren't, were they, Pastor? That was not what school prayer was.
SPEAKER 02 :
You're right. You hit the nail on the head. In 1962, because of the Engel v. Vitale court case where the Supreme Court ruled to ban school-sponsored prayer, there was a simple, non-denominational, non-proselytizing prayer that was removed. You know, every day kids would be led to recite this in their classroom. And the prayer says, Almighty God, we acknowledge our dependence upon thee. Hmm. And we beg thy blessings upon us, our parents, our teachers, and our country. Just a simple prayer. The prayer does not invoke the name of Allah, the name of Buddha, or Reverend Sun Yung Moon, or even the name of Jesus, although we do know as Christians who Almighty God is. Right. But this prayer was banned. And according to former Secretary of Education William Bennett, he said that as a result of school-sponsored prayer being banned, divorce doubled from 1960 to 1990. Teenage pregnancy went up 200%. Teen suicide increased by 300%. And violent crime went up 500%.
SPEAKER 03 :
You know, Pastor, it's interesting you would quote Bill Bennett because when Bill Bennett was Secretary of Education under Ronald Reagan, I was the Undersecretary of Education under Bill Bennett. I was the number two guy in the department.
SPEAKER 01 :
No way!
SPEAKER 03 :
Yes, and he and I did our best to get rid of that department because we could already see That the bureaucrats in that department were leftists and they were out to run the school districts all over America. We couldn't get the votes in Congress to do it. But Bennett and I both felt very strongly about this. It's not that little prayer would turn anybody into a Christian. Right. But what it did was signal that adults thought that finding God and seeking God was something important, and the child can make that journey on their own. It's the same way that saying the Pledge of Allegiance to the flag doesn't turn a child into a patriot. But again, it's adults signaling that child that your country's important, and we hope that you'll love your country. Right. So it still leaves all of that up to the child. And we really made a colossal mistake in the 1960s, and we're still paying the price for it.
SPEAKER 02 :
Yes, I agree. And much can be said about that decision. You know, we've gone from prayer in the public school system now to porn. Mm. We've gone from prayer to now transgenderism being pushed upon our children and men coming into schools, long wigs, fishnet stockings, with a beard, but given access to the tender plants of society. Yes. Right? Young image bearers. They are now confused. And this is why we see a spike in the number of children who are battling gender dysphoria. You know, I was just recently in Albuquerque, New Mexico on this past Wednesday, had to speak at a school board meeting there. And do you not know that Albuquerque, New Mexico, they have the worst test scores all across the board for education in America?
SPEAKER 03 :
That's saying something. They got a lot of competition for that worst scores, unfortunately.
SPEAKER 02 :
There are young men who go to school with thongs on, with crop top shirts. Teachers reported this to me. And you can't say anything on it. And they walk around school with their thongs showing.
SPEAKER 03 :
Unbelievable.
SPEAKER 02 :
Do you not know that there are secret systems within Albuquerque, New Mexico's education database where kids who are being transitioned at school, where they keep their information separate from parents. You know, these things are criminal, but there's a starting place for everything, you know? Yeah. And when we go back to the removal of God from the public school system, we understand the slippery slope that we are seeing today. And so my documentary takes you on a journey. It unpacks the history. I have wonderful people like Bill Federer and David Barton, renowned historians.
SPEAKER 03 :
Yes, yes. And friends of the James Dobson Family Institute Ministry and of Dr. Dobson. Yes. And it shows that you really went to the experts in putting the documentary together.
SPEAKER 02 :
Yes, indeed. I also have my good friend Kirk Cameron. Of course. He's in the documentary, and attorney Bernadette Broyles, and Bishop Patrick Langwood, and senior. And so just many individuals are coming alongside me in this journey. And you'll be able to see, as I go from state to state through this documentary— the impact that I'm having, but also the fight that I'm warring. And so I would ask everyone to go to 22wordsfilm.com and purchase this documentary. You can also do a screening where you show it to a large group of people. We will support you in doing so. Go to 22wordsfilm.com.
SPEAKER 03 :
And this is a great tool, Pastor, and this battle for the hearts and minds of our children. This is going to be an ongoing struggle. You know, both of the teacher unions are led by far-left ideologues. Yes, yes. And I believe at least one of them is a Marxist. The lady that's head of the National Library Association described herself as, As a Marxist. So this really is a battle for whether this country is going to be one nation under God or whether the rising generation will be taught to reject everything the country was built on and embrace socialism and Marxism and all the rest of that. One of the good news things is that we've got three new Supreme Court people sitting on the court as a result of Donald Trump's first term. And the result of all that is there's now, for the most part, a six-vote majority on the Supreme Court in defense of religious liberty. So some of the damage done in 1960, we now are in a position, if we'll just be bold like you've been and confront local school boards and school districts, we can get a lot more back into the schools than we could have, let's say, 10 years ago. And then armed with the facts in your fantastic documentary, parents will go into these battles armed with the information that they need.
SPEAKER 02 :
Yes, I agree. And so that's why I want everyone to go to 22wordsfilm.com and to see this film. But I've also put together some resources. This is my battle plan. It's free on my website at iknowgod.us. This is my battle plan to reclaim schools and communities. You can sign up to receive this. Also, I have a toolkit on my website so that when you sign up, you'll also receive my toolkit, which is the most comprehensive toolkit in America when it comes to explaining to parents just the basics of critical race theory, gender theory, and queer theory. It also teaches people how to coalesce and to build networks if they want to run for school board positions. It also shows you how to number board members to determine which one you should lobby towards voting out to make sure that we can reclaim schools and communities. So I have so much to offer. I'm not simply, as some have said, just cursing the darkness. Right. We're making films. We're providing free resources. You know, I'm sold out for this issue. I have three children, three children. And so I am concerned, greatly concerned.
SPEAKER 03 :
Well, our children are all adults now and married, but we have eight grandchildren. And all of their parents and us as grandparents, we're all doing everything we can to make sure they're exposed to the right information and the things that will uphold the values that they're being taught at home. We can't send our children out there You know, after telling them all the right things at home, but then putting them into the care of people that are going to tell them that all that's junk and old fashioned and all the rest of it. So it's good that you've created all this material here. that people can use. And it will make them more confident, I think, because a lot of parents, you know, oh, I'm going to go into that school board meeting. That school board's going to know so much more than I do. I don't want to be embarrassed. I'll be by myself. But as you know, Pastor, when somebody shows leadership, a lot of times in the documentary that I saw, your documentary, There were audiences in that school board that heard you were coming, and they were there to provide you moral support and stand with you, which is a great sign that people are catching on.
SPEAKER 02 :
Yes, indeed. You know, there's an army that's raising up. My plan is to raise up 400 school board warriors. Wow. To replace me. You know, like I said, I've been to 16 states. I'll be going to two other states. But I'm committed to making sure that we teach and train parents how to spot these Marxist ideologies.
SPEAKER 03 :
Pastor, we're running out of time. Could I impose on you to praying for the revival of our nation and the saving of our children?
SPEAKER 02 :
Yes. Well, Lord, your word tells us in Proverbs 22, 6, to train up a child in the way that he should go. And when he's old, he will not depart from it. God, we're called to train kids up, not to mess them up. Your word said also that righteousness exalts a nation, but sin is a reproach against evil people. Your word tells us in Isaiah 520, woe to those who call evil good and good evil. Help us, O God, to be the church, to be the church triumphant, to stand boldly, against the evils of our day and to protect our children. Children are a gift that you have given unto us. Empower us to do our jobs and to lead well. In Jesus' name we pray. Amen.
SPEAKER 01 :
Amen. Now, of course, you heard Gary make reference to the fact that during his earlier years in public life, he served as Undersecretary of Education in the newly minted Department of Education in President Ronald Reagan's administration. Well, both Gary and John are passionate about upholding biblical values and traditional values as well in the classroom. Pastor John Amon Chukwu's passionate testimony, his firsthand accounts from school board meetings all across America, and his invaluable insights from years of educational advocacy and ministry all demonstrate why Christian parents must remain engaged in protecting our children's minds and hearts. Now, to learn more about the ministry of Pastor John Amon Chukwu, his ongoing work in educational reform, and his documentary called 22 Words. Go to drjamesdobson.org forward slash family talk. You can host a screening of this film and you can find out more information about that on our website, drjamesdobson.org forward slash family talk. Well, here at the Dr. James Dobson Family Institute, we are dedicated to preserving and promoting biblical truth for families. Through these daily broadcasts and our comprehensive family resources, we're helping parents navigate increasingly challenging cultural waters. If you've been encouraged by or equipped by our programs, we invite you to join us in this vital mission. Your support enables us to continue bringing you trusted voices and biblical wisdom for today's families. Every donation makes a difference. So make a secure contribution online at drjamesdobson.org or call us at 877-732-6825. For Dr. Dobson and all of us here at the JDFI, I'm Roger Marsh. Thanks so much for being with us today. Be sure to join us again next time right here for another edition of Dr. James Dobson's Family Talk, the voice you trust for the family you love.
SPEAKER 02 :
This has been a presentation of the Dr. James Dobson Family Institute.
Explore the tense intersection of education and faith with Pastor John Omwanchukwu in this episode of Family Talk. A name synonymous with activism and advocacy, Pastor John discusses his documentary, 22 Words, which sheds light on the cultural and moral decline in American education. By sharing his vivid encounters and challenges, he motivates listeners to reflect on their roles in protecting children's education and offers a compelling argument for why the church must become more vocal in today's societal battles over values and ideologies.
SPEAKER 01 :
Welcome everyone to Family Talk. It's a ministry of the James Dobson Family Institute supported by listeners just like you. I'm Dr. James Dobson and I'm thrilled that you've joined us.
SPEAKER 02 :
Well, welcome to Family Talk. I'm Roger Marsh. You know, all across America, parents are waking up to what's being taught in their children's classrooms. From inappropriate content in school libraries to lessons that undermine faith and family values, the battle for our children's hearts and minds has reached a critical point. Today here on Family Talk, we're joined by Pastor John Omwanchukwu, executive producer of the new movie, 22 Words, a documentary exposing the loss of decency in American education. After discovering that a student was being mocked for her Christian faith in public school, Pastor John felt called to take action. Since then, he's traveled to 16 different states, addressing school boards all across the country and defending parental rights. He's been labeled the book-banning pastor by the liberal media, a title that he wears as a badge of honor. Here now to kick off this conversation is our very own Gary Bauer, Senior Vice President of Public Policy here at the Dr. James Dobson Family Institute. Stay with us as we explore the urgent challenges facing education in America right here on Family Talk. Gary?
SPEAKER 01 :
Thank you, Roger, and welcome everybody to Family Talk. We got a great show today. I know that all of you know that one of the big issues that Dr. Dobson has been concerned about his entire life is the education of America's children. In fact, Dr. Dobson and I wrote a book, it seems like a gazillion years ago now, called Children at Risk, the Battle for the Hearts and Minds of Our Children. And in that book, we argued that there was this great struggle going on in America, war over values. And the winner of that war would get the right to teach our children what to believe about life and death, love and sex, freedom and slavery. And the book caused quite a stir. When you go back and look at it now, on the one hand, it looks a little prophetic, but it also looks totally out of date. off the rails American education would go. And so all of his career, Dr. Dobson has continued to talk about what we need to do in the classrooms of America. And we all, if we've been paying attention, have seen in recent years the tremendous controversy that has sprung up around the nation, parents, movement, came to the forefront, parents suddenly discovering what their children were being taught. They started showing up at school board meetings, and all kinds of yelling happened. But it was a really important moment. It was an educational moment. And our guest today is somebody that has been right in the middle of that battle. Pastor John Amachukwa is a preacher, an author, an activist. and he has committed his life to exposing a lot of the things that are going on, racist ideologies of abortion, critical race theory. His last name actually means, I know God. And if you hear the pastor speak for more than a minute or so, you will quickly decide that he knows God because his message is powerful, and you can tell that the Spirit of the Lord is guiding him as he goes into the lion's den here in this great battle that's going on in America. John has got a great background. He had an incredible football career at North Carolina State. He went on to earn a master's degree in Christian ministry from Liberty University. He's led ministries to youth and young adults for many years. In addition, he spent 12 years on an issue that is also dear to Dr. Dobson's heart and all of us at JDFI, and that's the issue of the sanctity of life. We not only want to educate our children the right way, we want our children to be born so they can enjoy all the blessings of America. And so John has ministered outside one of the most busy abortion clinics in the Southeast United States. Currently, the pastor is a contributor with Turning Point Faith. He's the first assistant and youth pastor at the Upper Room Church of God in Christ in Raleigh, North Carolina, where he lives with his lovely wife and three children. He's the author of a couple of books, the last one being Hoodwink. which is that book is the basis of a new documentary film he has put together. And that's one of the main reasons we wanted to talk to the pastor today, not only about this issue, but about this great film, because Dr. Dobson and I both think it's must viewing. Pastor, welcome to the show. It's an honor to spend some time with you. And Could you just tell us a little bit about how you got involved in this issue, given much of your past was related to the sanctity of life and some other issues? But man, you have burst on the scene on this issue of what we ought to be teaching our children. So how did that happen?
SPEAKER 03 :
Well, you know, when we say that we are pro-life, we mean that. We mean that we're pro-life from the womb to the tomb. People oftentimes throw that out at people who are pro-life and they say that you have to be pro-life from the womb to the tomb. Well, I am. That's why I'm involved in education as well. But what we're seeing in society today is that the enemy, Satan, the evil one, wants to kill babies in the womb. as early as possible. And if he doesn't follow through with that, he wants to annihilate them mentally in the public classroom. And so about two and a half years ago, a young Caucasian girl over in Chatham County, which is about, I would say about 45 minutes from me, she was being demonized by her teacher. Her teacher told her that believing in Jesus was tantamount to believing in a brick wall. And being a youth pastor for the past about 20 years working in ministry and youth ministry, I had to do something to stand up for this young girl. I didn't know her. She wasn't a part of my youth group or my church, but she's a part of the body of Christ. And so I wanted to go in to defend her honor. So I drove about 45 minutes, spoke at the school board meeting. delivered a strong and commanding message. And I didn't know that that message would go viral. It went, I mean, all around the country. From that message, it landed me on major talk shows all around America. And I began to become, you know, what they call me now, the book banning pastor and or an individual who's called on to go defend children and teachers and school board leaders all around the country. You know, and so I didn't think that that would happen that day. I was just going to speak about one issue. But from there, things have taken off and I've now traveled to 16 states. Wow. Speaking up on the behalf of children. And I was once asked by a reporter, they said, Pastor John, are you leading a black movement in America? And I thought about that thing. I said, you know, am I leading a black movement in America? I said, that would be so shallow. No, I'm not. You know, the Bible says that we are one blood. And so I'm leading a kingdom movement. not a ethnic or minority movement. That's what I'm leading. And so I've now spoken in Virginia and North Carolina and New Jersey and Nevada, Florida, Texas, Colorado, California, Idaho, Pennsylvania, Alabama, Georgia, Louisiana, Missouri, New Mexico, and Maryland. And by the time it's all over, I will say in the words of Johnny Cash that I've been everywhere and
SPEAKER 01 :
Wow, that is incredible. You know, Pastor, a couple of things jumped out at me there. When you heard about this young woman and how she had been mistreated by a misguided teacher, you know, you could have easily just said, well, boy, that kind of thing shouldn't happen and then gone on with your life because you didn't have any relationship with this young woman. And sadly, we often hear about parents or pastors where something will happen in their actual community or to a young child in their church. And unlike what you did for a complete stranger, they'll say, well, you know, that shouldn't have happened. But look, let's not rock the boat. You know, I don't want to get involved in politics. Or, you know, if you make a big deal about this, the teacher might lower your grade. So why don't you just swallow hard and move on? It was just one of those bad things that happened in life. Here you are. This wasn't somebody from your church. And you went out of your way to defend her. And isn't there a real lesson here that this is what followers of Jesus Christ need to do every day as the culture keeps pushing against us and trying to back us in a corner to keep our faith private?
SPEAKER 03 :
Yes, I agree with that. You know, Diedrich Bonhoeffer said, to fail to speak is to speak, and to fail to act is to act. The Reverend Dr. Martin Luther King Jr. once said that if you sit idly by and say nothing about injustices, It's as if you are allowing it to take place because you've said nothing, you know. And so I really strongly feel that now more than ever, the Christian church has to be the hands and the feet. But let me add to that and the mouthpiece for God. Hands, feet, and mouth. You know, oftentimes we say, be the hands and feet of Jesus. That's true. You know, we want to do good works. We want to be that good Samaritan. But we also want to speak up.
SPEAKER 01 :
Yes.
SPEAKER 03 :
And so I really think that apathy is one of the things that's causing the church to become anemic. Because we know when we should act, but we say, it's someone else's problem. Right. Or that's not happening at our school. Or poor them, you know, let me go focus on my own family. And so we are called to be the body of Christ and the bride of Christ. But sadly today, the bride of Christ is afraid to break a nail. And so we position ourselves in a manner where we want to play it safe. The Bible says that everyone that will live godly in Christ Jesus will suffer persecution. And sadly, because of self-preservation, so many pastors are taking the position where, you know, I'll just be neutral or I'll be a pastor who's more careful in what I should say rather than just risking it all for God.
SPEAKER 01 :
I'll often hear pastors say, I don't want to offend anybody. Well, my goodness, the gospel of Jesus Christ is an offense. It is. To the world we live in. So what a thing to say. Pastor, you also said that you were called a book banner. Yes. I've heard, unfortunately, over the last couple of years, powerful words. elected officials in our own government call people like you and parents, moms and dads around the country that showed up at school board meetings to complain. Oh, they're book banners. None of these books are actually banned. I mean, these books, as bad as they are, are still available in bookstores to adults that want to buy them. And that's sad that there are adults that want to buy some of this trash. But what you have fought for and what Dr. Dobson's fought for is to keep this stuff away from little children. And what we're facing, as you know, are people that say children at the earliest age, all the way down to second and third grade, should be learning about some of this. Right. So, first of all, it's a lie that you're trying to ban a book or burn a book, right?
SPEAKER 03 :
It is a lie. You know, and every time they call me a book banner, you know, initially when they call me the book banning pastor, I took offense to it. I said, I don't like that. But now I kind of wear it with a badge of honor because really what they're saying is they're truly incriminating themselves because I don't want to ban books. I just have common sense. When you go to a public school or even a private school, a student just can't get on their laptop or on their cell phone and begin to type in any site that they want to go to, especially a pornographic site. You can't go to it because they put guardrails on the internet. So if we're going to put a guardrail on the internet so that a kid can't go to a porn site, shouldn't we do that in the library when it comes to books? Shouldn't we make it where kids don't have access to smut? And sadly, I have to say this because people are asking me all the time, why are we in this mess? And it will take a long time for me to unpack that. But let me just go straight to the heart of the issue. Because of the false triune idol of diversity, equity, and inclusion, Content like this is being placed in our classrooms. Kids are being taught about pronouns. Kids are being told that there are over 72 different genders. You know, Genesis 1, 27 says that God made us male and female. Verse 28 says, and God blessed them. He blessed the male and female construct. And so if you do it God's way, you receive God's blessing. But when you do it man's way, you receive a curse. And so I call it the false triune idol because DEI mimics the Trinity. You know, in the Trinity, we have Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. DEI, you have diversity, equity, and inclusion. When it comes to the Trinity, our worship with God, God desires private worship. And from that private worship, it flows out into corporate worship. But when it comes to DEI, they can care less about private worship. They want to cancel you and deplatform you if you don't bow to their agenda in public.
SPEAKER 01 :
You know, Pastor, when somebody like myself or Dr. Dobson, you know, we're white guys, and we're getting up in years. When we talk about DEI, I mean, it is like walking on, you know, a tightrope across the Grand Canyon. One poorly chosen phrase, and Just like they called you a book banner, they're going to call us racists and so forth. But I think one of the powerful things that's happened in recent years is that our brothers and sisters in Christ in the black community are stepping up like yourself. And nobody's going to call you a racist, Pastor. So let me thank you for bringing this forward.
