Join Dr. Dobson and experts in today's Family Talk episode as they examine the complexities surrounding post-abortion emotions. Through the candid testimonies of Sidna Massey and her husband, hear how societal misconceptions often lead to stigmatization, isolating women further in their grief. Discover Sidna's transformative work with Rama International, a ministry dedicated to helping women find redemption. This episode not only challenges preconceived notions but also opens a dialog on how we can better support those who have walked this path, urging a commitment to love and forgiveness.
SPEAKER 03 :
Welcome everyone to Family Talk. It's a ministry of the James Dobson Family Institute supported by listeners just like you. I'm Dr. James Dobson and I'm thrilled that you've joined us.
SPEAKER 02 :
Well, welcome to Family Talk, the broadcast ministry of the Dr. James Dobson Family Institute. I'm Roger Marsh, and today's program will touch on one of life's most painful and personal struggles, the aftermath of abortion. For many women, this choice leaves deep emotional wounds that can take years, even decades, to heal. But there is hope through God's endless grace and mercy. Rama International, a ministry dedicated to helping post-abortive women find God's forgiveness and grace. Together with her husband Tom, she'll reveal how God's redemptive love can reach into our deepest wounds and bring unexpected healing. Now, this issue of the sanctity of human life is so important, especially during this month of January. 2025 is a time for the church to arise once more and to fight for the unborn. The pollsters may tell us that abortion is a losing issue, that people may look askance at us for speaking up. We might feel outgunned and alone as a pro-life voice, but none of this matters. What truly matters is speaking the truth of God's love in love. And what matters is exposing unfruitful works of darkness and comforting those women who've been victimized by abortion. Our own Dr. Owen Strand, the Senior Director of the New Dobson Culture Center, has put together a powerful pro-life resource available for you and your church to better educate the Christians in your community as to how to stand up for the unborn. We encourage you to go to drjamesdobson.org and check out this powerful new pro-life resource. It's available right now. Whether you're struggling with past choices or know someone who is, the conversation you're about to hear is definitely going to touch your heart with its raw honesty and a message of hope. Here now is Dr. James Dobson to begin this important discussion with his guests, Sidna and Tom Massey.
SPEAKER 03 :
Well, this is going to be a very tender broadcast. I really don't even know if I can get through it because there's a history here in our relationship with these two folks that goes back to 1991 when I was, of course, the president of Focus on the Family at the time and Sidna Massey. Joined our staff that year. I didn't really know her yet, but she accepted a responsibility in marketing, of all things, for three weeks. And then the Lord made it clear what he wanted her to do. She received an offer, a position, serving crisis pregnancy centers all across the country, caring for those young women. through the staffs and the directors of these crisis pregnancy centers, which were just burgeoning. They just showed up everywhere. And they were started by people, for the most part, that didn't have any training. They weren't medical people. They weren't nurses. But they loved these young women and wanted to do what they could to help them because they were so lost. They were so lonely. They were so scared. And they were so unsure of what it meant that they had gotten pregnant out of wedlock. And your job, one of them, was to reach out to both the directors and the workers and these women. And then I began to be aware of Sidna. And a year later, approximately a year later, I asked her to come be a guest on the broadcast. And to talk about that ministry. And what I learned that day is that Sidna was herself post-abortive, that she had killed her baby. Yes, I was 19. Yeah, was 19 years old and had struggled and struggled. gone through a lot of grief as a result of that. And that's the source of your passion for the women who are caught in this trap. and the lies that are associated with it. And you told that on the air. How hard was it for you that day to admit to the world, and we had several million people listening at that time, that you had aborted the only baby that you had?
SPEAKER 04 :
It was amazingly hard, but I don't believe I did it. The Lord came down and helped me do it.
SPEAKER 03 :
It's my understanding that many people even today condemn you for that, even though you have been forgiven by the Lord long, long ago. Is that really true?
SPEAKER 04 :
It does happen quite often. I think there's a lot of people out there that misunderstand why women abort. And they want to put the serial killer murder title on our shoulders. And we don't fit that. We are just normal people. And America, as many as 33% of all women have chosen abortion. This is not our statistics, the pro-life side. This is the provider statistics. So we know that there's millions and millions of us. But even in situations like prison or congregations of churches where grace and mercy is offered, very rarely can you tap this little part of our heart and get us to admit and confess.
SPEAKER 03 :
Well, you have a very tender place in your heart even today. For women that are caught in this, what I call the trap, they're dealing with an unwanted pregnancy and don't know what to do and don't know where to go. And you're also still trying to help the crisis pregnancy centers that are serving them. But you left Focus on the Family in 1998.
SPEAKER 04 :
Yes.
SPEAKER 03 :
And said goodbye, and you weren't sure where you were going, but you did not want to lose or leave this ministry.
SPEAKER 04 :
Well, the Lord showed me through my time at Focus that very little had been done for post-abortive women. And we had done so much through your ministry, through Focus. Many broadcasts, wonderful booklets, but there was no training. There was no Christian counseling even looking at this topic of grief. And so God opened that door for us to just walk through that, develop some resources. And we've been doing this ever since.
SPEAKER 03 :
And you started a ministry of your own called Rama.
SPEAKER 04 :
Rama International, yes.
SPEAKER 03 :
Explain the meaning of that word.
SPEAKER 04 :
It's based on Jeremiah 31, 15. A voice is heard in Ramah, mourning and great weeping, Rachel weeping for her children and refusing to be comforted because her children are no more. Now, that's a biblical outlook on the pain that a woman goes through, whether she's miscarried, had a stillborn, or chosen abortion. Pregnancy loss is something that when you choose it, it becomes a little bit deeper because you have the guilt of that on your shoulders. The next part of that verse says this is what the Lord says, "'Restrain your voice from weeping and your eyes from tears, for your work will be rewarded,' declares the Lord. Your children will return from the land of the enemy.'" It is probably one of the most difficult things anyone could ever ask a woman to do is take out this choice and look at it, talk about it, remember it, and find God's grace and mercy through that.
SPEAKER 03 :
It's your observation that many, many women, maybe the majority, who have gone through an abortion still have not dealt with it. They've stuffed it down, but it is still there and the pain is still very much alive.
SPEAKER 04 :
And the pain in my mind at the time, and I've talked to thousands upon thousands of post-abortive women, I am very typical, is that if we were ever to look at it and we were to start to crying, we could never stop. We are afraid that pain will overwhelm us to the point of suicide. The Lord put me in a place I was very terrified of working in a pro-life ministry because in my point of view, pro-life people would be the first to judge me. I was very protective of this secret, but I knew the Lord, and I knew He had His own ways of doing things. And when He made it very clear for me to go to Focus, the first thing that I walked in the door was these little feet pen. And they were given to us as a gift at orientation. And I flipped it over, and it said it was the size of a baby's feet at 10 weeks. And I was struck. My goodness, my baby was that size. And it wasn't painful. And it was interesting because the card was not judgmental. And before you knew it, I found myself that afternoon in orientation. Everyone was there. I think 350 people were hired when you move from California.
SPEAKER 03 :
Those were interesting days.
SPEAKER 04 :
Well, that was the first day you opened, and we were all in orientation.
SPEAKER 03 :
We had 10,000 applicants for 300 positions.
SPEAKER 04 :
And Paul Nelson said you were all called by God because it is a miracle you were hired out of those 10,000 applicants. So he certainly put the understanding that God wanted me there. I just didn't expect you, Dr. Dobson. They put on a video, Turning Your Heart Towards Home, and you started describing an abortion. And I was sitting there trying to be so very calm and unemotional and unresponsive because if I cried or show any emotions, everyone would know I had an abortion. And I was sitting next to my new boss, very afraid I'd be fired. And all of a sudden, you took a turn and you said the most beautiful words I think I've ever heard from a Christian leader. You said, I know I'm talking to many women who've had abortions. There is no sin that God can't forgive. And the problem may be you can't forgive yourself and you need help. And instantly the tears came down because you had identified my pain, but you had done something different. You had told me I was safe, that I was working for a ministry that didn't judge me, and that God was there. And that was the first time as a post-abortive person I met God personally.
SPEAKER 03 :
You know, to condemn someone who has taken this sin because it is sin to the Lord and been forgiven for it. and had it removed as far as the east is from the west, for us then to deny that that guilt has been expunged, and God doesn't even remember it anymore, and to continue to condemn that woman, that denies the power of the gospel. That's wrong. That's evil. And yet you say it still occurs, and I know it does.
SPEAKER 04 :
There is a lot of emotion around this issue, Dr. Dobson. There's a lot of people that have lost children. Maybe it's the man whose girlfriend aborted and he tried to stop her. All the anger he feels towards her is thrown at the person who is just available. And there's a lot of families, mothers, grandmothers, whose sons' girlfriends aborted their child and they're in pain. This is a very difficult issue that wounds those. And for some reason, it's the women that made this choice that is most identified with that pain. I had a young girl call me last week, and I rarely get the call back. Our job is normally to refer them to pregnancy centers. If they're crying, we'll take time. If it's Saturday and the center's not open, we'll talk to them. But she just said, I'm so upset that I ever considered abortion. And I simply said to her what I say to so many, but you didn't make that choice. And don't let the enemy beat you up for this. Make sure that you know that God's with you and that he has a design for your child and that he'll bring that child safely into the world.
SPEAKER 03 :
Let's talk to her, okay? Let's talk to her right now. What do you want to say to her? First of all, you're a child of God. He loves you. He's got a place for you. You're in his arms, and he's going to walk with you through whatever the future holds. Yes, you made a mistake, and you have been forgiven for it, and you will live someplace in heaven. Do not condemn yourself anymore. It's passed. It's done. There is no more guilt. I love that scripture where the scribes and Pharisees brought this woman caught in the very act of adultery, brought her and threw her on the ground in front of Jesus. And he knelt down and wrote something in the sand. I would love to have known what he wrote. And he asked her, who are your accusers? And they had left by then, and she didn't have any accusers. And he said, neither do I. Go and sin no more. What a beautiful story.
SPEAKER 04 :
The story, the one that I live, I feel like I live every day, is Luke 7. Jesus anointed by a sinful woman. She walked into the Pharisee's house where Jesus was eating, and she just got down on her knees and started to cry and cleansed his feet with her tears. and used her hair as the towel, and the Pharisee was judging her, that she was a sinner. And this is the one thing I probably will say the most to post-abortive people, is what Jesus said to that Pharisee. Suppose two people have a debt. One is, in American terms, $1,000. The other is $1 million. Both debts are forgiven by the President of the United States. Who's going to be more grateful? Well, and the Pharisee responds, the one who had the greater debt. And this is who I am. I am the one who had the greater debt. But he saw fit to forgive me and help me forgive myself.
SPEAKER 03 :
Have you done that, Sidna?
SPEAKER 04 :
Forgiving myself? Yes. I can look back at the former girl who was Sidna. I can understand her. I can know why she made her choices. And I can know that my child, whose name is Jesse Hawthorne Massey, my husband actually adopted my child in heaven. And I can know that his life had great value because of the work that I'm doing. The love that God gave to my heart for these women is his love. Because he forgave me.
SPEAKER 03 :
You know, when Focus on the Family was young and I was younger and I came with this passion for the unborn child because I had been on a journey. But I had walked a path that took me back to my graduate school years. I shared this with you in my office a few minutes ago where the professors were not sympathetic at all. with a pro-life issue. There was no pro-life movement at that time. And my professors would talk to me in very racist terms. And I can't believe they would say these things, but this is what I remember. They would say, you have to understand what's going on in the inner city. You've got these African-American kids whose fathers are a mystery and their mothers, some of them are on cocaine and they can't take care of the children. They're raised on the street and they're raised by gangs and they're just a sociological mess. And it would really be better if they had never been born. And when you're a student and your professors talk to you like that, you weigh those things and you think about them and, you know, who am I to argue with them? But I would come home and tell my dad. And my dad would... He would look at me and the big tears would run down his face. And he would say, no, no, no, that's wrong. Don't you believe it? That is wrong. That's an affront to God Almighty. Those children are precious. Every single one of them is precious. And then he would say, I would never cast one vote for anybody, any politician who would kill one innocent baby. And I began weighing that and thinking about it. And the Lord was talking to me. And by the time Focus on the Family came along, I knew what I believed largely because of the birth of this young man here who sits with us, Ryan Dobson, who was adopted. And I realized that a young mother carried him to terms. And then even though she didn't know us, put him in our arms and that I had him because of the pro-life sentiment that she must have gotten from somewhere. And from that point on, boy, I was committed to the teeth to preserve those unborn children. And I still am today. And you were part of it for me.
SPEAKER 04 :
It's been a wonderful journey to take a sin like this, to have it healed, to have God remove it, and then to say, okay, you get to talk to these girls who are right where you were.
SPEAKER 03 :
Sidney, let's take our remaining moments to talk about the crisis pregnancy centers today. They have a different name. They do. They are called.
SPEAKER 04 :
We refer to them as pregnancy centers now. Yeah.
SPEAKER 03 :
Very general term. How are they faring? The support for these centers is not quite so available.
SPEAKER 04 :
No, because of your work at Focus, many of them have ultrasounds now. They're able to open up and show the woman their wombs and bond with their babies. They bring the fathers in. The problem with this is it's a beautiful, wonderful, life-saving tool. It's expensive. It's a medical element of pregnancy center work, which has changed the structure and the funding. I can get on airplanes even today, and when I talk about a pregnancy center, most people have never heard of one. They don't even know they exist. I don't believe you. The most beautiful thing about pregnancy center work to me, though, is that there is nowhere else in our world outside of a few churches that have adopted this that actually offer ministry services to post-abortive women. They're not just there for saving the baby. They're there for the women who've made this choice, to help them be better wives and mothers, to help them come to grips with this choice they made and held.
SPEAKER 03 :
And that's what the Pregnancy Resource Center attempts to do, to be there for these girls. It's not just to bring the baby to term, but it's to minister to her.
SPEAKER 04 :
And as much as to the fathers as well. We're seeing this huge expansion of young boys, you know, in men's ministry beginning because there's two to this issue. And so many times the men just need a little coaxing to understand what this woman is going through and why this is too big of a decision for her to make on her own. And I want your listeners to know that adoption has changed. Most of the time when women are thinking of adoption, they think when she gives birth she'll never know where her child went. And through open adoptions, just by saying to a young girl who's considering abortion, did you know that you can select the parents, that you can actually get photos, you can keep in touch if you want to? This is a whole different world. Adoption has transformed, and we're all here because we were adopted by Christ. I'm not Jewish. Adoption's beautiful. I was adopted by my stepfather. I know the beauty and strength of having parents that care, whether they're your biological children or not.
SPEAKER 03 :
Ah.
SPEAKER 02 :
Well, you've been listening to a special edition of Dr. James Dobson's Family Talk and a deeply moving conversation about God's healing grace featuring Sidna Massey and her husband, Tom. Now, if you'd like more information about their ministry called Rama International, or if you'd like to share this message of hope with someone who needs to hear it, go to drjamesdobson.org forward slash family talk. And keep in mind, you can also share this program from our app using the JDFI app as well. Now, a couple of new mobile applications to tell you about here as 2025 kicks off in earnest. First of all, you can follow the JDFI on the new YouVersion Bible app that we have created, a nice partnership with the folks at YouVersion. You can join over 75,000 people who have subscribed to the three-day devotional plans with practical biblical insights to strengthen marriages and to equip people Now, you can get started with one of these popular plans, Dr. James Dobson's three-day marriage plan to improve communication skills or the three-day marriage plan for true love in your marriage. How about the three-day parenting plan for a mother's impact on her children or opting for effective discipline? These programs and more are now available when you follow the JDFI on the YouVersion Bible app. For more information on how you can do so, go to Google Play or the App Store. Keep in mind that we also have a brand new app just rolling out, and it's the JDFI Family app with more of an international flavor. You can find it now in the App Store. Soon you'll be able to find it in Google Play as well. Now, this is a powerful resource that features all of our Dr. Dobson Minutes, Dr. Dobson's new 60-second short feature, in addition to the new Dobson Marriage Podcast and the Dobson Parenting Podcast. Now, to access the new JDFI Family app, Go to the App Store and download it. It's really very simple. It's absolutely free. And you'll find all the materials there in English as well as Spanish. Later on, we'll be adding up to three new languages this year and also making it available for Android users in the Google Play Store. But for more information, go to the App Store right now. Download the new JDFI family app. You'll be glad you did. Well, I'm Roger Marsh. Thanks so much for joining us today here on Family Talk. For Dr. Dobson and the entire team here at the JDFI, we appreciate your prayers and your faithful support of our ministry. Join us again next time right here for part two of a powerful conversation with Sidna and Tom Massey. It's coming up next time right here on Dr. James Dobson's Family Talk.
SPEAKER 01 :
This has been a presentation of the Dr. James Dobson Family Institute.
SPEAKER 03 :
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Family Talk is a Christian non-profit organization located in Colorado Springs, Colorado. Founded in 2010 by Dr. James Dobson, the ministry promotes and teaches biblical principles that support marriage, family, and child-development. Since its inception, Family Talk has served millions of families with broadcasts, monthly newsletters, feature articles, videos, blogs, books and other resources available on demand via its website, mobile apps, and social media platforms. The Dr. James Dobson Family Institute (JDFI) is a Christian non-profit organization located in Colorado Springs, Colorado. Founded initially as Family Talk in 2010 by Dr. James Dobson, the ministry promotes and teaches biblical principles that support marriage, family, and child-development. Since its inception, Family Talk has served families with broadcasts, monthly newsletters, feature articles, videos, blogs, books, and other resources available on demand via its website, mobile apps, and social media platforms. In 2017, the ministry rebranded under JDFI to expand its four core ministry divisions consisting of Family Talk, the Dobson Policy and Education Centers, and the Dobson Digital Library. Dr. Dobson's flagship program, "Family Talk," is aired on more than 1,300 terrestrial radio outlets and numerous digital channels that reach millions of people each month.
Join Dr. Dobson and experts in today's Family Talk episode as they examine the complexities surrounding post-abortion emotions. Through the candid testimonies of Sidna Massey and her husband, hear how societal misconceptions often lead to stigmatization, isolating women further in their grief. Discover Sidna's transformative work with Rama International, a ministry dedicated to helping women find redemption. This episode not only challenges preconceived notions but also opens a dialog on how we can better support those who have walked this path, urging a commitment to love and forgiveness.
SPEAKER 03 :
Welcome everyone to Family Talk. It's a ministry of the James Dobson Family Institute supported by listeners just like you. I'm Dr. James Dobson and I'm thrilled that you've joined us.
SPEAKER 02 :
Well, welcome to Family Talk, the broadcast ministry of the Dr. James Dobson Family Institute. I'm Roger Marsh, and today's program will touch on one of life's most painful and personal struggles, the aftermath of abortion. For many women, this choice leaves deep emotional wounds that can take years, even decades, to heal. But there is hope through God's endless grace and mercy. Rama International, a ministry dedicated to helping post-abortive women find God's forgiveness and grace. Together with her husband Tom, she'll reveal how God's redemptive love can reach into our deepest wounds and bring unexpected healing. Now, this issue of the sanctity of human life is so important, especially during this month of January. 2025 is a time for the church to arise once more and to fight for the unborn. The pollsters may tell us that abortion is a losing issue, that people may look askance at us for speaking up. We might feel outgunned and alone as a pro-life voice, but none of this matters. What truly matters is speaking the truth of God's love in love. And what matters is exposing unfruitful works of darkness and comforting those women who've been victimized by abortion. Our own Dr. Owen Strand, the Senior Director of the New Dobson Culture Center, has put together a powerful pro-life resource available for you and your church to better educate the Christians in your community as to how to stand up for the unborn. We encourage you to go to drjamesdobson.org and check out this powerful new pro-life resource. It's available right now. Whether you're struggling with past choices or know someone who is, the conversation you're about to hear is definitely going to touch your heart with its raw honesty and a message of hope. Here now is Dr. James Dobson to begin this important discussion with his guests, Sidna and Tom Massey.
