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This discussion with economics professor Melissa Kearney makes a provocative, data-driven case for marriage and two-parent households, by showing how the institution's decline has led to numerous economic harm in society. She outlines how America can reverse this trend to ensure future prosperity and stability for children.
Read this article for support in single parenting.
Read this article about parenting differences between moms and dads.
Get the Kendrick brothers' movie on fatherhood journeys, Show Me the Father.
Join us in this engaging episode where Jim Daly and Tim Geglein dive into the essence of having respectful and trustworthy conversations amidst the polarization we see today. Tim, a seasoned expert in government and public relations, shares his insights from his new book 'Stumbling Toward Utopia', touching on creating 'heaven on earth' from a human perspective. Together, they unravel the significance of remaining anchored in faith while nurturing dialogue across different belief systems, whether on college campuses or within the bustling heart of Washington D.C. You'll get an inside look at how great conversations ignite change and reflect on the power of God's presence in the most unexpected places. Faith and family take center stage in this discussion as Jim and Tim revisit the lessons from history and how they apply to today's society. With anecdotes about Abraham Lincoln's deep-seated reliance on scripture and the important role of families in shaping culture, they make a compelling case for returning to spiritual roots as a solution to current societal divides. This episode celebrates the strong foundations laid by families and explores the need for sociological recognition of the same values. By highlighting the harmonious interplay of faith and politics, they invite us to reflect on what truly drives progress in our nation.
SPEAKER 03 :
But I have found that if you can earn trust, and I think it's quite possible to do so, that then you can have an authentic, real conversation after you've absorbed and heard what they actually believe and why, and then begin to share why it is we believe what we believe. And I think that healthy conversation and discussion is possible, and it's the way forward. It is the only negation of the polarization that we find ourselves in.
SPEAKER 05 :
That's my good friend Tim Geglein and my colleague here at Focus on the Family encouraging us to engage in respectful discussions while defending the Christian faith. Tim has often modeled that well on college campuses, interacting with students who don't share our conservative Christian views. He has a new book called Stumbling Toward Utopia, which examines the idea of trying to create heaven on earth from a human perspective. And we know as believers that we can never create paradise through man's efforts. Only God can do that. Welcome to Refocus with Jim Daly, a podcast production from Focus on the Family. And by the way, this is the 50th episode for us. And I want to say thank you for listening and supporting us. And I'd like to ask you to do me a favor. Take a moment to give the podcast a rating, like it, and share it with others. Remember, we're listener-supported, so please make a gift to help refocus, continue more great conversations to help you grow in your Christian faith and reach others for Christ. That's what we're about. Tim is always great to visit with, and we work closely together. He always has his finger on the pulse of the country. He's the Vice President of External and Government Relations for Focus on the Family and is officed in D.C. And in this conversation, he'll be offering some reflections on this moment in our country, the need for civil dialogue, and most importantly, remaining anchored in our faith if we want to have a hopeful future. Let's get right into it. Here's my recent visit with Tim Gagline on Refocus with Jim Daly. Tim, it's great to have you joining me again for Refocus. It's great to be here. Yeah, it's wonderful. You know, we often talk on the phone and certainly we have meetings in DC. And so this is kind of letting people peer into that kind of conversation we might have. We have had many great journeys, haven't we? Totally. I mean, it's been a wonderful experience.
SPEAKER 03 :
How long have you been with Focus now? I've been with Focus 16 years, which is really hard to believe. And I will have been in Washington, D.C., 38 years in 2025. It's hard to believe. That's even more hard to believe, actually. It's 10 years.
SPEAKER 05 :
38 years.
SPEAKER 03 :
Wow. 10 years in the U.S. Senate with Dan Coats of Indiana. Good Dan Coats. Eight years at the White House with George W. Bush. Another good man. And 16 years with Jim Daley and focus on the family.
SPEAKER 05 :
There we go. It's been a fun run. And, you know, one of the things as we've engaged over the years and you have probably one of the best Rolodexes in town in D.C., which is nice. And it's, you know, the good thing, too, just to paint that picture, it's both Republican and Democrat. And You mentioned to me several times just how the staff, you know, the staff of either Democrats or Republicans tend to have to interact together and be known to each other, et cetera, working through details of legislation and other things that are being negotiated.
SPEAKER 03 :
Absolutely.
SPEAKER 05 :
It's not like the principals sit down at a table in a restaurant and work this out.
SPEAKER 03 :
That's right.
SPEAKER 05 :
Although that sometimes happens. But it's usually the staff that is engaging, and you've been part of that with Dan Coats and the White House over years.
SPEAKER 03 :
the years you know it's one of the little known things and i'm glad you raise it but washington dc very often is run by a group of really talented 20 and 30 years old yeah it's amazing really in all three branches of government we don't often read about them we don't you know see them or meet them but it's an army of remarkably talented people it's probably a good place to go a confession that's always drawn people in confess so i remember coming into dc for one of our you know meetings
SPEAKER 05 :
And I just had a bad attitude. Lord, I don't want to be in this city. This city is just dirty with power. And, you know, I was just having this conversation with the Lord about how much better every other place is than D.C. And then we went to the State Department. This was back when Mike Pompeo was the Secretary of State. And, you know, I carried that attitude right in there because that building – Those people that inhabit that building aren't big fans of Focus on the Family. They are not. Generally speaking. But I remember when we were waiting, this wonderful assistant came in. She's probably 28, I would think. Ruth was her name. I remember. And she came right up to me and said, oh, Mr. Daly, I love Adventures in Odyssey. And there's a handful of us here at State Department that listen. And it's great to meet you. And I'm so grateful that you guys do Adventures in Odyssey here. It was like the Lord just going, come on, I got people everywhere.
SPEAKER 03 :
I remember in behalf of Focus on the Family speaking at Bolt Hall, which is the Berkeley Law School. This is about as left wing and progressive as you can get. And after I spoke, I had limitless numbers of young first and second year law students come up to share with me the impact that Focus on the Family had on their lives. And the broadcast and Adventures in Odyssey, I mean, it's just everybody had had that common experience.
SPEAKER 05 :
It's so much fun in that regard because we can get kind of disgruntled and feel like we're not moving the needle and things aren't moving our direction. And what I say are, it's like a biblical direction when it comes to life and marriage. you know, what the political class has done to those things. And you go in very low expectations, and then the Lord hits you with this phenomenal response of people that are trying to work their jobs there in D.C.
SPEAKER 03 :
or wherever. It is amazing how Providence works in American history, Jim. You know, the year is 1809. Thomas Jefferson is the president. And lo and behold, who is born in a place called Hodginville, Kentucky, but Abraham Lincoln. It's a short wingspan, American history is. The former president, the author of the Declaration of Independence, the founder of the University of Virginia, one of the greatest Americans, twice elected president, a slaveholder. And here comes Abraham Lincoln, the exact opposite of the Virginia Regency, and this is the man who God would use to stand strong in the Civil War. Never spent a day in a school of any kind, and yet Abraham Lincoln, named for Abraham, one of the senior leaders in world history.
SPEAKER 05 :
You know what I so appreciate about Abraham Lincoln is the way he wove scripture into speeches. And people will say, you know, well, that was cultural for the time. I think it meant a lot to him, actually. And when you read the meaningfulness of his words... He was, you know, he was a lawyer. He chose his words wisely. And I think his reliance upon scripture is replete in most of the things he wrote about. And he did seem to find, you know, you could arguably one of the most pressurized administrations ever during the Civil War and hundreds of thousands of Americans dying. I mean, it did seem to bring him to the end of his human capacity. Yeah.
SPEAKER 03 :
Lincoln wrote the following, the will of God prevails. You know, there's a great debate about Lincoln's faith early in his life and even into the presidency. But by the close of his presidency, murdered, of course, by a Confederate radical on Good Friday in Washington, D.C. At that point, and I think historically we have to say, Providence was in Lincoln and Lincoln was in Providence. Yeah.
SPEAKER 05 :
And what a time in the history of the United States as well. We're past the inauguration now, and this transfer of power that occurs in the U.S. has happened. What are some of the reactions regarding the election, and what kind of change do you see happening in the fair city of D.C.?
SPEAKER 03 :
Well, I feel certain of two big things, Jim. The first thing is that we have just come through one of the most important realignments in American history— I don't think even people who are betting men and women would have ever predicted or guessed that in 2015 coming down an elevator in New York City would be a man elected to the presidency who had never been elected to anything else ever. Not even the school board. That's correct. And frankly, not since the presidency of Grover Cleveland have we had a president elected, defeated, and reelected. So the first thing is the sheer historical nature of what we've all just lived through. I think the more profound answer, I pray, is that the 1960s and the 1970s foisted upon the United States a moral and social revolution unlike anything in our history. And I believe that we are still living with that radicalization. And I think in large measure, Jim, it has given to us the greatest polarization in our nation since the era of Abraham Lincoln and the Civil War. And so I think the second thing to say is that whether you're a Democrat or a Republican, a liberal, a conservative, a progressive, a traditionalist, whatever it is, the internalization of the moment that our country finds itself in in this first part of the 21st century, ultimately I think has to be seeded or understood in light of that radical revolution and what that revolution foisted upon our political life.
SPEAKER 05 :
I think in that context, the takeaway from the election, and I want to get in, and this will be probably a little far from your book, Stumbling Toward Utopia, but it's in the context of what you've written here in this great book. You bet. But it's this consistent thing when we're talking about, as Christians, conservative Christians, as we're talking about those policies that we want to fight for. Yes. This is a republic, so we have a right to vote and voice our opinion and speak our mind.
SPEAKER 04 :
Yes.
SPEAKER 05 :
You know, it's important for us to do that as citizens. And in that context, no, it's not our God. We're not replacing our faith in Christ for political salvation. I think some on the other side actually have seen it that way. In fact, you use that term secular salvation, which I have repeated over and over again, by the way, because I think it does capture salvation. their perspective. But I want to get away from the D and the R a little bit because so often we're each side kind of classifying one another, stereotyping one another with that letter. And I consistently am trying to say to journalists who try to pin me down on the perspective I might have on life, on traditional marriage, which is what we believe here at Focus on the Family, They tried to somehow shame us for those positions or to ridicule us for only being Republican or conservative. And I'm telling them every time. I say, you know what? If Democrats supported life and if Democrats supported marriage, traditional marriage, biblical marriage, you'd find far more conservative Christians in that camp too. So it's not about the letter. They seem not to understand that.
SPEAKER 03 :
It truly is the policies that matter most. I could not agree more. And one of the things I think that defines Focus on the Family is that we would rather strike a match than curse the darkness. And I remember being on a panel discussion two weeks before the election at a major university. And the question from our interlocutor was, what is the major issue facing the United States? And my opponent in this kind of quasi debate was certain that the major issue was the economy with the border and immigration or some mix of that. and i acknowledge that these are major issues in public policy but i said before politics comes culture and before culture comes the things of the spirit and that we at focus on the family believe that the biggest issue facing the united states is a spiritual crisis of the first order it's another kind of recession we hear about the words recession and deficit and we think economics But in the era that we're in, we are living in a spiritual recession. It's real. And the implications for marriage, family, and parenting are enormous. I'm an inveterate optimist, and I know you are too. And there are good things happening. I think a lot of seeds have been planted toward restoration. Pray God we'll see their germination. And I think we're already seeing several of them.
SPEAKER 05 :
You know, one of the things that I've been delighted about is kind of the academic class coming around to this amazing concept that children actually do best in a two-parent home. Now, we've been saying that for 45 years here at Focus on the Family because it's so self-evident. It's a spiritual element to what you're saying. It's upstream from everything. It's an institution that God created, the family, and I think he created it with all the right ingredients, you know, that men and women bring different things to the parenting role. The child benefits from those differences, not trying to be the same. Dad has a certain perspective and sway in the family. Mom does too. And those benefits really trickle down into the children. And that's how you have healthy culture. Some have said the measure of a strong culture is the measure of each family. And I find it, again, refreshing and optimistic that even the intelligentsia of this country are now recognizing that a two-parent home, loving two-parent home, is where the best outcome happens for children.