SPEAKER 03 :
Let me say this. I have been called a white supremacist. Let me, of course, they've called me an Uncle Tom and all of that other stuff, you know. I went to California, Temecula, California, to speak at a school board meeting. I delivered a message entitled, 10 Things That Black Students Don't Need in Education. Number one, I said that we don't need affirmative action. Number two, I said that we don't need critical race theory where we label whites as inherently racist while propping blacks up as if we are proverbial victims. You know, the last time I checked, the Bible says that I'm a royal priesthood. And so you can't be royalty and a victim at the same time. I said that we don't need the soft bigotry of low expectations. And then I said that we don't need white liberals telling us that they know what's best for us than we know what's best for ourselves. Two weeks later, they were writing about me and labeling me as a white supremacist. You know, it's, and that's very condescending. I'll tell you why. Why is it that because I believe that my values come from the Bible rather than the culture, why do I have to now be a white supremacist? Because I believe that babies should be protected from every stage, at every stage of gestation. Why do I have to now be a white supremacist? Because I believe in school choice. Because I believe in bringing inflation down. Because I believe in securing our country. You know, we have this book in the Bible called Nehemiah. And the focus of that book is building a wall.
SPEAKER 01 :
Yes. Pastor, you said all these things you've been called. You've been called a book banner and so forth. Can you share with us what happened the first time you You went to one of these school board meetings, not the case where you were defending that poor young lady that was mocked by her teacher because she was a follower of Jesus Christ. But when you went to a school board and just tried to share with them by reading out loud what they were allowing the children of that community to be exposed to and what ended up happening when you did that. Right.
SPEAKER 03 :
Well, I'll give you two stories briefly. I went to Vero Beach, Florida, read from a book entitled 13 Reasons Why by Jay Asher. The book was very pornographic, very, very, very pornographic. And I read the pages of the book. And within 10 seconds, the board chairlady gaveled me down and told me that I can't read that, you know, it's too much in public. And I kept reading it because, you know, I'm not going to fly a thousand miles to a certain location and then get there and then they defraud me and rob me of my freedom of speech. If I have three minutes to speak, hear me, hear me clear. I'm going to speak for three minutes. And so she began to gavel me down. And after that, they came and took my microphone from me and then sent in four cops. And the cops grabbed me by the arm and took me out of the school board meeting.
SPEAKER 01 :
Unbelievable.
SPEAKER 03 :
Recently in Wake County, North Carolina, I spoke at our school board meeting here in my hometown. I addressed two issues. There was a young girl by the name of Lorena Benson who was forced to read from a short story in her class that was incestuous. It talked about two cousins who had a sexual relationship. She had to read from that in class and then discuss it. She went to the school board meeting and told them what happened and that she was traumatized by it and that she resigned from that school. The school board had done nothing about it two weeks later. And then we have this bill called HB 49, which is a parental rights bill in North Carolina, where it says that you're not allowed to put gender confusing books on the bookshelves statewide. Do you not know that all around this state there are still gender confusing books, grades K through four, on the bookshelves as we speak? And no one has done anything about it. After traveling to 16 states, I have three takeaways. Number one, perverts are perverting the hearts and the minds of our children. Number two, parents are unaware. And number three, pastors, yes, pastors have failed to do their job. I'm calling on men all around this country to stand in the gap and to protect our families. You know, the glory of the man is the woman. But today, many of our men are robbing women of their glory. That's why they want to compete in women's sports. They can't compete against men. You know, if they compete against men, they get last place, right? Right. So then they come up with a novel idea. Hmm, let me go compete against women. And sadly today, we don't have enough men speaking up about that.
SPEAKER 01 :
You're absolutely right, Pastor. And were you shocked when it went so far in those early visits that they literally would try to arrest you or physically remove you? You know, it's been amazing to see how quickly this fundamental right of the freedom of speech and our right to petition our own government – That those basic things are under attack and you see it all the time. And a lot of the people that are doing it are the same people that are running around saying that there's a threat to our democracy. What ends up, they're the threat to our democracy.
SPEAKER 03 :
That's right, which is a strategy of Karl Marx. Karl Marx believed in labeling democracy. the enemy in the same manner by saying that the enemy seeks to do exactly what he wants to do. In other words, they call us threats to our democracy. They call us the fascist. They say that we are the Hitlers. But at the end of the day, that's truly their plan. And so one of the things that we see clearly in this culture is that if you don't have the pulse of what's going on. And if you don't understand the impact that syncretism is having on the Christian church, you're going to be duped. And by syncretism, I mean the amalgamation of cultural belief systems and thoughts where that which is holy and righteous has become perverted and secular because it has been watered down. That's where we are.
SPEAKER 02 :
Well, you're listening to Dr. James Dobson's Family Talk, featuring a compelling conversation with Pastor John Omwanchukwu about education, parental rights, and the hidden dangers lurking in today's classrooms. His passionate defense of our children and biblical values reminds us why we must remain vigilant in protecting the next generation. Now, if you missed any part of today's broadcast or you'd like to share it with friends, simply visit drjamesdobson.org forward slash family talk. There you'll also find out more about our guest, Pastor John Amonchukwu, and his new documentary, 22 Words, Exposing the Loss of Decency in American Education. And if you are interested in hosting a screening of this powerful documentary, you'll find all that information when you go to drjamesdobson.org forward slash family talk. Here at the JDFI, we are committed to promoting and teaching biblical principles that support marriage, family, and child development. And programs like the one you heard today are made possible by the generosity of friends just like you. Now, if you've been impacted by what you heard on this program and you want to help us broadcast biblical truth to even more families all across America, then I invite you to step forward with a tax-deductible donation. Your support of any amount will help us continue standing up and speaking out about critical issues affecting families. Every day we hear from listeners who tell us how these broadcasts have given them hope and practical guidance for raising godly children in challenging times. You play an integral role in these life-changing moments, for sure. So to make a secure donation, visit drjamesdobson.org. That's drjamesdobson.org. Or write to us at Post Office Box 39000, Colorado Springs, Colorado, the zip code 80949. Well, I'm Roger Marsh, and from all of us here at the Dr. James Dobson Family Institute, thanks so much for listening today. Be sure to join us again next time for part two of a powerful conversation featuring Gary Bauer and Pastor John Amwanchukwu. It's coming up next time right here on Family Talk, the voice you trust for the family you love.
SPEAKER 03 :
This has been a presentation of the Dr. James Dobson Family Institute.
Join Dr. James Dobson as he hosts an emotionally charged conversation with Chris Jackman and Court Langland about the journey from heartbreak to healing. Chris recounts her experiences with abortion and the subsequent inner turmoil, revealing the story behind her music album, 'The Choice'. Through shared testimonies and divine encounters, the episode emphasizes the grace that God extends to those seeking redemption and the crucial role of support systems like Morning Joy Ministries in healing past wounds.
SPEAKER 03 :
Well, hello, everyone. I'm James Dobson, and you're listening to Family Talk, a listener-supported ministry. In fact, thank you so much for being part of that support for James Dobson Family Institute.
SPEAKER 01 :
Well, welcome to Family Talk, the broadcast ministry of the Dr. James Dobson Family Institute. I'm Roger Marsh, and here at the JDFI, protecting and defending human life stands at the very heart of our mission, so much so that we've named the month of January Sanctity of Human Life Month. You see, the sanctity of human life isn't just a political issue. It's a fundamental truth that speaks to who we are as God's creation. Every life, from the moment of conception, carries infinite worth and dignity. And that's why this battle for life is one that we cannot afford to lose. Today here on Family Talk, you'll hear a heartbreaking yet redemptive story of abortion, repentance, and God's grace. A story that reminds us of why we must continue standing strong for life. Here now is Dr. James Dobson to introduce today's guests.
SPEAKER 03 :
Today's program will attempt to shed more light on the evils of abortion and the tremendous guilt it caused the women who have been through it. Our guests on this episode of Family Talk are Ms. Chris Jackman and Mr. Court Langland. Chris will share the tragic story of her upbringing and why she decided to abort her second child. She'll talk about the shame she felt after having that procedure and the remorse she still carries from that decision. Court, who was Chris's music teacher, will join the conversation and talk about his pro-life journey and how he helped Chris produce a song entitled The Choice. The choice to help other mothers in this moment of crisis. Let's listen now to this compelling testimony on this edition of Family Talk. Folks, it's good to have you here. Thank you. It's great to be here.
SPEAKER 02 :
Thank you for having us.
SPEAKER 03 :
You feel just as strongly as we do about that matter of the unborn child. Oh, without a doubt. Chris, I'm going to start the program today by going back to your childhood because there's a story there that our listeners really need to hear, and it's going to be very relevant to many women who are tuned in to us today. And I'd like to take you right back to those early days. I know it's rather difficult. When I told you in my office earlier that that's what I wanted to talk about to begin with, you flinched a little bit. That's kind of a painful memory for you, isn't it? Tell me why your childhood was painful.
SPEAKER 02 :
Well, my father, who I loved dearly, was an alcoholic. And I grew up in a home where my family hid the secret, which they often did back then. And Some of my earliest memories are ones of fear. It's like fear seems to be one of the most prevailing emotions that I remember.
SPEAKER 03 :
Now, did your father ever abuse you physically?
SPEAKER 02 :
No, he never physically abused the girls in the family. There's six of us in the family. But the boys? He would get physically abusive with the boys. And it's very scary. I mean, your dad looks really huge to you when you're just a little kid. And it was like he's this hardworking man one minute, and he comes home, and he's this totally different creature.
SPEAKER 03 :
How did you feel about yourself at that time? How did you interpret Chris in the context of your family?
SPEAKER 02 :
Honestly, I didn't feel like I fit in. In fact, I remember at one point leaving a note for my mother in her dresser that I knew she'd find that said, I know I'm adopted. Just send me back where you got me from. And I remember her finding that note, and they brought it out at the supper table and read it. And of course, to them, it was a huge joke because I looked so much like my mother. But they all laughed, and I remember thinking, this isn't funny, you guys. I really feel like this. I feel like I don't fit into my family.
SPEAKER 03 :
How much of that was related to either rejection or a lack of love by your father?
SPEAKER 02 :
A lot. I never really felt close to my dad. He was pretty distant. I was close to my mom, but my dad, I just didn't feel like, I don't know, I just wasn't important.
SPEAKER 03 :
Yeah. That emotion is still very close to the surface, and I see now why you flinched when I asked you to review that. And I'm sorry for having to take you back through that, Chris, but I think it's very important, as I said before, to understand where you have been. You graduated from high school, and then what happened to you?
SPEAKER 02 :
I moved out of the house when I was 17, after I graduated. And a year later, I married the first guy who paid any serious attention to me. And it wasn't good. We were too young.
SPEAKER 03 :
And what happened in the marriage?
SPEAKER 02 :
The marriage only lasted like two and a half years. I left him when our son was like 11 months old. And then about a year after I was divorced, I became pregnant by someone else.
SPEAKER 03 :
And what now?
SPEAKER 02 :
I was already a single mom with a two-year-old, and I wasn't in love with this guy. I didn't want to marry him. And so I really honestly did not give him a choice in the matter. It was like I had my mind made up. I can't do this. I cannot raise two kids by myself. I don't want to marry him.
SPEAKER 03 :
You were absolutely lost, weren't you, Christian?
SPEAKER 02 :
I felt so desperate and so afraid.
SPEAKER 03 :
And so you decided to have an abortion. Tell me about it.
SPEAKER 02 :
It's like I didn't want to think about it too much, the decision that I was making, because in my heart I knew it was wrong. But I didn't want to listen to my conscience because this is what I made my mind up that I had to do. And so I called the clinic and made the appointment.
SPEAKER 03 :
Anybody give you any counsel? Anybody try to talk you out of this?
SPEAKER 02 :
The only one I told was my sister, who couldn't bear the knowledge of knowing that I was going to go get an abortion. And so she ended up telling my family. And they tried talking me out of it, but I was very hard-headed.
SPEAKER 03 :
What was the abortion itself like in its aftermath? I don't want to know the details of the abortion, but what were you thinking after that?
SPEAKER 02 :
I think I was completely numb. You go into that clinic and you come out and you're not the same.
SPEAKER 03 :
All right, let's fast forward your story now and find out what happened after you had the abortion. What do you remember about the years that followed?
SPEAKER 02 :
After the abortion, I just got a lot worse. I was a lot more promiscuous. And about a year later, I was pregnant again. Hmm. And I remember thinking, even though it was, oh, here I am in another crisis pregnancy, part of me, it may sound strange, but part of me thought, I didn't think God would ever let me have another baby because of what I did. I didn't think he could ever forgive me. So part of me was kind of relieved that I was pregnant again. And the father of the baby, when I told him about it, that I was pregnant again, He insisted that, well, you have to get an abortion. And I told him, I can't do that. I've done this once before, and I just cannot go through that again. He says, well, if you won't get an abortion, then I'm out of here. It's your problem. And he left. And so, you know, nine months later, I had Shannon. And I went to a grocery store, and on the way out, you know how they have those cards for people selling things, you know, free ad type things? And I saw this ad for this baby car seat, and something compelled me to take that card. And I called that number, and it ended up being someone who became my new daycare provider who led me to Christ.
SPEAKER 03 :
How did this woman demonstrate the love of Christ in your life?
SPEAKER 02 :
Oh, she was so helpful, watching my kids. She and her husband just exemplified a good Christian marriage.
SPEAKER 03 :
Now, Chris, I understand that even though you had become a Christian by that point, that you still hadn't truly dealt with the emotional effects of your abortion experience. In fact, isn't it true that it was several years later before you really faced what you'd done? How did the Lord deal with you at that time?
SPEAKER 02 :
You know how God, he's so gentle. He deals with issues as you can handle one thing at a time. And it finally got to the point where it's like, okay, Chris, we're going to talk about your abortion now. And one night I was watching, it was a PBS special on Nazi Germany, and then the concentration camps. And I just remember watching the special, and my heart was just like, oh, God, how could you stand that? And the thought came to my mind, Chris, you're no better. You took the life of your own child. And I just broke. And I just remember just crying out to God, saying, oh, God, I don't know if you can, but please, please forgive me. And this wave of peace came over me, and I could feel his presence, and I knew I was forgiven.
SPEAKER 03 :
Chris, there are people out there who still assert that there are no consequences to abortion for the mother. You would testify otherwise, wouldn't you?
SPEAKER 02 :
Oh, I would definitely testify otherwise. I have talked personally with so many women and men who have been through an abortion, and they are emotionally and spiritually scarred from this. How can you not be affected by when you take the life of your own child. You know, when you cut through all the rationalizations and it comes right down to it, and you come to that moment in your life when you realize what you really did, it can almost drive you insane.
SPEAKER 03 :
Tell me how you have used that experience to help others.
SPEAKER 02 :
Well, eventually, you know, after that night that I found forgiveness, God led me to a special abortion recovery ministry called Morning Joy Ministries. And I happened to get Lynn on the phone. And it's like, she must have known. She could tell I was post-abortive. And next thing I know, she's talked me into going to this abortion recovery Bible study support group. And it was phenomenal. It was awesome. And now I can talk about it.
SPEAKER 03 :
And there are so many women out there just like you. Came through difficult childhoods, some of them, and went through a rebellious stage and made a mistake or two and wound up having an abortion or two or three or four and are now out there without a way to deal with that pain and that guilt.
SPEAKER 02 :
Right.
SPEAKER 03 :
And you want to reach out to them.
SPEAKER 02 :
Oh, yes. Oh, I want them to be able to find what I've found. And that's grace. I've gotten a hold of grace.
SPEAKER 03 :
Court, let's bring you into the conversation now.
SPEAKER 04 :
How did you meet Chris? I met Chris. I taught her music before she had revealed to anyone that she'd had an abortion. And she was a very gifted songwriter and just had a lot of stuff in her. Eventually, she confessed to me that she had been post-abortive. And suddenly I saw where the root was for all this. And then... A couple years later, she brought in front of me the lyrics to her life story, her struggle with abortion, and she wanted to put it to music and produce a CD that told her story that others could relate to and understand how she found grace. So we started working on this record together, and so that's kind of where we came from.
SPEAKER 03 :
And it is called?
SPEAKER 04 :
It's called The Choice. It chronicles Chris's entire experience with abortion. It starts with her actual experience in the clinic and what she went through there, moves into a time of regret and shame, and then it moves into this wonderful piece that has a child in conversation with God in heaven. And the conversation goes like this. The child asks, Father God, when is my mommy going to be here? God says, soon, my child, soon. What do you think she's going to do when she sees me? God says, she'll run to you, she'll take you in her arms, and she'll love you, just as any other loving mother would do. Father God, why has she never held me in her arms before? God says, she never had the chance to do so, my child. Why did she never have the chance, Father God? And God says, I don't remember, my child. And so that's where the album takes a transition into songs of healing and reconciliation and songs of worship.
SPEAKER 03 :
The message of your story, Chris, for other women who are out there, is that God never gave up on you. When you were doing those terrible things, I mean, doing wrong things that were not only harmful to you and other people, but in violation of God's law. And pardon me for putting it in its most graphic terms, but you had killed your own baby, and yet God loved you. and wanted a relationship with you, and wanted to forgive you, and wanted to bless your life, and wanted to use you in his kingdom. If that isn't grace, what is it? And you feel it, don't you?
SPEAKER 02 :
It's like he knew what choice I was going to make before I ever walked into that clinic. And he still, he pursues us, you know?
SPEAKER 03 :
Court, you look like you're about to speak.
SPEAKER 04 :
I wanted to take off on just a little different tangent. God gave me a really unique experience, a really unique encounter to show me how much he loves women in this situation. A lot of times we focus on the baby, and God just allowed me eyes to see how much he loves for a woman stuck in that crisis pregnancy situation. I was going to lunch alone, and I was working on this project with Chris, and I got to the elevator at lunch, and I was going by myself, and I thought, you know, I should take something to read. So I went back to my desk, and I grabbed Sid DeMasi and Joan Phillips' book, Her Choice to Heal, to take just to read to get some more understanding. So I went across the street to a new place I'd never been to before, and I sat down at a table. Pretty quick, the restaurant filled up, so I thought, you know, I can let some people sit here. So I went up to the bar. I put my book down, put my jacket on the back of a chair, and went to the restroom to wash up. When I came back, I found the book had been turned around. I thought, that's interesting. Somebody's been checking this out. And sure enough, this waitress comes out. And first thing she says is, what's a guy like you doing reading a book like this? And she just started to ask all kinds of questions. What does God think about abortion? What does the Bible say about abortion? Isn't it just a choice? Is this really a child, you know? And, you know, we started to talk about the philosophy of it. And then I noticed that she was shaking. And I thought, perhaps she's supposed to bore us. So I started to talk about grace and how God wants to just reach out and forgive and heal. And as I turned around to go, I took the book with me, and I was just about to step out the door when I felt God just tug on my inside. You know, God can speak to you without words. Right. I knew I had to give her the book. So I turned around and I said, would you like this book? And before I finished my sentence, she had reached it and grabbed onto it with both hands. And she had it held against her chest. And by this time, there were some tears coming out of her eyes. And she was really shaking. And I said, you know, I'll pick it back up in a couple of weeks. Just take your time, read it. And I went out of there and I prayed for her. And I thought she was post-abortive. And I was just excited to see what God wanted to do in her life. Two weeks later, I went back there to have lunch with a friend. And all of a sudden, I catch out of the corner of my eye this same waitress almost at a dead run over to our table. And she says, excuse me, but I just had to tell you I'm keeping my baby. I said, what? She said, I'm keeping my baby. And she says, oh, no, you don't understand. She said, two weeks ago when you came in, she said, I was scheduled to have an abortion at 3 o'clock that day. My goodness. And she said, I thought about what you said. I took the book. She said, I even went to the abortion clinic, and they were running late. So I sat there for 45 minutes, and I started to read that book. And I knew I couldn't go ahead with it. So I called my boyfriend. He came and picked me up. And she says, we're meeting with a minister. We've decided to get married. And she said, I am so, so happy. And what... What I saw there was just the extent that God will go through to reach someone, because I never intended to be there. He totally orchestrated the things, and he just wanted to minister to that woman that he loved. And I thought that that's the biggest thing we can do in this whole debate, is to be there for people. whether it's on TV with ads, with phone numbers that girls in crisis pregnancy can call, or just for post-abortive women and men to start to tell their story so that women can approach them, that they become approachable. But just to extend that kind of grace. Yeah.