SPEAKER 03 :
Well, this is going to be a very tender broadcast. I really don't even know if I can get through it because there's a history here in our relationship with these two folks that goes back to 1991 when I was, of course, the president of Focus on the Family at the time and Sidna Massey. Joined our staff that year. I didn't really know her yet, but she accepted a responsibility in marketing, of all things, for three weeks. And then the Lord made it clear what he wanted her to do. She received an offer, a position, serving crisis pregnancy centers all across the country, caring for those young women. through the staffs and the directors of these crisis pregnancy centers, which were just burgeoning. They just showed up everywhere. And they were started by people, for the most part, that didn't have any training. They weren't medical people. They weren't nurses. But they loved these young women and wanted to do what they could to help them because they were so lost. They were so lonely. They were so scared. And they were so unsure of what it meant that they had gotten pregnant out of wedlock. And your job, one of them, was to reach out to both the directors and the workers and these women. And then I began to be aware of Sidna. And a year later, approximately a year later, I asked her to come be a guest on the broadcast. And to talk about that ministry. And what I learned that day is that Sidna was herself post-abortive, that she had killed her baby. Yes, I was 19. Yeah, was 19 years old and had struggled and struggled. gone through a lot of grief as a result of that. And that's the source of your passion for the women who are caught in this trap. and the lies that are associated with it. And you told that on the air. How hard was it for you that day to admit to the world, and we had several million people listening at that time, that you had aborted the only baby that you had?
SPEAKER 04 :
It was amazingly hard, but I don't believe I did it. The Lord came down and helped me do it.
SPEAKER 03 :
It's my understanding that many people even today condemn you for that, even though you have been forgiven by the Lord long, long ago. Is that really true?
SPEAKER 04 :
It does happen quite often. I think there's a lot of people out there that misunderstand why women abort. And they want to put the serial killer murder title on our shoulders. And we don't fit that. We are just normal people. And America, as many as 33% of all women have chosen abortion. This is not our statistics, the pro-life side. This is the provider statistics. So we know that there's millions and millions of us. But even in situations like prison or congregations of churches where grace and mercy is offered, very rarely can you tap this little part of our heart and get us to admit and confess.
SPEAKER 03 :
Well, you have a very tender place in your heart even today. For women that are caught in this, what I call the trap, they're dealing with an unwanted pregnancy and don't know what to do and don't know where to go. And you're also still trying to help the crisis pregnancy centers that are serving them. But you left Focus on the Family in 1998.
SPEAKER 04 :
Yes.
SPEAKER 03 :
And said goodbye, and you weren't sure where you were going, but you did not want to lose or leave this ministry.
SPEAKER 04 :
Well, the Lord showed me through my time at Focus that very little had been done for post-abortive women. And we had done so much through your ministry, through Focus. Many broadcasts, wonderful booklets, but there was no training. There was no Christian counseling even looking at this topic of grief. And so God opened that door for us to just walk through that, develop some resources. And we've been doing this ever since.
SPEAKER 03 :
And you started a ministry of your own called Rama.
SPEAKER 04 :
Rama International, yes.
SPEAKER 03 :
Explain the meaning of that word.
SPEAKER 04 :
It's based on Jeremiah 31, 15. A voice is heard in Ramah, mourning and great weeping, Rachel weeping for her children and refusing to be comforted because her children are no more. Now, that's a biblical outlook on the pain that a woman goes through, whether she's miscarried, had a stillborn, or chosen abortion. Pregnancy loss is something that when you choose it, it becomes a little bit deeper because you have the guilt of that on your shoulders. The next part of that verse says this is what the Lord says, "'Restrain your voice from weeping and your eyes from tears, for your work will be rewarded,' declares the Lord. Your children will return from the land of the enemy.'" It is probably one of the most difficult things anyone could ever ask a woman to do is take out this choice and look at it, talk about it, remember it, and find God's grace and mercy through that.
SPEAKER 03 :
It's your observation that many, many women, maybe the majority, who have gone through an abortion still have not dealt with it. They've stuffed it down, but it is still there and the pain is still very much alive.
SPEAKER 04 :
And the pain in my mind at the time, and I've talked to thousands upon thousands of post-abortive women, I am very typical, is that if we were ever to look at it and we were to start to crying, we could never stop. We are afraid that pain will overwhelm us to the point of suicide. The Lord put me in a place I was very terrified of working in a pro-life ministry because in my point of view, pro-life people would be the first to judge me. I was very protective of this secret, but I knew the Lord, and I knew He had His own ways of doing things. And when He made it very clear for me to go to Focus, the first thing that I walked in the door was these little feet pen. And they were given to us as a gift at orientation. And I flipped it over, and it said it was the size of a baby's feet at 10 weeks. And I was struck. My goodness, my baby was that size. And it wasn't painful. And it was interesting because the card was not judgmental. And before you knew it, I found myself that afternoon in orientation. Everyone was there. I think 350 people were hired when you move from California.
SPEAKER 03 :
Those were interesting days.
SPEAKER 04 :
Well, that was the first day you opened, and we were all in orientation.
SPEAKER 03 :
We had 10,000 applicants for 300 positions.
SPEAKER 04 :
And Paul Nelson said you were all called by God because it is a miracle you were hired out of those 10,000 applicants. So he certainly put the understanding that God wanted me there. I just didn't expect you, Dr. Dobson. They put on a video, Turning Your Heart Towards Home, and you started describing an abortion. And I was sitting there trying to be so very calm and unemotional and unresponsive because if I cried or show any emotions, everyone would know I had an abortion. And I was sitting next to my new boss, very afraid I'd be fired. And all of a sudden, you took a turn and you said the most beautiful words I think I've ever heard from a Christian leader. You said, I know I'm talking to many women who've had abortions. There is no sin that God can't forgive. And the problem may be you can't forgive yourself and you need help. And instantly the tears came down because you had identified my pain, but you had done something different. You had told me I was safe, that I was working for a ministry that didn't judge me, and that God was there. And that was the first time as a post-abortive person I met God personally.
SPEAKER 03 :
You know, to condemn someone who has taken this sin because it is sin to the Lord and been forgiven for it. and had it removed as far as the east is from the west, for us then to deny that that guilt has been expunged, and God doesn't even remember it anymore, and to continue to condemn that woman, that denies the power of the gospel. That's wrong. That's evil. And yet you say it still occurs, and I know it does.
SPEAKER 04 :
There is a lot of emotion around this issue, Dr. Dobson. There's a lot of people that have lost children. Maybe it's the man whose girlfriend aborted and he tried to stop her. All the anger he feels towards her is thrown at the person who is just available. And there's a lot of families, mothers, grandmothers, whose sons' girlfriends aborted their child and they're in pain. This is a very difficult issue that wounds those. And for some reason, it's the women that made this choice that is most identified with that pain. I had a young girl call me last week, and I rarely get the call back. Our job is normally to refer them to pregnancy centers. If they're crying, we'll take time. If it's Saturday and the center's not open, we'll talk to them. But she just said, I'm so upset that I ever considered abortion. And I simply said to her what I say to so many, but you didn't make that choice. And don't let the enemy beat you up for this. Make sure that you know that God's with you and that he has a design for your child and that he'll bring that child safely into the world.
SPEAKER 03 :
Let's talk to her, okay? Let's talk to her right now. What do you want to say to her? First of all, you're a child of God. He loves you. He's got a place for you. You're in his arms, and he's going to walk with you through whatever the future holds. Yes, you made a mistake, and you have been forgiven for it, and you will live someplace in heaven. Do not condemn yourself anymore. It's passed. It's done. There is no more guilt. I love that scripture where the scribes and Pharisees brought this woman caught in the very act of adultery, brought her and threw her on the ground in front of Jesus. And he knelt down and wrote something in the sand. I would love to have known what he wrote. And he asked her, who are your accusers? And they had left by then, and she didn't have any accusers. And he said, neither do I. Go and sin no more. What a beautiful story.
SPEAKER 04 :
The story, the one that I live, I feel like I live every day, is Luke 7. Jesus anointed by a sinful woman. She walked into the Pharisee's house where Jesus was eating, and she just got down on her knees and started to cry and cleansed his feet with her tears. and used her hair as the towel, and the Pharisee was judging her, that she was a sinner. And this is the one thing I probably will say the most to post-abortive people, is what Jesus said to that Pharisee. Suppose two people have a debt. One is, in American terms, $1,000. The other is $1 million. Both debts are forgiven by the President of the United States. Who's going to be more grateful? Well, and the Pharisee responds, the one who had the greater debt. And this is who I am. I am the one who had the greater debt. But he saw fit to forgive me and help me forgive myself.
SPEAKER 03 :
Have you done that, Sidna?
SPEAKER 04 :
Forgiving myself? Yes. I can look back at the former girl who was Sidna. I can understand her. I can know why she made her choices. And I can know that my child, whose name is Jesse Hawthorne Massey, my husband actually adopted my child in heaven. And I can know that his life had great value because of the work that I'm doing. The love that God gave to my heart for these women is his love. Because he forgave me.
SPEAKER 03 :
You know, when Focus on the Family was young and I was younger and I came with this passion for the unborn child because I had been on a journey. But I had walked a path that took me back to my graduate school years. I shared this with you in my office a few minutes ago where the professors were not sympathetic at all. with a pro-life issue. There was no pro-life movement at that time. And my professors would talk to me in very racist terms. And I can't believe they would say these things, but this is what I remember. They would say, you have to understand what's going on in the inner city. You've got these African-American kids whose fathers are a mystery and their mothers, some of them are on cocaine and they can't take care of the children. They're raised on the street and they're raised by gangs and they're just a sociological mess. And it would really be better if they had never been born. And when you're a student and your professors talk to you like that, you weigh those things and you think about them and, you know, who am I to argue with them? But I would come home and tell my dad. And my dad would... He would look at me and the big tears would run down his face. And he would say, no, no, no, that's wrong. Don't you believe it? That is wrong. That's an affront to God Almighty. Those children are precious. Every single one of them is precious. And then he would say, I would never cast one vote for anybody, any politician who would kill one innocent baby. And I began weighing that and thinking about it. And the Lord was talking to me. And by the time Focus on the Family came along, I knew what I believed largely because of the birth of this young man here who sits with us, Ryan Dobson, who was adopted. And I realized that a young mother carried him to terms. And then even though she didn't know us, put him in our arms and that I had him because of the pro-life sentiment that she must have gotten from somewhere. And from that point on, boy, I was committed to the teeth to preserve those unborn children. And I still am today. And you were part of it for me.
SPEAKER 04 :
It's been a wonderful journey to take a sin like this, to have it healed, to have God remove it, and then to say, okay, you get to talk to these girls who are right where you were.
SPEAKER 03 :
Sidney, let's take our remaining moments to talk about the crisis pregnancy centers today. They have a different name. They do. They are called.
SPEAKER 04 :
We refer to them as pregnancy centers now. Yeah.
SPEAKER 03 :
Very general term. How are they faring? The support for these centers is not quite so available.
SPEAKER 04 :
No, because of your work at Focus, many of them have ultrasounds now. They're able to open up and show the woman their wombs and bond with their babies. They bring the fathers in. The problem with this is it's a beautiful, wonderful, life-saving tool. It's expensive. It's a medical element of pregnancy center work, which has changed the structure and the funding. I can get on airplanes even today, and when I talk about a pregnancy center, most people have never heard of one. They don't even know they exist. I don't believe you. The most beautiful thing about pregnancy center work to me, though, is that there is nowhere else in our world outside of a few churches that have adopted this that actually offer ministry services to post-abortive women. They're not just there for saving the baby. They're there for the women who've made this choice, to help them be better wives and mothers, to help them come to grips with this choice they made and held.
SPEAKER 03 :
And that's what the Pregnancy Resource Center attempts to do, to be there for these girls. It's not just to bring the baby to term, but it's to minister to her.
SPEAKER 04 :
And as much as to the fathers as well. We're seeing this huge expansion of young boys, you know, in men's ministry beginning because there's two to this issue. And so many times the men just need a little coaxing to understand what this woman is going through and why this is too big of a decision for her to make on her own. And I want your listeners to know that adoption has changed. Most of the time when women are thinking of adoption, they think when she gives birth she'll never know where her child went. And through open adoptions, just by saying to a young girl who's considering abortion, did you know that you can select the parents, that you can actually get photos, you can keep in touch if you want to? This is a whole different world. Adoption has transformed, and we're all here because we were adopted by Christ. I'm not Jewish. Adoption's beautiful. I was adopted by my stepfather. I know the beauty and strength of having parents that care, whether they're your biological children or not.
SPEAKER 03 :
Ah.
SPEAKER 02 :
Well, you've been listening to a special edition of Dr. James Dobson's Family Talk and a deeply moving conversation about God's healing grace featuring Sidna Massey and her husband, Tom. Now, if you'd like more information about their ministry called Rama International, or if you'd like to share this message of hope with someone who needs to hear it, go to drjamesdobson.org forward slash family talk. And keep in mind, you can also share this program from our app using the JDFI app as well. Now, a couple of new mobile applications to tell you about here as 2025 kicks off in earnest. First of all, you can follow the JDFI on the new YouVersion Bible app that we have created, a nice partnership with the folks at YouVersion. You can join over 75,000 people who have subscribed to the three-day devotional plans with practical biblical insights to strengthen marriages and to equip people Now, you can get started with one of these popular plans, Dr. James Dobson's three-day marriage plan to improve communication skills or the three-day marriage plan for true love in your marriage. How about the three-day parenting plan for a mother's impact on her children or opting for effective discipline? These programs and more are now available when you follow the JDFI on the YouVersion Bible app. For more information on how you can do so, go to Google Play or the App Store. Keep in mind that we also have a brand new app just rolling out, and it's the JDFI Family app with more of an international flavor. You can find it now in the App Store. Soon you'll be able to find it in Google Play as well. Now, this is a powerful resource that features all of our Dr. Dobson Minutes, Dr. Dobson's new 60-second short feature, in addition to the new Dobson Marriage Podcast and the Dobson Parenting Podcast. Now, to access the new JDFI Family app, Go to the App Store and download it. It's really very simple. It's absolutely free. And you'll find all the materials there in English as well as Spanish. Later on, we'll be adding up to three new languages this year and also making it available for Android users in the Google Play Store. But for more information, go to the App Store right now. Download the new JDFI family app. You'll be glad you did. Well, I'm Roger Marsh. Thanks so much for joining us today here on Family Talk. For Dr. Dobson and the entire team here at the JDFI, we appreciate your prayers and your faithful support of our ministry. Join us again next time right here for part two of a powerful conversation with Sidna and Tom Massey. It's coming up next time right here on Dr. James Dobson's Family Talk.
SPEAKER 01 :
This has been a presentation of the Dr. James Dobson Family Institute.
SPEAKER 03 :
Hello, everyone. Do you need help dealing with the everyday tasks of raising a family? I'm James Dobson here, and if you do, I hope you'll tune in to our next edition of Family Talk. Our main purpose in this ministry is to put tools into your hands that will strengthen your marriage and help you raise your kids. Hope to see you right here next time for another edition of Family Talk.
Join Dr. James Dobson, Roger Marsh, and their guests Sidna and Tom Massey, for a powerful discussion on the personal aftermath of abortion and the redeeming grace that emerges through God's love. Sidna shares her story of regret, healing, and her passion for helping women who face similar struggles. Learn how the support systems available through crisis pregnancy centers and organizations like Rama International are transforming lives. This episode encourages a broader dialogue about the sanctity of human life and the significance of offering compassion and guidance to those who need it most in their journey toward healing.
SPEAKER 03 :
Welcome everyone to Family Talk. It's a ministry of the James Dobson Family Institute supported by listeners just like you. I'm Dr. James Dobson and I'm thrilled that you've joined us.
SPEAKER 02 :
Well, welcome to Family Talk, the broadcast ministry of the Dr. James Dobson Family Institute. I'm Roger Marsh, and today's program will touch on one of life's most painful and personal struggles, the aftermath of abortion. For many women, this choice leaves deep emotional wounds that can take years, even decades, to heal. But there is hope through God's endless grace and mercy. Rama International, a ministry dedicated to helping post-abortive women find God's forgiveness and grace. Together with her husband Tom, she'll reveal how God's redemptive love can reach into our deepest wounds and bring unexpected healing. Now, this issue of the sanctity of human life is so important, especially during this month of January. 2025 is a time for the church to arise once more and to fight for the unborn. The pollsters may tell us that abortion is a losing issue, that people may look askance at us for speaking up. We might feel outgunned and alone as a pro-life voice, but none of this matters. What truly matters is speaking the truth of God's love in love. And what matters is exposing unfruitful works of darkness and comforting those women who've been victimized by abortion. Our own Dr. Owen Strand, the Senior Director of the New Dobson Culture Center, has put together a powerful pro-life resource available for you and your church to better educate the Christians in your community as to how to stand up for the unborn. We encourage you to go to drjamesdobson.org and check out this powerful new pro-life resource. It's available right now. Whether you're struggling with past choices or know someone who is, the conversation you're about to hear is definitely going to touch your heart with its raw honesty and a message of hope. Here now is Dr. James Dobson to begin this important discussion with his guests, Sidna and Tom Massey.
SPEAKER 03 :
Well, this is going to be a very tender broadcast. I really don't even know if I can get through it because there's a history here in our relationship with these two folks that goes back to 1991 when I was, of course, the president of Focus on the Family at the time and Sidna Massey. Joined our staff that year. I didn't really know her yet, but she accepted a responsibility in marketing, of all things, for three weeks. And then the Lord made it clear what he wanted her to do. She received an offer, a position, serving crisis pregnancy centers all across the country, caring for those young women. through the staffs and the directors of these crisis pregnancy centers, which were just burgeoning. They just showed up everywhere. And they were started by people, for the most part, that didn't have any training. They weren't medical people. They weren't nurses. But they loved these young women and wanted to do what they could to help them because they were so lost. They were so lonely. They were so scared. And they were so unsure of what it meant that they had gotten pregnant out of wedlock. And your job, one of them, was to reach out to both the directors and the workers and these women. And then I began to be aware of Sidna. And a year later, approximately a year later, I asked her to come be a guest on the broadcast. And to talk about that ministry. And what I learned that day is that Sidna was herself post-abortive, that she had killed her baby. Yes, I was 19. Yeah, was 19 years old and had struggled and struggled. gone through a lot of grief as a result of that. And that's the source of your passion for the women who are caught in this trap. and the lies that are associated with it. And you told that on the air. How hard was it for you that day to admit to the world, and we had several million people listening at that time, that you had aborted the only baby that you had?
SPEAKER 04 :
It was amazingly hard, but I don't believe I did it. The Lord came down and helped me do it.
SPEAKER 03 :
It's my understanding that many people even today condemn you for that, even though you have been forgiven by the Lord long, long ago. Is that really true?
SPEAKER 04 :
It does happen quite often. I think there's a lot of people out there that misunderstand why women abort. And they want to put the serial killer murder title on our shoulders. And we don't fit that. We are just normal people. And America, as many as 33% of all women have chosen abortion. This is not our statistics, the pro-life side. This is the provider statistics. So we know that there's millions and millions of us. But even in situations like prison or congregations of churches where grace and mercy is offered, very rarely can you tap this little part of our heart and get us to admit and confess.
SPEAKER 03 :
Well, you have a very tender place in your heart even today. For women that are caught in this, what I call the trap, they're dealing with an unwanted pregnancy and don't know what to do and don't know where to go. And you're also still trying to help the crisis pregnancy centers that are serving them. But you left Focus on the Family in 1998.
SPEAKER 04 :
Yes.
SPEAKER 03 :
And said goodbye, and you weren't sure where you were going, but you did not want to lose or leave this ministry.
SPEAKER 04 :
Well, the Lord showed me through my time at Focus that very little had been done for post-abortive women. And we had done so much through your ministry, through Focus. Many broadcasts, wonderful booklets, but there was no training. There was no Christian counseling even looking at this topic of grief. And so God opened that door for us to just walk through that, develop some resources. And we've been doing this ever since.