SPEAKER 03 :
I could not agree more. And I think that in the last 24 months, we have to acknowledge that two of the most important American sociologists, one an MIT-trained economist who is a woman of the left, and another a quite center-center-right sociologist at the University of Virginia, have written two of the most important books, I think, frankly, of the last 50 years, in which they have looked at all of the empirical data. They have measured the empirical data against the outcomes for young children. And they have both, a person who is conservative, a person who is progressive. They have undoubtedly, Jim, landed exactly where Focus on the Family landed the first day we opened our doors and have been saying consistently that there's a timeless reality. And that is that the natural nuclear family is the best incubator for good outcomes, not only for children, but also for moms and dads. And it's good for community. It's good for states. In other words, there's an applicability to public policy. And I think that that's the catalyzing a connection for Focus on the Family in the public square. We are fully engaged, we're in the public square, and we are fully engaged with people who have a progressive view of life and people who have a conservative view of life because this message matters for everybody.
SPEAKER 05 :
It does, and again, it's good that people of the left are beginning to recognize this. That person is Melissa Carney. I actually did an interview with her.
SPEAKER 03 :
I know you did.
SPEAKER 05 :
People can listen to that. Yes. And I thought it was really very strong. And she's taken a lot of heat because she's stepping outside of the kind of the liberal lane to say, wait a minute, the data is irrefutable. And of course, Dr. Brad Wilcox, I'd say a right center man, is saying the same thing in his book, Get Married. And we talked to him about that too. So people can go and listen to those interviews. We've put those links for you right there in the show notes.
SPEAKER 03 :
And Jim, may I mention just one thing very quickly, because I think this is so important. In 1960, this is only 1960, of all children birth to 18, 73% of those children were living in married homes. that number by 1980 was down to 51% and that number by 2015 was barely above 40%.
SPEAKER 05 :
Yeah, I mean it's, you know, when Elon Musk raises the issue about being childless, that we need children. It's the next generation. He's perhaps not biblically, but he is pointing to something that we all understand from a biblical perspective, that children are a blessing, not a curse. And it's as if both marriage and child rearing have become curses. That is so opposite of the truth. Is it easy? No. Of course not. Does it take work? Of course it does. But the benefits, I mean, as so many of us say, you know, who's going to be around your deathbed when you're saying goodbye to this world? It's going to be your family. That's correct.
SPEAKER 03 :
And if you have no family, it's lonely. You know, we have in recorded American history the lowest marriage rates and the lowest fertility rates. But we also have something else, Jim, and I think this is really maybe more important than both of those statistics. We have actually a national conversation going on about this. And I think that that is all to the good. I meet with regularly members of the House and Senate. I'm in the think tanks, the public policy centers. I'm on the campuses. I'm interacting with a lot of, and I say this with great humility, but I'm interacting regularly in behalf of Focus on the Family with not just the powerful, but with also the people who influence things for a living. I promise, as sure as I am having this conversation with you, This discussion that we are having is first and foremost being discussed in think tanks and influential circles of the left and influential circles of the right. And it's for that reason that I think we are moving toward a national consensus on big issues. That's exciting, actually.
SPEAKER 05 :
In that context, let's dive into some of the book content. This is our typical conversation. People are kind of listening into our phone call here, although we're together. But this is the kind of phone call we'll have every week together and say, okay, what's clicking and what's happening? Where can we provide influence to help? And that's something that I think the donor community expects of us and we continue to do and have done since 1977 when Dr. Dobson started Focus on the Family. Let's go to that polarization a little more deeply. You know, you've said in the book that we're probably as polarized as we were during the Civil War. Those are two scary statements, in my opinion. Just being polarized is a problem, but to compare it to the polarization of the Civil War, that was where brothers were shooting brothers and things like that. Yes. I think A, the question is why, and then B, how do we close that gap? How do we narrow that gap? And what role do the Christians have to be the influence, be the example to do it?
SPEAKER 03 :
The question in my time of travel for Focus on the Family, which is about a quarter to a third of my professional time, I speak to left-wing audiences, right-wing, and no ideology. Jim, with pinpoint predictability, with one of the first two or three questions is the following. How did we get into this mess? And you know, in other parts of American history, if you were the speaker, you'd say, tell me more about what you mean. But presently, we know what we mean. We're in a mess. Where did it come from? And after hearing this recurring question for three years, I decided to do my best to answer it. And I found that the reason we're in this mess is because of the radicalization of the sexual revolution of the 1960s. So just a rolling of that movement. Absolutely right. And the 60s do not begin in the 60s. The bad ideas begin at the turn of the 20th century. President Woodrow Wilson, he said the Constitution was outdated. He said the Declaration of Independence was outdated. He said he was uncomfortable with citizen sovereignty and that we ought to have experts run the country. And he wanted to change politics. The founder of the ACLU, Roger Baldwin, he said the legal services in the United States, they're not serving our country well. Too much religion, too much faith. Let's change the definition of justice. Margaret Sanger, the founder of Planned Parenthood, an abortion fanatic, a racialist, a eugenicist, very influential. And she wanted to foist on the country a new sexual revolution. People like John Dewey. Let's change American education. It should not always be about what's right and wrong because moral relativism really ought to replace this idea.
SPEAKER 05 :
You know, in that context, let me just go back to the framers, the writers of the Constitution, the Bill of Rights. They generally, it's argued they were not all Christians, but I would say they definitely had a deep appreciation for religious faith and certainly the Christian faith primarily. But in that context, they talk about how this form of government is not going to be able to extend itself without moral and religious people. that those are the people that will make this country go because we need honesty in the system.
SPEAKER 03 :
Yes.
SPEAKER 05 :
It seems like right now there's dishonesty every direction. Do we have a chance at surviving?
SPEAKER 03 :
Absolutely. The answer is yes. And I believe very strongly the best days for our country are ahead of us. We are no longer at 1968. We're no longer in the Woodstock generation. People, I think increasingly to your point, are saying, if we really value our freedom and our liberty, what do we need to do? And our founders said, if you want freedom and liberty over time, You have to cultivate virtue. You have to cultivate moral excellence, and especially in the rising generation of young people. And look where we're at, Jim. We're having a national conversation and success on school choice, charter schools. By the way, there was a moment at the Olympics, which I think was defining, which is it's one thing to be in an academic lounge and to discuss about whether boys ought to be in girls sports or men ought to be in women's sports. But at the Olympics, we saw a woman boxed in the face. And of a sudden, it was no longer possible just to have a theoretical view of this. And I think overwhelmingly, people of goodwill, left and right, are saying, we ought not have boys playing in girls' sports. We ought not have men in women's sports. So people are coming together increasingly around the centrality of issues that focus on the family has championed for a very long time.
SPEAKER 05 :
No, it's very true. And I think in that context, when you look at those issues, again, put the parties aside, you are seeing what I read in the election, something much bigger than the man. This is much bigger than President Trump. Definitely. It was a rejection of some of that DEI woke-ism that's been expressed in the culture. right at the school board level, right up to the White House. Yes. People seemingly are fed up with having to tell a line that it makes no sense. It's illogical. And they're saying, no, we're not going to pretend anymore.
SPEAKER 03 :
Of all the meetings that you and I have had, I think one of the most important was with the governor of the Commonwealth of Virginia. uh governor youngkin great guy uh you know because uh he was in a debate with a former governor of virginia who wanted to be re-elected and the issue of education came up uh and the former governor of virginia terry mccullough essentially said when it comes to education parents ought to butt out uh we ought to just have the we ought to just have the the administrators and the teachers run the system And the man who wanted to be governor, Governor Youngkin, said just the opposite, that parental rights were central, that moms and dads mattered, that school boards at the local level mattered. And I think, Jim, that was a catalyzing focus on the family moment. Drain it of politics, left or right, it was at that moment about moms and dads raising of kids. And that catalyzed a national conversation far beyond the Commonwealth of Virginia. And that is bigger than President Trump or any other president.
SPEAKER 05 :
Well, and some of that banner language that's come out, which makes sense now when you look at what's been happening, is common sense. You know, that's become kind of the mantra now of those that want to get back to some orientation that is sane and does protect all of those previously probably assumed influences that parents should have at the school that were beginning to wane. Aside from politics, let me turn a corner on that. What are some of the other things that are occurring in the culture that are bringing us down that kind of is outside of the political arena?
SPEAKER 03 :
Yeah, I think that Hollywood... broadly defined, is at the moment in a tailspin. I really believe that. Despite the glittery nature of stars and the Oscars and all of that, I think, Jim, we are seeing something else happening in film. We're seeing films about Dietrich Bonhoeffer. We are seeing a trilogy based on The Lord of the Rings. We are having cultural figures held up that previously would not have been considered in the Hollywood matrix. And I think this is good. I think that we're Americans. We love going to the movies. We're Americans. We love listening to music. It's not always going to be the American songbook and jazz. So there's great music that's being composed again. I think that we are redefining... much of the popular culture for a new era. And I think that that is encouraging. I think the old gatekeepers are realizing that their models are broken because they have been drained of things of the spirit. And of a sudden, we're seeing good television again. You know, it may not be... Kind of common sense themes. Absolutely right. There is, for instance, a pending series on the greatness of David. I mean, who would have thought that this would be possible even 15 years ago because of the former gatekeepers in popular culture? My favorite podcast is Focus on the Family. But look at the explosion of podcasts, the choices that people have. And people are making remarkable choices. They want to go back to the first principles, and they want to celebrate and believe in the permanent things.
SPEAKER 05 :
An example of that is Scorsese doing this thing on Fox Nation, which is really the saints of the faith.
SPEAKER 03 :
Absolutely right.
SPEAKER 05 :
The Christian faith. Yes. Scorsese. And I'm sitting here going, okay, what epiphany has this guy had?
SPEAKER 03 :
But that's part of what you're talking about. One of the remarkable currents in culture, Jim, is that we're seeing an explosion in the number of Bibles being sold to young people. That's exciting. Who have never darkened the doorstep of a church, but of a sudden have realized that much of the culture is so hollow because of the moral relativism and nihilism that's been foisted on us, and they want something better.
SPEAKER 05 :
You know, and we're weaving cultural data into this, but one of the things that is a little discouraging in that regard is the low level of patriotism that exists. Now, again, people both right and left should not excoriate me for saying, well, where does patriotism play? It's not number one, but it is a close two or three. Your family, the Lord, and then our country and its well-being and health. so that our children and grandchildren and great-grandchildren will have a wonderful place to grow up and live and hopefully flourish. Speak to the theme of that, the idea that patriotism plays a role. And I've traveled around the world. I did the international effort for Focus for many years, probably 70 countries. I was so grateful that the Lord chose to put my spirit in this body, well, the body part maybe not as much, but in this country. We should appreciate the blessings that we've been given in the United States and cherish them and nurture them for later generations, not denigrate them, because that's why people are trying to flood in here. This is a great nation.
SPEAKER 03 :
Not many people are trying to flood into China. It's a remarkable and extraordinary nation, and I can't wait to share this. We are coming up in 2026 to the 250th anniversary of the Declaration of Independence. And Jim, I think that this is a near perfect opportunity to revisit the question about why patriotism is important. What was the meaning of the Declaration of Independence? It's a stellar document. It'll be an important document 2,000 years from now. And so I think we have an opportunity as a country, a culture and civilization not to commemorate the Declaration of Independence, but to celebrate it. And then above all, to focus like a laser beam on the rising generation of young Americans and to begin to make it new, to restate the obvious. And we have to restate the obvious by talking about the first principles of the Declaration and the Constitution of the United States, because they are They are consonant with our faith.
SPEAKER 05 :
Yeah. You know, companies pay big money for futurists, as they're called, not in a spiritual context, but just in a business context, to define each generation. So that's where you get authenticity as a definer of a certain generation. And the things that I'm reading right now, a lot of these predictors of core convictions of different generations, when they look at the Gen Zers, which my two boys and your boys are part of. Yes, indeed. In their 20s. Yes. They're saying that generation is more like the builder generation, the World War II generation, that they – have solid convictions. They're generally fairly quiet. They want to live it out. There's actually a lot of positive news in that for we Christians. And it's just a matter of that generation then being more exposed to spiritual truth. But they seem to be very fair-minded in their development right now about what they believe, fairly black and white, kind of core values-oriented people, tired of the kind of... you know, the hogwash of what's going on. Are you seeing that and hearing that when you speak at college campuses?