SPEAKER 03 :
See, the Lord used a book in that instance. I believe he's going to use this program and others. There are people listening to us right now. They happen to be spinning the dial, happen to be at home and turn on the radio, and there we were. And there is this story, and it has evoked all of those feelings, all of that guilt, all of that pain from an earlier time. And the Lord is going to use this. I know every time we do a program like this, somebody writes us and says, it was me. I was the one. And, Chris, that makes the journey here and the effort you've put into this and, in fact, opening your childhood to talk about this painful episode worth it all, doesn't it?
SPEAKER 02 :
Oh, yeah, definitely worth it all.
SPEAKER 03 :
And see, as Christians, we get very exercised over abortion, and we say this shouldn't occur, and that's what we ought to be saying. But we also have to put an arm around those women who are scared. They're in a terribly difficult spot. Their boyfriends are putting pressure on them. Frequently, their mothers and fathers are putting pressure on them. And that's, in essence, what you were feeling.
SPEAKER 02 :
Oh, yes. I've talked to so many people who are post-abortive now, and there's a lot of mothers and fathers who think they're doing their daughter a service. They think they're doing the right thing by telling their daughter to get an abortion, but, oh, man, the ramifications are just huge. It will destroy the relationship between that daughter... and the mother and father, I have seen so much anger come out because their parents did not protect them. Their parents made them go do this awful thing, and the anger issue is just huge.
SPEAKER 04 :
One of the things that I think we can, as Christians, do is to move somewhat from the sense of outrage over abortion to a sense of outreach. Reaching out to post-abortive folks, because the number of folks who are post-abortive is staggering. It's at least one in five in the As these people tell their stories, as they come out, as you find out friends that you have that are post-abortive, you'll get the whole story of the ramifications. You'll understand what happens and that it's bad for women and it's bad for men and it's bad for families. And as the truth comes out, that'll be the largest deterrent there is in this culture. But also, as we can be there, those people in that situation are looking for absolutely anyone who will help them, but they're stuck in their silence.
SPEAKER 03 :
Yeah, there is so much emotion. Chris, you mentioned the fact that you weren't thinking right.
SPEAKER 02 :
I think that maybe if someone would have showed me what my baby looked like at 8 to 12 weeks along, I had no idea that was a perfectly formed little baby. Just a blob of tissue. Yeah.
SPEAKER 03 :
Protoplasm is what they used to call it.
SPEAKER 02 :
And it's like, no. A fetus. It's a little baby. And I heard that current research shows that babies at the age of 12 weeks are able to experience pain. And now that I've learned so much now about abortion procedures and how they're performed, and it just horrifies me. It's like, and I still talk to people today who do not understand exactly what the abortion procedure is and how it will develop their baby is.
SPEAKER 03 :
Hmm. Recent polling shows that we are winning this battle for the hearts and minds of the people. It's slow, but it's coming. And when you consider the progress that's been made in the area of public opinion, despite what Hollywood does and what television does and what the popular media, the news media and so on, are doing, we're still winning. This is an argument we're going to win. In the meantime, we need to do as much as we can to help the mothers avoid this tragedy. You agree?
SPEAKER 02 :
I agree. And the biggest thing is, it's like God's heart is so incredibly broken over this issue. Not just the babies, but the women and the men and the extended families that are devastated by this. It's like, and yeah, we're going to win this. I think it will happen as more and more women and men who are post-abortive find freedom in Christ and find forgiveness and find their voice again.
SPEAKER 01 :
Well, Chris's story shows us both the devastating ripples one choice can create and the extraordinary ways God pursues us, even through our darkest moments. Friend, you're listening to Family Talk and a powerful conversation featuring Dr. James Dobson and his guests, Chris Jackman and Court Langland. Dr. Dobson will return to share some closing thoughts in just a moment. So do stay with us. First, though, a quick reminder that you can share this program with someone who needs to hear it simply by going to drjamesdobson.org forward slash family talk. Today's broadcast will be front and center on our website, and you can send that link via text or email. And also keep in mind that drjamesdobson.org website is the home of a wealth of resources for single parents, for couples, for families, and regarding the sanctity of human life. You don't need to go through this journey alone, and I really hope you'll take a moment to to read some of the articles, listen to the podcast, watch the videos and take advantage of all the free resources that we have available to you to help you through any circumstance you're facing. Again, you'll find it all at drjamesdobson.org. And now here's Dr. Dobson to close out our program with some final words.
SPEAKER 03 :
I pray that you've been blessed by today's show and developed a greater passion for the fight for life. If you or someone you know is considering an abortion because it feels like the only option, know that we're here and we care about you. We not only care about your baby, but we care about you, the mother. Please call our offices here at Colorado Springs at 877-732-7000. And one of our representatives will be happy to pray with you or direct you to a pregnancy center in your area. I started Family Talk to minister to families and help those in need. So if you would like some assistance of any sort, please call us again at 877-732-6825. Lastly, if you would like to share how this ministry has impacted you or how God has moved in your life or your family, I would love to hear about it. Just call our listener feedback line. at 844-823-2669. Once you dial, you will have two minutes to share your story or let us know your thoughts about our programs. That number again for Family Talks listener feedback line is 844-823-2669. Thank you for your love and support. I'm James Dobson, and I'm so grateful that you joined us on this broadcast today. You're going to hear something like what we said today every year in January to make sure we don't forget Roe v. Wade, our 60-plus million babies. And I hope you'll tune in tomorrow for another edition of Family Talk.
SPEAKER 01 :
This has been a presentation of the Dr. James Dobson Family Institute.
The conversation extends beyond scripture as Dr. Dobson and Dr. Getz address the pressing cultural shifts that challenge traditional roles and family structures. They offer wisdom on how individuals can remain grounded in their faith, despite societal pressures. With practical insights and personal anecdotes, this episode encourages listeners to reflect on their own lives and prioritize what truly matters, ensuring that the legacy they leave behind aligns with their deepest beliefs.
SPEAKER 03 :
You're listening to Family Talk, the radio broadcasting division of the James Dobson Family Institute. I am that James Dobson, and I'm so pleased that you've joined us today.
SPEAKER 02 :
As men, we need accountability, we need encouragement, and we need to model for our sons and daughters what it means to be a godly man. And wherever we are in process, that's where we got to begin and move forward in our lives.
SPEAKER 01 :
Well, welcome to Family Talk with psychologist and bestselling author, Dr. James Dobson. I'm Roger Marsh. And today we're continuing our conversation with Dr. Gene Getz. His landmark book, The Measure of a Man, 20 Attributes of a Godly Man, has inspired readers worldwide since 1974. That's right. The 50th anniversary of that book was last year. Dr. Goetz founded the Fellowship Bible Church movement after spending two decades as a professor at Moody Bible Institute and Dallas Theological Seminary. He's the author of more than 60 books and hosted the Daily Renewal radio program for 24 years. His crowning achievement, the Life Essentials Study Bible, features 1,500 principles to live by and over 250 hours of video teaching, making scripture accessible for a new generation. Dr. Goetz founded the Fellowship Bible Church movement Last time on the program, Dr. Dobson and Dr. Goetz began discussing what it means to be a godly man. And today, we'll dive deeper into that conversation here on this special edition of Dr. James Dobson's Family Talk.
SPEAKER 03 :
Gene, I loved our time together yesterday. We've got so much in common. But I want to go back to something you said. You brought it up right at the end of the program last time. that as you look back on all your accomplishments and the things that the Lord has done through you, that the one thing that you wish you could have done better is spend more time at home. You're right. I don't know very many people who are very successful in life, men in particular, who don't feel that way. Billy Graham feels that way. Cliff Barrows told me he felt that way. Other great leaders in the church regret the fact that they let these years get away so quickly when your children are around your feet. And then you look back and say, man, as much as what I did was important and God led me to do it, I overdid it. Does that summarize what you were saying?
SPEAKER 02 :
Yes, I think so. And I'm just so thankful, Jim, for a wife. Elaine, love you. You're the best thing ever came into my life. When I was working, for example, on that PhD program, I was teaching at Moody, and I was going out summers. I wrote a very lengthy dissertation. It took me six years to do it. And every spare moment I had, I was working on that. And Elaine would take those children, and she would go to the parks, and she would do things. And even on Fourth of July, I should have been out there. I was over in the office working on some stuff. But she always interpreted my heart and my schedule. Doesn't excuse it, but she'd interpret that to the children. Dad wants to be here, but he can't. I'm so thankful for that. But there came a point in time where I had to come to grips, Jim, with even my relationship with Elaine. Because when we went to Dallas after being at Moody... Boy, I just dug in and started over down there. Boy, just a heavy schedule. Now teaching at the graduate level. And I woke up one morning to go to work and to teach. And Elaine's lying in bed and she said, Jane, I can't go on this way. She said, I've been waiting all this time for you to be freed up. And she teases me. You would say, when then? When then? But she said, it's not coming. And I faced the fact that she was really depressed about that. And boy, it got my attention. And I called the seminary and canceled all four classes that day. And I think that was the first time I've ever canceled any ministry ever. Like that. I said, I've got an emergency. I can't be there. And I spent that day listening to her feelings. And as a result of that, we began to work through some literature, just learning how to communicate, learning how to share my understanding, prioritizing. And that was a great change point in my life. And I'm so thankful for that moment. You just described the story of my life.
SPEAKER 03 :
I was a student in a graduate school like you. I was working on a Ph.D. It took the measure of me. Talk about the measure of a man, which is the book you wrote. The pressures associated with that took the measure of me. When I graduated, when I got the PhD, the world opened up to me. I mean, all kind of things that would sound like I'm bragging to tell you about it. But national radio, national television, my books were all bestsellers. Dare to Discipline was my first book, and it sold four million copies. And I was running. Man, I was running. And I went 17 nights without being home on one occasion. And my daughter was three years old and my son was not yet born. And my dad, my good godly dad, who has always been a beacon. righteousness for me and he saw it happening and he wrote me a letter to change my life and he said I'm proud of what you're doing and it's wonderful to see the way God's using you but I'll tell you that when you sit where I am today and you look back, all these accomplishments that mean so much to you today are gonna be pale and washed out if you lose your kids. And I fear that your priorities are such that you're not giving the time necessary to your daughter who's growing up, this is a quote, in a world much farther gone into moral decline than the world into which you were born. And he said, I have observed that in this kind of world that if you don't have time to pray for your kids, you run the risk of losing them. Boy, it shook me, Gene. I could cry about it today. It shook me. And it led to my leaving. USC School of Medicine and a plum of a position. I was doing research. I was loving it, but I was away from home too much. And we were doing this research in 15 major hospitals. I had to visit them twice a year. It just was not conducive to what I needed to do and be And I walked out of there, and that's why I started a radio program, so I could stay home. But it was the same thing. But I almost made the biggest mistake of my life, but I didn't.
SPEAKER 02 :
You know, we all need that. And when I think of Elaine and her faithfulness and her support and her encouragement – behind the scenes and I honor her as a pastor's wife because in all the pastoral situations, I don't ever remember her being criticized once. That's the kind of wise woman she was. But not too long ago, we were at breakfast and she was sharing some prayer needs and I was in a hurry to get to the office and she looked at me and she said, Jane, I sense lately that you're not prioritizing prayer. And, boy, I looked at her. You know, the first thought? I wrote a book on prayer. I said, you're right. And I needed that because I was so busy doing – this had just happened six months ago. I thank God for a woman like that.
SPEAKER 03 :
Surely never let me lose sight of the priorities.
SPEAKER 02 :
She didn't nag me about it, but it was always there. God knew what he was doing when he said to Adam, you need somebody to help you. Is that spelled out in your book, The Measure of a Man? We sure talk a lot about that, particularly the chapter Fathering God's Way. You know, that's a powerful concept. Because, you know, Paul said if you can't manage your own family, how can you take care of the church of God? Right. I mean, that should be a priority. And so we deal with that and practical suggestions. This book was published 42 years ago.
SPEAKER 03 :
At least, yes. And more than a million copies have sold. It's called The Measure of a Man, 20 Attributes of a Godly Man. And it's obviously become a classic bestseller. And I ask you to... In all humility, explain what the explanation of this longevity is. Why is this book still out there on the bookshelves today?
SPEAKER 02 :
Well, as I said yesterday, I borrowed the outline from the Apostle Paul. Of course, we know where he got it directly from the Holy Spirit, both in his letter to Timothy and his letter to Titus.
SPEAKER 03 :
Why don't you share those scriptures and the specific attributes that you found in the scripture and then wrote in the book, The Measure of a Man?
SPEAKER 02 :
Well, let me just give you the 15 from 1 Timothy. In Titus, there are more. Above reproach, a man of good reputation. The husband and one wife, which really means morally pure. Self-controlled, which means balanced in words and actions. Sensible, wise and humble. Respectable means a good role model. Hospitable, unselfish, generous. Able to teach, a capacity to communicate sensitively. Not addicted to wine. That means really not addicted to any substance. Not a bully. Not abusive, psychologically or physically. Gentle. Sensitive, loving, kind. Not quarrelsome. Not argumentative and divisive. Not greedy, which means not materialistic. Managed his own household competently. In other words, a good husband and a father. And of course, if you're going to be a spiritual leader, not a new convert. because you can be lifted up in pride, but Satan will attack you. And then Paul says, a good reputation among outsiders and others with non-Christians. So those are 15 chapters. And then in Titus, you have some repetition, but you have some unique ones. And I pulled out five more from Titus to end the list. So there are a total of 20.
SPEAKER 03 :
And you wrote a book right out of that section.
SPEAKER 02 :
That's right. And it grew out of a study I had with a group of guys where we took one of these a week. And we shared the responsibility. I led the first study. We looked at the Scriptures. Then we discussed how we could apply it, and then other men led, and I kind of folded into the group, even though I was their lead pastor. Started taking notes, and that's when Bill Gregg walked into my office from Gospel Light. I showed him the outline, and I showed him the notes I was taking, and that's when he said, Gene, I want this as a book. I had no idea it would become a book, and then that's how I wrote The Measurable Man. You know, Gene, none of us is perfect.
SPEAKER 03 :
Not one of us. Only Jesus is perfect. Absolutely. And that list is formidable. It is formidable. What are the advantages of doing the best you can to follow that path?
SPEAKER 02 :
Well, it's a process. And obviously one of the things, and I've gone over this list with many, many men. And one of the things I've said, don't be discouraged. You know, don't allow yourself to get down on yourself. I've had guys come up and say, you know, I'm a leader in the church. I think I ought to resign. And I've said, no, wait a minute. Maybe you shouldn't resign. Maybe you should change. Let's take a look at where you are. But, you know, when you look at this list, though, Jim, you could pretty much give a yes or no. We're somewhere in process. But, for example, if I say, do you have a good reputation? Well, yes or no. You have a good reputation. Is there anything you'd like to do to build it? Are you morally pure? Well, I'm tempted, but I'm true to my wife. I've never cheated on her. Have I been tempted? Absolutely. But I want to be morally pure. That's my goal. Are you self-controlled or temperate is another word that is used there. Does that mean... are you balanced do you go on tangents you know you keep your eyes on jesus where are you in that process are you respectable respectable simple i love that word by the way in the greek it's cosmos from which we get our english word cosmetics and we use cosmetics to make ourselves look good well the word cosmos means that our lives should be like cosmetics to the gospel. And so this is a lifetime process. I mean, almost every one of these are goals you work at until Jesus takes us home. But in the meantime, we are to be transformed, and not conformed to the world, but transformed into the image of Jesus. So this is a profile of Christ. And we also have to understand you don't do this alone. Absolutely. You do this in the power of the Holy Spirit. And with other members of the body because it's really interesting because in Ephesians chapter 4, where Paul says, God has gifted the church, apostles, prophets, evangelists, pastors, teachers, equipped the saints to do the work of the ministry until we all come to the unity of faith, all, and measure up to the stature of the fullness of Christ. And the word measure is used right there. We're to measure up as a body and as individuals. And by the way, the word for measure Measure in Greek is metron, from which we get metronome.
SPEAKER 03 :
Yeah.
SPEAKER 02 :
In music, standard. And so Jesus Christ is our standard. And through the power of the Spirit of God and encouragement from the body of Christ, as Paul said, every joint supplying, every part doing its work, the body builds itself up in love. So it is a corporate experience.
SPEAKER 03 :
Do you worry – about where Western men are today. I mean, you and I have lived long enough to see culture ebb and flow. And answering my own question, it feels to me like a lot of men are absolutely lost.
SPEAKER 02 :
It's going down. A lot of it has been around for centuries. Imagine these guys converted out of their heathen lifestyles and they're visiting prostitutes and And they got slave girls in the back room. And yet these men eventually began to follow Jesus. It's incredible what Christ can do. And I sometimes say, you know, if these men could be converted out of that culture back there in the first century, can't we stay out of it? One of the greatest challenges today for men is pornography. I mean, it is prevalent. And the statistics are scary. I think about my grandsons and their cell phones and phones. it's everywhere it's everywhere and it's so and women are getting pulled into it and some of the comments that are being made on public television right now by women is absolutely incredible and here are my my grandsons hearing this well what's the hope it's obviously in jesus christ it's in our families it's modeling godliness The same power that existed in the first century exists today. Jesus is in our life. But as men, we need accountability. We need encouragement. And we need to model for our sons and daughters what it means to be a godly man. And wherever we are in process, that's where we've got to begin and move forward in our lives, step by step. I often say, in fact, at the end of the book, I have a scale of these qualities – And I end up in my last video and I say, guys, as you look back over these, pick one or two where you want to improve. And I find if you can get a guy improving in one area, just one area, it spills over and encourages him. Because these are all interrelated concepts, really, in terms of this profile maturity.
SPEAKER 03 :
One of the cultural characteristics that gives me pause has to do with this bisexual trend, what the president of the United States has done to us by telling parents and telling the school superintendents that, that we're really not masculine and feminine we're not male and female we're sort of a blend of both and therefore we ought to deny that there is a difference that has the power to destroy the family in and of itself well absolutely and if you look at romans chapter one
SPEAKER 02 :
And if you go all the way back to the Old Testament, statements by God Himself, that basically God's design for man is male and female. And when you see the departure from that, as in Romans chapter 1, It's a departure from the design of God, and it becomes a learned experience, an experience that becomes preferential. Now, I think there are exceptions. I think there are biological situations that are really difficult to understand and difficult to deal with, but by and large, If you start teaching that people are born with that trend and you encourage experimentation with that trend, you're going to create preferences and it's going to lead to sexual deviation. And I think we have to deal with that. How does a church deal with it? Well, come as you are, but be transformed. Be changed. Here's a place where you can come, feel safe, but we're going to come to know Christ and change, and we'll help you to change. We've got to deal with that within our churches.
SPEAKER 03 :
Can we join together and warn parents not to be carried along by this river of culture, especially as regard to this bisexuality and the effort to change our kids from what they're born to be to what somebody else thinks they should be? Count me in on that one. You know, the courts are now deciding against parents in regard to their own children. I just read that this weekend. And we must resist it with everything we've got. Now, I'm not referring to those who are genetically wired differently. And in those cases, we must be compassionate and caring. But trying to reorder the whole culture is dangerous and is wicked.
SPEAKER 02 :
Absolutely. It's a violation of the will of God. But you know, Jim, I keep coming back to an encouraging thought to me. And it's true, I think, from Scripture. The darker it gets, the brighter our light can shine. If indeed we take seriously what God can do in our lives, in our marriages, in our families, we don't have to succumb to this. And as I said earlier, if the New Testament Christians could come out of a culture that was totally degenerate, I mean absolutely totally degenerate, can't we stay out of it? Yes, we can. Look at the resources we have. Not only in the power of God, the armor of God, the Word of God, but the churches that we have, the Christians around us. We've just got to discipline ourselves As husbands and fathers, to keep our eyes on Jesus Christ and be the men. In this case, the men that God wants us to be. And with God's help, we can be those men.
SPEAKER 03 :
This book, The Measure of a Man, would be a great tool for a pastor to preach on, wouldn't it?