SPEAKER 03 :
And you started a ministry of your own called Rama.
SPEAKER 04 :
Rama International, yes.
SPEAKER 03 :
Explain the meaning of that word.
SPEAKER 04 :
It's based on Jeremiah 31, 15. A voice is heard in Ramah, mourning and great weeping, Rachel weeping for her children and refusing to be comforted because her children are no more. Now, that's a biblical outlook on the pain that a woman goes through, whether she's miscarried, had a stillborn, or chosen abortion. Pregnancy loss is something that when you choose it, it becomes a little bit deeper because you have the guilt of that on your shoulders. The next part of that verse says this is what the Lord says, "'Restrain your voice from weeping and your eyes from tears, for your work will be rewarded,' declares the Lord. Your children will return from the land of the enemy.'" It is probably one of the most difficult things anyone could ever ask a woman to do is take out this choice and look at it, talk about it, remember it, and find God's grace and mercy through that.
SPEAKER 03 :
It's your observation that many, many women, maybe the majority, who have gone through an abortion still have not dealt with it. They've stuffed it down, but it is still there and the pain is still very much alive.
SPEAKER 04 :
And the pain in my mind at the time, and I've talked to thousands upon thousands of post-abortive women, I am very typical, is that if we were ever to look at it and we were to start to crying, we could never stop. We are afraid that pain will overwhelm us to the point of suicide. The Lord put me in a place I was very terrified of working in a pro-life ministry because in my point of view, pro-life people would be the first to judge me. I was very protective of this secret, but I knew the Lord, and I knew He had His own ways of doing things. And when He made it very clear for me to go to Focus, the first thing that I walked in the door was these little feet pen. And they were given to us as a gift at orientation. And I flipped it over, and it said it was the size of a baby's feet at 10 weeks. And I was struck. My goodness, my baby was that size. And it wasn't painful. And it was interesting because the card was not judgmental. And before you knew it, I found myself that afternoon in orientation. Everyone was there. I think 350 people were hired when you move from California.
SPEAKER 03 :
Those were interesting days.
SPEAKER 04 :
Well, that was the first day you opened, and we were all in orientation.
SPEAKER 03 :
We had 10,000 applicants for 300 positions.
SPEAKER 04 :
And Paul Nelson said you were all called by God because it is a miracle you were hired out of those 10,000 applicants. So he certainly put the understanding that God wanted me there. I just didn't expect you, Dr. Dobson. They put on a video, Turning Your Heart Towards Home, and you started describing an abortion. And I was sitting there trying to be so very calm and unemotional and unresponsive because if I cried or show any emotions, everyone would know I had an abortion. And I was sitting next to my new boss, very afraid I'd be fired. And all of a sudden, you took a turn and you said the most beautiful words I think I've ever heard from a Christian leader. You said, I know I'm talking to many women who've had abortions. There is no sin that God can't forgive. And the problem may be you can't forgive yourself and you need help. And instantly the tears came down because you had identified my pain, but you had done something different. You had told me I was safe, that I was working for a ministry that didn't judge me, and that God was there. And that was the first time as a post-abortive person I met God personally.
SPEAKER 03 :
You know, to condemn someone who has taken this sin because it is sin to the Lord and been forgiven for it. and had it removed as far as the east is from the west, for us then to deny that that guilt has been expunged, and God doesn't even remember it anymore, and to continue to condemn that woman, that denies the power of the gospel. That's wrong. That's evil. And yet you say it still occurs, and I know it does.
SPEAKER 04 :
There is a lot of emotion around this issue, Dr. Dobson. There's a lot of people that have lost children. Maybe it's the man whose girlfriend aborted and he tried to stop her. All the anger he feels towards her is thrown at the person who is just available. And there's a lot of families, mothers, grandmothers, whose sons' girlfriends aborted their child and they're in pain. This is a very difficult issue that wounds those. And for some reason, it's the women that made this choice that is most identified with that pain. I had a young girl call me last week, and I rarely get the call back. Our job is normally to refer them to pregnancy centers. If they're crying, we'll take time. If it's Saturday and the center's not open, we'll talk to them. But she just said, I'm so upset that I ever considered abortion. And I simply said to her what I say to so many, but you didn't make that choice. And don't let the enemy beat you up for this. Make sure that you know that God's with you and that he has a design for your child and that he'll bring that child safely into the world.
SPEAKER 03 :
Let's talk to her, okay? Let's talk to her right now. What do you want to say to her? First of all, you're a child of God. He loves you. He's got a place for you. You're in his arms, and he's going to walk with you through whatever the future holds. Yes, you made a mistake, and you have been forgiven for it, and you will live someplace in heaven. Do not condemn yourself anymore. It's passed. It's done. There is no more guilt. I love that scripture where the scribes and Pharisees brought this woman caught in the very act of adultery, brought her and threw her on the ground in front of Jesus. And he knelt down and wrote something in the sand. I would love to have known what he wrote. And he asked her, who are your accusers? And they had left by then, and she didn't have any accusers. And he said, neither do I. Go and sin no more. What a beautiful story.
SPEAKER 04 :
The story, the one that I live, I feel like I live every day, is Luke 7. Jesus anointed by a sinful woman. She walked into the Pharisee's house where Jesus was eating, and she just got down on her knees and started to cry and cleansed his feet with her tears. and used her hair as the towel, and the Pharisee was judging her, that she was a sinner. And this is the one thing I probably will say the most to post-abortive people, is what Jesus said to that Pharisee. Suppose two people have a debt. One is, in American terms, $1,000. The other is $1 million. Both debts are forgiven by the President of the United States. Who's going to be more grateful? Well, and the Pharisee responds, the one who had the greater debt. And this is who I am. I am the one who had the greater debt. But he saw fit to forgive me and help me forgive myself.
SPEAKER 03 :
Have you done that, Sidna?
SPEAKER 04 :
Forgiving myself? Yes. I can look back at the former girl who was Sidna. I can understand her. I can know why she made her choices. And I can know that my child, whose name is Jesse Hawthorne Massey, my husband actually adopted my child in heaven. And I can know that his life had great value because of the work that I'm doing. The love that God gave to my heart for these women is his love. Because he forgave me.
SPEAKER 03 :
You know, when Focus on the Family was young and I was younger and I came with this passion for the unborn child because I had been on a journey. But I had walked a path that took me back to my graduate school years. I shared this with you in my office a few minutes ago where the professors were not sympathetic at all. with a pro-life issue. There was no pro-life movement at that time. And my professors would talk to me in very racist terms. And I can't believe they would say these things, but this is what I remember. They would say, you have to understand what's going on in the inner city. You've got these African-American kids whose fathers are a mystery and their mothers, some of them are on cocaine and they can't take care of the children. They're raised on the street and they're raised by gangs and they're just a sociological mess. And it would really be better if they had never been born. And when you're a student and your professors talk to you like that, you weigh those things and you think about them and, you know, who am I to argue with them? But I would come home and tell my dad. And my dad would... He would look at me and the big tears would run down his face. And he would say, no, no, no, that's wrong. Don't you believe it? That is wrong. That's an affront to God Almighty. Those children are precious. Every single one of them is precious. And then he would say, I would never cast one vote for anybody, any politician who would kill one innocent baby. And I began weighing that and thinking about it. And the Lord was talking to me. And by the time Focus on the Family came along, I knew what I believed largely because of the birth of this young man here who sits with us, Ryan Dobson, who was adopted. And I realized that a young mother carried him to terms. And then even though she didn't know us, put him in our arms and that I had him because of the pro-life sentiment that she must have gotten from somewhere. And from that point on, boy, I was committed to the teeth to preserve those unborn children. And I still am today. And you were part of it for me.
SPEAKER 04 :
It's been a wonderful journey to take a sin like this, to have it healed, to have God remove it, and then to say, okay, you get to talk to these girls who are right where you were.
SPEAKER 03 :
Sidney, let's take our remaining moments to talk about the crisis pregnancy centers today. They have a different name. They do. They are called.
SPEAKER 04 :
We refer to them as pregnancy centers now. Yeah.
SPEAKER 03 :
Very general term. How are they faring? The support for these centers is not quite so available.
SPEAKER 04 :
No, because of your work at Focus, many of them have ultrasounds now. They're able to open up and show the woman their wombs and bond with their babies. They bring the fathers in. The problem with this is it's a beautiful, wonderful, life-saving tool. It's expensive. It's a medical element of pregnancy center work, which has changed the structure and the funding. I can get on airplanes even today, and when I talk about a pregnancy center, most people have never heard of one. They don't even know they exist. I don't believe you. The most beautiful thing about pregnancy center work to me, though, is that there is nowhere else in our world outside of a few churches that have adopted this that actually offer ministry services to post-abortive women. They're not just there for saving the baby. They're there for the women who've made this choice, to help them be better wives and mothers, to help them come to grips with this choice they made and held.
SPEAKER 03 :
And that's what the Pregnancy Resource Center attempts to do, to be there for these girls. It's not just to bring the baby to term, but it's to minister to her.
SPEAKER 04 :
And as much as to the fathers as well. We're seeing this huge expansion of young boys, you know, in men's ministry beginning because there's two to this issue. And so many times the men just need a little coaxing to understand what this woman is going through and why this is too big of a decision for her to make on her own. And I want your listeners to know that adoption has changed. Most of the time when women are thinking of adoption, they think when she gives birth she'll never know where her child went. And through open adoptions, just by saying to a young girl who's considering abortion, did you know that you can select the parents, that you can actually get photos, you can keep in touch if you want to? This is a whole different world. Adoption has transformed, and we're all here because we were adopted by Christ. I'm not Jewish. Adoption's beautiful. I was adopted by my stepfather. I know the beauty and strength of having parents that care, whether they're your biological children or not.
SPEAKER 03 :
Ah.
SPEAKER 02 :
Well, you've been listening to a special edition of Dr. James Dobson's Family Talk and a deeply moving conversation about God's healing grace featuring Sidna Massey and her husband, Tom. Now, if you'd like more information about their ministry called Rama International, or if you'd like to share this message of hope with someone who needs to hear it, go to drjamesdobson.org forward slash family talk. And keep in mind, you can also share this program from our app using the JDFI app as well. Now, a couple of new mobile applications to tell you about here as 2025 kicks off in earnest. First of all, you can follow the JDFI on the new YouVersion Bible app that we have created, a nice partnership with the folks at YouVersion. You can join over 75,000 people who have subscribed to the three-day devotional plans with practical biblical insights to strengthen marriages and to equip people Now, you can get started with one of these popular plans, Dr. James Dobson's three-day marriage plan to improve communication skills or the three-day marriage plan for true love in your marriage. How about the three-day parenting plan for a mother's impact on her children or opting for effective discipline? These programs and more are now available when you follow the JDFI on the YouVersion Bible app. For more information on how you can do so, go to Google Play or the App Store. Keep in mind that we also have a brand new app just rolling out, and it's the JDFI Family app with more of an international flavor. You can find it now in the App Store. Soon you'll be able to find it in Google Play as well. Now, this is a powerful resource that features all of our Dr. Dobson Minutes, Dr. Dobson's new 60-second short feature, in addition to the new Dobson Marriage Podcast and the Dobson Parenting Podcast. Now, to access the new JDFI Family app, Go to the App Store and download it. It's really very simple. It's absolutely free. And you'll find all the materials there in English as well as Spanish. Later on, we'll be adding up to three new languages this year and also making it available for Android users in the Google Play Store. But for more information, go to the App Store right now. Download the new JDFI family app. You'll be glad you did. Well, I'm Roger Marsh. Thanks so much for joining us today here on Family Talk. For Dr. Dobson and the entire team here at the JDFI, we appreciate your prayers and your faithful support of our ministry. Join us again next time right here for part two of a powerful conversation with Sidna and Tom Massey. It's coming up next time right here on Dr. James Dobson's Family Talk.
SPEAKER 01 :
This has been a presentation of the Dr. James Dobson Family Institute.
SPEAKER 03 :
Hello, everyone. Do you need help dealing with the everyday tasks of raising a family? I'm James Dobson here, and if you do, I hope you'll tune in to our next edition of Family Talk. Our main purpose in this ministry is to put tools into your hands that will strengthen your marriage and help you raise your kids. Hope to see you right here next time for another edition of Family Talk.
Join us for a special broadcast examining the sanctity of human life, featuring a poignant letter read by Dr. James Dobson. The story, originally penned by Dr. Frederick Loomis, recounts a doctor's internal battle during a breech delivery that unexpectedly ends in celebration. As he grapples with moral dilemmas, Dr. Loomis discovers hope and happiness where it was least expected, leaving us to reflect on the enduring legacy that compassion and courage can create.
SPEAKER 01 :
Welcome everyone to Family Talk. It's a ministry of the James Dobson Family Institute supported by listeners just like you. I'm Dr. James Dobson and I'm thrilled that you've joined us.
SPEAKER 02 :
Well, welcome to Family Talk, the broadcast ministry of the Dr. James Dobson Family Institute. I'm Roger Marsh, and of course, all throughout the month of January, we are recognizing sanctity of human life here at the JDFI. It's a time when we reflect deeply on the precious gift of life that God has entrusted to us. This past year and a half has brought historic changes that many of us never thought we'd witness in our lifetimes. It was June 24th, 2022, that after nearly 50 years of prayer and dedicated effort from millions of Americans, the U.S. Supreme Court overturned Roe v. Wade in the landmark Dobbs v. Jackson decision. This represented an unprecedented victory for the pro-life movement and opened the door for states to protect unborn children like never before. Yet even as we celebrate this milestone, we know our work in this area is far from complete. Hearts and minds still need to be changed, and women facing difficult circumstances need our support and compassion now more than ever. Well, today here on Family Talk, we're going to share a letter written a few years back by our very own Dr. James Dobson. In it, he shares the story of a doctor faced with an impossible choice in a delivery room many years ago. This account comes from Dr. Frederick Loomis, who practiced medicine in California during a time when medical options were far more limited than they are today. His experience speaks to the profound value of every human life, and perhaps especially when that life doesn't match our expectations of quote-unquote perfect. Now, as Dr. Dobson reads this letter, I encourage you to listen with an open heart. Whether you're driving to work, doing dishes at home, taking a quiet moment for yourself, maybe you're working out at the gym. This story will remind us why we must continue to advocate for the sanctity of human life. It shows us how one decision to protect a vulnerable life can have ripple effects that touch countless others in beautiful and unexpected ways. By the way, I should mention that during Sanctity of Life Month here at the James Dobson Family Institute, We encourage you to be praying for the pregnancy resource centers in your area. If you're looking for access to how you can get a hold of the information as to finding a pregnancy resource center in your area, check out our website at drjamesdobson.org. We'll be happy to... encourage you or call our resource center at 877-732-6825. The pregnancy resource centers are doing the heavy lifting, helping a lot of women who may be considering abortion to know that they have other options, including adoption or help and support for them when they do eventually give birth to these beautiful babies. So Please keep in mind that all this month, we're encouraging you to find a pregnancy resource center to come alongside and support with your prayers by volunteering or by making a financial contribution. Now, before we begin, I should mention that while you will hear a few Christmas references in this letter, we deliberately chose to share it now during Sanctity of Human Life Month. Though the holiday season has in fact passed, the profound truths in this story transcend any particular time of year. So now, let's sit back and listen as Dr. Dobson reads this letter out loud on this special edition of Family Talk.