SPEAKER 03 :
Yes. And in fact, I find, Jim, that the people who are most critical of the rising generation of young Americans are almost always people who spend no time with them. They sort of believe these cartoon accounts. But you have to go to the campuses. You have to go be with these young people. And the thing that I find is that they are impatient for all the right things. They have lived through enormous amounts of brokenness. They have lived through Wokistan. They have lived through erasure culture, cancel culture, DEI. It's like a grocery list of bad ideas that have impacted them. And yet they have come through and they're soulful and they want to be married and they want to have children. But a lot of them don't know this idea of a natural nuclear family with a mother and father who work hard at it and who want to be together to do life together and to come through in a way that is so good for everybody. And I think young people are hungry for this. So I think we have an immeasurable number of opportunities. And I think it's the reason that focus on the family is more important today than the day that we first opened our doors, because the culture has had so much brokenness since then.
SPEAKER 05 :
Yeah, so true. You know, in that context, somebody I did an interview with, and I thought it would be a great interview, Heather Holloman, who's an adjunct professor, I think, at Penn State. And she wrote a book on communication. It's called, I believe, The Six Questions or The Six Conversations. Yes. But people could look that up, Heather Holloman, or contact us at Focus on the Family. We have the books here. You can get them directly through us. But in there, you know, Jean, my wife, started reading that. And I remember sitting as we normally do, having devotions in the morning. And she said, this is one of the best one or two books I've ever read. I was like, well, tell me more about that. And she said, it really equips you to simply ask good questions, which is disarming to somebody who opposes you. So rather than attack the person and try to go toe-to-toe in a debate style, I win, you lose, zero-sum game. Her recommendation, like the Lord, is to get at the root of where they're coming from, which opens their heart up to your input. So why do you have such a conviction about this, whatever it is, fill in the blank, gay marriage or whatever it might be, and just begin to solicit response about where did this come from? How did it develop? Where did you formulate your thoughts from? And it's a very disarming way. It has to be sincere, obviously. Yes. But it's kind of like what Jesus did, right? He would say to the woman at the well, you know, basically, tell me more about your situation, even though I know everything about you. Or the woman caught in adultery asking the question, well, he who is without sin, let him cast the first stone at this woman caught in adultery. And they dropped the rocks and walked away. Yeah. Speak to that technique, which I would say is a godly approach to opening the human heart. How do you do that on a campus with these blistering students that are so liberal they're in your face?
SPEAKER 03 :
I have learned from nearly 40 years in Washington and from limitless numbers of campus visits in behalf of Focus on the Family, a gym, that the season of silence is very often more important than the season of speech. It's very difficult, often, to sit down in a coffee clutch and just spend that time merely listening to people who have a fundamentally different worldview than we do. But I have found that if you can earn trust, and I think it's quite possible to do so, that then you can have an authentic, real conversation after you've absorbed and heard what they actually believe and why. and then begin to share why it is we believe what we believe. And I think that healthy conversation and discussion is possible and it's the way forward. It is the only negation of the polarization that we find ourselves in.
SPEAKER 05 :
Tim, you've had a couple of experiences where students have really kind of gotten in your face, one around the issue of abortion, another one, I think, around the LGBT issues.
SPEAKER 03 :
But speak to both of those or one of them. I'd be pleased to. The first one was at a major public university that I'm sure everybody listening would know, and I shall leave unnamed. And I gave a set of remarks in my role as vice president of Focus on the Family. And she was the first one up in the Q&A. And that's fine. We had never met. And she spent an inordinate amount of time letting me and others know what a terrible viewpoint it was to be pro-life. And she was very categorical about this. And she wanted to make a strong case for no exceptions. And she felt that this was the most important civil rights issue of her life and of our time. And I listened to her. I wanted to hear every argument she had to make. It turns out that she was one of the leaders of the reproductive rights group on her campus. And what I began to do is I began to ask her, may I ask you a few questions? And she said, of course. And I said, I'd like to begin by asking you, you're very zealous in your position of no exceptions. I'd like to ask you, do you know the number of abortions in America just since 1973 when Roe versus Wade happened? was foisted on the country by the United States Supreme Court. There was a bit of a silence. And I said, do you know what this number is? And I finally said, after she didn't know, I said, this number is approaching 70 million. I said, this number is as high as every citizen of the United States of America who lives west of the Mississippi River and several countries in Europe. And it left Jim a blanket of silence across that auditorium. That's kind of a core data point for both sides. I mean, that's breathtaking. She didn't know the number. And my goal was in no wise to embarrass her. I listened to everything that she had to say. but I felt that she was so zealous in the advocacy in opposition to the innocent pre-born. And obviously on her campus had a measurable amount of influence that I thought maybe a number like this would help refocus the way that she thought about it. And I think it clearly did. Yeah.
SPEAKER 05 :
I mean, and again, in that context, the pro-abortion leadership and communicators have been You know, unfortunately, very successful at separating a woman from the life that's inside her. Absolutely. I mean, emotionally, that it's just a blob of cells. No, that's a human being. Separate DNA. You can make all the arguments, but it's only an issue of nurture. And, you know, hopefully more and more people will come to that conclusion over time. But it's a long fight.
SPEAKER 03 :
This is like ending slavery. No, it absolutely is. And, of course, the abortion debate in most of the places where this is discussed in public policy, people who are most zealous for abortion very often never use the word abortion. They have been trained to use a language that is rooted in social justice. Yeah, fetus, which means offspring. And you get reproductive freedom, and you get all of the issues except for what it is. And may I say similarly, on a small elite Northeastern campus, I was invited to speak, and it was a very well-attended event. And I was told by the director of student services that there was an agreement on that campus that whether you were a speaker of the left or the speaker of the right, that every student was obliged to be seated while you were speaking to wait until the end of your speech. And then, you know, certainly a fulsome Q&A and conversation. I said I was quite comfortable with that because I knew where I was going was not commodious to the focus on the family worldview, which is mostly why I wanted to be there. And just a few minutes before I began to speak, a person walked in to the hall, the lecture hall, and stood up and stood next to me for the- At the lectern. Yes, for my entire- That's a little intimidating. For my entire set of remarks. And I decided that I was not going to make an object of this person. And just as I was finishing, this person unraveled himself from a particular set of symbols and and masking taped them to the wall of the lecture hall and walked out. And the director of student services was there during my entire remarks and did nothing. And I wasn't then or now angry, frustrated, or bitter, but I thought to myself, And as I responded to this after this person left, I said, I think we now need to have a fulsome discussion about the meaning in this part of American history of free speech, free expression, but also civility, magnanimity, the kind of give and take that gives us the kind of constitutional republic that is worthy of the founding fathers and mothers and the ideal that they wanted for our country. So I think these kind of things that in and of themselves can seem to be negative and seem to be impactful in that way. I think that if we as Christians will take a deep breath and see it for what it is, and I pray with civility and magnanimity and goodwill, I think if we try to then speak to the higher ideal and the better angels of our nature, I believe we can genuinely engage and change the debate.
SPEAKER 05 :
You know, it's interesting. You mentioned the ACLU earlier and the founder of that. It's kind of oxymoronic, really, because I remember in the 70s when I was in high school and 80s in college, you know, the ACLU was known for free speech. And that's what they fought for was the First Amendment rights of so many people, particularly minority groups. And that was its brand. And now it's the oxymoronic application is this person who's long been dead, the founder of the ACLU, they've actually now began to fill what I see as their original mission which is actually controlling speech. And Alan Dershowitz I think who used to be very sympathetic toward the ACLU I think even worked with them as an attorney. is now saying those very same things, that they're fighting the very core thing that they fought for in decades past.
SPEAKER 03 :
You know, I write about this in Stumbling Toward Utopia, the irony that you're raising. And I use the ACLU as example number one, because the founders designed the First Amendment particularly to defend people's religious liberty and rights of conscience. That was the entire point of amending the United States Constitution. It's the first amendment in our 10 Amendment Bill of Rights. But Jim, what a terrible irony. that the First Amendment has now been weaponized against people of faith. It has been weaponized against the sovereignty of human conscience. This was exactly the opposite of why we fought and won the American Revolution and ultimately had the United States Constitution ratified.
SPEAKER 05 :
Yeah. I mean, the whole separation of church and state, it was to protect the church from the state, not to protect the state from the church.
SPEAKER 03 :
Yes.
SPEAKER 05 :
That's such a fallacy. And even, you know, Thomas Jefferson, I always laugh at this because he used to have a Bible study at the Capitol. Yes. Thomas Jefferson. Yes. And he used to invite the Marine band to come and play at his Bible study as part of his duty.
SPEAKER 03 :
And you know, in Stumbling Toward Utopia, I write at length about Saul Alinsky, the writer of the most influential book of all of the 1960s and 70s. rules for radicals. And you know, Jim, you and I, and all of our Focus colleagues, and I'm sure limitless numbers of people who are listening to us have had at least one conversation when people say something like, isn't it terrible we're so polarized? I mean, isn't it terrible that we've come to this moment? But as I demonstrate in Stumbling Toward Utopia, in Rules for Radicals, rule number 13, Saul Alinsky said, let's celebrate polarization. You have to target your adversary. You have to make an example of your adversary, and then you have to polarize the arguments. This is exactly the opposite of what our first president, George Washington, warned of in his famous farewell address, which is that we needed to foster harmony. We needed to foster unity. We had to look for those areas, as he says in the farewell address, where we're united as a people because it's good for the country.
SPEAKER 05 :
You know, you think about that, Galatians 5, which is the listing of the fruit of the Spirit, you know, those things of joy, love, peace, goodness, kindness, mercy. And then the other fruit. Satan's fruit is also listed in Galatians 5.19. It's divisiveness. I mean, there's sexual stuff mentioned in there, but disunity, division, lying. And you start looking at those spiritual applications of those two kingdoms, you might say. And once again, when you're celebrating division, you're celebrating an attribute of the fruit of Satan's not the fruit of the Spirit, which is unity and love and goodness and goodwill toward others. And that is God's character. Exactly right. Tim, we have a few minutes left. Let me drive into a couple of thoughts here. One is the church. There's so many great quotes about our inability, Dr. Martin Lloyd-Jones being one, our inability to affect the outsider, we can do much better work holding each other accountable within the church, making sure we're doing the right job. And by doing so, you're influencing those outside the church because we're living, hopefully, the faith so well, people are attracted to it, which was the first, second, third century in Rome. The Christians of the Roman Empire were so different, caring about others, saving babies thrown at the dumps for infanticide. Abortion existed then, and being able to adopt these children as their own. That was the work of the early church, along with so many other things. Where are we at in the church today? You see this great division on core issues like life where people are justifying the fact that God doesn't really care about the preborn child. It's not a baby until they take their first breath. All these excuses, I would say, for murder. And then on the thing of gender, you know, that God creates this male and female. Jesus himself said, you know, a man and a woman shall come together. The two shall become one flesh in marriage. So he's recognizing two genders. So speak to this division in the church, the watering down of the gospel, the watering down of scriptural truth. and what price is being paid by various churches for those decisions.