SPEAKER 02 :
Yes, I think so. I've preached on these, yes.
SPEAKER 03 :
And a lot of other men.
SPEAKER 02 :
By the way, Jim, almost every one of these qualities, except two, are repeated for women in the New Testament. Is that right? The only two that are different are a husband and one wife. But in other places, it says a woman should be a woman of one man. And the other one is a father who manages well his household. But in another place, it says a woman should be a good manager of her household. So they all apply to women as well as men. Well, then you ought to rename it The Measure of a Man and a Woman. Well, I do. My wife and I did write a book called The Measure of a Woman. It's still in print. You also did a similar book with your son, didn't you? Yeah, The Measure of a Young Man. That's right. Yeah, that's Paul's instructions to Timothy, 1 Timothy 4, 12, I believe it is. Don't let anyone look down on you because you're young, but be an example in faith and purity and love and so forth. We built a little book on that one, too. But the one on women, we took Titus chapter 2, the older women.
SPEAKER 03 :
Yeah.
SPEAKER 02 :
And it lists the characteristics to teach the younger women. Yeah. And there are 12 characteristics there that we developed uniquely for women.
SPEAKER 03 :
We've been talking to Dr. Gene Getz, and he's the author of more than 60 books. Are a lot of those books still available today? Quite a few are, yes. I don't think I've caught up with you, though, Gene. The Measure of a Man, 20 Attributes of a Godly Man. Gene, it's been great having you here these two days. You're a man of God, a man that I respect very highly, and I'm glad to call you my friend. Thank you Jim. It's mutual. Let's do it again. Thanks.
SPEAKER 01 :
Well, you've been listening to Dr. James Dobson's Family Talk, and I hope you've been enjoying this meaningful conversation featuring Dr. Dobson and his longtime friend, Dr. Gene Goetz, as they shared their insights on God's blueprint for masculinity. Now, Dr. Goetz offered powerful reminders about making family time and prayer our priorities, while also sharing the story behind his influential book, The Measure of a Man. By the way, that book celebrated its 50th anniversary last year. and Dr. Goetz is still going and growing strong at 92 years young. By the way, if you'd like to learn more about Dr. Gene Goetz's work, including his Life Essential Study Bible, visit drjamesdobson.org forward slash family talk. That's also where you'll find complete program information, including part one of this interview as well. Well, some broadcasts are so powerful, they simply can't be forgotten. They're the kind of messages that stay with you, that shape your perspective and change how you live out your faith. That's exactly why we've created our 2024 Best of Broadcast Collection. While many listeners already have requested their copies, there's still time for you to receive this powerful resource. Carefully selected programs gathered on six CDs or one special digital download that capture the very best programs from the last year here on Family Talk. It's timeless wisdom and biblical truth that will inspire generations to come. Now we'll be happy to send you the complete six CD set or a convenient digital download. It's our way of thanking you for your donation of any amount in support of the Dr. James Dobson Family Institute. So don't miss out. Request your copy today when you make a secure donation online at drjamesdobson.org. That's drjamesdobson.org. You can also give a gift over the phone when you call 877-732-6825 or write to us at P.O. Box 39000, Colorado Springs, Colorado, the zip code 80949. For Dr. James Dobson and all of us here at the JDFI, I'm Roger Marsh. Thanks so much for listening. Be sure to join us again next time right here for another edition of Dr. James Dobson's Family Talk, the voice you trust for the family you love. This has been a presentation of the Dr. James Dobson Family Institute.
Join Dr. James Dobson and Dr. Gene Goetz as they delve into the spiritual and moral attributes that define godly masculinity. From exploring the roots of the Fellowship Bible Church to understanding the personal transformation that The Measure of a Man has inspired globally, this episode provides valuable lessons for men seeking purpose and guidance in their walk with Christ. Hear about life-changing testimonies and the influence of strong role models in shaping effective and impactful leaders.
SPEAKER 02 :
Welcome everyone to Family Talk. It's a ministry of the James Dobson Family Institute supported by listeners just like you. I'm Dr. James Dobson and I'm thrilled that you've joined us.
SPEAKER 01 :
Well, welcome to Family Talk with your host, psychologist, and bestselling author, Dr. James Dobson. I'm Roger Marsh, and today we're tackling something very close to every man's heart, and that is what it truly means to be a godly man in today's world. Whether you're a husband, father, or someone looking to make a real difference in the lives of other men, you will not want to miss the conversation you're about to hear. Our special guest today is Dr. Gene Goetz. His book, The Measure of a Man, has remained in print for over 40 years and continues to guide men along their spiritual journeys. As a former professor at both Moody Bible Institute and Dallas Theological Seminary, Dr. Goetz brings a wealth of wisdom to today's discussion. So here now is Dr. James Dobson to begin this important conversation.
SPEAKER 02 :
Well, hello, everyone, and welcome to Family Talk. I'm your host, Dr. James Dobson, and today I'm joined in studio by a man that I admire greatly. He's Dr. Gene Goetz. Dr. Goetz has been busy doing the Lord's work for many, many years. He's the founding pastor of the Fellowship Bible Church movement. And before that, he was a professor at Moody Bible Institute and Dallas Theological Seminary for 20 years. He's written over 60 books, many videos, and for 24 years has hosted the Daily Renewal radio program. He's now Pastor Emeritus at Chase Oak Church in Plano, Texas. And I have known him for a long time. Gene, how... How long? When did we meet?
SPEAKER 03 :
Well, Jim, my memory goes back to a praise gathering with the Gaithers. And I don't remember the exact timeline, but I had a booth with some of my books. And I looked across and you were over there hauling boxes.
SPEAKER 02 :
Oh, boy.
SPEAKER 03 :
That goes way back, setting up your booth. So, you know, we were there. And by the way, those Gaither gatherings were really neat. I loved those times.
SPEAKER 02 :
Yeah, they call it a praise gathering. Praise gathering. And that's really what it was.
SPEAKER 03 :
That's right. People did a lot of crying at that event. They did. And Bill used to take us aside, you know, those of us who are writers and say, now the musicians give us the emotion and you guys come in and give us the content. I remember some of those briefing sessions.
SPEAKER 02 :
Well, I finished up that night when we apparently met. I barely remember it. And I caught a plane to Kansas City on my way home. And I stopped there and spent the night. And I went to the hospital to see my dad, who had had a heart attack. And it was the last time I ever saw him because the next day I flew home and he died on December 4th. But that weekend there with the Gaithers was memorable to me. I mean, I was ministered to by the other speakers and it was just a wonderful time.
SPEAKER 03 :
I love the tone that Bell and Gloria have. set, you know, of ministry, you know, of real ministry. But talking about your dad, I remember you did some programs after that. I did. On your dad, and I remember hearing those programs.
SPEAKER 02 :
Did you have a close relationship with your dad?
SPEAKER 03 :
I did. I did. It's interesting. Dad was a wonderful, godly man, never educated, sixth grade, hardworking farmer, Mom graduated eighth grade. They were just salt of the earth people born in Illinois, Indiana. And I grew up on the farm and in a religious sect, really. And my dad really came to understand grace back in the 30s, listening to Moody Radio, Dr. Ironside. Oh, yeah. Coming from Moody Church. on an old battery-operated radio, and that's when my dad began to understand grace. And you didn't understand grace for a long time either. I didn't for a long time. In fact, I didn't really understand it until I became a student at Moody and And that began a whole new journey for me. And you went on to be a pastor at Moody, didn't you? Actually, no, a professor. I went on to Montana. I was in radio ministry there and youth ministry, finished my college, came back to Wheaton, entered the graduate school. and then began to teach part-time at Moody. And believe it or not, I don't think I've ever said this publicly on radio, but I think I was the youngest person to ever join the faculty at Moody. I started teaching at Moody when I was 23 years old.
SPEAKER 02 :
I'm teaching college students.
SPEAKER 03 :
And boy, was I green. I just tried to stay out ahead of the students. But Jim, I had a professor at Moody that believed in me when I didn't believe in myself. Because I came out of this background, my self-image was almost zero. And he took an interest in me. And he said, Gene, you have talent. You have ability. And he believed in me. And then he said to me, he said, someday I want you to come back and teach here. And that kind of went in one ear and out the other. But he kept after me. And I went on to finish college. He kept after me, encouraging me, which encouraged me to come back to Wheaton. then ultimately to go on to New York University to get my Ph.D. But, boy, this man believed in me when I didn't believe in myself.
SPEAKER 02 :
You know, I had a couple of those guys in my life, too. It's amazing what a great professor can do to a student. And I had a couple of them that really got a hold of me. You went to New York City University. New York University, yes. New York University.
SPEAKER 03 :
That's where you got your Ph.D. Ph.D., yeah. It was a nine-year process. Wow. It was an exciting experience, really, for me, because I was pretty grounded at that point. And I was already teaching at Moody. And because I'd had a lot of education courses, I chose a lot of psychology courses. And one of the things I was really interested in was integrating theology and psychology. So I'm sitting there listening to these professors who don't believe the Bible, don't believe in a sin nature. And I'm sitting there trying to integrate Freud with what God says about body, soul, and spirit. So the challenge to me was, boy, what can I learn from these people, you know, that will help me? So it was a nice experience.
SPEAKER 02 :
You went on to help found the Fellowship Bible Church. There were 12 of those?
SPEAKER 03 :
In the Dallas area.
SPEAKER 02 :
In the Dallas area.
SPEAKER 03 :
Basically what happened is Dr. Howard Hendricks, bless his heart, he's with Jesus.
SPEAKER 02 :
Yeah.
SPEAKER 03 :
invited me to come to Dallas in 1968 for Moody. I was at Moody for 13 years. Then I went to Dallas. And it was at Dallas that I really became challenged with Dr. Schaefer's work like the church at the end of the 20th century. And I went into studying with the students what the church should really be. And that went on for about seven years. And I wrote a book called Sharpening the Focus of the Church, which led me to start a church I never planned to start. And then I became a full-time pastor about 1973. And from that point forward, I've helped start churches. So I've been in the church planting ministry since about early mid-70s, which really is the roots of the book we're going to talk about today.
SPEAKER 02 :
And that book is The Measure of a Man, 20 Attributes of a Godly Man, which is now celebrating, you are celebrating, 40 years.
SPEAKER 03 :
Over 40 years. It was actually published in 1974, so calculate. No, more than that. 42 years ago. More than 40 years. And I often say the reason that it didn't go out of print ever was is because I borrowed the outline from the Apostle Paul, and we both know where he got it. Can't go wrong. I just brought it into the 20th and now the 21st century, and this, of course, is the fourth revision that Baker has just completed. And it's still out there and still available. Jim, it's doing better now than when it first came out. Really?
SPEAKER 02 :
And it's being used. There are 500,000 copies in print.
SPEAKER 03 :
Oh, over a million. Over a million. Over a million. And in 30 languages around the world. Yeah. So it's because it's super cultural, Jim. You know, I kind of kid and say, you know, the Lord, when we get to heaven, Paul get the rewards. I get penalized for plagiarism. But basically, it's those 20 qualities of maturity in 1 Timothy 3 and Titus 1. And the way that all happened was that when I started the first church, I met with this group of guys. I invited them to study. About 25 men showed up. And I said, okay, guys, why don't we take these 20 qualities from 1 Timothy 3, Titus 1. I'll lead the first one. We'll spend a half hour in the Word, see what it means. Being above reproach was the first one. And then let's have a discussion how we can apply it in our life. And then I said, Jim, would you take next week? Bill, would you take next week? So there were volunteers, guys that came up, and I began to take notes. and journal because it was the most dynamic Bible study I'd ever been in. And what happened was that Bill Gregg, and you'll perhaps remember Bill Gregg. Of course. Came to Dallas. He'd heard about the church, how it was growing. He said, Gene, what's going on? And I said, well, Bill, I'm in this Bible study and here's this. I had a notebook and I had recorded what was going on, just journaling. And of course, we'd end every discussion on how we could apply it in our lives and And he looked at it. I kid you not. I'm not exaggerating. Maybe ten seconds. And he said, I want this as a book. Would you write a book? And he pulled out a contract right there in the office. A writer's dream. And he said, would you do this as a book? And so that was the birth of The Measure of Man. And I had no idea what was going to happen from that point forward. And so God has just chosen to use it.
SPEAKER 02 :
And as you indicate, men need this information as much today or more than they did in the 1970s. Oh, absolutely. This is so foundational. There's such confusion about what it means to be a man today, a godly man.
SPEAKER 03 :
Yeah, and it's really interesting because, you know, in both of those passages, 1 Timothy 3 and Titus 1, And Paul is writing, you know, to Timothy and Ephesus, Titus and Crete, and they're appointing leaders. But the thing that some people misinterpret is he's not saying these are qualities only for leaders. He's saying, look, Timothy, look, Titus, if they want to be a leader, great, but here's what a mature man looks like. And then he listed all these qualities. So these are goals for every Christian man. So, boy, we just dove into this. Guys' lives were being changed. It was just open discussion and... And one of the exciting things while I was – this, of course, is a multimedia version with these QR codes and videos.
SPEAKER 02 :
But while I was preparing – So you've actually done a DVD series where you talk about each one of those 20. That's right. They're actually QR codes. They're on the internet. I'm not a techie.
SPEAKER 03 :
So I don't know what QR – They're digital. And the QR code is – by the way, Jim, I often tell older people, if you don't understand QR codes, ask your 7-year-old.
SPEAKER 02 :
Yeah, he probably knows. They'll tell you.
SPEAKER 03 :
But basically, I've done 42 videos, one at the beginning of each chapter and one at the end of each chapter. The first one is addressed to the reader, where I encourage them to get into the chapter, what to look for. At the end of the chapter, I give suggestions for group discussion. So there are 42 videos. And these are available just with your cell phone. So you can take your cell phone and you can download them. And by the way, about 90% of the men, 99% of men have cell phones today. And so it's always available. They can take and put it on a big screen TV.
SPEAKER 02 :
I want to read for our listeners the table of contents so they can really see what this book is all about. I hope I don't put anybody to sleep doing this, but it's helpful to be able to visualize where you're going. Right. These are the 28 qualities. I'm telling you, this book is a classic. And I'm saying this to our listeners, especially to the men who are out there. If you've struggled a bit with what God wants of you, this is a good place to find out why and what. And here's the list of chapters. Becoming a faithful man. Building a good reputation, maintaining moral purity, we were just talking about, living a balanced life, demonstrating wisdom, making God's truth attractive, sharing our resources, communicating sensitively. being moderate in all things, overcoming self-centeredness, handling anger appropriately, avoiding destructive behavior, treating others fairly, being a peacemaker, learning generosity, fathering God's way, loving God wholeheartedly, being just and upright, living a holy life, and becoming a disciplined man." And you have done this supplementary material to explain. The videos, yes. The QR code videos. And, of course, it's written in illustrations and detail.
SPEAKER 03 :
You know, some of the illustrations of what God has done. And the exciting thing to me, Jim, is I travel a lot and I speak. And I have guys in their 50s, 60s come up to me and they say, Gene, that's the first book I read when I became a Christian. I was converted through crusade or someplace. They're going back to the 70s, and they're telling me, like a week ago, someone says, this book changed my life. While I was doing the first video on this, just for this revision, I got a call from a friend of mine who had talked with Tommy Cox, who was a coach with the Texas Association, and Forty years ago he got a divorce. Someone gave him the measure of a man. He remarried his wife and they've been happily married for 40 years. And he was just telling this friend of mine about the measure of a man we had never met. And I included that story in this video. But that is so rewarding to see. And it's God's Word because every one of those captions It's a contemporary caption, but it represents a specific word from the Scriptures that is listed in those two columns, those qualities of maturity.
SPEAKER 02 :
Let me take a run at describing who needs this book because of the culture that we live in today. And you help me with this. It is a man whose father was not much of a father, not much of a dad to you. He didn't model what it means to be a man. And you really don't have much of a clue as to how a Christian man approaches life. You have no idea, some of you, how really to be a dad yourself. You've got these kids around your feet. They look up to you, and you're kind of lost in knowing how to relate to them. If you're fighting with your wife and you're not sure why, because you really don't want to do that, but it's just the way it comes down, help me with it. With the culture as it is today, who needs this book?
SPEAKER 03 :
Well, I would say that most of us need it. We all need it because we're living in a world that is deteriorating and conforming to the world. And we battle that every day. But picking up on your illustration, the concept that comes to me, Jim, is that a lot of men need reparenting. Now, that simply means they haven't had a good father image themselves. And I believe that God has created a wonderful relationship channel a wonderful way, a wonderful means to reparent. He created the family of God. And if we function as a body of believers who love each other, and that includes, let's narrow it to men, men who will put their arms around you, who will love you, who will demonstrate to you, who will show you, who will be honest with you, who will be vulnerable with you, we need to reparent each other. I had a man that came on my staff eventually. He was a pharmacist. Was in the drug business on the side. Came to Christ. Came to seminary. Came to our church with his wife. And she found out how he was dealing drugs on the side. That's how they live in these big beautiful homes. She had anger problems. He had no father image. But if he were here today, he would say, Gene, you reparented me as a pastor. You put your arms around me. You encouraged me. But it wasn't just me. It was a group of guys around him. So he had a model. And we modeled that for each other. So I think the reparenting concept is a very important thing. And I saw men reparented as we went through this process because we were learning from each other. And we all brought baggage, you know, from this or that. And by lifting each other up and encouraging each other and building each other up and honoring one another, that's the process. I think that God's design whereby we can begin to really measure up to the stature of the fullness of Christ.
SPEAKER 02 :
I want to describe someone else who needs this book and these materials. There are a lot of guys who are in evangelical churches. They're in Sunday school classes, perhaps. There are a lot of men around them. And you look around and you say, those men really need to be reparented. They need this information. And this will help you start a Bible study in that setting that gives the kind of content that we live with every day. And in the kind of encounters we have with evil and what to do with it, what to do with the woman that flirts with you. And, you know, there's something behind that flirtation, you know, the kind of problem, real life problems that people deal with today.
SPEAKER 03 :
Yeah. And and boy, we all need that. We need that encouragement. But another thing, Jim, is mentoring. It's really interesting. A story comes to mind. D.D. Lewis played with the Dallas Cowboys, middle linebacker, five Super Bowl rings, attended my church, retired from the Cowboys, dropped out. I talked to Landry. We were both concerned about him. He disappeared for two years. Marriage broke up. Family isolated from his kids. One day he calls me. This is Dee Dee. I need help. He was addicted to drugs, alcohol, and sex. Failed in two businesses. I said, Dee Dee, I want to help you. Would you meet with me? We met for 20 sessions in a motel. and went through The Measure of a Man together. I'd written the book at that time. But I said, Didi, you've got to make a commitment. If you fall off the wagon, if you fall into sin, you've got to tell me. And he was very honest. And then I got him into a small group of guys. And today, in fact, just a couple weeks ago, I sat down and I interviewed Didi after all those years and talked about that experience. In fact, he's in one of the videos where he shares his journey But these men need other men in their lives. And there are a variety of ways to do that in small groups. But just mentoring. Fathers and sons. I have a father and son who went through this together. The son actually chose the book. And the father and son went through all these at Starbucks. And it just brought them together in a tremendous way. So there's so many ways in which all this can be worked out. You have children. I do. I have three wonderful kids. I have eight grandkids. Do you? Oh. Every time they came along, it's a new worship experience. And they know the Lord? They know the Lord and they love the Lord.
SPEAKER 02 :
Yes. Wow. And when you look back on your life with all the things you've done, all the things you have written and pastored, all the churches you've pastored and everything, does that rise to the top of all of your accomplishments?