SPEAKER 01 :
And read the inspiring words of Dr. Frederick Loomis. This obstetrician's story is included in an outstanding collection of writings entitled Christmas in My Heart, compiled by Dr. Joe Wheeler. If this little piece doesn't light your fire, you have wet wood. These are Dr. Loomis' own words recalling the delivery of a baby many years ago before cesarean procedures were commonly used to rescue infants at risk. He called his story The Tiny Foot. And this is what he said. One month before her baby was due, her routine examination showed that her baby was in a breech position. As a rule, the baby's head is in the lower part of the uterus for months before delivery, not because it is heavier and sinks in the surrounding fluid, but simply because it fits more comfortably in that position. There is no routine spontaneous turning of all babies at the 7th or 8th month, as is so generally supposed. But the occasional baby found in the breech position in the last month not infrequently changes to the normal vertex position with the head down by the time it is ready to be born, so that only about one baby in 25 is born in the breech position. This is fortunate as the death rate of breech babies is comparatively high because of the difficulty in delivering the aftercoming head and the imperative need of delivering it rather quickly after the body is born. At that moment, the cord becomes compressed between the baby's hard little head and the mother's bony pelvis. When no oxygen reaches the baby's bloodstream, it inevitably dies in a few short minutes. Everyone in the delivery room is tense except the mother herself in a breech delivery, especially if it is a first baby when the difficulty is greater. The mother is usually quietly asleep or almost so. The case I was speaking of was a complete breech. the baby's legs and feet being folded under it, tailor fashion, in contrast to the frank breach in which the thighs and legs are folded back on the baby's body like a jackknife, the little rear end backing its way into the world first of all. The hardest thing for the attending doctor to do with any breach delivery is to keep his hands away from it until the natural forces of expulsion have thoroughly dilated the firm maternal structures that delay its progress. I waited as patiently as I could, sending frequent messages to the excited family in the corridor outside. At last the time had come, and I gently drew down one little foot." I grasped the other, but for some reason I could not understand. It would not come down beside the first one. I pulled again, gently enough, but with a little force, with light pressure on the abdomen from above by my assisting nurse, and the baby's body moved down just enough for me to see that it was a little girl. And then, to my consternation, I saw that the other foot would never be beside the first one. The entire thigh from the hip to the knee was missing, and that one foot could never reach below the opposite knee. And a baby girl was to suffer this, a curious defect that I had never seen before, nor have I since. There followed the hardest struggle I have ever had with myself. I knew what a dreadful effect it would have upon the unstable nervous system of the mother. I felt sure that the family would almost certainly impoverish itself in taking the child to every famous orthopedist in the world whose achievements might offer a ray of hope. Most of all, I saw this little girl sitting sadly by herself while other girls laughed and danced and ran and played. And then I suddenly realized that there was something that would save every pang but one. And that one thing was in my power. One breech baby in ten dies in delivery because it is not delivered rapidly enough. And now, if only I did not hurry. If I could slow my hand, I could make myself delay those few short moments. It would not be an easy delivery anyway. No one in all this world would ever know. The mother, after the first shock of grief, would probably be glad she had lost a child so sadly handicapped. In a year or two, she would try again, and this tragic fate would never be repeated. Don't bring this suffering upon them, the small voice within me said. This baby has never taken a breath. Don't let her ever take one. You probably can't get it out in time anyway. Don't hurry. Don't be a fool and bring this terrible thing upon them. Suppose your conscience does hurt a little. Can't you stand it better than they can? Maybe your conscience will hurt worse if you do get it out in time. I motioned to the nurse for the warm, sterile towel that is always ready for me in a breech delivery to wrap around the baby's body so that the stimulation of the cold air of the outside world may not induce a sudden expansion of the baby's chest, causing the aspiration of fluid or mucus that might bring death. But this time, the towel was only to conceal from the attending nurses that which my eyes alone had seen." With the touch of the pitiful little foot in my hand, a pang of sorrow for the baby's future swept through me, and my decision was made. I glanced at the clock. Three of the allocated seven or eight minutes had already gone. Every eye in the room was upon me and I could feel the tension in their eagerness to do instantly what I asked, totally unaware of what I was feeling. I hoped they could not possibly detect the tension of my own struggle at that moment. These nurses had seen me deliver dozens of breech babies successfully. Yes, and they had seen me fail, too. Now they were going to see me fail again. For the first time in my medical life, I was deliberately discarding what I had been taught was right for something that I felt sure was better. I slipped my hand beneath the towel to feel the pulsations of the baby's cord, a certain index of its condition. Two to three minutes more would be enough. So that I might seem to be doing something, I drew the baby down a little lower to split out the arms, the usual next step. And as I did so, the little pink foot on the good side bobbed out from its protecting towel and pressed firmly against my slowly moving hand, the hand into whose keeping the safety of the mother and the baby had been entrusted. There was a sudden convulsive movement of the baby's body, an actual feeling of strength and life and vigor. It was too much. I couldn't do it. I delivered the baby with her pitiful little leg. I told the family the next day, and with a catch in my voice, I told the mother. Every foreboding came true. The mother was in a hospital for several months. I saw her once or twice, and she looked like a wraith of her former self. I heard of them indirectly from time to time. They'd been to Rochester, Minnesota. They'd been to Chicago and to Boston. Finally, I lost track of them altogether. As the years went on, I blamed myself bitterly for not having had the strength to yield to my temptation. Through the many years that I have been here, there's developed in our hospital a pretty custom of staging an elaborate Christmas party each year for the employees, the nurses and the doctors on the staff. There's always a beautifully decorated tree on the stage of our little auditorium. The girls spend weeks in preparation. Amen. Amen. Amen. This past year the arrangement was somewhat changed. The tree on one side of the stage had been sprayed with silver paint and was hung with scores of gleaming silver and tinsel ornaments, without a trace of color anywhere and with no lights hung upon the tree itself. It shone but faintly in the dimly lighted auditorium. Every doctor of the staff who could possibly be there was in his seat. The first rows were reserved for the nurses, and in the moment the procession entered, each girl in uniform, each one crowned by her nurse's cap, her badge of office. Around their shoulders were their blue-red cross capes, one end tossed back to show the deep red lining. We rose as one man to do them honor, and as the last one reached her seat and we settled in our places again, the organ began the opening notes of one of the oldest of our carols. Slowly down the middle aisle, marching from the back of the auditorium, came twenty other girls singing softly, our own nurses in full uniform, each holding high a lighted candle, while through the auditorium floated the familiar strains of Silent Night. We were on our feet again instantly. I could have killed anyone who spoke to me then, because I couldn't have answered, and by the time they reached their seats, I couldn't see. And then a great blue floodlight at the back was turned on very slowly, gradually covering the tree with increasing splendor, brighter and brighter until every ornament was almost aflame. On the opposite side of the stage, a curtain was slowly drawn and we saw three lovely young musicians, all in shimmering white evening gowns. They played very softly in unison with the organ, a harp, a cello, and a violin. I'm quite sure I was not the only old sissy there whose eyes were filled with tears. I have always liked the harp, and I love to watch the grace of a skillful player. I was especially fascinated by this young harpist. She played extraordinarily well, as if she loved it. Her slender fingers flickered across the strings, and as the nurses sang, her face, made beautiful by a mass of auburn hair, was upturned, as if the world that moment were a beautiful and holy place." I waited when the short program was over to congratulate the chief nurse on the unusual effects she had arranged. And as I sat alone, there came running down the aisle a woman whom I did not know. She came to me with arms outstretched. "'Oh, you saw her!' she cried. "'You must have recognized your baby. That was my daughter who played the harp, and I saw you watching her.' Don't you remember the little girl who was born with only one good leg 17 years ago? We tried everything at first, but now she has a whole artificial leg on that side. But you would never know it, would you? She can walk, she can swim, she can almost dance.' Best of all, though, through all the years when she couldn't do those things, she learned to use her hands so wonderfully. She's going to be one of the world's great harpists. She enters the university this year at 17. She's my whole life. And now she's so happy. And here she is. As we spoke, this sweet young girl had quietly approached us, her eyes glowing, and now she stood beside me. "'This is your first doctor, my dear, our doctor,' her mother said. Her voice trembled. I could see her literally swept back, as I was, through all the years of heartache to the day when I told her what she had to face. "'He was the first one to tell me about you. He brought you to me.' Impulsively, I took the girl in my arms. Across her warm, young shoulder, I saw the creeping clock of the delivery room of seventeen years before. I lived again those awful moments when her life was in my hand, when I had decided on deliberate infanticide. I held her away from me and I looked at her. You never will know, my dear, I said. You never will know, nor will anyone else in all the world, just what tonight has meant to me. Go back to your harp for a moment, please, and play Silent Night for me alone. I have a load on my shoulders that no one has ever seen, a load that only you can take away. Her mother sat beside me and quietly took my hand. as her daughter played. Perhaps she knew what was on my mind. And as the last strains of Silent Night, Holy Night faded again, I think I found the answer and the comfort. I had waited for so long. I read Dr. Luma's story at dawn this morning as tears streamed down my face. When Shirley awoke a few minutes later, I shared it with her, and she quietly dabbed at her eyes with a hanky. We both thought of the 30 million unborn babies who, though entirely healthy and brimming with human potential, have been denied the opportunity to live and love and learn. Undoubtedly, among them were future musicians and scientists and teachers and ministers and homemakers who were never given a chance. What a tragic loss to the human family. Dr. Loomis' story also spoke volumes about the worth of every child, especially the handicapped and needy. Jesus once referred to such individuals as the least of these, my brothers. Each of them is precious. Since my years of service on the staff of a large children's hospital, my greatest respect and admiration have been reserved for the mothers and fathers, like those in the story, who have devoted their lives to the task of raising a physically or intellectually challenged boy or girl. If that is your circumstance today, you may not receive the acclaim that you deserve in this life. The media and the world outside may never even know that you're there, but the Lord has seen your sacrifice. If you remain true to your calling, he will say those incredible words on resurrection morning, well done thou good and faithful servant. There's another profound lesson tucked within the story that we've read. It focuses on God's sovereign will, which is preeminent whether or not we understand or agree with it. Dr. Loomis almost overlooked that truth. He apparently concluded that Providence had made a disastrous mistake, tempting him to take matters into his own hands. But there was a purpose, a divine plan unfolding in that delivery room that he failed to comprehend. We simply must not attempt to play God in matters of life and death, which are the exclusive prerogatives of the Creator. Our obligation is to trust Him even when the pieces don't fit. God makes sense even when He doesn't make sense. There's an order, an intelligent design to the universe, even when everything seems to be swirling out of control. Jesus came to bring life and life more abundantly to whosoever would simply believe on his name. By his advent, by his death 33 years later on a cruel Roman cross, and by his resurrection, we are adopted into his family and given the promise of eternal life. What a blessing! Indeed, every good and perfect gift is linked to that miraculous event in Bethlehem some 2,000 years ago. All the transcendent values in which we believe, including our reverence for human life, find their origins in the words of the Master. Even the story we just read evoked these eternal themes, which is why I shared it with you. I don't know if Dr. Loomis was a believer in the lordship of Jesus Christ, although I think he must have been. His compassion for a tiny, deformed baby certainly reflects the teachings of the one who said to his disciples, Suffer the little children to come unto me.
SPEAKER 02 :
Well, you've been listening to Dr. James Dobson share one of his powerful monthly letters on this edition of Family Talk. And to hear this program again or to share it with someone you love, visit drjamesdobson.org forward slash family talk. Now, as I mentioned at the beginning of our program, this message comes at a particularly meaningful time of year as we observe Sanctity of Human Life Month here at the James Dobson Family Institute. The story we heard today of one doctor's internal struggle and the beautiful outcome of his choice for life touches something deep within all of us. There's something profoundly moving about Dr. Loomis' journey, his initial doubts, his moment of decision, and the joy of seeing that young harpist years later. It speaks to the immeasurable worth of every individual. And I'll see you then. And that's why here at the James Dobson Family Institute, the work of Family Talk remains so crucial. Every day, we strive to defend the sanctity of human life and support those making difficult decisions. We reach out to families facing unexpected pregnancies. We advocate for the unborn and provide resources to those in need. But we can't do this work alone. When you partner with Family Talk, you help us continue bringing these important messages to millions of families all across the nation. Your support enables us to produce programs like the one you heard today. If today's message has touched your heart, we invite you to join us in this ministry. You can make a secure donation online at drjamesdobson.org. You can also call with your gift at 877-732-6825. That's 877-732-6825. We also encourage you to explore the many resources available on our website, including articles and broadcasts about the sanctity of human life. You'll find links to pregnancy resource centers in your area and other ways to get involved in protecting life when you go to drjamesdobson.org. And speaking of new technology, 2025 brings with it the launch of a brand new JDFI multilingual app. We call it the Family app. It's currently available on Apple devices in English and Spanish. It will simply default to your phone's language setting if you're wondering how to set that up. but three additional languages will be released in 2025, as well as an Android version. We're seeking to reach millions of people for the Lord with Dr. Dobson's biblically-based teachings, including a brand new Dobson Marriage Podcast and Dobson Parenting Podcast, and the popular newly remastered Dr. Dobson Minute as well. Now, these can be personalized to your interest, saved in your library, and quickly shared with those you love. So learn more about the new JDFI multilingual app, we call it the Family app, It's now available for Apple devices in the Apple Store. It'll be available in Google Play for Android very, very soon. Well, I'm Roger Marsh, and on behalf of Dr. James Dobson and the whole team here at the JDFI, thanks so much for listening. Be sure to join us again next time right here for another edition of Dr. James Dobson's Family Talk, the voice you trust for the family you love. This has been a presentation of the Dr. James Dobson Family Institute.
In this special edition of Family Talk, we reflect on the sanctity of human life through the touching story of Dr. Frederick Loomis, an obstetrician faced with an unimaginably tough decision. Discover the profound impact of his choice to preserve a life and how that act of compassion and faithfulness reverberates across generations. The episode provides a powerful reminder of the worth of all lives and encourages us to advocate for those facing difficult circumstances, extending compassion and grace whenever possible.
SPEAKER 01 :
Welcome everyone to Family Talk. It's a ministry of the James Dobson Family Institute supported by listeners just like you. I'm Dr. James Dobson and I'm thrilled that you've joined us.
SPEAKER 02 :
Well, welcome to Family Talk, the broadcast ministry of the Dr. James Dobson Family Institute. I'm Roger Marsh, and of course, all throughout the month of January, we are recognizing sanctity of human life here at the JDFI. It's a time when we reflect deeply on the precious gift of life that God has entrusted to us. This past year and a half has brought historic changes that many of us never thought we'd witness in our lifetimes. It was June 24th, 2022, that after nearly 50 years of prayer and dedicated effort from millions of Americans, the U.S. Supreme Court overturned Roe v. Wade in the landmark Dobbs v. Jackson decision. This represented an unprecedented victory for the pro-life movement and opened the door for states to protect unborn children like never before. Yet even as we celebrate this milestone, we know our work in this area is far from complete. Hearts and minds still need to be changed, and women facing difficult circumstances need our support and compassion now more than ever. Well, today here on Family Talk, we're going to share a letter written a few years back by our very own Dr. James Dobson. In it, he shares the story of a doctor faced with an impossible choice in a delivery room many years ago. This account comes from Dr. Frederick Loomis, who practiced medicine in California during a time when medical options were far more limited than they are today. His experience speaks to the profound value of every human life, and perhaps especially when that life doesn't match our expectations of quote-unquote perfect. Now, as Dr. Dobson reads this letter, I encourage you to listen with an open heart. Whether you're driving to work, doing dishes at home, taking a quiet moment for yourself, maybe you're working out at the gym. This story will remind us why we must continue to advocate for the sanctity of human life. It shows us how one decision to protect a vulnerable life can have ripple effects that touch countless others in beautiful and unexpected ways. By the way, I should mention that during Sanctity of Life Month here at the James Dobson Family Institute, We encourage you to be praying for the pregnancy resource centers in your area. If you're looking for access to how you can get a hold of the information as to finding a pregnancy resource center in your area, check out our website at drjamesdobson.org. We'll be happy to... encourage you or call our resource center at 877-732-6825. The pregnancy resource centers are doing the heavy lifting, helping a lot of women who may be considering abortion to know that they have other options, including adoption or help and support for them when they do eventually give birth to these beautiful babies. So Please keep in mind that all this month, we're encouraging you to find a pregnancy resource center to come alongside and support with your prayers by volunteering or by making a financial contribution. Now, before we begin, I should mention that while you will hear a few Christmas references in this letter, we deliberately chose to share it now during Sanctity of Human Life Month. Though the holiday season has in fact passed, the profound truths in this story transcend any particular time of year. So now, let's sit back and listen as Dr. Dobson reads this letter out loud on this special edition of Family Talk.
SPEAKER 01 :
And read the inspiring words of Dr. Frederick Loomis. This obstetrician's story is included in an outstanding collection of writings entitled Christmas in My Heart, compiled by Dr. Joe Wheeler. If this little piece doesn't light your fire, you have wet wood. These are Dr. Loomis' own words recalling the delivery of a baby many years ago before cesarean procedures were commonly used to rescue infants at risk. He called his story The Tiny Foot. And this is what he said. One month before her baby was due, her routine examination showed that her baby was in a breech position. As a rule, the baby's head is in the lower part of the uterus for months before delivery, not because it is heavier and sinks in the surrounding fluid, but simply because it fits more comfortably in that position. There is no routine spontaneous turning of all babies at the 7th or 8th month, as is so generally supposed. But the occasional baby found in the breech position in the last month not infrequently changes to the normal vertex position with the head down by the time it is ready to be born, so that only about one baby in 25 is born in the breech position. This is fortunate as the death rate of breech babies is comparatively high because of the difficulty in delivering the aftercoming head and the imperative need of delivering it rather quickly after the body is born. At that moment, the cord becomes compressed between the baby's hard little head and the mother's bony pelvis. When no oxygen reaches the baby's bloodstream, it inevitably dies in a few short minutes. Everyone in the delivery room is tense except the mother herself in a breech delivery, especially if it is a first baby when the difficulty is greater. The mother is usually quietly asleep or almost so. The case I was speaking of was a complete breech. the baby's legs and feet being folded under it, tailor fashion, in contrast to the frank breach in which the thighs and legs are folded back on the baby's body like a jackknife, the little rear end backing its way into the world first of all. The hardest thing for the attending doctor to do with any breach delivery is to keep his hands away from it until the natural forces of expulsion have thoroughly dilated the firm maternal structures that delay its progress. I waited as patiently as I could, sending frequent messages to the excited family in the corridor outside. At last the time had come, and I gently drew down one little foot." I grasped the other, but for some reason I could not understand. It would not come down beside the first one. I pulled again, gently enough, but with a little force, with light pressure on the abdomen from above by my assisting nurse, and the baby's body moved down just enough for me to see that it was a little girl. And then, to my consternation, I saw that the other foot would never be beside the first one. The entire thigh from the hip to the knee was missing, and that one foot could never reach below the opposite knee. And a baby girl was to suffer this, a curious defect that I had never seen before, nor have I since. There followed the hardest struggle I have ever had with myself. I knew what a dreadful effect it would have upon the unstable nervous system of the mother. I felt sure that the family would almost certainly impoverish itself in taking the child to every famous orthopedist in the world whose achievements might offer a ray of hope. Most of all, I saw this little girl sitting sadly by herself while other girls laughed and danced and ran and played. And then I suddenly realized that there was something that would save every pang but one. And that one thing was in my power. One breech baby in ten dies in delivery because it is not delivered rapidly enough. And now, if only I did not hurry. If I could slow my hand, I could make myself delay those few short moments. It would not be an easy delivery anyway. No one in all this world would ever know. The mother, after the first shock of grief, would probably be glad she had lost a child so sadly handicapped. In a year or two, she would try again, and this tragic fate would never be repeated. Don't bring this suffering upon them, the small voice within me said. This baby has never taken a breath. Don't let her ever take one. You probably can't get it out in time anyway. Don't hurry. Don't be a fool and bring this terrible thing upon them. Suppose your conscience does hurt a little. Can't you stand it better than they can? Maybe your conscience will hurt worse if you do get it out in time. I motioned to the nurse for the warm, sterile towel that is always ready for me in a breech delivery to wrap around the baby's body so that the stimulation of the cold air of the outside world may not induce a sudden expansion of the baby's chest, causing the aspiration of fluid or mucus that might bring death. But this time, the towel was only to conceal from the attending nurses that which my eyes alone had seen." With the touch of the pitiful little foot in my hand, a pang of sorrow for the baby's future swept through me, and my decision was made. I glanced at the clock. Three of the allocated seven or eight minutes had already gone. Every eye in the room was upon me and I could feel the tension in their eagerness to do instantly what I asked, totally unaware of what I was feeling. I hoped they could not possibly detect the tension of my own struggle at that moment. These nurses had seen me deliver dozens of breech babies successfully. Yes, and they had seen me fail, too. Now they were going to see me fail again. For the first time in my medical life, I was deliberately discarding what I had been taught was right for something that I felt sure was better. I slipped my hand beneath the towel to feel the pulsations of the baby's cord, a certain index of its condition. Two to three minutes more would be enough. So that I might seem to be doing something, I drew the baby down a little lower to split out the arms, the usual next step. And as I did so, the little pink foot on the good side bobbed out from its protecting towel and pressed firmly against my slowly moving hand, the hand into whose keeping the safety of the mother and the baby had been entrusted. There was a sudden convulsive movement of the baby's body, an actual feeling of strength and life and vigor. It was too much. I couldn't do it. I delivered the baby with her pitiful little leg. I told the family the next day, and with a catch in my voice, I told the mother. Every foreboding came true. The mother was in a hospital for several months. I saw her once or twice, and she looked like a wraith of her former self. I heard of them indirectly from time to time. They'd been to Rochester, Minnesota. They'd been to Chicago and to Boston. Finally, I lost track of them altogether. As the years went on, I blamed myself bitterly for not having had the strength to yield to my temptation. Through the many years that I have been here, there's developed in our hospital a pretty custom of staging an elaborate Christmas party each year for the employees, the nurses and the doctors on the staff. There's always a beautifully decorated tree on the stage of our little auditorium. The girls spend weeks in preparation. Amen. Amen. Amen. This past year the arrangement was somewhat changed. The tree on one side of the stage had been sprayed with silver paint and was hung with scores of gleaming silver and tinsel ornaments, without a trace of color anywhere and with no lights hung upon the tree itself. It shone but faintly in the dimly lighted auditorium. Every doctor of the staff who could possibly be there was in his seat. The first rows were reserved for the nurses, and in the moment the procession entered, each girl in uniform, each one crowned by her nurse's cap, her badge of office. Around their shoulders were their blue-red cross capes, one end tossed back to show the deep red lining. We rose as one man to do them honor, and as the last one reached her seat and we settled in our places again, the organ began the opening notes of one of the oldest of our carols. Slowly down the middle aisle, marching from the back of the auditorium, came twenty other girls singing softly, our own nurses in full uniform, each holding high a lighted candle, while through the auditorium floated the familiar strains of Silent Night. We were on our feet again instantly. I could have killed anyone who spoke to me then, because I couldn't have answered, and by the time they reached their seats, I couldn't see. And then a great blue floodlight at the back was turned on very slowly, gradually covering the tree with increasing splendor, brighter and brighter until every ornament was almost aflame. On the opposite side of the stage, a curtain was slowly drawn and we saw three lovely young musicians, all in shimmering white evening gowns. They played very softly in unison with the organ, a harp, a cello, and a violin. I'm quite sure I was not the only old sissy there whose eyes were filled with tears. I have always liked the harp, and I love to watch the grace of a skillful player. I was especially fascinated by this young harpist. She played extraordinarily well, as if she loved it. Her slender fingers flickered across the strings, and as the nurses sang, her face, made beautiful by a mass of auburn hair, was upturned, as if the world that moment were a beautiful and holy place." I waited when the short program was over to congratulate the chief nurse on the unusual effects she had arranged. And as I sat alone, there came running down the aisle a woman whom I did not know. She came to me with arms outstretched. "'Oh, you saw her!' she cried. "'You must have recognized your baby. That was my daughter who played the harp, and I saw you watching her.' Don't you remember the little girl who was born with only one good leg 17 years ago? We tried everything at first, but now she has a whole artificial leg on that side. But you would never know it, would you? She can walk, she can swim, she can almost dance.' Best of all, though, through all the years when she couldn't do those things, she learned to use her hands so wonderfully. She's going to be one of the world's great harpists. She enters the university this year at 17. She's my whole life. And now she's so happy. And here she is. As we spoke, this sweet young girl had quietly approached us, her eyes glowing, and now she stood beside me. "'This is your first doctor, my dear, our doctor,' her mother said. Her voice trembled. I could see her literally swept back, as I was, through all the years of heartache to the day when I told her what she had to face. "'He was the first one to tell me about you. He brought you to me.' Impulsively, I took the girl in my arms. Across her warm, young shoulder, I saw the creeping clock of the delivery room of seventeen years before. I lived again those awful moments when her life was in my hand, when I had decided on deliberate infanticide. I held her away from me and I looked at her. You never will know, my dear, I said. You never will know, nor will anyone else in all the world, just what tonight has meant to me. Go back to your harp for a moment, please, and play Silent Night for me alone. I have a load on my shoulders that no one has ever seen, a load that only you can take away. Her mother sat beside me and quietly took my hand. as her daughter played. Perhaps she knew what was on my mind. And as the last strains of Silent Night, Holy Night faded again, I think I found the answer and the comfort. I had waited for so long. I read Dr. Luma's story at dawn this morning as tears streamed down my face. When Shirley awoke a few minutes later, I shared it with her, and she quietly dabbed at her eyes with a hanky. We both thought of the 30 million unborn babies who, though entirely healthy and brimming with human potential, have been denied the opportunity to live and love and learn. Undoubtedly, among them were future musicians and scientists and teachers and ministers and homemakers who were never given a chance. What a tragic loss to the human family. Dr. Loomis' story also spoke volumes about the worth of every child, especially the handicapped and needy. Jesus once referred to such individuals as the least of these, my brothers. Each of them is precious. Since my years of service on the staff of a large children's hospital, my greatest respect and admiration have been reserved for the mothers and fathers, like those in the story, who have devoted their lives to the task of raising a physically or intellectually challenged boy or girl. If that is your circumstance today, you may not receive the acclaim that you deserve in this life. The media and the world outside may never even know that you're there, but the Lord has seen your sacrifice. If you remain true to your calling, he will say those incredible words on resurrection morning, well done thou good and faithful servant. There's another profound lesson tucked within the story that we've read. It focuses on God's sovereign will, which is preeminent whether or not we understand or agree with it. Dr. Loomis almost overlooked that truth. He apparently concluded that Providence had made a disastrous mistake, tempting him to take matters into his own hands. But there was a purpose, a divine plan unfolding in that delivery room that he failed to comprehend. We simply must not attempt to play God in matters of life and death, which are the exclusive prerogatives of the Creator. Our obligation is to trust Him even when the pieces don't fit. God makes sense even when He doesn't make sense. There's an order, an intelligent design to the universe, even when everything seems to be swirling out of control. Jesus came to bring life and life more abundantly to whosoever would simply believe on his name. By his advent, by his death 33 years later on a cruel Roman cross, and by his resurrection, we are adopted into his family and given the promise of eternal life. What a blessing! Indeed, every good and perfect gift is linked to that miraculous event in Bethlehem some 2,000 years ago. All the transcendent values in which we believe, including our reverence for human life, find their origins in the words of the Master. Even the story we just read evoked these eternal themes, which is why I shared it with you. I don't know if Dr. Loomis was a believer in the lordship of Jesus Christ, although I think he must have been. His compassion for a tiny, deformed baby certainly reflects the teachings of the one who said to his disciples, Suffer the little children to come unto me.