SPEAKER 03 :
In Stumbling Toward Utopia, I write this in an entire chapter. I showed that the United States of America was founded by dissenting, believing Protestants. And these dissenting, believing Protestants were tolerant enough to welcome other faith traditions into our nation. But what I show in the book, Jim, is that what we used to call the Protestant mainline, beginning much earlier than the 60s, but culminating in the 60s, was they removed biblical orthodoxy from the Protestant mainline, the very things that had given the church vitality, the very things that had armed the church to be such an influencer in culture and in the public square. And in and by the 1960s and 70s, overwhelmingly, the Protestant mainline had been hollowed out. They had removed biblical orthodoxy as the center of their faith life and their community, and they substituted it with a political progressivism, which became their faith. And as I demonstrate in Stumbling Toward Utopia, I actually share the numbers. I share the numbers of where these denominations, synods, faith traditions were. They were booming as the 1960s opened, and Jim, and it didn't take very long, but by the 80s and 90s, they were complete shells of themselves. Yeah, losing 40, 50, 60%. Exactly right. And so as you drive around America, especially in our urban core, you see limitless numbers of Lutheran, Methodist, Baptist, Presbyterian, Episcopal churches. Some of them are doing quite well. And the ones that are doing very well are almost overwhelmingly the ones that retained biblical orthodoxy. But for the majority of what we used to call the Protestant mainline, the church, they have completely fallen and there's nobody there.
SPEAKER 05 :
You know, it's so sad, too, because here at Focus on the Family with the life issue again, you know, the ebb and flow of that. This current administration, we didn't say it earlier, but there doesn't seem to be an indication that they're going to be very concerned about the life issue. Now, maybe that will emerge in a different way. And we certainly appreciated the overturning of Roe v. Wade. That was quite an accomplishment. But even then, I said, this turns a federal national battle into a 50-state battle. And that's what's happened. And, you know, thank the Lord for Governor DeSantis in Florida and beating back that aggressive, progressive, as they say, legislation to kind of put into the state constitution of Florida kind of. unfettered abortion, no matter what period of the gestation is or anything like that. My point being, we continue to be Orthodox Christian means we stand in the face of this cultural wind. We don't bend to it. We stay steady. We repeat what we believe to be scripturally accurate and true, that God cares about every one of us in the womb, outside the womb, To the grave. Yes. And this is his domain, not ours to take life. That's it. You can beat me. You can burn me at the stake. You can do whatever you want. I'm not going to give up on that. And the culture will ebb and flow. But our goal is to be the beacon of light to draw consciousness toward this issue, especially with those that don't embrace that. You are killing human beings. Period. End of statement. And we're going to continue to say that until remedy occurs.
SPEAKER 03 :
Mm-hmm. In all of the developed world, abortion is no longer an issue. If you go to all of Western Europe, if you go to Canada, to most of the places that you and I would say are the first world economies, abortion is not really an issue. It's lost. But it's gutting the church. That's the point and connection. It's gutting the church's spine. Right. except for the United States. Because in the United States, Christianity remains alive, well, and engaged. And in fact, it would be impossible to understand the most important social achievements of American history apart from the role of the church. If you want the abolition of the slave trades, you have to look to the church. If you want to look to the achievements of the civil rights movement, you have to look to the church. And ultimately, the pro-life battle will be won in large measure because the church remains fully engaged. And that means we have to be extremely comfortable with setbacks. You know, when the United States of America was founded, we were a population of two million. That's amazing. 1.5 million American residents and citizens and 500,000 enslaved. It takes a long time. It's a long way from 1776 to the Civil Rights Bill and the Voting Rights Bill of the 1960s. There's a lot of setbacks. You know, if you look at the abolition movement, it takes a long time. It's going to take a long time in the pro-life movement, but actually we're winning.
SPEAKER 05 :
And that, again, connecting that to the church, we need to be that voice steady over the arc of time, whether that's 50 years in the case of Roe v. Wade, 100 years at the state level.
SPEAKER 03 :
We need to stand steady. I think it's a great question Jim to ask why was Roe versus Wade? Actually overturned and it's typical to say well because of the Supreme Court That's actually not the answer The reason that Roe versus Wade was overturned is because people like us were in the streets for 50 years 50 50 years 50 years gets us to Dobbs and you know, and the overturning of Roe. But 50 years does not get us to the abolition of abortion in America. We have a lot of work to do. But you know what? Setbacks or no, we're going to be there tomorrow morning.
SPEAKER 05 :
You know, in that context, Tim, this idea of biblical principle coming to life. My prediction is these states that are allowing restrictions on abortion, I think we're over 100,000 babies born now that most likely would have been aborted. Correct. Just looking at the sheer numbers. So you start looking at these states where there's a promotion of life. I think that will kind of seep into other areas of biblical principle. So do I. Where you will have flourishing over death. Spiritually, it's shalom, God's peace. And I'm really curious as we progress in this new 50-state battle approach to life, how that in predominantly red states where life is being embraced – what the outcome of that will be compared to what I'll call death states, your deep blue states, California and others, where you can have an abortion for any reason. And people always go to the, you know, the exception list of rape, incest, health of the mother. That's less than 2%, 3%, 4% of the abortions. Over 90%, 95% of abortions are selective. You know, I just don't feel like I could do that right now. And we get that hardship. We don't want to diminish it. But it's not for the reasons that they trot out, which are the emotional strings. And that's what we're talking about, man.
SPEAKER 03 :
Yeah. I love this remarkable moment in the life of Abraham Lincoln, who did not begin as an abolitionist, but he certainly closed as one. And he was asked, why are you now an abolitionist? What is it? And I love Lincoln's response, Jim, because it's so fleet and it's so applicable to the pro-life movement. He said, it's unjust and it's immoral. And he also said, as a pragmatist, it's bad policy. And I think there's a lot to learn from Lincoln as it applies to the pro-life movement in the 21st century. That's the common sense.
SPEAKER 05 :
Let's end here with the revolutions. You talk about three revolutions. The obvious one is the revolution of 1776. But describe that context of revolution. And are we seeing the potential for another revolution? And what does it look like?
SPEAKER 03 :
I think the American Revolution was mostly not a radical revolution. I think it was actually a conservative revolution. It was a concretization of what became the Bill of Rights, the Constitution, and the Declaration. And I think it was all to the good. But America did experience a French-style, Bolshevik-style revolution in the 1960s. That was the lowest point, the nadir for the United States of America. It was really a frontal assault on all of the things that we hold dear. On traditional values. Yes, and it was frankly a takeover of our most important national institutions. And I think that that was the profound revolution. But I think we are now moving into contested ground. And I actually am quite hopeful about the next chapter of American history. We're not gonna look like 1776 or 1876, and pray God, not like, you know, 1976. It's gonna look different. But I believe very strongly that it's not about what does the majority think at any given time, it's how committed is a remnant to the first principles, how committed is that remnant to remaking it. And I think that good days, very good days are ahead. And I actually think that we will begin to see a shift and a tick upward in fertility and in marriage. Because I think there are millions of people who share our worldview, broadly defined, and want something new and they want something better for the next chapter of our beloved country.
SPEAKER 05 :
And a crazy end point here, our good friend, Dr. Brad Wilcox from the University of Virginia, and his research in his fairly new book called Get Married, because all the positive outcomes that come from that. His point, ironically, is with the elites of this country, they tend to marry and stay married and raise their children. So his comment, his breathtaking comment is do as they do, not as they say. The exact opposite of the parental... You know, the perennial parental comment.
SPEAKER 03 :
Yes, I'll close on a great up note. I was speaking at Georgetown University in Washington to a very large group of undergraduates. And at the very end of my remarks, I said the following. Please remember this. Marriage is a really good thing. Being a parent is really a good thing. I said, I remember looking into the eyes of my sons, Tim and Paul, for the first time. I was there when they were born, right? What a magical, extraordinary moment.
SPEAKER 05 :
Scared to death, love it experience.
SPEAKER 03 :
Yes. And I said, in all my years at the White House, I said I was having dinner with my two sons as this came to a close. And I said, what was most memorable to you in these years? And my oldest son said, oh, that was the day that we had the big snowstorm and you decided to stay home. and we went sledding and we had a snowball fight. And I thought to myself, that was the most memorable. But you see, there's something in our DNA. We're made for relationships. We're made for each other. And marriage, family, and parenting is a kind of daily miracle. And I think we have to rediscover in the next generation in America, what is that miracle all about? And I feel confident that though it's tough, it's the best way forward. Well, that's well said.
SPEAKER 05 :
The third revolution, I think, is underway. May it be. May it be, and may the Lord prevail. Amen. Amen. Your great book, Stumbling Toward Utopia. What a great read. It's not a heavy lift. So for people to get a good tutorial on what's been happening, this is a great resource. Thank you, Tim, for being with us on Refocus. Such a pleasure. God bless. Well, it was so good to have Tim on the podcast again. I admire his optimism for America, and I hope you've been inspired today. I think one of the things that I'm most encouraged by is a movement of young people who are hungry for biblical truth. They're looking for authenticity from people in the faith, not political theology. Several of my guests on Refocus have talked about revival that's happening among today's youth on college campuses. If we stay true to God's word and keep sharing the message of the gospel, that's the way to reverse the terrible damage of the 60s revolution that continues today. But to have a spiritual revolution, it's going to require major engagement on the part of believers. We need to act now for the We need strong families, strong male role models. We need to teach our children well and represent Christ in our communities well. 2 Chronicles 7.14 says, "...if my people who are called by my name humble themselves and pray and seek my face and turn from their wicked ways, then I will hear from heaven and will forgive their sin and heal their land." shouldn't that be all of our prayers refocus is here to help equip you to engage the world with god's grace and truth and one way you can help support the podcast is by asking for tim's great book stumbling toward utopia and with the gift of any amount to the podcast we'll send you a copy as our way of saying thank you details are right there in the show notes All right, for the inbox segment today, here's a voicemail from Noah.
SPEAKER 04 :
Hi, Jim. I know there's no such thing as a perfect world, but I have progressive friends who are highly invested in trying to make it a better place through social causes. Yet, they're not plugged into the Christian faith. How can I help them understand that Christian principles work best?
SPEAKER 05 :
Noah, I love your heart. And there are some resources here at Focus that have helped Jean and I. One is Heather Holman's discussion that we had with Focus on the Family. I'd direct you that way. She talked about six key conversations that you have to have. And the essence of what she's saying is be interested in those you're talking to, be sincere, and then ask really good questions to better understand where they're coming from and acknowledge those things, and then begin to present a perspective that could be different from them. And the way you do that is be really knowledgeable about the Word of God. You've got to know the Word. Also be up on current events. We've got a great team of incredible people who analyze major policy issues in the culture that affect your life. It's called Daily Citizen, and you can sign up to get that daily email at and read up on what's happening in the culture. It's brief. They just select 10 items every day, and they will send it to you free. It's just something we like to do to build into your ability to speak to someone like this. Thanks for the question, Noah. And since I answered it here on the podcast, I'm going to send you a copy of my book, Refocus, Living a Life That Reflects God's Heart. Now, if you have a question for me, please send me a voicemail by clicking on the link in the show notes. I'd love to hear from you. Thanks for listening to Refocus with Jim Daly. You can help us inspire and equip more people by telling your friends. Also, like, listen, and subscribe wherever you get your podcasts. Next time on Refocus, Brad Formsma, founder of ilikegiving.com, will help you to see the eternal impact you can have for Christ by being generous with others.
SPEAKER 02 :
I also pray this prayer. Lord, would you be so pleased to have people ask me why I'm happy or why I did that for them? You know, it's because I realized that Jesus did something special for me and he's a friend and he loves you.
SPEAKER 05 :
That's coming up on Monday, February 10th on the next Refocus with Jim Daly.
SPEAKER 01 :
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Pastor Brady Boyd, author of Life-Minded, challenges believers to live authentic Christian lives, engaging others with the love of Christ, and showing respect and kindness to those who may hold a different worldview or political position. While emphasizing the truth of God's Word, Brady reminds you that your opponents are created in God's image as he encourages grace and compassion for them. He states that Christians need to look past the exterior persona and tap into the three core needs that every person has - to feel connected, to feel safe, and to feel a sense of purpose.
Read this article about the Biblical perspective on government.
Read this article for more on forgiveness.
Read this article to protect your marriage from the negative effects of social media.
SPEAKER 03 :
So think about now your political opponent, the person that you would call dirty and disobedient. What happens if that person makes one step towards you? What is our response? Do we stand there on the front porch with our arms folded and say, I told you so. I told you that your decisions were terrible. No, that's not what God did. God runs toward dirty and disobedient people. And I think that's the church today. The church is on the earth. that will run toward the dirty and the disobedient are the ones that God will bless.