SPEAKER 03 :
It does, but I have to be vulnerable with you. You remember what Billy Graham said if he had to do life over again? And I'm not comparing myself with Billy. He said, I'd spend more time with my family. So would I. In other words, I've got to be honest. that there were times that I should have been at those football games that I wasn't there. I was so busy, feeling so dedicated to my work that I neglected my kids. And I thank God for my wife who would step in and say, hey, Dad means to be here. But the fact is that with my son particularly, we have a wonderful relationship, but there was a point in time where I had to sit down with Kenton and say, you know, Kenton, I feel like I missed some of those games. I should have been there. I could have been there. And I said an interesting thing because he was a racer up in Colorado at the time. And I said, I asked the elders if I could spend a whole month with him up there. And I went up, and I was skiing with him, and he was racing. And I said, Ken, I said, you know, I wish I had been at some of those games. And I said, I want to make it up to you. And he said something to me, Jim, that just punctured. He said, Dad, you can't make it up. Just be here now. Just be here now. And I thought, wow. Wow. That is perceptive. That is perceptive. So we've developed a great relationship, but we all have stuff where we've neglected our kids, I think, where we make choices that we wish we could do over again.
SPEAKER 02 :
But because you fail, you don't give up. Gene, our time is gone. We've been talking to Dr. Gene Goetz, who is a pastor emeritus of Chase Oak Church in Plano, Texas, and has pastored many churches and been a professor on many occasions, Moody Bible Institute and others, and is still out there. You're in your 80s. Yeah, 84, Jim. I think I got four on you. And you haven't slowed down a bit. Yeah, God's grace and mama's genes. Do you hear the echoes of the word retirement in your ears?
SPEAKER 03 :
I don't read it in the Bible. I don't either. I don't either. I think as we were sharing over lunch, I think the most wonderful way in which we can stay healthy is, number one, keep that relationship with God what it should be. stay physically healthy, which I'm working on, and emotionally, psychologically healthy, which relates to our spiritual life as well. And my desire is just to serve Jesus until he takes me home.
SPEAKER 02 :
Will you do another program with us? I'd love to. We will pick up right here. I appreciate you, Gene. I appreciate your love for the Lord. Well, thank you. Appreciate the invitation to be here.
SPEAKER 01 :
You've been listening to Dr. James Dobson's Family Talk, and today we heard part one of a special conversation featuring Dr. Dobson and his longtime friend, Christian author and radio host, Dr. Gene Goetz. They've been exploring God's blueprint for masculinity. And you know, this year marks an incredible milestone. It's the 50th anniversary of Dr. Goetz's seminal book called The Measure of a Man. To learn more about Dr. Gene Goetz and his latest work called The Life Essential Study Bible, you'll find that information at drjamesdobson.org forward slash family talk. And if you're looking for meaningful inspiration as we begin a new year, our 2024 Best of Broadcast Collection Dr. James Dobson, Jr. Well, I'm Roger Marsh, thanking you for joining us today and inviting you to join us again next time for part two of this powerful conversation featuring Dr. James Dobson and Dr. Jean Goetz right here on Family Talk. This has been a presentation of the Dr. James Dobson Family Institute.
In this insightful episode of Family Talk, Anne Graham Lotz delivers a profound message on the significance of navigating these challenging times with strong faith. Drawing from scriptural prophecies and current world events, Lotz challenges listeners to reflect on their spiritual journey and encourages them to return to God. Her compelling narrative emphasizes the imminent possibility of revival if people are willing to rend their hearts and commit to change.
SPEAKER 02 :
Hello, everyone. You're listening to Family Talk, a radio broadcasting ministry of the James Dobson Family Institute. I'm Dr. James Dobson, and thank you for joining us for this program. Well, Happy New Year and welcome back to Family Talk. I'm Roger Marsh. In Matthew 24, 21, Jesus spoke of a time of, quote, great tribulation. Such has not been seen from the beginning of the world until now. No, and never will be. Looking at today's headlines, many of us wonder if we're actually approaching those times right now. So how do we navigate these challenging days, and how can we help restore America's spiritual foundation? Well, today on Family Talk, we're going to hear a timeless message from Anne Graham Lotz, daughter of the late Billy Graham, and a powerful voice for Christ in her own right. Though recorded several years ago, her insights on the last days are more relevant now than ever before. So let's kick off our first broadcast of 2025 with a look at the last days and listen now to Anne Graham Lotz here on this special edition of Dr. James Dobson's Family Talk.
SPEAKER 01 :
Verse 9, they rush upon the city, run along the wall, they climb into the houses like thieves. They enter through the windows. What does that remind you of? Matthew 24, doesn't it? When Jesus said that day will come upon you like a thief, don't let it come upon you like a thief. And he was speaking of the rapture, which makes me think that that's simultaneous with judgment on America. Think of all the believers that are going to be gone at that moment. The believers in government at every level, the businesses every level, families, just if every believer, every person who put their faith in Jesus in America was suddenly disappeared, that would be judgment on America. And it comes like a thief because you and I are expecting it. So we're looking for that sky to unfold. We're listening for the trumpet sound. We know Jesus is coming back any moment, but the secular world thinks it's a joke. And thanks to Harold Camping, who made it a laughable matter. Nobody takes it seriously. So it will catch them like a thief. It will come suddenly. And... It's destructive. It involves the environment. Verse 10, before them the earth shakes, the sky trembles, the sun and moon are dark, and the stars no longer shine. Earthquakes, cosmic disturbances, and that's what Jesus said. And I know Jesus was talking about the end of the tribulation period, but this is a harbinger, okay, when he said, the sun will be darkened. That's a solar eclipse. Sun will be darkened. And the moon will not give its light, Jesus said. Those are lunar eclipses, Jesus said. The day of the Lord, his judgment is accompanied by signs in the heavens. The sun darkened, the moon will not give its light. The stars will fall from the sky. Those are meteorites. And not only is this destructive, but, oh, get this, please. Verse 11, directed by God. God is in charge. The Lord. This is your Lord, okay? This is our Lord Jesus Christ. This is the creator of the universe who came down from heaven to become your savior, who rose from the dead to be your king who sits on the throne. It's the Lord who thunders at the head of his army. His forces are beyond number. Mighty are those who obey his command. All of this is under his command. The day of the Lord is great. It is dreadful. Who can endure it? The lion of Judah is roaring. And he's getting ready to rule the world. And when you see things falling apart, they're not, they're falling into place. He's bringing about his kingdom on this earth. And it's going to be preceded by judgment. Judgment is coming. Zephaniah says, the great day of the Lord is near, near and coming quickly. The cry on the day of the Lord is bitter. And this is in caps. The mighty warrior shouts his battle cry. And they think he's not paying attention. They think he's indifferent. They think he's too old to act. Oh, just wait. He's coming. And that day will be a day of wrath, a day of distress and anguish, a day of trouble and ruin, darkness and gloom, clouds and blackness, a day of trumpet and battle cry against the fortified cities and the cornered towers. And this is God. I will bring such distress on all people that they will grope about like those who are blind because they have sinned against the Lord. Neither their silver nor their gold will be able to save them on the day of God's wrath. Judgment is soon, judgment is sure, and judgment is severe. How seriously do you take God's word? That's what God's word says. And Jesus says, not one jot or tittle would pass away until all would be fulfilled. God's word is so, what it says it means, what he means he says, you can take it to the bank. God is moving in judgment, and we can look at our world and know that. And I just pray this resonates in your heart. I don't care if it does scare you to death, you know? But listen to me. He's coming for the bad guys, all right? And as we see some of the bad guys on the front pages of our papers, I just say, Lord, bring it on. But even Isis, I would give him opportunity to repent first. Then I would take him out. But that's what he says next, isn't it? God is moving, but God is loving. And Habakkuk 3.2 says, oh Lord, I've heard of your fame. I stand in awe of your deeds, oh Lord, in wrath. Remember mercy. Return to the Lord. And that's an opportunity he gives. Verse 12, even now. Even at this so late time. Even as Alan pointed out in the last seconds. even now you can return to the Lord. And he says, return to the Lord, even now declares the Lord. That's an opportunity that's offered by God himself. The one who is bringing it on, the Lord who's directing the army says, even now you can return to me. And who is he? Isaiah said, in the year that my life began to unravel and bad things began to happen and the harbingers, you know, and King Uzziah died, I looked up and I saw the Lord seated on the throne, high and exalted. And Jesus said, Isaiah saw my day and rejoiced. Isaiah, when all of that was falling, but he saw a vision of Jesus seated on the throne. Ezekiel, You know, when Daniel, Meshach, Shadrach, and Abednego were taken in that deportation, they landed in Nebuchadnezzar's palace. Ezekiel was taken in the deportation. He landed in a refugee camp. He was discarded, not good enough to be in the palace. So he's sitting on a garbage dump beside a dirty irrigation canal, and he's looking towards the west. You know, he's longing towards Jerusalem, and he wants to go home, and a storm comes into his life, so things get worse. But on the wings of the storm, there's a crystal platform. And on the crystal platform is the throne of Sapphire. And on the throne of Sapphire is someone who is exactly like the son of man. Coming to Ezekiel in his storm and he saw the Lord. High and lifted up, exalted. And there's a vision of Jesus. The apostle John on Patmos looks up at the end of human history and he sees heaven opened. And Jesus is still seated on the throne. In charge. He is high. No one in all of the universe is higher than he is. He's exalted. No one has more authority than he has. And he's exalted. No one is greater. No one is more powerful. He is the almighty. And it's the almighty, all-powerful, high, exalted king who sits on the throne, who offers you and me the opportunity to return to him even now. Rend your heart, he says. not your garments. What does that mean? It means when you come to the cove, and I spoke to one of you last night, you've been here 19 times, so thank you for spending your time here, but let me ask you something. When you come to the cove, And you say, you listen to the speaker and you say, you know, I really need to start that. When I go home, I need to do that. I need to go there. I need to cut that out. I need to repent of that. And you go home and you don't go there and you don't say that and you don't do that and you don't repent. That's rending your garments. You know? To have regret, that was Judas. To repent and weep tears of bitterness is like Peter. So rend your heart. That's just a beautiful description of deep repentance. And I believe it's time to repent. For God's people to follow through on the commitments that they keep making to him. And Jesus said, didn't he, that you have to eat of me. And people thought, ooh, is he talking about cannibalism? But he's talking about eating my word and swallowing it and ingesting it until his word becomes part of your life. You live it out. That's what he told Ezekiel. I love Ezekiel, by the way. Great old crazy prophet. But Ezekiel was somebody that God said, eat the scroll, eat the word. So he ate it and he was chewing it and chewing it and chewing it. But he was keeping it up there. And God said, Ezekiel, swallow it. And he had to swallow it. And how many of you come here or to a seminar, you go to church, you go to Bible, and you keep the word all in your head. It's just all head knowledge until you know everything and you can answer every question. But swallow it. Take it into your life. Apply it. Obey it. Live it out. Rend your heart, not your garments. Hosea says... Chapter 14, verses 1 and 2. Return to the Lord your God. Your sins have been your downfall. Take words with you and return to the Lord. If we want revival, do you know where revival begins? Gypsy Lee Smith, who was a British evangelist, was asked that question. And he said, you know where revival begins? He said, you draw a circle around yourself and you make sure everything in that circle is right with God. That's where revival begins. So you can go to convocations, sacred assemblies, the National Day of Prayer, seminars, prayer groups. Pray for them. And we'll never have revival. Not until you and I, as God's people, rend our hearts. This became very personal for me several years ago. I was up on the mountain preparing for a seminar here. It was our intensive. So it went for four days. I would be giving six messages, seven workshops. And so I got that, set aside 10 days to prepare all the material. And the first day I pulled out my Bible, my notebook and, you know, went to... Start preparing the first message and I could get nothing. And I said, God, help me. Please break open the passage. Nothing. So I thought, well, Ann, you're tired. Get a good night's sleep. So I did. I got a good breakfast and I got up and I got my pad and my pen and I was nothing. And I said, God, you see, I've got this big seminar coming. I need to get this message done so I can get the next one done. The next one. I had it all, you know, patterned out and nothing. And then there's a little whisper. Ann, I don't want to talk about the messages. I want to talk about you. And I said, I don't want to talk about me. I want to talk about the messages. And after I give the messages, then we'll talk about me. Silence. Until I got on my knees with tears coming down my face. And I said, all right, God, let's talk about me. For seven days. we talked about me. And it was triggered by a book I was reading on revival so that I could prepare my messages. I had brought it for them. And in this book, this old-timey revivalist had written a list of sins. And he said, read through the list three times. So I thought, all right, to humor this old-timey revivalist, I'm just going to do that. So I read through the list the first time, and I was so smug and self-righteous, I felt so good because not one of those sins was in my life. So I thought, all right, I'll read it through again. So I wrote it through the second time, and this time I felt very spiritual because I could see maybe two or three of those in my life. Third time I read it through, I saw every sin on that list in my life in one form or another And I'm here to tell you, I repented for seven days. Every time I opened my Bible, every time I read something, a verse would leap off the page. And God was convicting me of something else, sin I didn't even know was in my life. And that's when he gave me those verses from Hosea and returned to me with words. Stop making assumptions. Confess your sin. Call it what I call it. So I did. After seven days, he let me know from his word he was through, or at least for that time, you know. I asked him to make sure, and he assured me he was through. God said, if my people who are called by my name will humble themselves and pray and seek my face and turn from their wicked ways, then I'll hear from heaven and I'll forgive their sins. And I'll heal their land. That doesn't sound like judgment to me. Maybe he's just waiting until you and I stand in the gap for our nation. So return to him. And to turn to him is to turn to him in prayer. To return to him is maybe reactivate your prayer life. How's your prayer life? We can pray 24-7 as we're traveling, as we're carpooling, as we're shopping, as we're doing our business. But I believe we need to return, he says, with fasting. And that means turning away from everything so we can turn to God in prayer. Do you fast? Jesus said, Matthew 6-7, when you fast is not an option. Make time to get along with God. one of the ways God has moved in my life in the last two years. And it's not been easy. It's been so different. And he called me home to take care of my husband. To get off the road, he closed the door to arena revivals, so many things as I travel. And so I'm home doing laundry, cooking meals, managing meds, talking to doctors, arranging schedules. You know, I am the caregiver. My daddy has a team of people. I'm the team. And I have some of his wonderful friends that help me with the transportation and stuff. But while I've been home, I've had extended quiet times to turn to the Lord and turn away from everything else and listen to him speak. And during those times, he pressed on my heart to offer 777 last year, our prayer call for revival. And 911, that emergency call to pray for the peace of Jerusalem and put other things on my heart. I don't think I would have been open to that. You know, I take my iPad now into my quiet time. And if God puts somebody on my heart and seems to speak to me through the word for somebody, I just text them or email them and it's amazing what he's done. I love it. It's what I think angels do. We can go to one person or we can go to 10,000 people, you know, but just to be used of God to speak into somebody else's life. What are you missing? Because you're not spending time alone with God in prayer. And somewhere I've lost my list of all the people. Let me just run through it real quickly because Noah was alone with God when God revealed that judgment was coming and how he could offer salvation to his generation. His generation wasn't saved, but his family was. Abraham was alone with God when he received God's promise and then God's covenant that would impact his descendants up until the present day. Jacob was alone with God when he was changed from being a manipulator, a deceiver, into a prince who had power with God. Moses was alone with God when he heard him speak through the burning bush. When he was on Mount Sinai and he received God's word. Joshua was alone with God when God told him how to overcome the enemy stronghold. Gideon was alone with God when he called him to deliver his people. Elijah was alone with God on Mount Carmel praying for rain. And alone with God in the cave when he was recalled to ministry. Elisha was alone with God praying for the widow's dead son when he was raised to life. Peter was alone with God when he had that vision to go to Cornelius and open the door for the gospel to go to Gentiles without becoming Jews first. Saul of Tarsus was alone with God for three years in the desert where he was transformed into the Apostle Paul. John the Apostle was alone with God on Patmos when he saw the revelation of the glory of Jesus. What are you missing because you don't spend time alone with God? Just tick through some of those. Are you missing how he wants to use you to bring your family to salvation? Are you missing the promise he has for you and your descendants that you can claim and drive a stake in and stand in the gap for your children? Are you missing the transformation of your own character from somebody who's been maybe like Jacob into a prince who has power with God, princess? Are you missing hearing him speak like Moses did? Like Joshua did. How you can overcome the enemy's stronghold. Are you missing a recall into ministry? Are you missing a vision of the glory of Jesus? How do you know what you're missing? If you don't get back, return to God. Turn away from everything else. God himself is extending this offer to you. He's giving you an opportunity. Even now, return to me. Rend your heart, not your garments. Turn away from everything else. Turn to him. Spend time this afternoon when you go home, going through that list, asking God. And you know something? When you finish that list, don't be limited to that list. I expect there are things in your life I would never have a clue about, but God sees and God knows. I want you to understand something. Oh, please let me clarify this. If you've ever been to the cross and you've confessed your sin, you will never come under God's judgment for the guilt of your sin because Jesus on the cross paid it all. He has taken God's judgment for your sin. But God disciplines us, doesn't he? He chastens those whom he loves. And no one enjoys the discipline. No one enjoys the chastening. It's painful, but it produces in us a fruit of righteousness. And he wants to make some adjustments, realign your priorities, cleanse you, that he might bring revival to your heart and then through you to somebody else. So, if we turn to him, if we return to him, if we rend our hearts, how will he respond? Verse 13, he is gracious. That means he's inclined to show favor when it's not deserved. He's compassionate. That's the way you would describe a mother's love for her baby. He's slow to anger. He's patient even with the wicked, evil, rebellious sinners. That's why he pauses in his judgment. It's progressive. He's just so reluctant. That's why he does it slow. Abounding in love, overflowing with covenant-keeping loyalty to you. And then it says, who knows, but that he would relent. That's breathe a sigh of relief. That he doesn't have to bring the judgment now. Who knows that he would relent and leave behind a blessing. Revival is possible. That's why I believe this message is heavy on my heart. Judgment is coming. I can see it on the horizon. It's coming in that black darkness and I can feel it and see it. But... There is hope. The light shines in the darkness. There is still time for God's people to wake up. Revival is still a possibility. Otherwise, God wouldn't be warning us. And he's telling us even now, you can return to me, rend your heart, and I'll relent of the judgment that otherwise is going to fall. Revival is possible for us to have a third great awakening. But the price is very high. The price is a broken heart and a changed life. Are you willing to pay the price? So, never mind yesterday. This is now. That was then. From this day forward, return to God. Rend your heart. And recall God's people. I'm not going through the last of these. Just touch on verse 17. Let the priests who minister before the Lord weep between the temple porch and the altar. Where was that? Between the temple porch and the altar. You know where that was? It was on the way to the place of sacrifice. Recall God's people to the cross. Recall God's people to the gospel. The cross is not just for them. It is. Praise God. It's for sinners who can come and get right with God and have their sin forgiven and receive eternal life and know they're going to heaven when they die. But the cross is for you and me. Come back to the cross. Ground is level at the foot of the cross and we come to the cross and we confess our sin, bring words with you, confess your sin, ask God to cleanse you and by your example, lead others to the cross. So in the light of the harbingers, there is hope. God is moving and his judgment is sure and It's slow, it's soon, and it's severe. But he's also loving. And he's offering you and me the opportunity right now, even now, to return to him.
SPEAKER 02 :
Well, what a powerful message indeed from Anne Graham Lotz here on Family Talk. Her deep understanding of Scripture and her passion for the Lord always shines through when she's teaching. We've spent the last couple of days here on the broadcast exploring her thoughts on the end times. I know this is one of Dr. Dobson's all-time favorite messages, and I hope you found it as enlightening as I have. Thank you so much for joining us. allowing us to reach even more families with biblical wisdom and hope in the year ahead. Throughout the year here at Family Talk, we receive countless messages from listeners who share how our programs have touched their lives. And while many have already requested our 2024 Best of Broadcast collection, please know there's still time for you to receive and enjoy these impactful conversations. Now, this is the perfect resource to add to your personal ministry library or to share with friends. The collection is available as a six-CD set, or a digital download, and we'll be happy to send it to you as our way of thanking you for your gift of any amount in support of Family Talk. These carefully selected programs have inspired spiritual growth and brought positive changes to families just like yours to people all over the country. So request your copy today when you make a donation online. at drjamesdobson.org. Our website's absolutely secure at drjamesdobson.org. Or you can send your request through the U.S. mail when you write to us at Dr. James Dobson's Family Talk, P.O. Box 39000, Colorado Springs, Colorado, the zip code 80949. Well, I'm Roger Marsh, and on behalf of Dr. Dobson and the entire team here at Family Talk, thanks so much for listening. Join us again next time right here for another edition of Dr. James Dobson's Family Talk. This has been a presentation of the Dr. James Dobson Family Institute.