SPEAKER 02 :
Well, you've been listening to Dr. James Dobson share one of his powerful monthly letters on this edition of Family Talk. And to hear this program again or to share it with someone you love, visit drjamesdobson.org forward slash family talk. Now, as I mentioned at the beginning of our program, this message comes at a particularly meaningful time of year as we observe Sanctity of Human Life Month here at the James Dobson Family Institute. The story we heard today of one doctor's internal struggle and the beautiful outcome of his choice for life touches something deep within all of us. There's something profoundly moving about Dr. Loomis' journey, his initial doubts, his moment of decision, and the joy of seeing that young harpist years later. It speaks to the immeasurable worth of every individual. And I'll see you then. And that's why here at the James Dobson Family Institute, the work of Family Talk remains so crucial. Every day, we strive to defend the sanctity of human life and support those making difficult decisions. We reach out to families facing unexpected pregnancies. We advocate for the unborn and provide resources to those in need. But we can't do this work alone. When you partner with Family Talk, you help us continue bringing these important messages to millions of families all across the nation. Your support enables us to produce programs like the one you heard today. If today's message has touched your heart, we invite you to join us in this ministry. You can make a secure donation online at drjamesdobson.org. You can also call with your gift at 877-732-6825. That's 877-732-6825. We also encourage you to explore the many resources available on our website, including articles and broadcasts about the sanctity of human life. You'll find links to pregnancy resource centers in your area and other ways to get involved in protecting life when you go to drjamesdobson.org. And speaking of new technology, 2025 brings with it the launch of a brand new JDFI multilingual app. We call it the Family app. It's currently available on Apple devices in English and Spanish. It will simply default to your phone's language setting if you're wondering how to set that up. but three additional languages will be released in 2025, as well as an Android version. We're seeking to reach millions of people for the Lord with Dr. Dobson's biblically-based teachings, including a brand new Dobson Marriage Podcast and Dobson Parenting Podcast, and the popular newly remastered Dr. Dobson Minute as well. Now, these can be personalized to your interest, saved in your library, and quickly shared with those you love. So learn more about the new JDFI multilingual app, we call it the Family app, It's now available for Apple devices in the Apple Store. It'll be available in Google Play for Android very, very soon. Well, I'm Roger Marsh, and on behalf of Dr. James Dobson and the whole team here at the JDFI, thanks so much for listening. Be sure to join us again next time right here for another edition of Dr. James Dobson's Family Talk, the voice you trust for the family you love. This has been a presentation of the Dr. James Dobson Family Institute.
In this heartfelt episode, Dr. James Dobson and Dr. R.T. Kendall sit down to explore the profound topic of forgiveness. Many struggle with the idea of forgiving those who have wronged them deeply, and today, Dr. Kendall provides keen insights into how true forgiveness can set us free from emotional baggage. We delve into common misconceptions about forgiveness and outline what it truly means to let go without excusing harmful actions.
SPEAKER 03 :
You're listening to Family Talk, the radio broadcasting division of the James Dobson Family Institute. I am that James Dobson, and I'm so pleased that you've joined us today.
SPEAKER 01 :
Well, welcome back for another edition of Family Talk. I'm Roger Marsh. Let me ask you a question. Have you ever caught yourself saying, you know, I just can't forgive him, not after what he did to me or what she said to me? We all know how deep emotional and physical scars can run. and how hard it can be to move forward once those wounds have been, well, born. Those wounds from betrayal or abuse or even abandonment can feel almost impossible to overcome. And yet, Jesus challenges us to do something remarkable, to let go of keeping score of the wrongs that others have committed against us. Well, today here on Family Talk, we're going to continue a powerful conversation featuring Dr. James Dobson and his dear friend, Dr. R.T. Kendall, talking about finding true forgiveness. Dr. Kendall knows this topic intimately, having counseled countless people struggling to forgive others over his decades of ministry. And today, our guest will be tackling the myths we believe about forgiveness. He'll also show us why holding on to bitterness can actually be destructive to our physical lives as well as our spiritual growth. Dr. James Dobson Dr. R.T. Kendall served as pastor of Westminster Chapel for 25 years. He holds four advanced degrees and has written over 60 books. His Total Forgiveness Trilogy, which we'll be discussing today, has helped countless of people find freedom through genuine forgiveness, not by minimizing their pain, but by showing them God's path to true healing. On our last program, Dr. Kendall shared his powerful seven steps to total forgiveness, explaining that true forgiveness must happen in our hearts rather than necessarily being expressed to those who hurt us. On today's Family Talk program, he'll tackle the common misconceptions that many of us have about forgiveness, helping us to understand what forgiveness is and maybe, more importantly, what it isn't. He'll show us how forgiveness sets both the forgiver as well as the forgiven free. Now, let's join Dr. James Dobson and his guest, Dr. R.T. Kendall, for the conclusion of this classic conversation on forgiveness right here on Family Talk.
SPEAKER 03 :
You talked in your book about what forgiveness is not. There's some concepts in there that do not represent true forgiveness. Why don't we start our discussion today with you describing those aspects of forgiveness that are sometimes confused with the meaning of the word.
SPEAKER 02 :
Well, the first would be approval of what they did. In other words, the fact that you forgive them doesn't mean you approve. Someone may think, oh, he let me off the hook. It doesn't mean that what you did was okay. You certainly don't approve it. Jesus forgave the woman that was caught in the act of adultery. But then he went on to say, leave your life of sin. So you don't approve just because you forgive.
SPEAKER 03 :
The second one was excusing what they did. Forgiveness is not excusing what they did.
SPEAKER 02 :
Yes. You don't improvise for them and say, well, now here's why they did it. I excuse them. It's okay. That's not what we mean by total forgiveness. Total forgiveness is when you know exactly what they did and you still forgive them. Sometimes people think, well, I just put it out of their mind what they did. That's repressing and that's dangerous. Yeah.
SPEAKER 03 :
Number three is justifying what they did. That's pretty much the same thing, but explain the difference.
SPEAKER 02 :
Well, it means to show a person or a statement or act to be right or just or reasonable. There's no way that evil can be justified. God will never call something that is evil right, and he doesn't require us to do so.
SPEAKER 03 :
And number four is pardoning what they did.
SPEAKER 02 :
Well, I would define pardon as a legal transaction that releases an offender from the consequences of their action, such as a penalty for a sentence. And this is why we do not ask that the guilty rapist be exempt from punishment. Such a person needs to pay their debt to society, and society must be protected from people like that.
SPEAKER 03 :
Number five surprised me, and it dealt with reconciliation. And you said there forgiveness is not necessarily the same thing as reconciliation. You can forgive without reconciling. Explain how.
SPEAKER 02 :
Well, let's say a person has been unfaithful, and it was your best friend. You forgive them, but it doesn't mean you're going to be best friends after that. Or take a person who's a child molester, and this person has been forgiven, but I don't know that you would offer them a Sunday school class. And so that's the principle. Reconciliation means everything's going to be just as it was. Not necessarily. The key is whether there's bitterness. And there can be total forgiveness, but not necessarily reconciliation.
SPEAKER 03 :
Reconciliation also implies an equal forgiveness on both sides. And you can only handle one of the two. You're not responsible for what the other person thinks or feels.
SPEAKER 02 :
There can be mutual total forgiveness, but it doesn't mean that you're going to be each other's best friend or that you want to go on holiday with them.
SPEAKER 03 :
Hmm. Number six is forgiveness is not denying what they did.
SPEAKER 02 :
You see, to deny, as I said a while ago, is kind of like being in denial, repressing. I've known of people who said, you know, I don't believe they really did that to me. But I say, but they did. They did. The verse that you quoted on the previous broadcast, love keeps no record of wrongs. The Greek clearly shows that you recognize there was wrong. The wrong is not denied, but you decide to tear up the record.
SPEAKER 03 :
Well, there's several other concepts there, and in the interest of time, let me go to number eight, which has to do with forgetting. You can't necessarily forget. Many people say forgive and forget as though they're one and the same thing. You can't play games with yourself. You do know what they did.
SPEAKER 02 :
You cannot forget. It is said that, well, God forgives and forgets. Look here, he does know what he's forgiven us of. And you can never forget what they did. But the brilliance in total forgiveness is when you know what they've done, you're not living in denial. You have remembered it, but you do forgive them. And it is a sincere, genuine forgiveness.
SPEAKER 03 :
The Scripture says our sins will be remembered against us no more. It's not that they won't be remembered in the mind of God. He knows everything. But it will not be remembered against us anymore. R.T., let's bring this down to an individual situation and try to address those who are listening to us with very, very specific reasons for the anger and the bitterness that's inside. Let's make it specific. Let's suppose we're talking to a woman who's 30 years of age who was abused physically by her father. Let's suppose she was beaten physically. Let's suppose that both parents were abusive. Maybe they were alcoholics and they subjected that child to unimaginable punishment and ridicule. And she's now 30 and that still burns in her heart. Talk to her. Because there are people, I'm sure, who find themselves exactly in the same situation I just described.
SPEAKER 02 :
Well, the first thing I would say to her is that I do understand. I really understand. And although I haven't been through what you've been through, my heart aches for you. And I don't know how you've endured it. I don't know how you stand it. And I am sorry for what you are suffering. I can only say that there is a way whereby you this evil can be turned into good and you can do what very few people do and that is so to get over it that you actually pray for them and pray for that person to be blessed and the result is that you are set free and you begin to see for the first time that the bitterness, however justified it seemed at the time, that bitterness was eating on your soul like a cancer and you were impoverished to the degree you didn't forgive. And I have seen it in my ministry. When people do forgive, the freedom is so wonderful. They say to me, I never dreamed it would be so good. It's wonderful. It's tremendous. And what it does for you is is the thing. So I understand why a person doesn't want to do it, and I don't point the finger, and I don't say, shame on you for not forgiving, because it's the hardest thing in the world. But I would want to motivate them for them to see how good it's going to be if you do it. Will the Lord meet you halfway?
SPEAKER 03 :
Will He take a step toward you each time you take a step toward Him in this regard? Will he lead you in trying to deal with what at this moment seems impossible?
SPEAKER 02 :
I will say yes to that. I don't think anybody's ever asked me that question before. But yes. Because he's touched with a feeling of our weaknesses. He's not there looking down, moralizing us. He remembers that we're dust. Oh, listen. And... At the right hand of the Father, where he is our intercessor, he has never forgotten what it was like when he was on this earth. So he's touched with a feeling of our weaknesses. And I would say every step we take, God will witness. And you can almost hear him saying, good, good, go on. And one works through it. And I don't say you'll come to it by tomorrow afternoon. Or that it will be easy. It is not easy. It is the hardest thing one ever has to do. I don't think there's a greater challenge in this world.
SPEAKER 03 :
You described in general terms your own experience with anger and bitterness against a person who had harmed you in the past and that it turned out to be one of the greatest victories of your life. When in that process did you begin to feel that? that you were doing what was right and that the Lord was accepting your offering at this point?
SPEAKER 02 :
Okay. The answer is when I began to pray for them and when I met it, there was an inner witness of peace and joy. It was so good and it was so wonderful. Speaking personally, I want a greater anointing on my preaching than anything.
SPEAKER 03 :
Mm-hmm.
SPEAKER 02 :
And the thought of being able to preach with more power and to have greater insight was so wonderful. And then when I'd start getting bitter and thinking about what they did, it was as though everything was shut down. But when I forgave, it was as though I could begin to see things. And by the way, it works in marriage. I'll tell you a story. One week in London, I was preaching all over England that week, and I hadn't got to prepare a sermon. And usually, when I was at Westminster Chapel, I'd start a Sunday morning sermon on Monday morning. But it was now Saturday, and I'd got nowhere. And my wife and I got into an argument that Saturday morning. And it was pretty awful. And I went to my chair and I started to say, Lord, now give me something for tomorrow. I got nothing. It was 11 o'clock. Lord, please, please help me. Nothing. One o'clock. Nothing. Four o'clock. Lord, what I'm going to say tomorrow is going to go all over the world. You've got to help me. It was as though the Lord said, really? You know, he won't bend the rules for any of us. I went to Louise. I looked at her, and I said, I'm sorry. It's all my fault. We hugged. We kissed. I went to the same chair, same pen, paper, same Bible. In 45 minutes, I had everything I needed for the next day. What made the difference? You see, the spirit came down. That's what I'm saying. The benefits of this. So it's not just that one case that brought about the book. It's something you have to live. And every day or two, there's something that we're going to... have to confront somebody who says something. And why did they say that? You've got to live this life 24 hours a day.
SPEAKER 03 :
Would you say that for those out there who feel they've lost the joy of their relationship with the Lord, that they might start by looking at their relationship with others and say, Lord, is it here?
SPEAKER 02 :
Is this why I'm dry as a bone? I'm going to tell you, you can have people pray for you. You can go to the altar or you can go to communion. But if you are bitter before you go, you're going to be bitter when you come back unless you deal with it. And if it happens in your heart, the joy, well, it's incalculable. The benefits are wonderful.
SPEAKER 03 :
To repeat what you said yesterday, which is a fundamental concept here, is that you don't necessarily have to go tell the person that you forgive them because they may not be ready to receive it and that may not be what's required.
SPEAKER 02 :
Well, nine out of ten people I've ever had to forgive – You could put them under a lie detector and they don't think they've done anything. And you see, that shows that I've probably hurt people and I don't know it. I've had people come to me and say, I've forgiven you for that. I say, whatever did I do? And I sincerely didn't know I'd hurt people. There are people that have hurt me. They don't know it. And so it's counterproductive. I sometimes say when I preach this sermon, I say, now look, if you're convicted of this sermon, when the service is over, don't go up to the person and say, I forgive you. Because they're going to say, for what? For what? And you're going to say, well, you know. And they're going to say, well, I don't. And then you're going to say, well, you should. And now you've got a fight on your hands. It's got to happen in the heart. The only time you say I forgive you is when you know they want to hear it so much.
SPEAKER 03 :
Then you tell them. You know, when I was in college, I went to a Christian college. We had chapel five days a week. And I remember an occasion or two where during revival or whenever it was, a student would stand up before the— 1500 people who were there and shout out loud enough for everybody to hear. I just want Jack to know that I have been angry at him and he's done all these terrible things to me and I forgive him. Embarrassed Jack half to death. It was an inappropriate thing to do. And that's not what we are required to do.
SPEAKER 02 :
It's got to happen in the heart. you are in a position like God is with us. You know what it's like when two of your children aren't speaking to each other. Our Heavenly Father feels that way when two of us aren't speaking to each other. And so we set Him free when we forgive one another. And what you must do with children is not to take sides, but say, well, I can see why you are hurt. I can see why you are hurt. But you must forgive. Yeah, as a parent, I would definitely say that. And I have to tell you this. I had the greatest parents in the world. I had the most wonderful father. My earliest memory of my father is seeing him on his knees for 30 minutes. He did not think of going to work without 30 minutes on his knees every morning. But for some reason, this teaching... I wasn't taught it at home. I'm telling you, it's a teaching that somehow, we all know it's there, but it gets swept under the carpet when it comes to application.
SPEAKER 03 :
R.T., the truth of the universe is in this concept and in this book because you took it right out of Scripture. And I would like to close today. our program today by asking you to pray for those out there who are bitter. They've been bitter for years and it has just been a bile that has affected them for so many years and they just can't seem to get beyond it. They can't forgive. Will you pray a prayer for us now? Pray for all of us, for all of us need forgiveness. to be able to forgive. It happens to everybody. And it happens regularly because God made us very sensitive people. Now you talk about the Holy Spirit being likened unto a dove. We are likened unto sheep. And we are easily led and easily influenced and easily hurt. And all of us get wounded by the casual things that people say around us when they don't even know that they've said anything that has hurt us. And so it's a common human experience and a difficult one to get beyond. And I would like you to pray for those who are going to try to do what you have said today.
SPEAKER 02 :
just before i pray could i just say one thing imagine the person out there that's hurt more than anybody else who feels that he has the most he has to forgive because he would say or she would say you don't know what i've been through my reply is the deeper the hurt the greater the sense of god's blessing if you can forgive that There are people around you that don't have the potential blessing you've got because they don't have to forgive what you have to forgive. But when you have been through what you've been through and still forgive, the power of the Spirit will be double, treble in your case. Pray for us. Heavenly Father, we thank you that you are touched with the feeling of our weaknesses. You know our frame. you remember that we are dust. And I pray for that person who's out there right now who has been so hurt, so betrayed. abused, the object of infidelity, who has been lied about, and people believe the lies, who has been hurt by a friend. And I pray for healing in that person at this very moment. And I pray that your Holy Spirit will come into that person's room or car or wherever they are at this moment, and you will enable that person to forgive Totally. To come to the place that he or she will stop talking about what they did and just cast their burden upon the Lord and forgive as you have forgiven us because you will not tell what you've forgiven us for. Enable that person to set that other person free, that one will not try to intimidate that we will not let them feel guilty, that we will let them save face and protect them from their darkest secret, and that we will accept it as something we must do as long as we live. Thank you that you understand this and that you don't moralize us. But you stoop to where we are and say, look, I forgive you. Set that person free. And enable us all right now to pray as Jesus did on the cross. Father, forgive them. They don't know what they're doing. And we thank you for the joy and the peace that will come. Heal that marriage. Heal that relationship. Set that person free. And may healing come in these moments. In Jesus' name, amen.