SPEAKER 06 :
That's Pastor Brady Boyd sharing about our calling as Christians to create unity with others whenever possible in a divided culture. Welcome to Refocus with Jim Daly, a podcast production of Focus on the Family. Brady says that sin is at the heart of what leads to quarrels and factions. When we turn to the world, for answers rather than to God. We find division on abortion, racial and ethnic issues, politics, and belief systems. And that creates a challenge for us to lead the way as Christians and love others as Christ first loved us. Man, that comes through experience as well. I can remember being in college and being pretty aggressive with some people that didn't walk the way I thought they should walk, and I had to bite my tongue. And you want to open their hearts up through friendship and connection, and then be able to speak to them about many of the issues you might observe. That takes more time, more patience, but I think it's exactly what the Lord was talking about. There is something about knowing someone with sincerity that cracks open their heart to what you have to share about where they're at. And boy, sometimes it takes us a while to learn those lessons. My prayer today is that by God's Spirit, you'll be able to show patience and kindness with others, even when there's a legitimate reason for disagreement. That's why I have this podcast to try and point you to Christ and equip you with ideas to build bridges and reach others for him. We desperately need that in the Christian culture today. Brady Boyd is the pastor of New Life Church here in Colorado Springs. It's where Gene and I go to church. He's written a great book called Life-Minded, Eight Practices for Belonging to God and Each Other. So let's jump into this practical and I think enjoyable conversation on Refocus with Jim Daly.
SPEAKER 03 :
Brady, great to have you on Refocus. I am so glad to be here, and I love talking about this. I think when I'm with you, I feel like we could probably talk for a few hours today on this topic, so thanks for having me.
SPEAKER 06 :
Well, I feel like we're bone of each other's bone, and we get this together. And of course, I go to your church, New Life, here in Colorado Springs, just a mile up the road, which makes it convenient for you to pop in here. Yeah, you're like my big brother.
SPEAKER 03 :
I've never had a big brother.
SPEAKER 06 :
Okay, I feel glad to be your big brother. Hey, you know, in this way, Life Minded, we covered this on the Focus on the Family broadcast, but I wanted to bring it into the Refocus context because on Refocus, what we're trying to do is talk about culture, where Christians intersect with culture, how we need to do that as best as we can. I guess the first thing is just this constant conflict. I know both you and I have being leaders in this city. We get attacked frequently. from left center and left, sometimes from the right. And it's just so constant today. There seems to be this growing riff in the culture.
SPEAKER 03 :
I've never seen it more divided and more separated ever in my lifetime. And I feel like I've tried to stay steady. I've tried to stay in a place where Jesus is first. I still love his church. I've tried to stay focused on that first and politics as secondary and cultural issues are secondary to that. And what happened is the right went further right and the left went further left. Yeah. And I told someone the other day that the only problem about being in a center middle is you get shot at from both sides. You really do. And you're never extreme enough for either side. And obviously, I'm never going to be an extreme left person, but the Christless right terrifies me as much as the Christless left. In other words, I only can hang out with people who are pursuing Christ, who are thinking about Christ, they're eager to learn about Christ, or they are following Christ. But if you have no interest in Jesus, it's very hard right now to have conversations with people because their views tend to be pretty extreme. I agree.
SPEAKER 06 :
And, you know, again, let's plow into the division, then we'll come back and talk about the way we ought to be the solution as far as we think, right? Yeah. But you mentioned in the book college graduations are even now demonstrating this division. What's happening in that college setting?
SPEAKER 03 :
Well, everything is being separated into race or class or some type of identity. So now there are multiple colleges around the U.S. who are having – graduations for blacks only or for Latinos only or for LGBTQ only. And so we tend to separate ourselves and divide ourselves over things that should be bringing us together, you know, that we work so hard. Yeah, graduation. Right. You know, we work so hard in our country. And I know that America is not perfect, but it is a great experiment. And it was called at one time the Great Melting Pot. Remember, immigration, even 150 years ago, was celebrated in our country because this was the one place on the planet that you could leave Italy or Ireland or England or come from South America and you could land on the shores of the United States and have an opportunity to. regardless of your race, regardless of your gender in many cases, to make it. I mean, you could make it into the middle class here if you were willing to put the work in. And now it seems like that's got washed away somehow, that we don't celebrate the fact that we're the great melting pot anymore. Now we've become tribal. Like if you're not exactly like me, you don't believe exactly like me, then I'm afraid of you. And if I'm afraid of you, then I'm going to be, I'm angry at you. And I find that to be disturbing right now. We need to get back our sense of belonging to one another.
SPEAKER 06 :
I mean, partly that occurs because groups benefit from that. I mean, whether it's political power or some kind of power that, you know, if you hang together in a certain category, it could be immutable things like the color of your skin or where you're from, your heritage, your race, Or maybe even professionally, I mean, or spiritually, certainly. You know, here we have the atheists, the anti-God community that really spends a lot of time attacking us. I'm thinking, if you don't believe in God, why are you so upset with us?
SPEAKER 03 :
Just let us be. Well, you hear this on broadcast, too, depending on which network you're listening to. But basically, it's the same message. The other side is evil. The other side is out to get you. And we're the ones that are here to save you from them. And so if you begin to believe that, then what happens is you get sucked into these algorithms and into these echo chambers where all you're hearing is that the other side is evil. They're out to get you. They're going to destroy something that you love. And we are the ones who are standing between you and the people that want to hurt you. And that just feeds into the base human nature. Tribalism, 2,000 years ago, we survived because of tribalism, because there were enemies out trying to get you. But if you hung out with your people and you built forts around your village, then you were safe. And that's really built into our human DNA for our own safety and protection. But it also works against us as Christians, because the Great Commission blows all of that up. Go into all the world and make disciples. Judea, Samaria. The fact that he mentioned Samaria and that charge, like go into all the world and in the book of Acts, you know, Judea, Samaria, the uttermost parts of the world. He mentioned Samaria because that's the one place Jewish people didn't want to go. That was a cultural no-no. It was cultural taboo. They would walk around Samaria to get to where they were going. And so this is not a new problem. This is a 2,000 year old problem where we have to be willing to step over some dangerous boundaries, boundaries that we think are dangerous, to actually reach the people that the Great Commission calls us to reach. It's going to require some risk. It's going to require some faith. It's going to require us to going into places that we once thought were dangerous.
SPEAKER 06 :
You know, I remember in college, I can't remember the series we saw. It was Alistair Cook or somebody like that on the history of America. And he talked about de Tocqueville, who came in the 1800s and surveyed America as a French. I think at the time he was the foreign affairs minister of France. But he wanted to see how does America work? And his conclusion was America works because America is good. That he found in the churches the kind of the fiber that holds America together. Isn't that, A, it's interesting that that was so observable then and that he knew America would only be able to hold together America. if that fiber of goodness found in the churches could be sustainable.
SPEAKER 03 :
I've read that document many times. He was astounded at how many people actually attended church. Right, the percentage. Because in Western Europe, Eastern Europe, church attendance was already in mass decline. This was 150, 60, 70 years ago. But he said, he couldn't believe how many people gathered in places of worship He could not believe how moral the people were, how willing they were to cross over those political, those ethnic boundaries to help one another. And he thought America was a great experiment. And he gave us about a 250-year prediction. He predicted that America would hold itself together for 200 to 250 years. Boom. And here we are. Yeah. And I think he was a prophet in some ways, but he had also studied other social collapses. He had studied history. He had seen how other republics, and we're a constitutional republic, he had seen how fragile those republics could be, how easily they could dissolve, and how easily they could be divided. And he said America will hold itself together because of their moral fabric, for 250 years. But after that, he said, I don't know what will happen. And so here we are, in a couple of years, we'll celebrate 250 years and we'll see if he was right or not.
SPEAKER 06 :
And it seems to be, I mean, many people have this observation that we're hanging on by a thread right now. And can that thread be strengthened or will it be a snap in the culture?
SPEAKER 03 :
The only hope that we have, and I know I'm a pastor and I'm speaking from a great deal of bias here, but the local church is the hope of the world still. And at my church, at New Life Church, we have young and old, black, white, and brown people, Asian people, people from every, I don't know, 40 or 50 countries that come to my church. We have men and women. We have rich, poor, middle class. It's an unbelievable blend of people, and that's not happening anywhere else in my city. where people come together, maybe at a sporting event or something, we might have that kind of diversity, but they're not coming together with the same single-minded purpose as we do at church. We're there to pray for one another, to check on one another. We're singing the same song. We're hearing the same sermon. We're coming to the same common communion table. That's where unity can burst forth. That's where unity can be obtained is inside the local church. And that's the reason, I believe, that the enemy hates the local church and is attacking the local church. Because if the local church ever loses that sense of identity, if the local church ever dissolves in America, that is the last dam break. There is a great torrent of evil that will pour into our country if the local church falters.
SPEAKER 06 :
Yeah. Let's ease into some of the political discussion just to have a bit of a back and forth on that. We're through an election, roughly half the country's happy, the other half isn't, and it was the opposite four years ago. One of the things I've observed, I wrote about this, is this idea that the secularists, those that don't have a faith in God, they tend to put a lot into the election, what I called secular salvation. And it does have that structure, like it has a catechism. This is how you talk about abortion as a woman's right to choose. So it has a language, it has a fierce bit of things you need to abide by. And I think talking to some of the Democrats that I've talked to, and now it's starting to break that they, some, don't agree with biological boys being allowed to play in girls sports. They weren't able to say that and the few that have spoken up now have been pummeled and said they need to resign. But it's interesting how truth is kind of breaking through in these bits and pieces. I think the question on the right now, I think we have similar problems. We tend to believe salvation can come from Air Force One. It's not going to be there even for us as Christians. And maybe the question would be like, A, how do you see that where the left, they do tend to look at this more like this is my God. Yeah. And therefore the fall is harder. Yeah. But the right too, when we lose, and I'm right center, I would say, it has an effect. But I would think most of my friends said, okay, Lord, you're in control. This is your will. And we'll pray for those in authority over us. But if you move a little further along that continuum, you have some out of control people on the right as well.
SPEAKER 03 :
No doubt about it. I told my church that politics are vital. but it's not the final thing for us. We have a king that's already been established on the throne. Jesus is already on the throne. Jesus is king, he is Lord, and therefore our hope for our future, our hope for our salvation is already certain. So I do believe politics are extremely vital because it produces policies that affect people. And really it came down in this last election. I think America made a pretty strong statement that they still believe in the individual freedom. They still believe in some type of morality. They still believe that men are men, women are women, and that the family unit needs to be honored and cherished more than it was. So I think there was a resounding statement that came from that election that I think was heard loud and clear. And I think that was a good thing. Now, We have a president who does not represent all of my values. And while he is probably the lesser of two evils, he's still somebody that we need to pray for. Here's my prayer for President Trump is that he surround himself with good people. We've watched this in the past where nefarious characters connect themselves to power. They are seeking power and he has power right now. So I'm just praying that in the quiet places of the White House, in the quiet places of where he's making decisions, that there would be three or four wise voices that speak up when critical decisions are being made. I just know that that's the way the Lord... You know, the Bible talks about directing kings and how the currents of water can be directed by the Lord and how kings can be directed by God. I think that's how that happens. He puts key people next to the king, or the president in our case, who give him wise counsel at critical moments. So you don't have to agree with his morality. You don't have to agree with his character choices. But there are going to be seven or eight key moments in his presidency in the next four years where a decision one way or the other is going to affect millions of lives. Immigration would be one of them. I think there's going to be some military decisions that he's going to have to make. There's a couple of economic decisions that he's going to have to make. And I pray that in those moments, wise men and women who are being filled with the Spirit would have access to him and nudge him just slightly toward the right thing. And that's been my prayer. And I think that's the way we should pray. And I would be praying that same prayer if the other group had one. I'd be praying the same prayer. So I think that's the way I'm helping my church see this, that four years from now, we're gonna have to make another decision, and it's all gonna be... It's every four years. Every four years.