In this enlightening episode of Family Talk, Dr. James Dobson and Roger Marsh bring you a powerful message from Anne Graham Lotz on discerning the signs of the last days. Anne, the daughter of renowned evangelist Billy Graham, provides a biblical lens to understand the harbingers and disasters we witness today. She emphasizes the need for faith and vigilance as she delves into the Scriptures, drawing from the book of Joel to convey a message of hope and preparation.
SPEAKER 01 :
Welcome everyone to Family Talk. It's a ministry of the James Dobson Family Institute supported by listeners just like you. I'm Dr. James Dobson and I'm thrilled that you've joined us. Well, welcome to Family Talk, the broadcast ministry of the Dr. James Dobson Family Institute. I'm Roger Marsh, and you know, with headlines flooding our screens and uncertainty in the air, many of us are wondering, are we witnessing the signs of the last days? Well, here on New Year's Eve 2024, we are blessed to be sharing a special message from Anne Graham Lutz that will help us make sense of these challenging times and understand them through a biblical lens. Anne Graham Lotz is the daughter of the late Billy Graham, and she'll share a powerful message about discerning the times we're living in and how we can respond with faith and wisdom. So join us right now for this special presentation on The Last Days featuring Anne Graham Lotz on today's edition of Dr. James Dobson's Family Talk.
SPEAKER 02 :
Open your Bibles, if you would, to Joel chapter 2, just the first 17 verses. Blow the trumpet in Zion. Sound the alarm on my holy hill. Let all who live in the land tremble, for the day of the Lord is coming. It is close at hand, a day of darkness and gloom, a day of clouds and blackness. Like dawn spreading across the mountains, a large and mighty army comes, such as never was of old, nor ever will be in ages to come. Before them, fire devours. Behind them, a flame blazes. Before them, the land is like the Garden of Eden. Behind them, a desert waste. Nothing escapes them. They have the appearance of horses. They gallop along like cavalry. With a noise like that of chariots, they leap over the mountaintops like a crackling fire consuming stubble, like a mighty army drawn up for battle. At the sight of them, nations are in anguish. Every face turns pale. They charge like warriors. They scale walls like soldiers. They all march in line, not swerving from their course. They do not jostle each other. Each march is straight ahead. They plunge through defenses without breaking ranks. They rush upon the city. They run along the wall. They climb into the houses like thieves who enter through the windows." Before them the earth shakes, the sky trembles. The sun and moon are darkened and the stars no longer shine. The Lord thunders at the head of his army. His forces are beyond number and mighty are those who obey his command. The day of the Lord is great, it is dreadful. Who can endure it? Even now, declares the Lord, return to me with all your heart, with fasting and weeping and mourning. Rend your heart, not your garments. Return to the Lord your God, for he is gracious and compassionate, slow to anger and abounding in love, and he relents from sending calamity. Who knows? He may turn and have pity and leave behind a blessing, grain offerings and drink offerings for the Lord your God. Blow the trumpet in Zion, declare a holy fast, call a sacred assembly, gather the people, consecrate the assembly, bring together the elders, gather the children, those nursing at the breast. Let the bridegroom leave his room in the brighter chamber. Let the priests who minister before the Lord weep between the temple porch and the altar. Let them say, spare your people, O Lord. Do not make your inheritance an object of scorn, a byword among the nations. Why should they say among the peoples, where is their God? How many of you are a little frightened or unsettled by the harbingers? You went to bed last night, maybe it was hard to go to sleep because you're thinking about, you know, the disasters, not only in the world, but coming in your own life, and literally, maybe you just wanted to pull the covers up over your head, but I think a lot of people, that's why they stay asleep, isn't it? They don't want to see what's going on. They want to pretend that this is just, you know, one cycle after another cycle, and this is a bump in human history, and we're going to get past it, and we're going to go on, and no, we're not. I believe we're coming up to the end of human history as we know it. And it's time for God's people to wake up. Judgment is coming. But in the midst of all the darkness, in the midst of all of the harbingers and the disasters, there is a light that's shining in the darkness, and it's the hope that God gives us. And just as an example, you're in North Carolina, and our coast is very rugged. And we have outer banks, and there are hidden shoals and sandbars, and it's called the graveyard of the Atlantic because ships that come past North Carolina run aground on one of those sandbars, and they get stuck, and then the waves, all the swirling currents, break them up, and they get smashed to smithereens. And so along our coast, there are lighthouses that dot our coast. The most familiar one to you, perhaps, is the Cape Hatteras Lighthouse. It stands 210 feet tall. It looks like a barber's pole. You know, it's wrapped in black and white stripes. The beam from that Cape Hatteras lighthouse goes for 20 miles. It can be clearly seen for 20 miles. It has never gone out, not even during the Civil War. And the purpose of the lighthouse is to, for when ships are passing in the darkness and they're going through those dangerous waters, the purpose is to let them know where they are and to give them direction so they can navigate the dangerous waters that they're in and they can come through to safety. And God has given us a lighthouse. He's given us a light. He's given us hope that shows us where we are so we know where we are in human history. And then he gives us the word to tell us how to navigate the dangerous waters that we're in. And our hope is Jesus. I mean, we know that. But in chapter 2 of Joel, verses 1 to 17, the hope specifically is the fact that God is on the move. He's moving. And the same God who's moving in judgment is a God who is loving. So let's look together at the fact that God is moving in our world today. And I often get questions when I do interviews and the person will ask me, Anne, how do you see God moving in the world? And I know what they're looking for. You know, you're seeing churches getting filled with people and people going to Bible study. And you see people repenting of their sin. And when you give the invitation, people just packed out at the altar and people getting it. And, you know, they're wanting evidence of God's movement to be answers to prayer and blessing and miracles. And sometimes God moves like that. Praise God. But sometimes when God moves, it's not pleasant. And we never think that when disasters and the harbingers come that that's evidence that God is moving in our world. But God is moving. And so in chapter two, verse one, it says, blow the trumpets, get people's attention. And I told you last night, that first trumpet blast was to arouse the people, to let them know there's an invading army or there's something they need to rally to push back the enemy. It was an alarm that was going off. In fact, in that same verse, it says, sound the alarm. And it's just another way of saying, blow the trumpet, sound the alarm, let the people know this is not a drill. This is the real thing. And as I understand it, when a ship has an emergency, they have one long blast of the ship's whistle and then seven short ones. It's a seven-bell alarm. And so we think of a seven-bell alarm as an alarm that's an emergency. In Missouri, there was an apartment complex that had a seven-bell alarm. And the firefighters got there at 3 o'clock in the morning. They banged on the doors of the apartments, waking people up, getting them out. People, it was freezing cold. They came out in just their nightgowns and pajamas. They just ran out with whatever they had on. Their apartment complex burned to the ground. Dozens of people were left homeless, but not one life was lost. Because when they heard the alarm, they heeded it. And Joel is saying, blow the trumpet, arouse the people, sound the alarm, let them know. This is not business as usual. This is not life the way it always has been. We are not in a cycle and a pattern that's going to get better. This is the end. We're looking at it. It's on us. So what's all the noise about? Just that. The day of the Lord is soon. The day of the Lord is coming. It's close at hand. I understand that ultimately the great and terrible day of the Lord is the end of the tribulation. But Joel was saying the day of the Lord is close at hand. and the tribulation was at least 2,600 years from him. So he wasn't talking about the end of the tribulation when he said the day of the Lord is soon. He was talking about either the invasion of the Assyrians that destroyed the northern kingdom of Israel or the Babylonians that destroyed the southern kingdom of Judah. So the day of the Lord can be a type of a judgment when God just gets fed up and he says that's enough and his patience runs out. So that happened in 70 AD when I believe God behind the Romans sent them in to destroy Jerusalem and his people and scatter them all over the world. And I believe it may happen in America. And that may be simultaneous with the rapture or God may allow us to go through some judgment before the rapture. You know, somebody pointed out to me that when God sent the 10 plagues on Egypt and they were to force Pharaoh's hand to let God's people go and it was for the Egyptians, but the Israelites went through the first three. And they were what's been described as nuisance plagues, but they still made life uncomfortable, didn't they? And so, you know, we can think, well, the rapture is coming and we're going to get out of here. But God may allow us to go through some persecution or some judgment first. And one purpose possibly is to purify the church, you know, to get us ready to meet our bridegroom. But I think of prophecy. Prophecy. And we'll qualify this saying that this is just the way I see it. But if you look at the Blue Ridge Mountains, they look like they're one-dimensional. They look like sort of a blue scallop line. If you look at the Smokies over here, they're sort of a gray scallop line. And they just look like one dimension. But if you get up close, you'll find that each scallop is a separate mountain peak, and they're actually separated by miles. And so you can look at prophecy and the day of the Lord, and it looks one dimensional. So Joel's talking about the Assyrians or the Babylonians, but you get closer and you say, oh goodness, it could be, you know, the invasion of the Romans and the destruction in 70 AD. And you get close. Oh my goodness. It could be, you know, in the 21st century and it could come on America. It could come on the world. And then of course the ultimate fulfillment would be the great and terrible day of the Lord. So I just think there are patterns like that and dimensions of the day of the Lord that are broader than just one point in time. Because he says the day of the Lord is soon. So Genesis 6, God's spirit will not always strive with man. That God's spirit restrains evil so that life can go on. But there's a certain point that he says, I'm not going to do that anymore anymore. You keep telling me to get out and so I'm going to back off and I'm going to not restrain evil. And you can experience what I've been protecting you from. You lose my blessing. You lose my protection. And, you know, sometimes when I watch the evening news or I catch it online. or however you get your news, if you're like me, you see some things happening, and you say, God, when are you going to do something about this? And God answers, and he says, I am going to do something about this. And that's the day of the Lord. So, Joel says it's soon, and let me read some companion passages. Isaiah 13, The stars of heaven and their constellations will not show their light. The rising sun will be dark and the moon will not give its light. Ezekiel 30 verse 3. The day of the Lord is near. It's a day of clouds, a time of doom for the nations. Amos 5. Woe to you who long for the day of the Lord. Why do you long for the day of the Lord? That day will be darkness, not light. It will be as though a man fled from a lion only to meet a bear. Will not the day of the Lord be darkness, not light? Pitch dark without a ray of brightness. The day of the Lord is a day of God's reckoning with sinners who are in rebellion, blaspheming his name, profaning his name, their obscenities and their cruelty, and he just says, I've had enough. And there's a part of me, that was a good correction for me in Amos, there's a part of me that longs to see that judgment fall on the bad guys, you know? How can they get away with such cruelty? You look at ISIS. You look at those Christians that are marched out there on the beach in Libya, and you think, God, why don't you strike them all dead right now? I mean, if lightning had come out and hit all of those ISIS, wouldn't the world wake up and say, you know, maybe we're not going to be a part of ISIS, and maybe there's something going on here that, you know, and God allows it to be happened because he's patient. He doesn't want any to come under judgment. He wants all to come to repentance, but there's coming a time when his patience runs out. What disasters have been running around in your life? Has God been trying to get your attention about something? And you thought there were just trouble after trouble, health difficulty, financial difficulty, marriage difficulty, family difficulty, business difficulty, but could it be that God is moving? Listen to the hope for a moment, okay? The day of the Lord. Let's turn that around. It's the Lord's day. And this is the Lord who loves you, who created you to know him in a personal relationship, who died on the cross to take away your sin so you could come into that personal relationship, who even now is preparing a place for you to live with him forever in his heavenly home. It's the Lord's day. He is in charge. He's in control. And so when these things happen to you, like Romans 8, 28 says what? All things. In your life. All those harbingers. And those disasters. And those troubles. All things work together for your good. What's your good? It's not your happiness. And your prosperity. And your health. Your ultimate good is to be conformed to the image of Christ. And so he lets all things that come into your life, he works them out for his purpose when you're called according to his will. The important thing is that you get into his will. And then these things that happen in your life, they're not wasted. He's using them to make you like Jesus. It's the Lord's day. He's in charge. God is moving. So God is moving things. Soon, and he's moving surely, slowly maybe. Verse 2, I just took time to think about this. It's like the dawn spreading. Have you ever watched the dawn? I love the dawn. I sit up in my cabin, I watch the dawn come up over the mountains, and you know, there's just a little, it's dark, and then there's a little glimmer of light, and then it gets broader and broader, and it's just so silent and slow. Have you ever thought about it? God's judgment is slow, isn't it? I mean, when it falls, it's going to fall, but he does it progressively. It's not all at once. And I thought about it when I've been studying kings in my devotions, and when the Assyrians laid siege to Samaria, the capital of the northern kingdom, they laid siege for three years before Samaria fell. And I thought, God, why didn't you just let them take it? And was he... Holding it off for three years so that waiting for Samaria to repent. Waiting for Samaria to say, God, we're through with all these idols and these golden calves. And we turn to you. We remember the God of our fathers, Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. And we turn to you and repent of our sin. But they didn't. And then the southern kingdom. I put those years together. Did you know from the time the Babylonians came in until the time they just destroyed Jerusalem, so the whole city was destroyed. It was 22 years. God warning them and doing it slowly, giving them an opportunity to repent and turn to him. And Joel Rosenberg and I were talking. It was interesting that we had the same devotions this past week on Josiah, who was just about that time. And God raised up a Josiah, eight years old when he took the throne, who led his nation in revival. It didn't last long, but at least it postponed the judgment some. And I think, you know, so that's one way I'm praying is that God would raise up in America Josiah. Maybe bring us back to revival, just postponing the judgment. Maybe sparing America. from judgment before the rapture. That's sort of a selfish prayer, I guess, but we can pray that way, can't we? And I don't know if this is theologically correct. After the crucifixion, the resurrection, the ascension of Jesus, it was 40 years before the Romans destroyed Jerusalem and not one stone was left on top of another. And I know during that time the church was getting established and all of that, but could it also... Would it have been possible if the Pharisees and the Sadducees and the Sanhedrin had said, Oh! We have crucified the Lord of glory. Oh God, we're sorry. And if the whole nation had gotten on their face before God and repented of their sin, maybe God would have held off the Romans, you know? And then I know at the end of human history, it's so interesting. In the book of Revelation, God's judgment is meted out as seven seals and then seven trumpets and then seven bowls. And the whole presentation is that it's progressive. One at a time, at a time. And not until you get to the bowls do you have the feeling that it's one right after another. And there's no opportunity at that point to repent. God just pours out his wrath. But the first judgment that's open, the first seal, when it's opened in Revelation 8, verse 1, there is silence in heaven for about half an hour. Now, I don't know what that is, but was it a pause? God waiting to hear somebody on earth cry out to him? Say, God, we are so sorry. We can feel the judgment coming. We've seen the harbingers. We respond to you. We repent of our sin. Please, God, spare us, save us. We put our faith in you. We cling to you. But there's silence, and then judgment falls. But God is patient. He's very reluctant to judge. He moves slowly. And I think his judgment comes slowly because he doesn't want to do it. But it's unstoppable. The dawn, it comes like the dawn spreading. You can't stop the dawn, right? So I think we could delay it. We could postpone it. Maybe we could lessen it for America. But it's coming. There must be judgment for sin. That's the message of the cross. Have you mistaken his patience in your life? for toleration. I think our culture is doing that. I think God is so patient, so loving, so compassionate, so unwilling to bring judgment that he's delaying. And our culture thinks that he's either too old to act or he's indifferent to what's going on or there's really not any God up there anyway. And we've just all evolved, and we don't have to give an account to anybody. And so they are making a fatal mistake of thinking that God's indifferent, that he's neglecting, that he's blind, that he's deaf, that he's indifferent, or he's not there at all. God is there. He sees everything. And in my study of kings, again, it was interesting to He told the prophets to tell the nation, I'm going to bring such disaster that the ears of everyone who hears of it will tingle. And then he said, I'm going to destroy Israel and remove them from my presence. And then he said about Judah, he said, I'm going to wipe them clean like you would wipe a dish and turn it upside down. I want to get them out of my sight. And if God would say that to Israel and Judah, Why would he not say that to America? So don't mistake his patience for toleration. And you think, you know, I got by with my sin yesterday and I get by with my sin today. I'll get by with it tomorrow. And you're pushing God to the limits of his patience. Don't do it. You can choose the sin, but you can't choose your consequences. And before the consequences set in that are life-scarring, life-altering, repent. Turn around. Turn to God. His judgment is soon, it's sure, and it's severe. Let's look at it. This is the locust plague, but you understand the locust plague is a harbinger, okay? And so the harbinger is giving us a description of judgment that's coming, not necessarily the final great day of the Lord, but this is what I see on the horizon, coming like the dawn spreading. It's seeping in even now. I can feel it. When I read this, it sent chills down my spine because I see it. I feel it. This is what's coming. It's already in our world. All right, verse 2. It's dark. It's a day of darkness. And just think of what the light is. The light is truth and goodness and love and hope. Darkness is lies, deception, falsity. If truth is goodness, darkness is evil. And the whole world filled with darkness, hate, falsity, deception, hopelessness, despair. agitation, anger. It's dark. Verse 3, the judgment is detailed. Nothing escapes them. It affects every area of our lives at every level. Education, medicine, the economy, religion, business, family, marriage, relationships, race. Nothing is missed. Reminds me of a tank moving and just grinding everything in its path. Dreadful. In verse 6, at the sight of the nations are in anguish and every face turns pale. It's demonic. I look at Isis. I'm so tired of seeing pictures of these black garbed figures with their machine guns pointing in the air, their faces wrapped. And I know they're trying to intimidate and scare us, but they look like demons because I think they are demonic. And can you imagine if that's creeping into the whole world? We can see Isis. But I think the demons are flooding our earth right now. And the interesting thing, God allows that. God uses demons. God uses the devil. You know, so don't forget God's in charge. And this day of judgment is dark, it's detailed, it's dreadful. Verse 7 and 8 is determined. Where it says they charge like warriors, they scale walls like soldiers, they all march in line not swerving from their course. And it's systematic, it's organized, they're well financed. They have a great military. They have all the political machine. They overcome all obstacles. And you feel it. I just think in back of some of the stuff going on in our world today, there's got to be something in back of it. And I thought, who's calling the shots? Who's coordinating all this? And maybe there is some little group, a little committee somewhere that's up there. But in back of that is the devil. And in back of him is God.
SPEAKER 01 :
God's patience shouldn't be mistaken for indifference. While God's judgment may seem slow, it's also unstoppable. And it's crucial that we respond to his warnings and mercy while there's still time. A sobering reminder from Anne Graham Lotz today here on Family Talk. And by the way, if you missed any part of this presentation, go to drjamesdobson.org forward slash family talk to listen again. Well, the clock is ticking here at Family Talk, and time is running out to take advantage of an extraordinary opportunity. From now through midnight tonight, the end of 2024, every dollar you donate to Family Talk will be doubled in impact, thanks to our December matching grant. That means your generosity will have twice the impact in bringing biblical truth to families all over the country. Your $50 donation becomes $100. Your $500 donation becomes $1,000. And keep in mind that if you have not requested your copy yet, you can receive our very popular offering, the 2024 Best of Broadcast Collection, a carefully curated set that features the year's most impactful Family Talk conversations, available as a six-CD set or a digital download. So we will send you that collection as our way of thanking you for your gift of any amount in support of Family Talk today. and please know that gift will be doubled today only. Go to drjamesdobson.org and make your donation securely online, or call us at 877-732-6825. And if you'd like to mail your request, get it to the post office today, addressed to the Dr. James Dobson Family Institute, P.O. Box 39000, Colorado Springs, Colorado, the zip code 80949. Well, I'm Roger Marsh, and on behalf of Dr. Dobson, his wife Shirley, and all of us here at the JDFI, we wish you a happy and safe new year. May God's blessings overflow in your life and draw you closer to him in the year ahead. And be sure to join us again tomorrow. You won't want to miss part two of our special message from Anne Graham Lotz about the last days. That's coming up next time right here on Dr. James Dobson's Family Talk. This has been a presentation of the Dr. James Dobson Family Institute.