SPEAKER 03 :
Amen. What a beautiful prayer. Dr. R.T., I don't want to patronize you or flatter you, but your book, Total Forgiveness, is one of the most important books that I've read. in recent years. It was number one in the UK in sales. And it's been a bestseller here. And everybody ought to read this book. Everybody. I think everybody needs to at least examine themselves and see if there's something here that the Lord would have them do. And this book would be a real good place to start. Get it and read it and then apply it. And R.T., thank you for your influence in my life and for your ministry through the years. God has used you mightily, and I am just grateful for your friendship, and I appreciate your being with us. Well, thank you for having me. God bless you.
SPEAKER 01 :
Authentic forgiveness is truly one of life's toughest mountains to climb. Amen? It's more than the simple act of saying, I forgive you, but rather a transformative journey that opens the door to our own freedom and spiritual renewal. Fred, you're listening to Family Talk in a classic conversation featuring Dr. James Dobson and his dear friend, Dr. R.T. Kendall. The wisdom Dr. Kendall has shared these past couple of programs has given us all a fresh perspective on what true forgiveness really looks like, and perhaps more importantly, how it can set us free. His insights remind us that forgiveness isn't just about the past, it's about creating a better future for ourselves and also for those around us. Now, if you missed any part of the conversation or you know someone who would really benefit from hearing it, you can find both episodes online at drjamesdobson.org forward slash family talk. That's drjamesdobson.org forward slash family talk. Remember, you can also access these programs on your smartphone using the Dr. James Dobson Family app. And speaking of apps, the brand new JDFI Multilingual app is now available for those who use Apple products and will soon be available for Android users as well. You can be encouraged with practical daily messages that prioritize God and family in every area of your life. The new Multilingual app comes. gives you convenient access to Dr. Dobson's biblically-based teachings, including brand-new podcast episodes on marriage and parenting, the Dobson Marriage Podcast and the Dobson Parenting Podcast. In addition, you'll find the popular, newly remastered Dr. Dobson Minute. Now, these can be personalized to your interest, saved in your library, and quickly shared with those you love. Now, the Family app is currently available on Apple devices in English and Spanish, and to get those settings straight, it will just default to your phone's language setting. There are three additional languages that are in the works, as well as an Android version, which I'm happy about, and those will be released later in 2025. Through this new JDFI multilingual app, we are seeking to reach millions of people all over the world with the good news of the gospel and strength for the marriage and parenting journeys. For more information, simply go to drjamesdobson.org, or you can find the Dr. James Dobson Family Multilingual App in the Apple Store right now. And by the way, if you're looking for even more great content from Family Talk, our 2024 Best of Broadcast collection is still available. This carefully curated six-CD set features life-changing conversations with trusted experts and inspiring testimonies of God's faithfulness. We'll be happy to send you one as our way of thanking you for your gift of any amount in support of the JDFI today. So go online and request your copy at drjamesdobson.org or give us a call at 877-732-6825. Now, if you prefer, you can also send your gift through the mail. Our ministry mailing address is Dr. James Dobson's Family Talk, P.O. Box 39000, Colorado Springs, Colorado, the zip code 80949. Well, I'm Roger Marsh. So glad that you've been with us today. On behalf of Dr. Dobson and the entire team here at the JDFI, thanks so much for listening and for standing with us in prayer. Be sure to join us again next time right here for another edition of Dr. James Dobson's family talk the voice you trust for the family you love this has been a presentation of the dr james dobson family institute
Join us as Dr. James Dobson welcomes Dr. R.T. Kendall to discuss the liberating and challenging journey of forgiveness. They explore the dangerous myths surrounding forgiveness and emphasize its immense power to transform our lives. With practical examples and heartfelt anecdotes, Dr. Kendall illustrates why holding onto bitterness can be detrimental to both our physical and spiritual well-being. Don’t miss this profound conversation on how to achieve total forgiveness, freeing both ourselves and those we need to forgive.
SPEAKER 03 :
You're listening to Family Talk, the radio broadcasting division of the James Dobson Family Institute. I am that James Dobson, and I'm so pleased that you've joined us today.
SPEAKER 01 :
Well, welcome back for another edition of Family Talk. I'm Roger Marsh. Let me ask you a question. Have you ever caught yourself saying, you know, I just can't forgive him, not after what he did to me or what she said to me? We all know how deep emotional and physical scars can run. and how hard it can be to move forward once those wounds have been, well, born. Those wounds from betrayal or abuse or even abandonment can feel almost impossible to overcome. And yet, Jesus challenges us to do something remarkable, to let go of keeping score of the wrongs that others have committed against us. Well, today here on Family Talk, we're going to continue a powerful conversation featuring Dr. James Dobson and his dear friend, Dr. R.T. Kendall, talking about finding true forgiveness. Dr. Kendall knows this topic intimately, having counseled countless people struggling to forgive others over his decades of ministry. And today, our guest will be tackling the myths we believe about forgiveness. He'll also show us why holding on to bitterness can actually be destructive to our physical lives as well as our spiritual growth. Dr. James Dobson Dr. R.T. Kendall served as pastor of Westminster Chapel for 25 years. He holds four advanced degrees and has written over 60 books. His Total Forgiveness Trilogy, which we'll be discussing today, has helped countless of people find freedom through genuine forgiveness, not by minimizing their pain, but by showing them God's path to true healing. On our last program, Dr. Kendall shared his powerful seven steps to total forgiveness, explaining that true forgiveness must happen in our hearts rather than necessarily being expressed to those who hurt us. On today's Family Talk program, he'll tackle the common misconceptions that many of us have about forgiveness, helping us to understand what forgiveness is and maybe, more importantly, what it isn't. He'll show us how forgiveness sets both the forgiver as well as the forgiven free. Now, let's join Dr. James Dobson and his guest, Dr. R.T. Kendall, for the conclusion of this classic conversation on forgiveness right here on Family Talk.
SPEAKER 03 :
You talked in your book about what forgiveness is not. There's some concepts in there that do not represent true forgiveness. Why don't we start our discussion today with you describing those aspects of forgiveness that are sometimes confused with the meaning of the word.
SPEAKER 02 :
Well, the first would be approval of what they did. In other words, the fact that you forgive them doesn't mean you approve. Someone may think, oh, he let me off the hook. It doesn't mean that what you did was okay. You certainly don't approve it. Jesus forgave the woman that was caught in the act of adultery. But then he went on to say, leave your life of sin. So you don't approve just because you forgive.
SPEAKER 03 :
The second one was excusing what they did. Forgiveness is not excusing what they did.
SPEAKER 02 :
Yes. You don't improvise for them and say, well, now here's why they did it. I excuse them. It's okay. That's not what we mean by total forgiveness. Total forgiveness is when you know exactly what they did and you still forgive them. Sometimes people think, well, I just put it out of their mind what they did. That's repressing and that's dangerous. Yeah.
SPEAKER 03 :
Number three is justifying what they did. That's pretty much the same thing, but explain the difference.
SPEAKER 02 :
Well, it means to show a person or a statement or act to be right or just or reasonable. There's no way that evil can be justified. God will never call something that is evil right, and he doesn't require us to do so.
SPEAKER 03 :
And number four is pardoning what they did.
SPEAKER 02 :
Well, I would define pardon as a legal transaction that releases an offender from the consequences of their action, such as a penalty for a sentence. And this is why we do not ask that the guilty rapist be exempt from punishment. Such a person needs to pay their debt to society, and society must be protected from people like that.
SPEAKER 03 :
Number five surprised me, and it dealt with reconciliation. And you said there forgiveness is not necessarily the same thing as reconciliation. You can forgive without reconciling. Explain how.
SPEAKER 02 :
Well, let's say a person has been unfaithful, and it was your best friend. You forgive them, but it doesn't mean you're going to be best friends after that. Or take a person who's a child molester, and this person has been forgiven, but I don't know that you would offer them a Sunday school class. And so that's the principle. Reconciliation means everything's going to be just as it was. Not necessarily. The key is whether there's bitterness. And there can be total forgiveness, but not necessarily reconciliation.
SPEAKER 03 :
Reconciliation also implies an equal forgiveness on both sides. And you can only handle one of the two. You're not responsible for what the other person thinks or feels.
SPEAKER 02 :
There can be mutual total forgiveness, but it doesn't mean that you're going to be each other's best friend or that you want to go on holiday with them.
SPEAKER 03 :
Hmm. Number six is forgiveness is not denying what they did.
SPEAKER 02 :
You see, to deny, as I said a while ago, is kind of like being in denial, repressing. I've known of people who said, you know, I don't believe they really did that to me. But I say, but they did. They did. The verse that you quoted on the previous broadcast, love keeps no record of wrongs. The Greek clearly shows that you recognize there was wrong. The wrong is not denied, but you decide to tear up the record.
SPEAKER 03 :
Well, there's several other concepts there, and in the interest of time, let me go to number eight, which has to do with forgetting. You can't necessarily forget. Many people say forgive and forget as though they're one and the same thing. You can't play games with yourself. You do know what they did.
SPEAKER 02 :
You cannot forget. It is said that, well, God forgives and forgets. Look here, he does know what he's forgiven us of. And you can never forget what they did. But the brilliance in total forgiveness is when you know what they've done, you're not living in denial. You have remembered it, but you do forgive them. And it is a sincere, genuine forgiveness.
SPEAKER 03 :
The Scripture says our sins will be remembered against us no more. It's not that they won't be remembered in the mind of God. He knows everything. But it will not be remembered against us anymore. R.T., let's bring this down to an individual situation and try to address those who are listening to us with very, very specific reasons for the anger and the bitterness that's inside. Let's make it specific. Let's suppose we're talking to a woman who's 30 years of age who was abused physically by her father. Let's suppose she was beaten physically. Let's suppose that both parents were abusive. Maybe they were alcoholics and they subjected that child to unimaginable punishment and ridicule. And she's now 30 and that still burns in her heart. Talk to her. Because there are people, I'm sure, who find themselves exactly in the same situation I just described.
SPEAKER 02 :
Well, the first thing I would say to her is that I do understand. I really understand. And although I haven't been through what you've been through, my heart aches for you. And I don't know how you've endured it. I don't know how you stand it. And I am sorry for what you are suffering. I can only say that there is a way whereby you this evil can be turned into good and you can do what very few people do and that is so to get over it that you actually pray for them and pray for that person to be blessed and the result is that you are set free and you begin to see for the first time that the bitterness, however justified it seemed at the time, that bitterness was eating on your soul like a cancer and you were impoverished to the degree you didn't forgive. And I have seen it in my ministry. When people do forgive, the freedom is so wonderful. They say to me, I never dreamed it would be so good. It's wonderful. It's tremendous. And what it does for you is is the thing. So I understand why a person doesn't want to do it, and I don't point the finger, and I don't say, shame on you for not forgiving, because it's the hardest thing in the world. But I would want to motivate them for them to see how good it's going to be if you do it. Will the Lord meet you halfway?
SPEAKER 03 :
Will He take a step toward you each time you take a step toward Him in this regard? Will he lead you in trying to deal with what at this moment seems impossible?
SPEAKER 02 :
I will say yes to that. I don't think anybody's ever asked me that question before. But yes. Because he's touched with a feeling of our weaknesses. He's not there looking down, moralizing us. He remembers that we're dust. Oh, listen. And... At the right hand of the Father, where he is our intercessor, he has never forgotten what it was like when he was on this earth. So he's touched with a feeling of our weaknesses. And I would say every step we take, God will witness. And you can almost hear him saying, good, good, go on. And one works through it. And I don't say you'll come to it by tomorrow afternoon. Or that it will be easy. It is not easy. It is the hardest thing one ever has to do. I don't think there's a greater challenge in this world.
SPEAKER 03 :
You described in general terms your own experience with anger and bitterness against a person who had harmed you in the past and that it turned out to be one of the greatest victories of your life. When in that process did you begin to feel that? that you were doing what was right and that the Lord was accepting your offering at this point?
SPEAKER 02 :
Okay. The answer is when I began to pray for them and when I met it, there was an inner witness of peace and joy. It was so good and it was so wonderful. Speaking personally, I want a greater anointing on my preaching than anything.
SPEAKER 03 :
Mm-hmm.
SPEAKER 02 :
And the thought of being able to preach with more power and to have greater insight was so wonderful. And then when I'd start getting bitter and thinking about what they did, it was as though everything was shut down. But when I forgave, it was as though I could begin to see things. And by the way, it works in marriage. I'll tell you a story. One week in London, I was preaching all over England that week, and I hadn't got to prepare a sermon. And usually, when I was at Westminster Chapel, I'd start a Sunday morning sermon on Monday morning. But it was now Saturday, and I'd got nowhere. And my wife and I got into an argument that Saturday morning. And it was pretty awful. And I went to my chair and I started to say, Lord, now give me something for tomorrow. I got nothing. It was 11 o'clock. Lord, please, please help me. Nothing. One o'clock. Nothing. Four o'clock. Lord, what I'm going to say tomorrow is going to go all over the world. You've got to help me. It was as though the Lord said, really? You know, he won't bend the rules for any of us. I went to Louise. I looked at her, and I said, I'm sorry. It's all my fault. We hugged. We kissed. I went to the same chair, same pen, paper, same Bible. In 45 minutes, I had everything I needed for the next day. What made the difference? You see, the spirit came down. That's what I'm saying. The benefits of this. So it's not just that one case that brought about the book. It's something you have to live. And every day or two, there's something that we're going to... have to confront somebody who says something. And why did they say that? You've got to live this life 24 hours a day.
SPEAKER 03 :
Would you say that for those out there who feel they've lost the joy of their relationship with the Lord, that they might start by looking at their relationship with others and say, Lord, is it here?
SPEAKER 02 :
Is this why I'm dry as a bone? I'm going to tell you, you can have people pray for you. You can go to the altar or you can go to communion. But if you are bitter before you go, you're going to be bitter when you come back unless you deal with it. And if it happens in your heart, the joy, well, it's incalculable. The benefits are wonderful.
SPEAKER 03 :
To repeat what you said yesterday, which is a fundamental concept here, is that you don't necessarily have to go tell the person that you forgive them because they may not be ready to receive it and that may not be what's required.
SPEAKER 02 :
Well, nine out of ten people I've ever had to forgive – You could put them under a lie detector and they don't think they've done anything. And you see, that shows that I've probably hurt people and I don't know it. I've had people come to me and say, I've forgiven you for that. I say, whatever did I do? And I sincerely didn't know I'd hurt people. There are people that have hurt me. They don't know it. And so it's counterproductive. I sometimes say when I preach this sermon, I say, now look, if you're convicted of this sermon, when the service is over, don't go up to the person and say, I forgive you. Because they're going to say, for what? For what? And you're going to say, well, you know. And they're going to say, well, I don't. And then you're going to say, well, you should. And now you've got a fight on your hands. It's got to happen in the heart. The only time you say I forgive you is when you know they want to hear it so much.
SPEAKER 03 :
Then you tell them. You know, when I was in college, I went to a Christian college. We had chapel five days a week. And I remember an occasion or two where during revival or whenever it was, a student would stand up before the— 1500 people who were there and shout out loud enough for everybody to hear. I just want Jack to know that I have been angry at him and he's done all these terrible things to me and I forgive him. Embarrassed Jack half to death. It was an inappropriate thing to do. And that's not what we are required to do.
SPEAKER 02 :
It's got to happen in the heart. you are in a position like God is with us. You know what it's like when two of your children aren't speaking to each other. Our Heavenly Father feels that way when two of us aren't speaking to each other. And so we set Him free when we forgive one another. And what you must do with children is not to take sides, but say, well, I can see why you are hurt. I can see why you are hurt. But you must forgive. Yeah, as a parent, I would definitely say that. And I have to tell you this. I had the greatest parents in the world. I had the most wonderful father. My earliest memory of my father is seeing him on his knees for 30 minutes. He did not think of going to work without 30 minutes on his knees every morning. But for some reason, this teaching... I wasn't taught it at home. I'm telling you, it's a teaching that somehow, we all know it's there, but it gets swept under the carpet when it comes to application.
SPEAKER 03 :
R.T., the truth of the universe is in this concept and in this book because you took it right out of Scripture. And I would like to close today. our program today by asking you to pray for those out there who are bitter. They've been bitter for years and it has just been a bile that has affected them for so many years and they just can't seem to get beyond it. They can't forgive. Will you pray a prayer for us now? Pray for all of us, for all of us need forgiveness. to be able to forgive. It happens to everybody. And it happens regularly because God made us very sensitive people. Now you talk about the Holy Spirit being likened unto a dove. We are likened unto sheep. And we are easily led and easily influenced and easily hurt. And all of us get wounded by the casual things that people say around us when they don't even know that they've said anything that has hurt us. And so it's a common human experience and a difficult one to get beyond. And I would like you to pray for those who are going to try to do what you have said today.
SPEAKER 02 :
just before i pray could i just say one thing imagine the person out there that's hurt more than anybody else who feels that he has the most he has to forgive because he would say or she would say you don't know what i've been through my reply is the deeper the hurt the greater the sense of god's blessing if you can forgive that There are people around you that don't have the potential blessing you've got because they don't have to forgive what you have to forgive. But when you have been through what you've been through and still forgive, the power of the Spirit will be double, treble in your case. Pray for us. Heavenly Father, we thank you that you are touched with the feeling of our weaknesses. You know our frame. you remember that we are dust. And I pray for that person who's out there right now who has been so hurt, so betrayed. abused, the object of infidelity, who has been lied about, and people believe the lies, who has been hurt by a friend. And I pray for healing in that person at this very moment. And I pray that your Holy Spirit will come into that person's room or car or wherever they are at this moment, and you will enable that person to forgive Totally. To come to the place that he or she will stop talking about what they did and just cast their burden upon the Lord and forgive as you have forgiven us because you will not tell what you've forgiven us for. Enable that person to set that other person free, that one will not try to intimidate that we will not let them feel guilty, that we will let them save face and protect them from their darkest secret, and that we will accept it as something we must do as long as we live. Thank you that you understand this and that you don't moralize us. But you stoop to where we are and say, look, I forgive you. Set that person free. And enable us all right now to pray as Jesus did on the cross. Father, forgive them. They don't know what they're doing. And we thank you for the joy and the peace that will come. Heal that marriage. Heal that relationship. Set that person free. And may healing come in these moments. In Jesus' name, amen.
SPEAKER 03 :
Amen. What a beautiful prayer. Dr. R.T., I don't want to patronize you or flatter you, but your book, Total Forgiveness, is one of the most important books that I've read. in recent years. It was number one in the UK in sales. And it's been a bestseller here. And everybody ought to read this book. Everybody. I think everybody needs to at least examine themselves and see if there's something here that the Lord would have them do. And this book would be a real good place to start. Get it and read it and then apply it. And R.T., thank you for your influence in my life and for your ministry through the years. God has used you mightily, and I am just grateful for your friendship, and I appreciate your being with us. Well, thank you for having me. God bless you.