SPEAKER 06 :
It's so much fun. So much fun. Brady, let me go a little deeper in this whole area, because there's... Like you said, elections have consequences. People come into that administration. You've got nearly 4,000 political appointments that are made, and those people usually are pursuing policies through the administration, the agencies, all of that.
SPEAKER 04 :
Yeah.
SPEAKER 06 :
But with that, the deeper spiritual thing that I wanted to ask you is, for a while, I think the truth of God's Word has been covered up by worldly things. We can't call a woman a woman. You gotta define what a woman is now. You gotta go to these extraordinary links to say, what do you believe is a woman? And then you negotiate that. It's bizarre. It's not just basic truth. My supposition is God may tolerate that for a while, but his truth will continue to emerge in any culture that tries to bury it. It may take time, but it's like God's truth and his nature is not going to be covered for long.
SPEAKER 03 :
Well, the darkness has never overcome the light. We know that. The light always breaks through. But it requires Christ's followers to proclaim it, too. So the Bible doesn't proclaim itself. It requires us to believe it, to proclaim it, to teach it, to open up our Bibles. And I've been telling my church, I know this sounds old school, but we need to get back to reading our Bible every day. Yeah, isn't that the truth? I mean, think about that. Totally. And when I was a kid, that was kind of a given that all the Christians were reading their Bibles. I'm not so sure. I think Bible engagement, every study that I have seen in the last 10 years, shows a steep decline in Bible engagement. And for those of you listening, I would just encourage you, first thing in the morning, before you scroll through your, you know, the Twitter, doom scrolling through Twitter, before you turn on some podcast and get your mind contaminated with opinions online, Open up the word. And I'll tell you another little habit, Jim, that I'm finding to be helpful is I'm reading the Bible out loud to myself.
SPEAKER 06 :
Oh, that's good.
SPEAKER 03 :
So what I find myself doing is reading it out loud and it's proclaiming something over my home.
SPEAKER 04 :
Yeah.
SPEAKER 03 :
So I can read it silently and, you know, digest the word that way. There's nothing wrong with that. But I read it out loud because my house is going to get filled with all kinds of noise that day. But the first thing I want declared over my home, over my family, over my children every day is the word of God. And so I've been reading the book of Proverbs a lot because I've been, you know, we need wisdom right now, discernment. And I think the book of Proverbs talks about your morals, your money, and your mouth, you know. And I think I've been reading that and declaring that and speaking that. And then I've been reading the Sermon on the Mount, Matthew 5, 6, and 7. I've just been rereading the Sermon on the Mount and reading that out loud over myself and over my church. Those are the two things right now that I would just encourage people to do. Read the Bible every day and read it out loud.
SPEAKER 06 :
Yeah, which is so good. You know, so often, I mean, I've been trying to tack in this zone. And let's spend a few minutes talking about this. I'll read a scripture and have you bounce off of it. But one of the things that is so frustrating living as a Christian in this life is you do read the word and you go, okay, now I know how I'm supposed to behave. And then something gets under your skin. Something is irritating and your flesh reacts. And I think you've mentioned some great things about, and we're going to talk about them, about thinking before you speak, the power of your words, death and life are in your words, etc., But so often people say, God, Jim is so great. You're tacking the ministry toward engagement with people. I'm like, so I'm reading the Word, right? But listen, 2 Timothy 2.22. I just want to get your response because it's kind of an outline of this is how you should behave. But it says, "...flee youthful passions and pursue righteousness, faith, love, and peace, along with those who call on the Lord from a pure heart." having nothing then this is the cable news part having nothing to do with foolish ignorant controversies you know that they breed quarrels yeah that's interesting to me so the lord's not looking for quarrels yeah and the lord's servant must not be quarrelsome but kind to everyone seriously brady kind to everyone do you know some of the people i engage yeah i mean then it goes on let me finish it then i'll get your response able to teach patiently enduring evil. Really, Brady? We need to be patient about enduring evil? That's godly? Are you sure about that? Correcting his opponents with gentleness. Oh, that's boring. God may perhaps grant them repentance leading to a knowledge of the truth and they may come to their senses and escape from the snare of the devil after being captured by him to do his will. Wow. Wow. I mean, that's it. Let's just do that for the rest of our lives. But that's the problem.
SPEAKER 03 :
Doing that is so complicated because of our flesh. Well, did you catch what Paul was saying there is that Paul was reminding us, or to Timothy, to a young Timothy, that Jesus actually came to save everyone. And our mission is to participate with Jesus in his attempt at bringing salvation to the world. So is Jesus concerned about American politics? Yes. But is Jesus more concerned about people knowing him and spending eternity with him? Yes, a resounding yes. So the most important thing for Jesus is not for American politics to get it right. It's for people to know him. And so think about what's happened, Jim, in these last, I don't know, eight or nine years, where the people who vote differently than us are our enemies instead of our mission. They're actually my mission. They're POWs. They are POWs. These are people that Christ died for. Christ loves the world. He came for the sake of the entire world. And I have wrestled with my pastor friends. I have some friends in the ministry that have really doubled down on politics. And I hear them say things out of the pulpit about that other group and how they're evil and how they are wicked. And I thought, okay. Is there evil and wickedness happening? Yes, but is there a better way for us to address evil and address wickedness without corrupting our relationship with people that we're trying to reach? And I'll say this, you know, this year at New Life Church, I had to make a decision again. This is my fifth time, my fifth presidential cycle. Five times I have been senior pastor at New Life Church when the presidential election was happening. This was by far the easiest one. And even though the culture is more divided, because we made a decision a long time ago that Jesus was going to be central at our church, and we talk about politics, we talk about the issues. I did a sermon this summer on gender. I did a sermon this summer on evil and on violence. I talked about marriage. I talked about... All those things. So I've addressed the key cultural issues, but I didn't do it in a way that I was attacking people. I did it in a way to educate people, to inform people, and to reach people. And this year, in the middle of the most contentious political cycle in our nation's history, at least in the last hundred years, We baptized over 750 people in an election year. So people were coming. People were coming. And you know what I found? We actually did a deep dive on who was being baptized. We found a majority of the people being baptized had no church background. Oh, wow. They're unchurched. They're showing up. They're listening to me. I'm not yelling at them. I'm not mad at them. I disagree with them. I have a different set of conviction than them, but I was welcoming their questions and And in the 40-year history of our church, we had a record number of baptisms right in the middle of an ugly, nasty, contentious political season. I just think people are hungry. They are really thirsty right now. And we need to give sinners a cup of cold water, not a knuckle sandwich, right?
SPEAKER 06 :
But the knuckle sandwich is so much fun. But it is true, and I think that's part of it. Jesus did this perfectly, obviously, but when he would engage people, he'd ask questions. The woman at the well, the woman caught in adultery, he asked a few questions in a few directions there. But it was this steady truth statement without this hyper emotion, obviously. Go and send no more. And Paul, yeah, go and send no more. And oh, not only are you, haven't been married to those five husbands, you're not married to your current man. But, you know, very bold statements. And I think the question is that I want to ask you regarding that. is that talent, that capability of separating the emotion, speaking truth boldly, but not making you the reason a person might reject the gospel. Right. You got to make the word and its truth the reason somebody rejects the gospel.
SPEAKER 03 :
You can be bold and prophetic and convicting and kind at the same time. Because, listen, my personality and my communication performance is not the reason people get saved. It's the work of the Holy Spirit that allows people to get saved. None of us are saved unless the Holy Spirit reveals Jesus to us. And I believe that. I mean, at some point, our eyes are open, like the prodigal son who was feeding pigs on a farm. And the Bible says when he came to his senses, he realized that he was better off as a servant at his dad's house than feeding pigs on a farm. And at that moment, he turned and started walking toward his dad. And my favorite part of that story, and I keep this in mind when I'm talking to people that I know are away from Jesus, when that dad saw that son coming home, he ran toward his son and that is that destroys a whole bunch of cultural norms of the day when jesus was telling the story because the the dignified landowner the wealthy city father did not run toward people people came to him right so this this destroyed their idea of god in a good way because he said no let me tell you about a god who actually runs toward dirty disobedient people So the son is disobedient and his son is dirty. And this is God picking up his, I can imagine him gathering his coat and running toward his son. And the Bible says he grabbed him and hugged him and kissed him before the son could ever even confess and repent. The father already has his arms around him. So think about now your political opponent, the person that you would call dirty and disobedient. What happens if that person makes one step towards you? And just out of curiosity or maybe out of conviction, they start coming back to you. What is our response? Do we stand there on the front porch with our arms folded and say, I told you so. I told you that your decisions were terrible. No, that's not what God did. God runs toward dirty and disobedient people. And I think that's the church today. The church is on the earth. that will run toward the dirty and the disobedient are the ones that God will bless. How do you balance?
SPEAKER 06 :
I love that because I think it's true. It's the metaphor of God in the scriptures. And I mean, it's all over that he was accused of being a sinner simply because he would hang out with sinners, right? Boy, did they miss the mark on that one. But this concept of engagement, Romans 2.4 says, don't you know it's God's kindness that leads one to repentance? When I'm speaking with audiences, I'll say, does anybody here have a testimony that goes like this? Those Christians were so mean to me. They treated me so horribly. It was the anger of a Christian that led me to Jesus. I decided to become one of them. I've never heard that testimony. It's always like I was mad toward them. I was angry toward them. But they kept responding in love to me. And I couldn't figure out why. And that's more typical. of the testimony. But what a thing to remember, not to go out of your way to be hated. Let the gospel be the offense. And hopefully someone will say, I'm coming to my senses. I mean, that's what's beautiful. You identified three core needs that every person has. Now, everybody should write this down, go slow, repeat it into your notes section of your smartphone. But what are the three core needs that every person has?
SPEAKER 03 :
Yeah, feeling connected, feeling safe, and a sense of purpose, right? And I think that first one, feeling connected, we are now living in the loneliest time in human history. But we're hyper-connected. Hyper-connected, super lonely. And my kids are 20. You have kids the same age as mine. Yep. And that generation, they're online more than they are in person. Most of their lives are lived on Wi-Fi and not in small groups or not in churches, not in family meetings anymore. They're connected socially and it's done something to our soul. And I think we are the most disconnected group of people on the planet right now. And so that's the reason we're so disunified while we're fighting, when we're fussing, because we don't know each other. I'm surprised at how little people know about me as a person. It's like they assume things, but they don't really know me. And then I think there's this sense of purpose that we need to have. We've got to get back to our calling. I'm preaching through 1 Corinthians at my church right now, and we're in that part of the Bible about eagerly desire spiritual gifts. And as I was studying that text to preach that to my church, I realized, am I really eagerly desiring spiritual gifts like I did in my 20s? Because I'm in my 50s now. And I had to stop and pause, Jim, and just make sure that I was fanning into flame the gifts that are in me, that I was reconnecting to the purposes of my life and reminding myself that my race is not finished. And making sure, quite honestly, that I was still running toward the finish line that God had for me, that I had not been distracted. And so reminding ourselves of that purpose. And the third one is about feeling safe, about being connected to a family, a friendships, a church. I feel safest when I'm around people that I know love me. and that I love them. That's when we really feel safe. And I think that's why the enemy wants to divide us and why he wants to strip us of those relationships because if we ever, you know, we're most vulnerable when we're away from the pack, when we're not running with our group. That's true. Yeah, when we somehow, we've been separated from the people that love us, we're isolated, we're alone, we have access to all this digital stuff that's in front of us, that's when the enemy does, he's a wrecking ball to our soul many times.
SPEAKER 06 :
Yeah. You know, I love that I've seen that painting or a picture, I can't remember, but it's a wolf with one eye from behind a tree. And you can just see that one eye looking at you. And I thought that is John 1010, the thief, or in this case, the wolf comes to steal, kill and destroy. And it is true of the enemy. This is exactly his bidding every day, every minute, every second of our lives.