In this enlightening episode of Family Talk, Dr. James Dobson welcomes Pastor Jack Hibbs, renowned leader and founding pastor of Calvary Chapel Chino Hills. As the year draws to a close, Pastor Hibbs reflects on the transformative power of faith within the family unit, drawing parallels between personal experience and biblical wisdom. From the early days of homeschooling to navigating the challenges of a modern church, discover how faith and family have been interwoven in strengthening communities and spreading the Gospel.
SPEAKER 01 :
Welcome everyone to Family Talk. It's a ministry of the James Dobson Family Institute supported by listeners just like you. I'm Dr. James Dobson and I'm thrilled that you've joined us.
SPEAKER 02 :
Well, welcome to Dr. James Dobson's Family Talk. I'm Roger Marsh, and as we approach the final days of the year, it's a perfect time to reflect on God's faithfulness. Whether you're catching up with family, enjoying some quiet days between Christmas and New Year's, or making plans for an action-packed 2025, we are delighted that you're with us today. You know, this season invites us to pause and truly appreciate the blessings God has given us. And in that spirit, we have an inspiring message to share with you from Pastor Jack Hibbs on the purpose of the church today and tomorrow. But before we get started, I want to remind you about an incredible opportunity to double your impact of giving this month. Thanks to some generous friends of the ministry here at Family Talk, we have a special December matching grant in effect today and tomorrow. Every gift you make on or before December 31st will be doubled. A $100 gift becomes $200, $500 becomes $1,000. You get the idea. With just days remaining until the deadline, your support will help us start 2025 strong and reach even more families with hope and encouragement. To have your gift doubled, you can make a secure donation online at drjamesdobson.org. Now let me introduce today's special guest here on Family Talk. He is Pastor Jack Hibbs. Jack is the founding pastor of Calvary Chapel Chino Hills in Southern California. What started as a small home fellowship with only six people has now grown into a congregation of over 10,000. Pastor Hibbs reaches millions more through his real-life television and radio ministry and the real-life network. And he and his wife Lisa have shared over 40 years of marriage together. Pastor Hips recently spoke at an event here in Colorado Springs, and we're excited to bring that message to you right now. Let's listen in.
SPEAKER 01 :
Well, it's an honor to be here this morning, and I almost feel like the little kid, your little kid, maybe it was you one day when you went up or you saw your parents and you said, after trying to ride your bike, remember? Look, no hands. Look, mom, no hands. Well, I'm saying this morning, Dr. Dobson, surely no hands, meaning I have no notes this morning. I tried. I tried. I usually always speak with notes, and I tried. It's not working for this morning. How can I put on paper what Lisa and I And so many of us have experienced over the course of our life when we were homeschooling our children, really Lisa was, in the early 1980s, your ministry kept us not only encouraged but informed. Lisa would often call your ministry to find out how to deal with this about our child, this about our daughter. And you guys constantly were there for us. And homeschooling in California in the early 80s, and Lisa's family coming from just a long line of intellects, we had to keep that under wraps. We thought that the SS officers were going to be at our door because we were homeschooling. And our daughters were homeschooled, and now our daughters homeschool our grandkids. And all along the way, starting with our oldest, Rebecca, when we began to see certain things, we quickly got the strong-willed child. And then our second daughter was born, and then we had to get bringing up girls. And then our daughters had grandsons and they wound up bringing up boys. And the Dobson ministry has been the meat and potatoes of our family life. Now, God has been very good to us as a church. He has catapulted this ministry over the last 33 years and it's been amazing. But listen, the greatest strength, that we can experience in the church today is having a strong family life among the pastors and those who serve the body of Christ. We all know that Satan is out to take out the church, just take out the pastor's wife, take out a board member or two, or take out the pastor. Without a strong family, the church goes down. Isn't it amazing that when Paul tells Timothy about those that are qualified to be leading the church, he stresses that it's the family. And this ministry has been such a bedrock for us. And we were having lunch yesterday, and I happened to share to the group that everything that's going on... And look, I'm the outsider. Lisa and I were invited here. We've never been here before, so I just kind of felt like I'm going to say something... and then never be invited back. And I said, look, I don't know exactly how all you guys play out at this table, but as an end user, I want all of you to hear something. See, you got to take Dr. Dobson's voice. You've got to protect it. You've got to package it. You've got to put a bow on it. You got to put a rocket engine on it. You got to get it back out there like never before. This ministry that he has laid down for us, that he and Shirley have given us, is so effective that we don't need to reinvent something else. You say, Jack, how do you know? Because I'm a pastor. I'm watching families come to our church, especially now. I don't mean to bum you out if you think I... I'm out of touch or something. I'm not out of touch. I'm watching what's happening in California and families are coming to church because they can't take it anymore. They can't take the home breaking up. They're going on their third or fourth marriage. They're not going to go on a fifth marriage. They've had enough. They want to know it's true. They want to know it's right. And they want to be able to lead their families and do the right thing. And in our bookstore, our constant, constant, direct is this. You go down the courtyard, you go to the left, and you get these books by Dr. James Dobson. That voice continues on. For all of you that are here, I'm the man on the outside speaking to you. Do whatever you've got to do to keep his voice going. Do what you must do. You've got to do this. Isn't it amazing how God in his greatness always places his people In the world at such stressful times, that's why you're a believer right now. Oh, there's so much wrong. That's a really great thing. Honestly, think about it. Well, there's wars, families falling apart. Listen, the good thing is this. We're here. You're here. Until the Lord calls us up, you and I are to be so active about what God has given you and I to use. You and I must take that mantle of understanding that your ministry influence, your financial influence, your persuasion, the people that you are able to touch, God has ordained you to do that. To bring you to a place where you can minister to people in such a way that gets them into the kingdom of God, ultimately. That's the ultimate thing. But how many kids today we're seeing At our church, thank God, there's thousands of young adults who are saying, what do I do to raise my family the way that my parents didn't raise me? They're asking. But the young generation, there's huge hope. I don't know if you have any young people in your life, but if you don't, you need to go out and find one. Adopt one. They are actually waking up. I'm excited. I got saved in the 70s during the Jesus revolution at Calvary Chapel Costa Mesa. And notice that when that time came, it came at a time in the 60s with all of the drug abuse, all of the free sex, all of the craziness. And people got so fed up with it all, they started searching for Jesus. Friends, we've gone through all of those decades of basically churchianity. And now we've come to this place where it's starting to happen again. The kids have had enough of social media. They're sick and tired of what's happening, but they don't know how to be parents. They don't know how to be married. And this is where you all come in so powerfully. No one is doing what Dr. Dobson has already done. The greatest thing that we can do is just continue to give him platform, give him voice. So check this out. So coming from the People's Republic of California, during COVID, first, I should back up. Even before COVID. We started, we've always been an outspoken church. God took the fact that I was born in a Marine Corps home in San Diego. I got saved in the 70s. And he put that together. And I've never had a problem ever understanding the truth of the gospel, the entirety of scripture, and having a worldview that functions in your day-to-day politic of life. To me, it's absolutely normal. I don't understand pastors that say, no, no, no, no, that's that, and this is for us, and we preach the gospel. And so we've always gotten criticized. Oh, I don't get involved in what you guys do. We just preach the gospel. I always find that slightly offensive at the beginning. Listen, one thing about growing up in a Marine Corps home, by the time you, you've heard it all, you know, by the time you're eight years old. And so pastors would say, well, you know, you guys at Chino Hills, you're political. And we don't do that. We just preach the gospel. And I used to take that. I used to just say, oh. But you know what? I bumped into a few guys along the way. David Barton. Bumped into Bob McEwen. And all along the way, we've always had an impact on the culture. But I didn't have any backing. I didn't have anybody... standing there to help us, but we knew what we were supposed to do. And we didn't test the wind to see what was trending with opinion. I think that's a weakness, by the way. And so we started out just making sure that at Christmas time in our little community, our town's small, that, are you going to say, or this, Target, Kohl's, These stores, Costco, are you going to say happy holidays or Merry Christmas at Christmas time? We want to know. And we took a survey. This is how our political action committee started. We started taking surveys about how the community was going to deal with Christmas. Well, long story short, we wound up promoting to the congregation, don't shop at that store. Target is not going to say Merry Christmas. They're going to say Happy Holidays. Shop at this other store instead. Listen, friends, we just told that to our congregation. It so affected the local community that next year around, Target reached out to us and said, we're going to be saying Merry Christmas at Christmastime. This is not a joke. We discovered that Christians got a voice when they stand up and say it. We know what to say. We just need to say it. And we need pastors in their pulpits to let the people have the permission. I've got your back as a pastor. This is how you engage the culture. Watch this, everybody. I'm not teaching you. I'm just reminding you. Jesus said, let your light so shine before men that when they see your good works, they'll glorify your father wishes in heaven. Strange, awesome statement. When Jesus said, let your light shine before men, it's generic. It means unbelieving mankind. You don't let your light shine at church on Sunday. Everybody's lights shine on Sunday. It means shine the light in the dark place. Go where it's dark. When you go back home to the churches you attend, this is my opinion. If it doesn't go good, blame it on me. You should demand from the ministry that you attend and tithe to, what are you doing to affect the culture for righteousness? I must know. Because listen, I'm going to give you a verse right now and it's actually in the New Testament. It's 2 Corinthians 10, 6. What does it say? It says, by your obedience to Christ, punish all disobedience. By doing so, your obedience will be established. When's the last time you heard a sermon on that? Well, what does that mean? When the church speaks up, things begin to happen. You see, it's not on us. It's not on our strength. It's on his strength. We are actually just to regurgitate the word of God and God takes it from there. We get to be the vessels he uses. And as he uses us, things happen. Sonia Shah, she came during COVID. She got saved. She gave her heart to Christ at our church. She found out during COVID what the school was teaching online, this pornography education workshop. BLM craziness. And she ran for school board, but because she goes to her church, the church voted for her and she won overwhelmingly. Well, other members won as well. So we wound up saying, this will not be taught in our school district. And it caused Gavin Newsom to get all upset and And he sent his henchmen down there to try to disrupt our gathering. And the guy was out of order. And so Sonia just said, no, we're going to abide by the rules. And the county sheriff's department had to actually remove the state official from the office. And that wound up making national news. And it's going to be going to court because Gavin Newsom just filed a lawsuit against us, against TURN, against the school board. But you know what? That's okay. We just wound up about seven, eight years ago, Governor Jerry Brown. I don't know if you know this or not. Do you remember the Hobby Lobby case? Well, you know, that was awesome because it was that a 501c3 cannot fund elective abortions based upon their religious convictions. You can't force them to do that. You know what we did? We got a letter from the governor's office of the state of California. The governor, Jerry Brown, and the state attorney general has reviewed the outcome of the case in Washington, D.C. Listen. And we have concluded that the decision of the U.S. Supreme Court is unconstitutional. No, no, no. It's true. Listen. We took that letter. We got a hold of ADF. I think it was Jeremiah Gallus was the attorney that was assigned to our case. Fought it for seven years. And I'm happy to report to you that we won against the state of California. No 501c3 in the state of California has to give money in their insurance policy to fund elective abortions because of ADF and their desire to fight, their heart to fight. We've got four lawsuits right now with the state of California from co-ed showers to the education system. It's absolutely crazy. You say, Jack, why do you still live in California? Because that's where the fight is. You guys all remember that in California, they wound up passing this thing called ballot harvesting? And look... the Republican Party didn't handle it well. The Republican Party freaked out and said, that's bad, that's bad, we'll never do that, we'll never do that. You gotta understand something, I'm from a state that legalized it, which means enshrined the Democrats and their agenda in California will then win forevermore. So when Gina Gleason walked into my office, she heads up our real impact team, she said, this is the new law, this is the new law, what are we gonna do about this? And I said, wait, read it to me? Well, it's ballot harvesting. You can go and you can get ballots from people and you can turn them into the county registrar's office or these boxes. And I said, that's the law? Yeah, that's the law now. And I said, find out, let's do it. If that's the law, let's do it. In fact, let's do this. Let's make sure the church is the epicenter. Get a thousand churches that's on our network online. Let's get these guys. Let's have a Skype meeting. Let's teach them how to do this. So let's get our homework. You rent boxes from Amazon. They're recognized by the state of California. They're locked. We had them on campus. We wound up having, first of all, 18,000 people registered to vote. Most of them in Southern California, they were changing their party affiliation. We brought candidates up on the stage because Alan Sears, we've been trying to provoke a lawsuit with the IRS for decades now. No, haven't we? We have. I would preach a politically incorrect sermon with a black robe on. And I don't usually wear a black robe. And so we're trying to get some action. We're trying to get somebody to sue us. They've never even attempted. We'd mail our sermons to the IRS. They never once came after us. We bring up candidates. We say, vote for this person. Listen, we've been so successful that we've got letters of hatred from Nancy Pelosi. Oh, we keep them. They're beautiful. Dianne Feinstein. Dianne Feinstein. Barbara Boxer. Remember her? She's long gone. Nancy Pelosi. It's an honor. When your church is known in the halls of Sacramento as being a troublemaker, for what? For giving parents their voice? Because the family needs to be protected? That our kids should not be taught pornography, but math and geometry? To take a stand that we think it's wrong that kids, that teenage kids should shower in the same shower with the opposite sex? Call us crazy. We think it's wrong. Listen, who's going to speak up but the church? But the pastors have got to be the ones to speak up. So here's what's going on. In these last elections with these ballot harvesting, which we changed the name. We call it ballot collection because ballot harvesting, that sounds like they're trying to take like an organ out of you or something. Liver, kidney, sounds kind of nasty. So we call it ballot collection. We wound up educating so many churches in California. And our first big attempt was Mike Garcia ran for office in California's 25th district because the Democrat congresswoman had an affair with a high school student. And so there was a special election. So we went up there. We mobilized the churches in the area. We had the boxes deployed. And we had cameras set up. And we had people standing there monitoring the boxes. People started bringing in the votes. Mike Garcia campaigned. But people had a place to bring their vote. They came and they brought their ballot. They watched it go into the box. We collected those and took them on camera with armed guards to the County Board of Registrar's Office in Los Angeles. Guess what happened? That was a special election. Two years later, we come to a cycle of elections And we wind up doing the same thing in various districts up and down the state. And we win more congressional seats. We won more mayoral seats and this started growing. Pastors started signing up this money. Remind you, this is the state of California. And I'm telling you right now that follow the math. In the last election, when the Republicans took the house, Remember, it wasn't settled for a little while. There was some counting going on. And what transpired was this, was that California sent more conservative candidates to Washington DC that caused Nancy Pelosi to lose her job. Watch, God had a plan. McCarthy was put in place for just a season. for a season for a reason, because God had Mike Johnson in the wings. He's a real man of God. California, keep your eye on it. If you sold property there, you should have hung on to it. Things are turning around. People are going to churches. Every church I know that stood during and ministered during COVID has exploded. Friends and family, listen. Without the foundation given to Lisa and I, by Dr. James Dobson and Shirley. We wouldn't have known how to raise our kids Our kids are patriots. They love Jesus. Our grandkids are patriots. They love Jesus. Our church loves the Lord. We're building a culture of biblical masculinity. It's incredible what's happening. 2,000 men on a Sunday evening come out to learn how to be a man of God. The women's ministry is exploding, teaching moms how to be moms and how elderly women can nurse up or raise up the young women who don't even know what to do with the baby. It's happening, friends. And listen, I wouldn't change this moment in time for anything in the world. God is doing a great thing. All he wants us to do is stand. And I encourage you, if you would go back home and challenge your pastor, you got to stand. Pastor, you got to stand. If your pastor won't stand, there's a verse in the Bible. Jesus says, dust off your feet and go to a place that is affecting the culture. I'm out of time. Dr. Dobson. Surely we love you guys. Your voice must continue more than ever before. I pray, we pray that there'll be those that have come behind you and pick up your ministry and catapult it into the future generations because we need you. God bless you so much.
SPEAKER 02 :
Well, when we come together as Christians, there is no limit to what God can accomplish through us for his kingdom. Friend, you're listening to a special presentation from Pastor Jack Hibbs here on Family Talk. And if you'd like to share this message with a friend or loved one, you can do so using the Family Talk app or by going to drjamesdobson.org forward slash Family Talk. Well, as the season of giving draws to a close, I want to remind you there's still time to double your impact through our December matching grant. For just a little while longer, December ends tomorrow, every dollar you donate to Family Talk will be matched and therefore doubled, making twice the difference for families all across America and literally all over the world. But this opportunity ends in less than 42 hours. So make your tax-deductible donation right now when you go to drjamesdobson.org. or when you call 877-732-6825. And if you found today's message to be impactful, you will definitely want to have a copy of our 2024 Best of Broadcast collection, because it's a part of that collection. This carefully curated six CD set contains the very best broadcast from this past year here on Family Talk. Featuring trusted voices sharing biblical wisdom for you and your family. From tackling cultural issues to strengthening marriages to parenting with purpose. These timeless conversations will encourage and equip you in the years ahead. Now we'll send you the complete collection either as a digital download or a six CD set. As our way of thanking you for your gift of any amount in support of the Dr. James Dobson Family Institute. So you can request the 2024 Best of Broadcast Collection online. When you go to drjamesdobson.org or by calling us at 877-732-6825. And keep in mind, our special matching grant is in place today and tomorrow. So your donation and your request to receive the best of broadcast CD will be doubled, double the impact and receive the special six CD set. Again, go to drjamesdobson.org and make your best donation there in our secure website or call us at 877-732-6825. And if you can get it in the mail today, get it postmarked by tomorrow, you can send your request through the U.S. mail when you write to Dr. James Dobson's Family Talk, P.O. Box 39000, Colorado Springs, Colorado, the zip code 80949. Again, that's P.O. Box 39000, Colorado Springs, Colorado, the zip code 80949. Your support keeps Family Talk's message reaching families all across the nation on the radio and online. So give us a call, drop us a line, or go to drjamesdobson.org today. I'm Roger Marsh. Thanks so much for making Family Talk a part of your day. Hope to see you again same time tomorrow for the next edition of Dr. James Dobson's Family Talk. This has been a presentation of the Dr. James Dobson Family Institute.
Join Dr. James Dobson and Sally Burke for an enlightening conversation about the power of prayer in shaping the lives of our children and communities. As president of Moms in Prayer International, Sally reveals insights from her book 'Unshaken' and shares heartwarming stories of answered prayers. This episode highlights the ministry's mission to have two moms praying for every school in order to create a ripple effect of faith and positive change. Tune in to learn how you can become part of this impactful movement, support your children through prayer, and connect with a community that uplifts and encourages.
SPEAKER 02 :
You're listening to Family Talk, the radio broadcasting division of the James Dobson Family Institute. I am that James Dobson, and I'm so pleased that you've joined us today.
SPEAKER 01 :
Well, welcome to Family Talk. I'm Roger Marsh. In just a moment, we're going to hear a powerful presentation about what it means to have unshaken faith in uncertain times. First, though, a special reminder, today is Friday, December 27th. That means there are only four days left in 2024. That means you only have four more opportunities to take advantage of our special year-end matching gift and to reserve your copy of of the 2024 Best of Broadcast Collection from the Dr. James Dobson Family Institute. Now, this six-CD set is also available as a digital download, and we'll be happy to send it to you as our way of thanking you for your gift of any amount in support of the Dr. James Dobson Family Institute. However, there are just four days left in our special dollar-for-dollar matching gift, which means your $100 donation becomes $200, your $500 donation becomes $1,000. You get the idea. So to reserve your copy of the six CD set, the 2024 Best of Broadcast Collection, and have your gift doubled now before the end of the year, go to drjamesdobson.org or call our customer care team at 877-732-6825. In Psalm 16, we read these words, I keep my eyes always on the Lord. With him at my right hand, I will not be shaken. Those words are especially meaningful for today. We're seeing families under pressure from all sides, broken marriages, addiction, abuse, and these challenges don't just affect parents. They are rippling through generations, touching our children's lives as well. Well, on today's broadcast here at Family Talk, we're digging back into the archives to bring you a conversation that's more relevant now than ever before. As Dr. Dobson sits down with Sally Burke, the president of Moms in Prayer International. Her book is called Unshaken, and she shares her surprising path to ministry, along with incredible stories of answered prayers from mothers all across the country. So let's join Dr. Dobson and his guest, Sally Burke, right now on today's edition of Family Talk.