SPEAKER 01 :
Authentic forgiveness is truly one of life's toughest mountains to climb. Amen? It's more than the simple act of saying, I forgive you, but rather a transformative journey that opens the door to our own freedom and spiritual renewal. Fred, you're listening to Family Talk in a classic conversation featuring Dr. James Dobson and his dear friend, Dr. R.T. Kendall. The wisdom Dr. Kendall has shared these past couple of programs has given us all a fresh perspective on what true forgiveness really looks like, and perhaps more importantly, how it can set us free. His insights remind us that forgiveness isn't just about the past, it's about creating a better future for ourselves and also for those around us. Now, if you missed any part of the conversation or you know someone who would really benefit from hearing it, you can find both episodes online at drjamesdobson.org forward slash family talk. That's drjamesdobson.org forward slash family talk. Remember, you can also access these programs on your smartphone using the Dr. James Dobson Family app. And speaking of apps, the brand new JDFI Multilingual app is now available for those who use Apple products and will soon be available for Android users as well. You can be encouraged with practical daily messages that prioritize God and family in every area of your life. The new Multilingual app comes. gives you convenient access to Dr. Dobson's biblically-based teachings, including brand-new podcast episodes on marriage and parenting, the Dobson Marriage Podcast and the Dobson Parenting Podcast. In addition, you'll find the popular, newly remastered Dr. Dobson Minute. Now, these can be personalized to your interest, saved in your library, and quickly shared with those you love. Now, the Family app is currently available on Apple devices in English and Spanish, and to get those settings straight, it will just default to your phone's language setting. There are three additional languages that are in the works, as well as an Android version, which I'm happy about, and those will be released later in 2025. Through this new JDFI multilingual app, we are seeking to reach millions of people all over the world with the good news of the gospel and strength for the marriage and parenting journeys. For more information, simply go to drjamesdobson.org, or you can find the Dr. James Dobson Family Multilingual App in the Apple Store right now. And by the way, if you're looking for even more great content from Family Talk, our 2024 Best of Broadcast collection is still available. This carefully curated six-CD set features life-changing conversations with trusted experts and inspiring testimonies of God's faithfulness. We'll be happy to send you one as our way of thanking you for your gift of any amount in support of the JDFI today. So go online and request your copy at drjamesdobson.org or give us a call at 877-732-6825. Now, if you prefer, you can also send your gift through the mail. Our ministry mailing address is Dr. James Dobson's Family Talk, P.O. Box 39000, Colorado Springs, Colorado, the zip code 80949. Well, I'm Roger Marsh. So glad that you've been with us today. On behalf of Dr. Dobson and the entire team here at the JDFI, thanks so much for listening and for standing with us in prayer. Be sure to join us again next time right here for another edition of Dr. James Dobson's family talk the voice you trust for the family you love this has been a presentation of the dr james dobson family institute
According to Dr. R.T. Kendall, Total forgiveness is a miracle that will eclipse anything you’ve ever heard of! On today’s classic edition of Family Talk, Dr. James Dobson and Dr. Kendall discuss the difficult topic of forgiveness. Jesus states in Matthew 6:14, For if you forgive other people when they sin against you, your heavenly Father will also forgive you. Discover the steps you can take to release the driving cause of bitterness and an unsettled soul. To support this ministry financially, visit: https://www.oneplace.com/donate/707/29
In today's episode of Family Talk, Dr. James Dobson and Dr. R.T. Kendall discuss why forgiveness is one of the hardest yet most liberating acts we can undertake. Dr. Kendall shares seven steps to achieving what he calls total forgiveness, drawing upon his experiences and biblical narratives. Learn how not forgiving can act as a cancer to the soul, hindering spiritual growth and physical health, while true forgiveness, as exemplified by Joseph and Jesus, can lead to unimaginable peace and joy.
SPEAKER 03 :
Hello, everyone. You're listening to Family Talk, a radio broadcasting ministry of the James Dobson Family Institute. I'm Dr. James Dobson, and thank you for joining us for this program.
SPEAKER 01 :
Well, welcome to Family Talk, the broadcast division of the Dr. James Dobson Family Institute. I'm Roger Marsh. You know, we all face moments in life when relationships become strained, whether it's family members, coworkers, or friends who may have hurt us deeply. Sometimes the pain lingers even after someone has passed away. or is no longer a part of our lives. In Matthew chapter 6, Jesus addresses this directly when he says, But let's be honest. True forgiveness can be one of the hardest things we are called to do as Christians, especially when that wound runs deep. Today here on Family Talk, we're bringing you a profound conversation featuring Dr. James Dobson and his good friend, Dr. R.T. Kendall. R.T. Kendall served as pastor of Westminster Chapel in London for 25 years. Dr. Kendall shares that until recently, you could hardly find a book about the practical aspects of forgiving others. There's plenty about God forgiving us, but very little about the nitty-gritty of how we forgive each other. But through his own painful experience and deep study of Scripture, particularly the story of Joseph, Dr. Kendall discovered what he calls total forgiveness, a transformative approach that brings healing to both the forgiver and the forgiven. Now, during today's conversation, he will draw wisdom from the biblical story of Joseph, sharing seven essential steps to achieving total forgiveness. You'll learn why telling someone, I forgive you, isn't always the best approach, and also how unforgiveness can affect your physical and spiritual health, and most importantly, how to find the kind of peace that comes only through truly letting go. Well, whether you're struggling with a recent hurt or you're carrying wounds from years past, today's broadcast will offer practical biblical wisdom for the journey toward forgiveness. So now let's join Dr. James Dobson for this classic edition of Family Talk.
SPEAKER 02 :
Artie, it's very good to have you here. I'm honored to be here. This has got to be possibly the greatest honor of my life to be on this program.
SPEAKER 03 :
Well, I don't fully understand that, but thank you for saying it. You are a prolific writer. You have some very strong feelings about this book that we're going to talk about today, Total Forgiveness, don't you?
SPEAKER 02 :
I do. I do. The concept changed my life. It was born in what was at the time the greatest trial of my life. You describe in the book what that trial was. Well, I don't... You don't go into the greatest detail. I can't name people. I don't want anybody to be able to trace it to anybody or anything like that. But an old friend by the name of Joseph Tsong from Romania was in London. Because he was from outside London and wouldn't tell anybody, I decided to pour my heart out to him. And I wasn't prepared for what he said. He looked at me and said, RT, you must totally forgive them. For until you totally forgive them, you will be in chains. Release them and you will be released. Nobody had ever talked to me like that in my life.
SPEAKER 03 :
And yet you have a doctorate in theology and your life has been the scripture. Yet you said in that book that the concept or the teaching in the Bible about forgiveness is one of the most fundamental truths in
SPEAKER 02 :
in the Word. Yeah, and yet it seems to have been swept under the carpet by the church for 2,000 years.
SPEAKER 03 :
I wish we had time to share those scriptures, because there are 18 or 20 that just jump out at you, and I don't understand why ministers haven't focused on that, considering the fact that most of the people sitting out in front of them are angry at someone over something that they haven't forgiven.
SPEAKER 02 :
Well, non-Christians are discovering the advantage of this. And the first person to benefit from total forgiveness is the person who does the forgiving. You are set free. You are released.
SPEAKER 03 :
Well, you have made this study of what the Bible has to say about this subject. You don't feel that it is an option.
SPEAKER 02 :
Oh, there's no choice. There's no choice. Jesus said, if you forgive not men their trespasses, your Heavenly Father will not forgive you your trespasses. And it's the chief way we grieve the Holy Spirit. And if we knew what happens when we hold a grudge, We're hurting ourselves. We lose presence of mind, presence of God, sense of His leadership, the anointing in our lives. We are impoverished to the degree we don't forgive.
SPEAKER 03 :
Well, it's very easy to tell someone they ought to forgive. It is sometimes very hard to do it because the person who hurt us was frequently wrong in doing that. It's not that you misperceived it. People do things to us that were of a bad motive or intentional in whatever aspect it was, and yet you have to forgive anyway. Let's go back to the personal illustration you sort of gave. How did you go about forgiving when everything inside of you said this was not right? Okay.
SPEAKER 02 :
You don't go to the people and say, I forgive you. Because once we do that, it's an unconscious desire to hurt them a little bit. Because we want them to know they've hurt us. So we go to them and say, I forgive you for what you've done. Nine out of ten people we ever have to forgive, you could put them under a lie detector. They don't even think they've done anything. So you don't go to them and say, I forgive you. It's got to happen in your heart. And if it happens in the heart, it shows and they can feel it. And the people I had to forgive, I never went to them, but they could tell. And we actually became friends. We just never talked about it. It is freeing, isn't it? Oh, it sets you free.
SPEAKER 03 :
It sets you free. And I can tell you as a psychologist, and you know this as a minister, that as long as you are angry and as long as you have not forgiven, it's a cancer of the soul. that rot you from within. And it doesn't hurt the other person that you're angry at.
SPEAKER 02 :
It destroys you. We somehow think that if we don't forgive them, that we're going to get at them some way. And God says, vengeance is mine. I will recompense. But the one who won't forgive, he's the one that's likely to develop high blood pressure, kidney disease, arthritis. That doesn't mean that everyone who has these ailments That's the reason, but it is often there is a link between the two, your physical condition and not forgiving.
SPEAKER 03 :
I mentioned the field of psychology a minute ago. There are fads that come and go. Ten, 15 years ago, one of the fads in pop psych was that you had to get rid of this anger. And so the way they went about doing this is to get you to say the meanest, harshest things you could say or think about the other person. There were what's called encounter bats, the most stupid things to ever come along, which were kind of foamy things. And you beat up on each other as though that's going to get rid of the anger. It didn't work because it was not according to God's design, right?
SPEAKER 02 :
Well, the reason I said to my friend, you know, here's what they did. I was hoping he would say, well, get it out of your system. You ought to be angry. I wasn't prepared. He said, you must totally forgive them. It was the greatest word anybody ever said to me. I've never been the same since. When you try to express it. And to ventilate it, you want to make it worse. Well, it's like reading pornography. You think that's going to satisfy you. You just want more. And the person who wants to get it out of their system, they'll get more angry. There's no way that you're going to get rid of this until you totally forgive. Now, R.T., we're talking to people.
SPEAKER 03 :
who are listening to us who have good reason to be angry. Some of them were sexually abused as children. Now they're adults and they can't forgive that uncle or that grandfather or that neighbor, maybe that stepfather. They can't forgive them because what they did is terrible and it is still alive as much as if it happened yesterday. Many have been rejected by a spouse and that individual has run off with another lover and left them penniless and left them hurt and wounded. There are some horrible situations that you know that we're talking about indirectly today. What do you say to them? How do they begin? If they don't tell the other person, that they forgive them, how do they deal with these feelings that are inside?
SPEAKER 02 :
Well, in my book, Total Forgiveness, I give seven steps how to forgive. Many people think they have forgiven, but there are objective tests. All right. What are they? The first, you don't tell anybody what they did. That's rule number one. You tell nobody what they did. Why do we tell? We tell to hurt the person. We tell to make ourselves look better. We tell so that the people that hurt us will lose credibility. And our way of punishing them and getting even is to hurt their reputation. And that won't do. The first step is controlling the tongue, telling nobody. The only exception would be, for therapeutic reasons, tell one other person, tell your pastor, tell a counselor. That is fine. But if you're doing it to hurt somebody, smear them, blacken their reputation, that will only cause you to be more bitter, and it doesn't work. The other exception would be if in a court of law you need to testify. I had a lady in Westminster Chapel who was raped, and they found the rapist, and he was from a Middle Eastern country. And she said if they send him back, he will be beheaded. And I have forgiven him. What do I do? I said, you must testify. He's a danger to society. But it wasn't a personal grudge. But the first thing is you don't tell what they did. The second thing is, Jim, you won't let them be afraid of you. Never let them feel intimidated by you. You see, God isn't that way. He forgives us. He's not given us a spirit of fear, but of love, of power, of a sound mind. And this is why the Holy Spirit enables us to cry, Abba, Father. And God doesn't want us to be afraid of him. And when we make a person afraid of us, we're not being like Jesus. Jesus puts people at ease. A person walks into a room and you see someone and they freeze and you say, good. That shows there's a grudge there, unfinished business. The third step, you won't let them feel guilty. You see, Joseph, when he forgave his brothers, he actually said, don't be angry with yourselves. But we punish people by sending them on a guilt trip. And this brings up a very important point. A lot of people say you don't have to forgive them until they're sorry. But that's the big cop out because chances are you will never have to forgive them because most people don't even think they've done anything. If you go by the old covenant, yes, it's tit for tat, like in the Middle East today. Tit for tat. Suicide, bombing, then revengeance, and then revengeance for that. But Jesus said, Father, forgive them. They don't know what they're doing. There was not a hint of revengeance at the cross. It takes a little bit of grace to forgive them if they're sorry. Minimal grace, but it takes a lot of grace to forgive them if they're not sorry. And total forgiveness is when you won't let them feel guilty.
SPEAKER 03 :
The things you're sharing here go counter to every natural impulse in the human personality.
SPEAKER 02 :
I've had people say to me, I have never seen a miracle. I've never seen a person healed from cancer or a blind person healed. I say to them, total forgiveness is a miracle that will eclipse anything you've ever heard of because this is right against nature. But the one who does it, the reward is incalculable and the peace and the joy. I might tell you that many years ago, I had a spiritual experience with the Lord when I was pastor of a church in Tennessee. Driving in my car one day, I had what I can only call a Damascus Road experience. The glory of the Lord filled the car. I was given such a peace. I didn't know it was possible in this life. Now, my reason for mentioning it is... Within a year, I'd lost that. I tried every way to get it back. I started praying more and it didn't mean no harm. I started tithing. That didn't mean no harm. I thought of any way to get it. Do you know when I went through this crisis and I forgave those people? That joy came back, and I had forgotten what it was like. I can tell you right now, it is no small thing to do. It's like climbing Mount Everest. Few people do it, but the reward is wonderful. Step number four, you let them save face. You know what Joseph said to his brothers? They had betrayed him 22 years before, sold him to the Ishmaelites. He said to them, it wasn't you who did it. God did it. He intended it for good. Yeah, yeah. God meant it for good. God meant it for good. They couldn't believe it. They couldn't believe what was happening. He could have crushed them. Oh. He had the power to do it. Do you know, when he was a 17-year-old teenager, he had dreams. And a dream was that those 11 brothers would bow to him. He always knew one day that dream would be fulfilled. But he thought that when it happened, he could say, gotcha. But instead, it was a new Joseph. He was broken. He sobbed. He says, come close to me. He wouldn't let them be afraid of him. He didn't want them to feel guilty. And now he let them save face. It wasn't you who did it. God did it. And they were overwhelmed. Total forgiveness is when the person who hurt you doesn't even know it was a problem.
SPEAKER 03 :
Mm-hmm. Boy, that is tough to deal with. I'm sure you, like me, have had occasions to lash out at somebody. The last thing I wanted to do was to forgive them to the degree that they didn't even know that I'd been hurt and not to hurt back.
SPEAKER 02 :
Total forgiveness is you don't even let them feel guilty and don't even let them know it was a problem. You base a lot of the book on that story of Joseph and his brothers. The basis for my objective test, Jim, is the story, Genesis 45, Joseph forgiving his brothers. It's all there. Joseph was a type of Christ.
SPEAKER 03 :
He certainly was. Which means that when you read of him, you think of Christ. And that's the way Jesus forgave us totally.
SPEAKER 02 :
All right, number five. Number five, you protect them from their darkest secret and greatest fear. Now, Joseph has said, you didn't do it, God did it. Now these brothers are suddenly saying, oh, I know what's going to happen. He's going to make us go back to Canaan and tell our father Jacob what we did. Jim, they'd rather die. They'd rather die than have to do that. Joseph knew that, and it's so beautiful. Read it in Genesis 45. He writes the script for them. He tells them what to say. He won't let them tell what... those brothers did. He won't let them tell their father, and he assures them that what they did, the father will never know. And most of us have some information about another person. We could hurt them with it. Tell me what the script was. The script was, he says, you go back to Canaan, and here's what you say to my father. Joseph is now prime minister of Egypt or words to that effect. Hurry. Don't delay. Come and live in the land of Goshen. And there I will look after you and take care of you. Come at once. End of story. That's all they were allowed to say. They could never tell their father. And, you know, they didn't want to. And he wouldn't let them.
SPEAKER 03 :
And what a story Joseph could have made them tell of how they sold him into slavery. They killed an animal and soaked his coat in blood and told him that Joseph was dead. I mean, what a horrible plot. And they could not even tell them.
SPEAKER 02 :
Well, that's the way Jesus is with us. He covers for us. And that's what the blood of Jesus does. It washes away all sin. And God is not keen to yank that skeleton out of the closet. God totally forgives. Number six. Number six. It's a life sentence. What I mean by that is you have to keep doing it. The husband says to the wife, I thought you forgave me. She says, well, that was yesterday. What happened was 17 years later, old Jacob died. And now the brothers are so afraid. This time, Joseph is going to go for them. And they make up a story. And they say, look, before our father died, he told us to tell you, please forgive us for what we did. He says, I can't believe I'm hearing this. Look here. I told you 17 years ago I forgave you. I forgave you then. I forgive you now. It's in Genesis chapter 50, which shows he still did it. It's something you have to do. And this is the genius of Joseph and the reason God could trust him with such a lofty position. He totally forgave those brothers. And he didn't do it just once and get them there in Egypt, and now he goes for them. No, it was something he did. And I say to anybody, you will have to keep doing this as long as you live because after you do it once, a week or two later, you say to yourself, you know, these people are going to get off the hook. They're not going to get caught, and you get all upset. I remember that in the situation where I had to forgive, After a few weeks, it dawned on me how they had done what they did, and they're not going to get caught, and I'd get so upset, and I'd lose that peace. And then I'd forgive them again, and I got the peace back. And then I'd remember, they're not going to get caught, I'd lose the peace. And I had it back and forth, and I came to a decision, the peace is better. Paul said that love keeps no record of wrongs. That's a key verse. Oh, that's so hard. Why do we keep records? So we can prove this. Husband says to the wife, I will remember that. And he keeps his word. Do you know this teaching would heal any marriage by sundown? By sundown. If both will stop pointing the finger. It's a choice. Total forgiveness is a choice. And by the way, don't be surprised if the people you have to forgive are those that you're closest to. Sometimes it's the Christian. It's the godly. Did you ever hear that poem? Living with the saints above, oh, that will be glory. Living with the saints below, well, that's another story. Number seven, we just got time for it. Number seven, you pray for them. And you don't just say, Lord, I commit them to you. No, you pray for them that God will bless them. Bless them. Let them off the hook. You know, Jesus didn't say, I forgive you. He says, Father, you forgive them. And when you pray for them to be blessed and you do it from the heart. You're there.
SPEAKER 03 :
You were talking, R.T., about Joseph not letting them off the hook, his brothers off the hook. I'm not going to let you off the hook. We're not through with this conversation. And we're out of time, but there's so much more to talk about. Will you be with us again next time? Be delighted. I want to talk first about what forgiveness is not. Because you have listed many things that forgiveness is not what people think it is. And we'll talk about that next time. Thank you, my friend. Appreciate you writing the book and coming to share those ideas with us. Thank you.
SPEAKER 01 :
True freedom isn't found in waiting for others to admit that they've hurt us. It comes when we choose to quietly let go, following the example of Joseph with his brothers and Christ with each of us. You're listening to Family Talk. Our special guest today has been Dr. R.T. Kendall. And be sure to join us again next time for part two of this dynamic conversation as Dr. Kendall explains to Dr. Dobson what forgiveness is not. Now, if you missed any part of today's program, you can visit us online at drjamesdobson.org forward slash family talk. You can easily share this broadcast with a friend or a loved one from our website. Keep in mind, you can also share it from your smartphone, either using our website or the official Dr. James Dobson Family Institute app. And speaking of applications for your smartphone, we have exciting news to share. You can be encouraged with Practical daily messages that prioritize God and family in every area of life with our brand new Family app from the James Dobson Family Institute. The new JDFI Multilingual app provides you with convenient access to Dr. Dobson's biblically-based teaching, including marriage and parenting podcasts, and the popular newly remastered Dr. Dobson Minute. Now, these can be personalized to your interest. They can be saved in your library and quickly shared with those you love. Now, I mentioned that the JDFI Family app is now available as a multilingual app. It's currently available on all Apple devices in English and Spanish. It will default to your phone's current language setting. And then coming up later this month, we'll be adding the Android version as well along with three additional languages that'll all be released all throughout 2025 as we seek to reach millions of people for the Lord. For more information on how you can download the new Dr. James Dobson Multilingual Family App, go to drjamesdobson.org, or you can find it in the Apple Store right now. Of course, you'll be able to find it in Google Play once the year wears on. Keep in mind you can also connect with us through social media for daily inspiration and updates. You can follow us on Facebook, Instagram, X, and YouTube to join in our growing community of families who are standing together and standing stronger in the Lord. Please know that throughout the year we receive countless messages from listeners about how certain Family Talk programs have touched their lives. And while many have already requested our 2024 Best of Broadcasts collection, there's still time for you to receive yours. Go to drjamesdobson.org forward slash Family Talk and we'll be happy to send you the six CD set as our way of thanking you for your gift of any amount in support of the ministry of Family Talk. That's drjamesdobson.org. jamesdobson.org, or you can give your gift over the phone when you call 877-732-6825. Well, I'm Roger Marsh, and from all of us here at the Dr. James Dobson Family Institute, thanks for making us a part of your day. Be sure to tune in again next time when Dr. Dobson continues his conversation with Dr. R.T. Kendall on the important topic of forgiveness. You won't want to miss it coming up right here next time on Family Talk, the voice you trust for the family you love. This has been a presentation of the Dr. James Dobson Family Institute.