SPEAKER 03 :
One of my favorite stories that I tell people is I was on a safari one time in Africa and And we were going, we were in southern Kenya, going to the Masamara. And there was a pride of lions on the road right next to us. And we were kind of in an open air Jeep. There was nothing to keep them from jumping in the Jeep with us. No roof. And so I asked the Kenyan guide, I said, shouldn't there be more protection here? He goes, you are protected because you are in the Jeep. They see this as a big smelly animal that can't be eaten. He said, the only time you would be eaten is if you get out of the Jeep. And I thought, I will stay in the Jeep. Isn't that a good metaphor, though? That's what you're saying. I shared it with my church. It's like, that's when you're most vulnerable is when you're not in the Jeep, when you're not in the group, when you're not riding with a group of people.
SPEAKER 06 :
You mentioned a story in the book that we shared, actually. I think it was 2022. We had that mass shooting here at a gay nightclub in Colorado Springs. And I think we both got blamed for that one. We had spray painting on our rock wall out here at Focus on the Family. People accused you of having blood on your hands. So, you know, and I think both of us kind of responded with the right thing, which is to say this is tragic. It's unfortunate. It's terrible that the person did this, et cetera. We pray for the families, all the right things. And they were heartfelt. I know coming from you, it would be, and from me too. But people didn't, especially those that would not respect our position on sexuality, did not feel the same way.
SPEAKER 03 :
Well, I have never called for violence against a group of people because of their sexual orientation. I've never done that. And I think that's the assumption. I think there have been enough Christians who have gotten it wrong that we're all kind of put in the same box. But there's many more of us, Jim, that... We understand human dignity and human frailty. We understand the brokenness of humanity. And while we would disagree with their lifestyle, I would never have any sense of hate or anger toward a person because they're getting it wrong. I have a great deal of empathy and compassion for the human condition. And, yeah, it was hurtful for some of the things that were said about me because I was sincerely sad by young men and women losing their lives in a gay nightclub. That was awful. And it was a blight on our city. It was an awful act of violence that will forever mark our city. And I was very sincere in what I said and what I posted about being sad, about caring deeply for their families who were about to go into a holiday season without loved ones. But man, the anger and some of the things that were said in response to that, it was painful at times. But we also are always going to be misunderstood. I think that's the thing we got to get used to. Being misunderstood comes with the calling.
SPEAKER 01 :
And Jesus said that.
SPEAKER 03 :
They will hate you because of me, is what Jesus said to his disciples. Your family will abandon you. People will despise you. And people will hate you because of me. They hated me. you know, that Jesus was the perfect one. They hated him and crucified him. So why does it surprise us when we are also hated for our stand, for our views, for our convictions? I think we just got to get used to it and expect it and not be surprised when it happens.
SPEAKER 06 :
Yeah, it's so true. And I think there's everything that we've talked about so far, that ability to stand and deliver truth very calmly and let that be the conviction. Let me go a little deeper on that topic of sexuality and the culture, because it, you know, really that has been bubbling for probably 50 years, but in the last 10 years, you know, it kind of emerged as this mountainous powerhouse. I think some of the pushback through the election and even the woke stuff, the pushback on the woke stuff and social media and what we're seeing right now, again, is that truth emerging that we've got to be right-minded about identity and those things. So when you look deeper into the sexual issues, why does that become so core? It becomes the foundational thing for a person. And this happens in heterosexual addicted men with pornography and women. It can happen in that natural, more natural setting, I guess I would say, but also in same-sex attraction, transgenderism. These are all false issues that we pursue as human beings.
SPEAKER 03 :
Well, in the beginning, God created man and woman. So this is an attack against God's original design. The XXXY chromosome was God's idea. Men and women, marriage is between a man and a woman. There are only two genders, men and women. And so all of this is an attack against God's design. And so it's a way to distort the creation of God. It's to confuse, to distort, to invalidate God's original intent. This is what's been going on now for since creation. The enemy hates the fact that God created a perfect man and a perfect woman and a perfect paradise and gave them dominion over a perfect world. And all of that got distorted with sin. And so since creation, I believe that the enemy has done everything he can to distort our sexuality. It's a perversion of our... Pornography is a perversion of our sexuality. That's all it is. I mean, so it's a cheap imitation. Sin is always a cheap imitation of the original design. And I think that this is a great fight of our generation is to make sure that we win this. I was just in Ireland and Scotland and in England, and it's a mess in Western Europe right now. It is a bona fide mess. I talked to Christian leaders in the West, in Western Europe just this past summer, and And they are all saying, please do not lose that fight. Once your schools and once your universities have become really discipled into that false ideology, it is very difficult to win that next generation. So there are about two generations already that they've lost to this ideology, and they're paying a steep, steep price for it right now.
SPEAKER 06 :
Let me ask you this. Talking to 20-somethings, you know, often they'll say, you know, this is Christian community, 20-somethings. Strong on life, we believe in life, but on the marriage issue and the definition of marriage and who we should tell can love each other, all those lines, they're much more, in my opinion, observing them. They're much more timid about that. They don't want to be out there too far. They don't want to get involved with another person's decisions in that regard. And these are young people in the church. How do they get a little more backbone? And again, not to be controversial, but to speak life into these people.
SPEAKER 03 :
Well, we know the old adage, what one generation tolerates, the next generation will celebrate. And that's what happened. My generation began to tolerate it, and now my kids' generation is celebrating it. Yeah, that's good. And so at some point, we have to hold firm to our convictions and preach the truth in love. But hold firm to our convictions and do a better job of explaining why marriage between a man and a woman is such a good idea. I think one of the reasons that my kids' generation are postponing marriage and not even getting married until their 30s is because they haven't seen enough marriages that they admire. Think about, they've grown up, 50% of the marriages that they've seen fall apart. And they've seen the heartache of that. They've seen the pain of broken homes. They've seen the pain of divorce. Why would you want to put yourself through that if half the marriages don't make it in American culture? Why would you take that risk? And so I believe we have to do a better job modeling marriage, showing them the beauty of marriage. In fact, I've seen a movement in the last couple of years, get married, have kids, it's the best time of your life. Getting back to telling them that. I tell my kids that all the time. Hey, find a good husband, find a good wife, have children. It is the best thing you'll ever do is to find a good spouse, have babies, raise them, go on family trips. Pam and I have tried so hard to model. I've been married 35 years. And we've tried to model that to our kids, how much fun it is to come home every day to your best friend and have support, have someone waiting for you at home that loves you, that's your best friend, to have a meal every night with your best friend. That's what marriage is. And so we have to get back to talking about that.
SPEAKER 06 :
We do, and it takes some effort. It just doesn't happen without watering, without tilling the soil, without nurturing the plant of your marriage. We talk about that all the time here at Focus on the Family, and we have Hope Restored. We have a number of resources for couples to make sure that they're doing the right gardening of their marriage. But let me ask you this. Being a pastor, we're seeing so many examples, and no one's perfect. I get that. And those temptations are out there for everyone. but we're having such continuous failure in leadership within the church. That also speaks to our teens and 20-somethings going, wow, if they can't do it, how am I going to be able to do it?
SPEAKER 03 :
Well, fewer and fewer young people are going to seminary. We're about to have a massive crisis in America for pastors. Fewer and fewer young men and women are saying yes to being pastors or even going to seminary, and it's for that reason. They're looking at—I had a young man tell me the other day, Jim, he goes— Brady, I would like to be a pastor, but I'd rather be in business because I can do things in business that would get me fired as a pastor. And he said it's just too risky for me. And I think it's a very complex question what you're asking, why are we having so many pastoral failures? I think some of it is systemic. I think we've set pastors up to fail by not properly surrounding them with proper accountability, proper even resources. We've not honored them. And in some cases, we've not held them to account. We have allowed performers in our pulpits instead of pastors. And I think we have to get back to shepherds. I think young men and women are being discipled by the stage and not by sages. And I think right now we need to get back to being sages and putting good people around us. Like I've been pastoring now for 30 years. I've been at New Life for 18 years. We've never had scandal. We've never had any sniff of it. And part of it is because every day I wake up and I make sure my own heart is clean, and I surround myself with good and godly men and women who will speak truth to me and wouldn't let me be a knucklehead. I mean, the first hint of me being a knucklehead, they would break my kneecap. And I want them to. That's pretty severe. Yes. Spiritual kneecap. Yeah, spiritual kneecap. Maybe my physical one if it was that bad. But I do think that church has to be the place where we get this right. And I do agree. If we can't get it right at church, well, who else are we counting on to get it right?
SPEAKER 06 :
Well, and that kind of sums up the whole discussion when we talk about the church. We expect the world to behave like the church, or we get upset at them, to subscribe to a standard they're not even aware of. Right. And then we are really lax on one another. Right. Oh, my gosh. Allowing ourselves to live in such a way that there's no discipline.
SPEAKER 03 :
The church should be this. I love this. Eugene Peterson helped me put some language to this one time. I was at his house. He said, Brady, he says, when people come to church, they should experience what it would be like if Jesus were already king on the earth. It should be the king. In other words, they should get a hint of what the kingdom of heaven should look like. It will look like. When Christ returns in glory to judge the living and the dead, the creed says his kingdom will have no end. But you should be able to experience a bit of that when you come to church. You should see holiness and unity and love and kindness, a conviction inside the church. He says when those things are missing inside the church, the church looks like the world. Right. And then we're done. Right.
SPEAKER 06 :
Let's just cover one more area here. And that is the power of the tongue. We alluded to it. There's life and death in the power of the tongue. I don't think today with social media, if we extend the tongue to the typed messages that we send out on different platforms, what do you say about that? And then connect that to the pilot analogy that you use. It's really good.
SPEAKER 03 :
Yeah. Well, I think, I mean, first of all, my words start with my thoughts. So if I don't have my mind under control, if my mind is not governed by the spirit, Romans chapter eight, the mind governed by the flesh is death, but the mind governed by the spirit is life and peace. That's Romans chapter eight. So it starts with making sure that the Holy Spirit is in control of what I'm thinking and what I'm feeling, because your mouth always betrays your heart. I mean, I tell people that all the time. If you want to know what's going on in someone's heart, just get them to start talking, start asking questions, because at some point in a few minutes, maybe an hour later, Their mouth will betray their heart. What's inside will come spilling out. So as Christ followers, we have to do a better job of making sure our inner man is settled and peaceful. I woke up this morning and before I got out of bed, before I did anything, I said, come Holy Spirit. And why did I do that? Because I know today that I'm going to need the Holy Spirit. This guy walked up to me and goes, Pastor Brady, do you need the Holy Spirit to go to heaven? I said, you need the Holy Spirit to go to Walmart. Are you kidding me? You need the Holy Spirit for everything in your life. And including your words. And listen, just in the last three or four weeks, I have made some serious mistakes with my words. And I was in a meeting with a group of guys recently, and I was such a knucklehead. I got aggravated. I got upset. I did not handle it well. I let my frustration spill out. We were talking about a really important topic that I thought I had all the answers to, and I messed up. I mean, so listen, I want to tell you that all of us, if we're not careful, can get this wrong. So I was on a flight not long ago and I noticed that the pilot was walking around the outside of the plane checking the engine and he was walking underneath the plane and then he came back on the plane and he was sat in the cockpit and he got out this tablet and he and the co-pilot were checking things off. I mean, it's a pretty exhaustive... Yeah, the pre-flight list. Yeah, a pretty exhaustive process. And I was sitting there thinking, I'm so grateful that they take this pretty seriously because we're about to be at 35,000 feet in a metal tube... So I'm grateful that they go through the process of system checks. I think that's what we need to be doing every single day. The reason that I think our words are so toxic is we're not doing heavy evaluation of our soul. And we are not carefully guarding what's coming in. Therefore, what's coming out of our mouth is corrupt and it's vile, it's aggravated. And I think that's because we're not taking the time to do healthy personal inventory every day.
SPEAKER 06 :
Right. And do that checklist. In fact, you said you need to go through that checklist before you say something. Please. So how do you actually do that when you're in that meeting, if you were to go back and everybody's a knucklehead in the meeting? No, it was mostly me. What do you think to correct or to arrest that thought before it goes out through your lips?