SPEAKER 02 :
Well, hello, everyone. You're listening to Family Talk. I'm Dr. James Dobson. And I want to take those of you who have been listening to me and our programs for at least 15 or 20 years will remember, I hope, a series of programs that we did with a woman named Fern Nichols. She was the founder and president of an organization called Moms in Touch. Then it went on to become Moms in Prayer. And Fern taught tens of thousands of women to meet regularly to pray for their children and for their schools. And it caught on. I had the privilege of playing a role, I think, in helping to publicize the early efforts of this organization and to draw a lot of women to the ministry and to that work, and it grew like Topsy. Fern has become a great friend of this ministry, and I Like I say, I did everything I could to help. Now, I have the privilege of introducing her successor to this ministry. It's still going strong. It's an international ministry. We're going to hear about that. And I want our guests to catch us up, if you will, on Fern's activities and what's happening now. in the ministry now. And with us is Sally Burke, who is the successor to Fern. Sally, welcome to the ministry.
SPEAKER 03 :
Thank you, Dr. Dotson. It's a great joy to be with you. And Fern sends her love to you and says hi. She's doing wonderful. In fact, she still speaks for our ministry. She comes in on Thursday.
SPEAKER 02 :
She's a great speaker. She really is.
SPEAKER 03 :
And the vision and mission continues on. What she has passed on, we continue toward two more moms for every school so every child around the world can be prayed for.
SPEAKER 02 :
Well, describe for us where the ministry is now and what's going on. It is international. How many countries is it in?
SPEAKER 03 :
146 countries. Really? Yeah.
SPEAKER 02 :
Is that right? Going back to the late 80s, early 90s, I would not have believed it would have grown that fast and that far. It's obvious that there are millions of women out there who really believe in prayer and know that the only protection for their kids in the kind of world we live in is to be on our knees before the Lord on their behalf. That's what you're trying to do, isn't it?
SPEAKER 03 :
That's right. God has a great plan for this next generation. It's not by surprise that our kids are here in this generation for such a time as this. And they're doing a tremendous battle. We must pray for them. We must continue to battle for the lives of the kids. A tremendous battle when we think about it for the souls of the children.
SPEAKER 02 :
Are the parents anxiety-ridden over what's happening in the schools with the shootings, the violence, and other things that are taking place there?
SPEAKER 03 :
Yes, even Christians can be shaken, but yet when they go to the Lord in prayer, they can stand unshaken as they unload His power through prayer.
SPEAKER 02 :
As a matter of fact, you've written a book by that name, and I want you to explain it. It is titled, Unshaken, Experience the Power and Peace of a Life of Prayer. Tell me what the word unshaken means in this context.
SPEAKER 03 :
Oh, my goodness. You know, as I was witnessing even Christians being shaken in this world, as they are seeing what's going on, I had to share with them what I get to see. You see, I get a bird's eye view of what God's doing all over the world as people take our four simple but powerful steps of prayer. Women in the most hopeless situations empowered through prayer. And they're impacting their children who are impacting others for Christ.
SPEAKER 02 :
Why not describe it? They come together off school grounds usually, right?
SPEAKER 03 :
Yes, yes. Unless it's a private school, then they're on the campuses. They meet just one hour once a week. That's all the Lord needs. They come together one hour once a week and they pray. They just don't talk about prayer, but they actually pray. They begin with praise.
SPEAKER 02 :
This is not a coffee club. You don't come together to gossip a little bit and have a good time seeing with your friends. You go there on your knees and pray.
SPEAKER 03 :
Yeah, God tells us to enter his throne room boldly and confidently to find mercy and help in our time of need. So we're entering to his throne room. We're in a tremendous battle and victory is found on our knees. The weakest saint praying defeats the enemy every time.
SPEAKER 02 :
I want to know a little bit about your background. You were with NASA. You are sort of a statistician or an analyst, a data analyst.
SPEAKER 03 :
Is that what you do? My degree is out of the School of Business and Quantitative Analysis, Computers and Calculus. Where? University of Florida. That was fun. Go Gators. Yeah. What they did was they came and brought me and made me an engineer on the space shuttle. So I became an engineer. Math, you can be anything. And so what we did before the shuttle took off, we tested everything. So I worked with the computers on board. I worked with the computers that tested. I made sure everything was ready for launch day.
SPEAKER 02 :
You're kind of a rare bird, aren't you, for a woman to do that?
SPEAKER 03 :
Did you see Hidden Figures?
SPEAKER 02 :
I think I did.
SPEAKER 03 :
Those were my predecessors. These women were mathematicians.
SPEAKER 02 :
Yes, I did see that. That's a good movie.
SPEAKER 03 :
That's a good movie. And those computers that they were just about to work on, I got to work on those.
SPEAKER 02 :
Really?
SPEAKER 03 :
Yeah. Yeah. So it was fantastic. It was an incredible time, I think, in American history.
SPEAKER 02 :
Men were very skeptical that women could do that job, especially minority women. And they really gave them a hard time, and then they proved themselves. It really is an uplifting movie.
SPEAKER 03 :
Yes, yes, yes. There were only five of us women engineers at that plant at that time, and it was exciting.
SPEAKER 02 :
Did you take that kind of pressure? Oh, yeah, you always do. You had to prove yourself. Did you find men look down on you?
SPEAKER 03 :
Yeah. Oh, yes. Yes. You had to learn not to take it personal. If you went to a meeting and everybody's yelling at you, you just didn't take it personal. You just went back and proved them wrong.
SPEAKER 02 :
And you did.
SPEAKER 03 :
Yes.
SPEAKER 02 :
How long were you there?
SPEAKER 03 :
I was there five years until I had my first child. After about a year later, I came home. I decided that anybody could work on the space shuttle, but not anybody could raise my child.
SPEAKER 02 :
So how does a data analyst for NASA find herself in a prayer movement? How long were you with Fern in that responsibility?
SPEAKER 03 :
I have been since 1990 in Moms in Prayer. And the very first meeting I ever went to, I knew that God blesses our children through prayer. That's the avenue God has chosen to bless us. We have not because we ask not. And so I heard about this prayer group, and I went to it. Well, little did I know you had to pray out loud. I did not know how to pray. You had never done that? No. I asked God, teach me to pray. And how does God answer that prayer? He has me go to a moms in prayer group. And that group was so good to me. They were praying out loud, and I just sat there silently. I was in the very presence of God. As they praise God, God enters the presence of his people.
SPEAKER 02 :
I tell you, Fern knows how to pray, doesn't she?
SPEAKER 03 :
Yes. Yes, but everybody there, short, simple prayers. So you don't, if you never prayed before, come to Moms in Prayer and you're going to learn how to pray. It's going to forever change and touch your life forever. And then your children's lives. And then each one on that school campus, life will be changed as you pray.
SPEAKER 02 :
Have you seen miracles?
SPEAKER 03 :
Yeah. In fact, the first miracle I ever saw was my first grade teacher for my son. I dropped him off and she says, oh, you're in that mom's in touch at that time. Mom's in prayer group. Will you pray? There's a little boy who's very sick. They don't think he's going to make it through the weekend. And I said, yes, we'll pray. So I went back to our group, and we prayed for this little boy. On Monday morning, I went rushing to her. I said, tell me. Tell me, how is he? And she says, well, he's healed. And I'm like, wow, how did that happen? And she goes, you prayed. And so that was my very first miracle. But I saw miracle after miracle. Pretty soon we saw our kids so favored on that campus, our moms and prayer kids. They're all lined up getting awards. And my heart was burdened for every other child sitting there. And I said, oh, Lord, may each one of these kids hear the good news. May they hear it. And so what does God bring on our elementary school campus but a good news club, children evangelism? Over 100 kids would come each month, and they would receive Jesus as their Lord and Savior. Today, they're pastors, they're teachers, they're lawyers. They are now impacting this generation. And then 14 of our 22 teachers we prayed for on this elementary school have come to know Jesus Christ. Yes, it's just amazing.
SPEAKER 02 :
Give us your journey, your spiritual journey. When did you become a Christian?
SPEAKER 03 :
You know what? I don't even know the year. My husband came home one day from work. I was a stay-at-home mom, and we were greeting him in the door. I had a baby on this hip and one holding onto my leg. And he says, Sally, I was listening to John MacArthur on the radio, and I had to pull over. I just received Jesus Christ as my Lord and my Savior.
SPEAKER 02 :
Had you been praying together?
SPEAKER 03 :
Nothing.
SPEAKER 02 :
There was anything going on in your family that would have led to this?
SPEAKER 03 :
Somebody was praying for us. That I do know. I don't know who it was. When I get to heaven, I'll know. But it was obvious somebody was praying for us. And when my husband said that, I said, whoa. I'm thinking in my mind, my husband's working too hard. Something's wrong. But for the next few months, he walked in this peace and this strength. He can say no to the things of the world, and you just witness it. So that Christmas, I was used to getting diamonds or different things. Well, he bought me a Bible. And I thought, okay. And he was telling me how he prayed over what Bible to get me.
SPEAKER 02 :
You were not thrilled over the gift.
SPEAKER 03 :
No, I was surprised to say the least over that gift. And I remember opening it up and I remember reading at the beginning of it. And, you know, this person would be got this person. I thought, well, you know, I'll go to Psalms. And I thought, whoever wrote this book is brilliant. He's making the most incredible truth so simple. And just like a great calculus teacher. It was amazing. And then my husband goes, why don't you read the book of John? And there I saw that Jesus was God. And there I surrendered my life to him. And then I began to listen to the radio.
SPEAKER 02 :
And you don't remember what year that was.
SPEAKER 03 :
I don't remember what year that was.
SPEAKER 02 :
Sally, I remember I found the Lord in 1940. You don't remember yours?
SPEAKER 03 :
Because nobody explained it to me. Nobody said, oh, you're a Christian now. And nobody explained that to me. All I did was I began to read the Bible every day. I began to, you know, it took us about a year to go to church. Some pastor came knocking on our door. And, you know, he comes, he goes, I'd like to invite you to my church. I said, well, come in. Tell me about your church. Do you believe in the Bible? And then we started going to church. It was God's journey for me.
SPEAKER 02 :
Has he remained faithful to the Lord?
SPEAKER 03 :
Oh, my husband?
SPEAKER 02 :
Yes.
SPEAKER 03 :
Yes. Yes, he has. Yeah.
SPEAKER 02 :
And the two of you have been married how long?
SPEAKER 03 :
We have been married 34 years now. Wow.
SPEAKER 02 :
How did you get from the work you were doing at NASA to this responsibility? First, you joined Fern in Moms in Touch. I will always call it that, even though it's Moms in Prayer. And now you have taken over that responsibility. How did the Lord let you know that this is what he wanted you to do?
SPEAKER 03 :
God just kept surprising me, and I kept witnessing him answer prayer wherever we were at. God kept raising up leadership and kept impacting the schools and the children for Christ. And pretty soon Fern called me to headquarters, and she said, I would like you to work with the women around the world. Now, I only speak one language, and I don't speak that very well at all. And I said, Fern, I'll have to pray about it. And God taught me so much as I began to work with our international women around the world to see their faith, to see these courageous women. I mean, some of them live on garbage dumps. Some of them live in mud huts. Yet when you give them the gift of prayer— Oh, yes. We're all throughout South America, Africa, throughout Europe. We're on about every continent there is. So we only have a few more countries to go and we'll be in every country. But, yes, one of the first women I worked with, she came from Rwanda. When she was a young mom there in Rwanda, she lost her two kids during the time of genocide there in Rwanda. She comes here to the United States. She has two more kids, learns about moms in prayer. She takes it back to Rwanda. And she begins to teach these women how to pray, not fight between the tribes, but how to come together and pray. Within a few years after she did that, we had a key leader there who said, Sally, we will no longer be known as a nation of genocide. We will be known as a nation of prayer. I mean, they began to just really open my eyes to what God can do when we pray, when we unleash his power to do his will through prayer. He can do great and mighty things.
SPEAKER 02 :
Do people find the Lord through that ministry?
SPEAKER 03 :
Many, many, many people.
SPEAKER 02 :
So they come not really knowing, like you, didn't know how to pray.
SPEAKER 03 :
Well, I didn't know how to pray, but we have a statement of faith. So they do know the Lord. They accept, you know, is Jesus and God one? Yes. Is the Bible the inherent word of God? Yes. Yes. So they must agree to that. And some of them truly find out who God is. In moms in prayer, you get to know them by name, by attribute, by character. These women become transformed. You know, it's like those who know the name of the Lord will be strong and do great exploits. As they get to know who God is according to his word, all of a sudden they become, you know, just courageous women. They witness God answering prayer for them.
SPEAKER 02 :
Well, let's talk to the woman who has children at home. She is not real sure who she is. She doesn't sense a mission or a responsibility. She's heard about Christ but didn't really know who he is or what he taught or what he came to do. And maybe they also might be lonely.
SPEAKER 03 :
Yes.
SPEAKER 02 :
All right. What do you say to that woman about looking up a Moms in Prayer group and becoming involved in the fantastic mission of this ministry.
SPEAKER 03 :
There's a wonderful sisterhood just waiting for you. You'll never feel alone. You know, you just think about the story of Moses. The children of Israel are out there on the battlefield, battling. Well, our children are battling. And Moses, as long as his arms were up, interceding for the children of Israel— They were winning. Well, his arms got tired. So Aaron and Ur came beside him and lifted up his arms. And the children of Israel were victorious. Well, every week when you come to Moms in Prayer group, there Aaron and Ur come alongside of you. They fall in love with your kids. They pray for your kids. They battle for your kids. I've been with the same group of women for over 20 years. And we continue to pray for those kids. We're never going to give up hope. We know God has a great plan for them. You will grow in confidence. Your kids will be blessed. You won't feel lonely anymore. You'll know who God is and you'll know who you are in Christ. You'll know and understand the plans that God has for you and for your children are for good.
SPEAKER 02 :
When you gather together, do you pray for a specific school or specific children?
SPEAKER 03 :
Yes.
SPEAKER 02 :
Explain what one of those sessions is like.
SPEAKER 03 :
Okay. Well, as soon as you come in, that leader is going to start on time. She's going to say, welcome to my group. Here's a prayer sheet. And then you're going to look at a name of God. You'll look up maybe three scriptures. Let's say God is all-present. And you'll look up the scriptures that go with that or that he's sovereign and nothing's too hard, nothing's impossible. And then you'll take a few minutes to praise. And then you'll go to a time of silent confession. You don't want anything to hold back your prayers. And then you have what I call a Holy Spirit party. You have a time of thanksgiving where you hear prayer after prayer after prayer being answered. And then you intercede on behalf of one of your children. You bathe them in prayer. Like, may Ryan love God with all his heart, with all his mind, with all his soul, with all his strength, and love others as he loves himself. The other mom comes alongside and agrees, or two or more agree. And his name is really done.
SPEAKER 02 :
That must be something to behold. Do visitors ever come in and watch and listen?
SPEAKER 03 :
We have a lot of new moms who come that want to find out about Moms in Prayer. So we welcome them into our groups. And they're probably like me who did not pray out loud for a while. I sat there in the midst of it and witnessed this going on. And then we pray for a teacher. We don't talk about the teachers. We pray for the teachers. That's why so many teachers at our elementary school came to know Jesus as their Lord and Savior, because we prayed for them. And then we pray for the children on the campus. We ask for revival and spiritual awakening. My daughter, in her senior year on a high school, witnessed 91 kids come to know Jesus Christ.
SPEAKER 02 :
You don't.
SPEAKER 03 :
Yeah, and then they kept adding to their numbers. We prayed for Aubrey and her friends that they would not only love Jesus, but they would impact others for Christ. And so they themselves started to pray for their fellow students. They even started a Bible study. And sure enough, when there was a big outreach, 91 kids came to know Jesus, and they started going to this Bible study. I remember I asked my daughter, what are you teaching them? And she goes, well, we're going through the book of Romans line upon line. And they kept adding to the numbers. And it's been six years ago. And they still have that Bible study. Kids are still coming to know Jesus on that school campus. You see, we have not if we ask not. So we must come together for this next generation. We must pray. We must build that wall of fire around those schools. And His glory be within those schools. I've had non-Christian principals tell me they feel the difference when a Moms in Prayer group is on their campus or not.
SPEAKER 02 :
You can see why when I first heard of this concept and got acquainted with Vern, and I saw what she was trying to do, my heart was really drawn to it. And I just said, this is a good thing.
SPEAKER 03 :
Yes.
SPEAKER 02 :
And it has been. I mean, it started off as a little bitty thing.
SPEAKER 03 :
Yes.
SPEAKER 02 :
And then it just grew and grew and grew. How many individual chapters or units do you have?
SPEAKER 03 :
Yeah, we can't even keep count. We know we have over 100,000 women, but that's counting leadership. And so there may be 25 in a group. There may be only two in a group. So we literally do not know how many women that we have in Moms in Prayer. And I want you to think about this, Dr. Dobson. When Fern first started Moms in Touch at that time, which is Moms in Prayer now, she was one shaken mom. Her two kids were in her middle school. So she grabbed another shaken mom and they began to pray.
SPEAKER 02 :
It was divinely inspired. There isn't any question about it. How do they find out in France and Germany and other places around the world? How does that word spread?
SPEAKER 03 :
Multiple ways. Our women so love Moms in Prayer. They realize they've been given a gift to be part of Moms in Prayer. So when they go travel to another country, they take our booklets with them and they go share it. We also, our website, momsinprayer.org, many type in prayer or children and they find out and they contact us. And we have key leadership all throughout the world. We have 60,000 volunteers. These are volunteers. These are moms that want to gather women together. so that they can impact children in schools for Christ.
SPEAKER 02 :
You're excited about it, aren't you?
SPEAKER 03 :
I love it. You know, you asked me the last time, you said, do I miss the excitement of working on the shuttle? I mean, it was tremendous to watch the shuttle take off. But there's nothing like watching a woman's life transform, watching her children's lives transform, watching prodigals not only come home, but become pastors, become missionaries. There's nothing like that in the world.
SPEAKER 02 :
Sally, I congratulate you. Thank you for having the courage to take on a new responsibility, one that didn't have the status that you had as an engineer for NASA. Maybe not the dramatic events when the shuttle blasted off, but the Lord is working in your life, and it's on your face. And I appreciate your doing this. And I'll just pick up where we left off with Fern.
SPEAKER 03 :
Yes, yes, yeah. And Fern's doing well speaking and doing well. She's my mentor still, still prays for me still. You give her our love, will you? I will, Dr. Dobson. Thank you so much for this opportunity to be with you. And we thank the Lord for what you're doing. You're a part of what God's doing around the world.
SPEAKER 02 :
Well, that's what we're here for, too. We're on the same team, aren't we?
SPEAKER 03 :
Yes, we are.
SPEAKER 02 :
Come back and see us, will you?
SPEAKER 03 :
We will. Thank you.
SPEAKER 01 :
You know, we've seen God work in amazing ways when moms come together in prayer. And if you'd like to share this message with another mom in your life, use the Family Talk app or go to drjamesdobson.org forward slash family talk. And while you're there, you'll also find information about joining a moms in prayer group in your area. Well, if you enjoyed today's program, be sure you request the 2024 Best of Broadcast Collection. We've gathered our most impactful programs from this past year and curated them into one CD set. We'll be happy to send it to you as our way of thanking you for your faithful financial support Thank you, Father. every donation dollar for dollar right up until December 31st. So go online to drjamesdobson.org, make your best gift in support of our ministry, and we'll thank you for that tax-deductible donation by sending you a copy of our 2024 Best of Broadcast Collection. Again, go to drjamesdobson.org or write to us at Dr. James Dobson's Family Talk, P.O. Box 39000, Colorado Springs, Colorado, the zip code 80949. Now for Dr. Dobson and all of us here at the JDFI, I'm Roger Marsh. Thanks for spending time with us today. Be sure to join us again next time right here for another edition of Dr. James Dobson's Family Talk. This has been a presentation of the Dr. James Dobson Family Institute.