On today’s edition of Family Talk, Dr. James Dobson concludes his insightful conversation with Doug Spada about his book, Monday Morning Atheism. Doug points out that just as Jesus was a carpenter before starting His ministry, the Lord values work and the workplace. Doug also challenges us to integrate our home, faith, and vocation in a God-honoring way. To support this ministry financially, visit: https://www.oneplace.com/donate/707/29
Join Dr. James Dobson as he sits down with Doug Spada, a distinguished voice on integrating Christian faith into the workplace. In this episode, they discuss how work can be transformed from a mundane routine to a profound act of worship, exploring biblical truths and practical steps that help believers stay spiritually grounded throughout the workweek. Discover how your work, be it in an office or at home nurturing a family, can be an empowered avenue for spreading God’s love and fulfilling His purpose.
SPEAKER 02 :
Welcome everyone to Family Talk. It's a ministry of the James Dobson Family Institute supported by listeners just like you. I'm Dr. James Dobson and I'm thrilled that you've joined us.
SPEAKER 01 :
Well, welcome to Family Talk with your host, psychologist and bestselling author, Dr. James Dobson. I'm Roger Marsh, and you know the weekend will soon be upon us. But if you've ever had that Monday morning feeling, you know, dreading the workday ahead, or maybe you've convinced yourself that your job is just a paycheck, completely separate from your faith life, if either of those rings true, you'll want to stay tuned. Because for everyone who has such an uplifting experience on Sunday morning and then dreads going back to work the next day, Our guest, Doug Spada, has some great biblical insights to share. He's the author of the book called Monday Morning Atheist, Why We Switch God Off at Work. He'll challenge us to see our jobs through a whole new lens, one that reveals God's greater purpose for our work lives. On our last edition of Family Talk, we heard Doug's personal story of losing a million dollars in business, but seeing God's redemption through that experience. Today, Doug will share how work itself can be a form of worship designed by God even before the fall of man. Let's join that conversation right now on today's edition of Family Talk.
SPEAKER 02 :
How did you recover from this Monday morning atheist syndrome? You never questioned God. He was always a reality in your life, but you didn't serve Him with great enthusiasm for a period of time, either at work or at home. How did you start to get that together? Because we're talking to a lot of people who are right now where you were.
SPEAKER 03 :
Yes. First of all, I want to make the statement that I haven't fully recovered. And what I mean by that is that I often tell people that I'm a recovering Monday morning atheist. And all I mean by that is that we all know it. I mean, we can love God, but there's just areas that we have to keep working on. We all have different sin propensities or sometimes different environments. You can walk into your workplace and have a new supervisor or something in a different department and say, And not get along with them. So you're grappling with another element of that.
SPEAKER 02 :
Marital infidelity often begins right there in the workplace, too. You not only aren't working for the Lord or serving Him, but you're really flirting with disaster.
SPEAKER 03 :
Yes, and a high percent of improper entanglements. actually start where? Work. So, see, that's another – there's so many of these things that actually kind of affect our families. You know, it's very important to actually get our head around this because you're right. Those are very critical. But, yeah, I still recover. I still have to – I think all of us have to stay on our game, you know, so we all – we have to keep growing.
SPEAKER 02 :
How is it manifested now? Do I want to answer this on the radio? Yeah.
SPEAKER 03 :
I knew that one was going to make you squirm. Sometimes discouragement and disillusionment. Sometimes, you know, you're trying to accomplish a mission. You know what this is like, right? And you're not seeing progress fast enough or, you know, the people you're trying to reach aren't, you know, maybe getting it or you're having to kind of readjust it and stuff. So sometimes I catch myself not trusting God. I'm just using one little example. Maybe not trusting God with my work.
SPEAKER 02 :
Somebody said it best, I think. Life is so daily.
SPEAKER 03 :
You know, it's on and on and on and on. I don't think you've ever arrived. And I think, I don't know, you could probably tell us a lot about this, Dr. Dollar. It seems like the closer you get to Jesus, the more you see your junk. Yeah. I thought about this scripture in Acts 17. And Paul was on his second missionary journey. And he just left Berea, and he got stoned. They were throwing stones, and he was hightailing it out of Berea. And in Acts 17, it says that he was coming into the city of Athens, and it says that he saw that the city was given over to idols. Do you remember that part of Scripture? And this is an interesting part. It says, so, that means in the Bible he took action, right? So he went into the synagogues. with the Jew and the Gentile worshipers, and it says he was in the marketplace daily. And then in verse 17 or 18, it says he was preaching Jesus and the resurrection. So I thought it was interesting that Paul actually modeled this. Paul was a tent maker, right? So yes, he was in the church and the synagogue with the Jew and Gentile worshipers, but it says he was in the marketplace daily.
SPEAKER 02 :
And the Lord sent him there to minister there. Yes. And put him in contact with people and allowed him to spread the good news of the gospel.
SPEAKER 03 :
Yeah, he was even using those idols, remember, to actually, you know, to preach and actually to the unknown God, right? I'm going to tell you about this idol of the unknown God.
SPEAKER 02 :
Let me tell you who that unknown God is.
SPEAKER 03 :
Yes, exactly. So that was exciting. So, yeah, this is a very critical topic. thing for the body of Christ. And I think that the main reason is because people are positioned in culture. How are we supposed to reach culture? I mean, we can't just, you know, stay in our houses, man. God sent us out. I mean, he sent us out, you know, so we're out there all over the place in culture. And if we can't understand God's purpose for why we're there, then we're just going to do time. And that's not fun. Everybody knows what that feels like, just doing time.
SPEAKER 02 :
The cover of your book, Monday Morning Atheist, has a switch. It looks like a light switch.
SPEAKER 03 :
Yes, it is.
SPEAKER 02 :
And the implication is that that's pretty easy. You just go over and hit the switch, and suddenly you're flooded with light.
SPEAKER 03 :
Truth of the matter is a lot of hard work, isn't it? It is. It's hard work. And that switch kind of came from my engineering background. I just thought I was thinking about, wow, this is interesting. If you've ever played with a light switch, you have a ground terminal on there. And then you have two power terminals on the other side. So in order to fight Monday morning atheism, you have to stay grounded to the truth. Connected to the power, and you have to keep your heart switched on out there where God has called you.
SPEAKER 02 :
The analogy that you make is that you go to church perhaps on a Sunday morning, and then you go into the workplace, and that's where you kind of put everything on hold until it's time to go back to church. The truth of the matter is the church is really designed to equip you to leave that place of worship and go into the byways and highways and encountering people. And there's where you do the work of the church. And we're all ministers in that regard, right?
SPEAKER 03 :
Yes, it is. Dr. Dobson, sometimes we don't define ministry in the right context, right? I mean, if you say ministry to people, what do they generally think? Pastor. Pastor, or they think going on mission trips or working at the soup kitchen, something like that, right? So when you get into the Bible, and we'll get into that in a little bit, is you'll actually see that actually, you know, God uses words for work throughout the Bible, that work is ministry, and ministry is work. So they're not separated. And so I think back to the church. I think... Sometimes we think that that is where it happens. That's the epicenter. But game time really starts on Monday, right? So that's why we're focused on Monday. And we've got to get in the game and stay switched on.
SPEAKER 02 :
God not only honors work. God worked. He did the work of creation for six days. So he's very familiar with work, and he wants us to take it seriously. That's right.
SPEAKER 03 :
Quote Genesis 2. Yeah, Genesis 2.15 is the verse where it says, God placed man in the garden to actually tend it, or to work, right? He put him to work. Yeah, he put him to work. And that preceded sin. That preceded the fall. So a lot of times Christians think that That Adam and Eve sinned. God got ticked off. So he cursed them with work. And we're all just kind of having to work the rest of our life until we go off. He cursed the ground, didn't he? He cursed the ground, right? So work is hard. Obviously, everybody knows that. Work is hard, but it's a holy calling. So if you look at that word in Genesis 2.15 for work, it's actually the Hebrew word avodah, A-V-O-D-A-H. And so that's the same word that God uses throughout the Old Testament for the word worship. So work and worship are the same in God's eyes. So when you're singing at church or, you know, just however you worship God and stuff, God's looking at that as the same as when you are actually doing your job well with excellence and all the things you just got done describing.
SPEAKER 02 :
Hmm. You made the point, Doug, that Jesus lived for 33 years, and for 30 of that, he was in the workforce. He was a carpenter. That's right.
SPEAKER 03 :
Yeah. I think some weird things sometimes, Dr. Dobson, but sometimes I think about Jesus in that carpenter's shop. So he was fully God and fully man. Did he ever hit his finger, man, with a hammer or something?
SPEAKER 01 :
What came out of his mouth?
SPEAKER 03 :
I was like – Oh, it couldn't have been sin. But, yeah, so your point, though, is, I mean, he worked for 30 years. And you often ask, why did our Heavenly Father have his son, Jesus, you know, work for 30 years, cutting things, taking orders, doing customer service?
SPEAKER 02 :
Yeah, he should have been in seminary. Something, practicing miracles or snapping his fingers and making, yeah.
SPEAKER 03 :
Learning to speak or something. You know, and one time I thought, man, you know, We know his heavenly father, and it says in Scripture that Jesus never did anything unless he saw his father working, right? I mean, it's just amazing the way that, you know, Jesus modeled this. And the things we're talking about, he sure wouldn't have had Jesus work for 30 years if he didn't honor and think that work was a high calling. That just makes no sense.
SPEAKER 02 :
You know, God's economy is very different from ours. That's right. And it's strange. I think of David being chosen to be king. I mean, what an assignment. That's right. The Lord himself said, this is my man. This is the one that will lead Israel. Yes. And what happens for the next 14 years? Yes. He's out on the mountaintops trying to stay alive with Saul chasing him. 14 years. Couldn't he have spent that time getting ready to be king? Yes. Learning what it means to be king? Yes.
SPEAKER 03 :
Or Moses out in the wilderness 40 years. It's like, whoa.
SPEAKER 02 :
Yeah. What a waste.
SPEAKER 03 :
Yeah.
SPEAKER 02 :
And yet God's economy is different. Maybe this doesn't fit, but we've just come through fall here in Colorado, which is so beautiful. And the aspen trees become like gold for a period of time, very short period of time. I remember one tree in particular. Huge aspen tree that was so beautiful in the morning sun that there is not an artist in the world, not an artist anywhere who could reproduce it. It would just be leaves of gold. And we took pictures of it and stood there. The amazing thing, as beautiful as that is, is that three days later, all those beautiful golden leaves are gone. And there's just sticks there. What a waste. And yet in God's economy, nothing goes to waste.
SPEAKER 03 :
You know, you brought up David just a minute ago. I was thinking about David and his work. So you remember when David, where the... Philistines and the Israelites, they camped out against each other in the Valley of Elah. And remember David came on the battle scene. And I was thinking, you know, David spent all those years with that slingshot. That was an element of his work, right? He became obviously very good. I think it said he killed lion, bear, whatever.
SPEAKER 01 :
Yeah.
SPEAKER 03 :
He practiced that. So listen to this. Everybody was cowering down, you know, and Goliath and stuff. And David, you know, had this courage. Right. And you remember when David was with Saul and Saul tried to give him his armor and everything. Right. And you could see David. It was really small. It didn't fit. He's like, basically, listen. This is not my vocation. This is not me. He goes down to the brook and he gets five smooth stones. God used his work to actually slay the giant. Do you see what I'm saying? I sure do. It's a very interesting kind of thought that God uses our vocation. He uses our skills, our talents to actually accomplish what it is that – That he's called us for. I mean, that's a very, very interesting kind of think about that.
SPEAKER 02 :
You and I were talking once before about Cyrus, the Persian king who defeated Nebuchadnezzar. He was not a godly man. He was not a man that would have had the characteristics that we would look to for leadership, and yet God used him to release the Jews and send them back to their homeland into Jerusalem. I think of that in the context of of the recent election here in the United States where Donald Trump obviously had the favor of the Lord or he would not have been successful. And yet he was and is a flawed vessel. Aren't we all? But some Christians overlooked him because they said he's not good enough. He's not perfect enough. He's done sinful things, evil things. I said that about him. I opposed him in the beginning because he was a kingpin of the gambling enterprise and had three families. And there were reasons why I would not have chosen him. But God chose him apparently. We have to assume that. That's right. And so you don't know who God is going to use or how.
SPEAKER 03 :
Yeah, I think if the Apostle Paul would be here, we probably would have rejected him with all his background. Yeah, you guys can't – isn't there someone else? Yeah. Or even David. I mean, like you mentioned before, why – you know, David had so much sin and so much, I mean – The murderer, the adulterer.
SPEAKER 02 :
Yeah. And yet Nathan, the prophet – came and ministered to David. That's right. Maybe, maybe there's some Davids around us that we need to reach out to. That's right.
SPEAKER 03 :
How many pastors or priests did Jesus call to be his disciples? None. They were workers, doctor, tax collector, fishermen. They were workers. Jesus called workers to be his disciples. It's very interesting. He put Jesus in a carpenter's, just a blue-collar kind of family. That's an interesting point.
SPEAKER 02 :
So the point of all this is that the workplace is a place of assignment. It is where God sends you to do not the work of the company or the employer or whatever it is, but to do God's work in that assignment.
SPEAKER 03 :
That's right. And we need the defined workplace. I like to call it – that's why it's called work life. Everybody has a work life, okay? So let's not get so focused on the place that we do the work, right? Because then that takes the family away. Like all of a sudden, that's not work or something. So the collage of where people do work in today's economy is just fascinating. I mean, people are in cars, working in their home. I mean, they're all over the place. So we need to focus on the work itself. But you're right. It's an assignment from God. And it's a holy calling. My pastor one time, he got up and he asked the congregation, he says, so how many of you are in full-time Christian ministry? And I think one or two people raised. And he just got done preaching. And he says, you didn't hear anything I just got done saying. I'm going to give you one more chance. How many of you are in full-time Christian ministry? And then the whole place kind of, you know. But he says, hey, how would you like it if I came up here to preach? And I hadn't prepared, prayed, all the things. A lot of you are just getting up and just going to work and treating it with disrespect like it's not a holy calling from God.
SPEAKER 02 :
I don't know if this is a bunny trail or not, but I've been at what I call ministry here. It's not classical ministry. I'm not a minister. But there's no question about the fact that the Lord has put me in this role for 39 years. And looking back over all that time, there's some things I did well. There's some things I'd like to have done over. There are some moments that I'm not proud of, and there are also some messages that I think were divinely ordered. And one of them goes back to the beginning of my ministry when the Women's Liberation Movement, as it was then called, was telling women that raising children was a waste of time, that that couldn't have been significant, and that they really needed to find some kind of place to park their kids so they could get into the real world and do important things. And I took all that on. And I became one of the passionate spokespersons for the woman at home, the woman who was raising children, the woman who was a wife to her husband, the woman who was doing God's calling in that situation. And I've had a lot of women tell me that they were out there. And they were being influenced by the culture, and they were wounded by it. And that a voice of somebody saying, this is important. That's right. Yeah. I get tears in my eyes right now after all these years saying that was God's message for that time. That's right.
SPEAKER 03 :
And it still is. It is. That's synonymous with what we're talking about, that every person – has value in God's eyes, right? And so I do think that what you just described, you know, is a very important point because I think that those mothers sometimes feel left out from, because working for God has nothing to do with the economic benefit that comes. That's right. So that's a very important point. So sometimes people think if I make this amount or I make... That has nothing to do with God's... Now, is that a part of work and raising a family? Yes, but we should not take our value from that. And I think that a lot of times... you know, mothers or people that choose to actually serve. There's a lot of different scenarios, and it's not just mothers. There's men doing it now. There's different situations and things. So, yeah, I think we can't take our lead off of kind of the economic benefit.
SPEAKER 02 :
I'm not sure how much Jesus was making of that. Imagine the privilege of taking a new little life bringing him or her into the world and his brothers and sisters, and pouring your life into those children and giving everything you've got to them, not only protecting them and feeding them and medicating and take care of them, but teaching them to serve God, to know Him, and to understand, to comprehend who they are as children of God. And to teach the scriptures to them and to make honorable men and women, especially in this context from my book, Bringing Up Boys, teaching boys what it means to lead a family and to be God's man and to be honorable and honest. and disciplined and not getting into addictions that would undermine everything they're trying to do. You have an opportunity to do that. And then those children grow up and they pass that along to their children. I'm telling you, there's no assignment. There's no work at all. can compete with that in my view.
SPEAKER 03 :
No, no. And I don't know if you've ever seen the figures of what it would take to replace a mother's work and what you would have to hire out and all that. It's astronomical. I mean, it actually really like drops your jaw like, oh, my goodness, we couldn't hire all this in. It's an amazing kind of calling and privilege.
SPEAKER 02 :
Well, let me personalize it. To the woman out there that's listening to us today, and you have felt disrespected by the culture, the other women that you know around you in your neighborhood and in your church are doing exciting things. They may be in medicine. They may be teaching. Who knows what they're doing? And you've begun to feel like your life doesn't count and that you're either stupid or you're exploited or both. Don't you believe it. That is a divine assignment that God has given you. And we honor you here today. Yes, we do. That's awesome. Well, our guest has been Doug Spada, and he's the author or co-author of a book called Monday Morning Atheists, Why We Switch God Off at Work and How You Can Fix It, all about the workplace and the frustrations that are there and what God wants us to do. Doug, this is interesting stuff. This is unique information. I don't think we've ever talked about anything quite like this before. I don't want to be a Monday morning atheist. And I'm sure there are millions of people out there who feel the same way about it. And yet they've had a bad attitude toward Monday morning. Thanks for coming all the way from Atlanta and being with us. Yes, thank you. I should say, in conclusion, you're CEO of Work Life Incorporated, right? Yes, CEO of Work Life. You can find it at worklife.org. God's blessings to you and your family.
SPEAKER 03 :
Thank you, Dr. Dobson.
SPEAKER 01 :
And that concludes part two of Dr. James Dobson's inspiring conversation with Doug Spada here on Family Talk. They discussed discovering God's purpose for your life in the workplace. I trust that today's conversation has given you fresh perspective on how to approach your daily work with renewed spiritual focus. Now remember, if you missed any part of today's broadcast or you know someone who would benefit from hearing it, visit drjamesdobson.org forward slash family talk. There you'll find the complete program along with the link for Doug's book, Monday Morning Atheist. And for more content from Dr. Dobson and the James Dobson Family Institute, make sure you download the official JDFI app. available both for Apple and for Android. Well, I'm Roger Marsh. For Dr. Dobson and all of us here at Family Talk, thanks so much for listening. May God continue to richly bless you and your family as you grow deeper in your relationship with him. And be sure to join us again next time right here for another edition of Dr. James Dobson's Family Talk, the voice you trust for the family you love. This has been a presentation of the Dr. James Dobson Family Institute.