SPEAKER 03 :
Well, looking back on that day, I was already emotionally tired, and I was reflecting on this just this week. My father-in-law had just been put in hospice. I was dealing with one of my adult children who was having a bad day, and I had already tried to help them. I had done some coaching that day with another pastor who was having a really hard time. So I went into that meeting emotionally depleted. And I think you have to be aware of where you are. I probably should have just rescheduled the meeting. But I walked into that meeting already tired. already aggravated by what I thought they were going to do. And I didn't handle it well. And I think that's what we have to realize. Like I walked in here this morning, I actually had a really good weekend. I had a really restful day before I came here. If this were the meeting today, if we'd had the same meeting today, that meeting would have went totally different. Oh, that's interesting. Yeah, because I'm rested. I'm spiritually full. I am physically rested. And I'm the best version of myself right now. But we have to recognize when the batteries are low.
SPEAKER 06 :
Yeah, that's fair. Yeah. The other tool here, which I loved out of your book, Life Minded, is to think of other people as an image bearer of God. You know, sometimes that's easy, Brady, when they're nice to you. Yeah. I see the image of God in you and your kindness toward me. The Imago Dei. Do you know the president of Planned Parenthood? Really? I can think of her as an image bearer of God when she's destroying the image of God in women's pregnancies.
SPEAKER 03 :
Yeah. Well, that's the result of sin. But if you look back, I always try to think of someone like that or someone that I would consider vile or evil or corrupt. I think back to at one point they were a little boy or a little girl being held by their parents. being nurtured by their mother, being cared for by their dad, and what went wrong. I always think about, I wonder what happened in their soul. I wonder what happened along the way at school or at home that caused their minds and hearts to turn that way. Because they didn't start that way, they started as a child. as a baby, they started out as innocent. And if I can think about them that way, and then it can help me get through what I'm looking at in the present, if I can think about their past and where it went sideways, and maybe I can help redirect this somehow. Maybe I can help rescue it.
SPEAKER 06 :
I remember I was in D.C. and the Antifa crowd. So they were out on bicycles and filming people and antagonizing people. And I can remember these two women that came up to me and they looked the part, super tatted. You know what I mean? And rough. And this one woman is talking to me and the other woman's filming with her camera. And she's going, blankety blank, can you be at the White House? And we were a bunch of people that were leaving the White House at the same time in suits and ties. We weren't hard to identify. And I remember she just was like blow torching me. And I remember I had a sense of peace that came over me. I said, could I just ask you, how was your relationship with your dad? And she just stopped. Like it hit her right between the eyes.
SPEAKER 03 :
Tell me about your childhood. Tell me about your parents.
SPEAKER 06 :
The other girl stepped in and said, you go ahead and go. And then she took over to insult me and film me all at the same time. She was quite talented. But the point of that is, you're right. There is usually something in there that isn't healthy, that's not right. And if you could, especially through the help of the Holy Spirit, be able to look that person in the eye and give that word that arrests them.
SPEAKER 03 :
We know that hurt people hurt people. And so when someone's being hurtful towards you, try to identify the pain. And you did that. Tell me, I know you seem angry right now. Tell me what that's coming from. Tell me when this issue became important to you. And get them to talking about themselves, talking about their story, not argue with them. I just don't have energy anymore to argue or debate like that. But I am interested in the human condition. I am fascinated by human stories and how they ended up in that place. I'm fascinated to find out how did you end up here today? Tell me why this is so important to you. There's a reason. Yeah, tell me, your emotions are really strong right now. Tell me, when did this issue become so emotional for you? And getting people to talk and calming down, being peacemakers. Not peacekeepers, but peacemakers, bringing the Prince of Peace into every chaotic situation.
SPEAKER 06 :
Brady, one of the things, I talked to a... older black man who was telling me about what his life was like as a youngster growing up in the inner city and he said you know we would be rascals in the street we'd be looking to do some mischief and there'd be some uh old dudes sitting on the porch two or three of them and they would sort us out they'd be yelling at us boys you get home or i'm gonna tell your mother what you're doing he said the problem today is there's no black men sitting on the porches anymore and And I went, wow, what an insight.
SPEAKER 03 :
Yeah. For all of us. Yeah, no doubt about it. The power of men, the power of fathers, the power of the strong male who is able to speak discipline and life and correction and boundaries into young men and women. There's a story recently in Chicago where a group of teenagers ransacked the downtown area. shopping area. I mean, just really tore up, destroyed some cars, set some things on fire, and it was all over the news. And, you know, it was another reason for racial stereotyping. And some of those things were coming out on social media. And it was really, it really made the city of Chicago sad that they had to go through a night like that. So a couple of nights later, I love this story. A group of black dads from several local churches in Chicago went to that same neighborhood and marched down those streets and calmed everyone down. And actually, there were some kids there that were going to do some other bad things that night. walked up to these group of teenagers and says, not tonight. This is not right. Stop it. Go home. And everything came to peace. I got one more story that I did not put in the book. But in my hometown of Shreveport, Louisiana, there was a high school, a predominantly black school, that they had had several fights in the cafeteria. I mean, people, it was all over the news. Kids, 50 or 60 students getting in these massive brawls inside the cafeteria. So a group of black dads started volunteering in the cafeteria. And they had matching t-shirts on, like Dad Squad, I think is what the name of their group was. And so about 13 or 14 of these strong black men started showing up every day at lunchtime with their Dad Squad shirts on. And sitting at the cafeteria tables, there were no more fights the rest of the school year. Wow. That's the power of dad. That's the power of father. The power of man. We talk about toxic masculinity, but I'm talking about healthy masculinity. Coming into places of chaos and violence and calming everything down. I think that's the design that God has on men. is to come into those places of chaos and to be peacemakers.
SPEAKER 06 :
That's so good. Brady, right at the end, you know, I'm a member of your church. I'm, in the right way, so proud of your leadership, what you've done since 2007, coming up from Texas, taking over from a disaster, really, from the former pastor there at New Life. But you've done some great things in the city, and I think when I talk about examples of how to engage, and we as the body of Christ, we put so much pressure on pastors to do it, and we're just coming to get fed, when the idea is we come together as a body of Christ in order to get replenished so we can go Do the work of the Spirit, not expect you to do it. Be the sent ones. But you've done some great things here in Colorado Springs, like Mary's House. I think when I look at what I would call orthopraxy, orthodoxy is speaking the truth, and you do that well. But you've added this great dimension of orthopraxy, doing the Word, especially in your community. Speak to that, the conviction of that, and the results of that, what you have seen in life-changing transformational engagement with people that had nothing.
SPEAKER 03 :
Yeah. Proverbs 19.17 says, He who gives to the poor lends to the Lord, and he will repay you. And that was the scripture the Lord launched me on. Back in 2010, we began asking one question to anyone that would have a lunch with us, anyone that would meet with us. what are the greatest areas of pain in our city that are not being reached? And so I had 20 meetings with leaders, both nonprofit leaders, governmental leaders, church leaders, and we discovered that there was a group of women in our county that were living in their cars and parked with their kids and they had nowhere to go. And so we bought an apartment complex, paid cash for it. We bought several other buildings in that neighborhood. And now we have 20 moms with their kids. Last night, it was very, very cold here in Colorado. Snow on the ground as we record this. And I was thinking about them this morning, that there are 20 moms with their kids that slept in a really nice, warm apartment last night instead of in their cars at a park. We have a state-of-the-art medical clinic. Thanks to Focus on the Family, we have a 4D imaging machine inside that clinic. and we're saving babies' lives every week in there. Pregnant moms are coming in, considering whether or not they should abort their baby, and we're showing them really lifelike images of their child, and they're holding their babies months later. So thanks for that. But I do think that the church has to grow legs again. We've become very comfortable coming into a building, listening to a sermon, singing a few songs, and going home, when the idea of church was to send you out. was to fill you up and send you out, fill you up and send you out to a mission, to a calling that's on all of our lives. We're all called to the Great Commission. And I want to remind everyone that's listening and watching to pray for your neighbor, pray for those who don't know him, and go out into the whole world and make disciples. Yeah, do something with that as well.
SPEAKER 06 :
Do it, go. Pray and go. Pray and go. I like that. Brady Boyd, great to have you with us. Thank you for your book, Life-Minded. What a great resource. Thanks for having me. It's always good to visit with Pastor Brady Boyd. Great words of wisdom from him today with a reminder to live for Christ in such a way that others will come to know him. As believers, we're called to live by the fruit of the Spirit from Galatians 5. Love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, gentleness, goodness, and self-control are the fruit of the Spirit. And I'll remind you what Brady said about these core needs we all have, feeling safe, connected, and having a sense of purpose in our lives. Given this fact, the best news we can offer someone is to point them to Jesus where all three of those needs are met. And I want to encourage you to get a copy of Brady's book from us. It's called Life-Minded Eight Practices for Belonging to God and Each Other. When you make a donation of any amount to Refocus, we'll send you a copy of the book as our way of saying thanks. Your donations really do make a difference, and Refocus is listener-supported, so your gifts are vital to help us keep bringing you good discussions on the culture like this one today. Now let's turn to the inbox segment. Here's a voicemail from Katie.
SPEAKER 02 :
Jim, I'm curious what suggestions you might have for getting outside of my comfort zone and spending more time with others who think differently than me. I really need my Christian fellowship and depend on it to survive, but I'm not around unbelievers very much. So how can I begin practicing to build those relationships?
SPEAKER 06 :
Katie, I so appreciate that. I remember when I came to work at Focus on the Family, my good friend who hired me here, Peb Jackson, who's now in heaven. But Peb said to me, you have got to work at developing relationships with non-believers because now you're going to be in this Christian bubble. I was coming out of the business community where I had plenty of opportunity to mix with the world. But he warned me, you know, if you get into this environment, you're going to church on Sunday, you're working at a Christian organization, you have got to work at having relationships outside of the church. And that was such good advice. And I have tried to do that. And it's been very fruitful. It keeps you sharp. I remember when I worked in the secular business environment, I just felt more, in the healthiest sense of the word, on edge for the Lord, like I was pensively about knowing where people were at spiritually and knowing, hopefully, just what to say at the right moment to move them along toward a relationship with Jesus. We need as Christians to be sharp like that, to be sharp like a sword so the Lord can use us for his good. So thank you so much for your question. And because I answered your question here on the podcast, which I will again say is Go out of your way to make friends with nonbelievers. I'm going to send you a copy of my book, Refocus, Living a Life That Reflects God's Heart. And I'd love to hear your questions and comments. Please send me a voicemail by clicking the button at refocuswithjimdailey.com. Thanks for listening to Refocus with Jim Daley. Tell your friends about the podcast and like, listen, and subscribe wherever you get your podcasts. Next time on Refocus, Tim Geglein, our Vice President of External and Government Relations, will encourage us to submit to God's authority to reverse some of the secular trends we see in American culture today.
SPEAKER 05 :
But I have found that if you can earn trust, and I think it's quite possible to do so, that then you can have an authentic, real conversation after you've absorbed and heard what they actually believe and why. and then begin to share why it is we believe what we believe. And I think that healthy conversation and discussion is possible, and it's the way forward. It is the only negation of the polarization that we find ourselves in.
SPEAKER 06 :
Hear the rest of that conversation on Monday, January 27th on Refocus with Jim Daly.
SPEAKER 01 :
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Annie F. Downs shares her heart to help Christians embrace the fun in life and reach others in the process. She tells stories of finding friendship in unexpected places and how you can do the same.
Read about Coming Home to join God's family.
Dr. Carl Trueman, professor of biblical and religious studies at Grove City College, will help you understand Critical theory and it's impact on your world. From sexuality to social justice, Trueman explores the failed philosophies of Karl Marx and the Frankfurt School, providing historical context and describing the evolution of these ideas in our culture today. He'll discuss the consequences of Critical theory and how Christians can respond to its various movements in society. This episode features an intriguing discussion, as well as a thought-provoking Q & A with college students.
Listen to Jim's conversation with Rosaria Butterfield on ReFOCUS with Jim Daly.
Get Heather Holleman’s book The Six Conversations: Pathways to Connecting in an Age of Isolation.
Read this article to learn about the relationship between Socialism and Christianity
