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In this heartfelt episode, Dr. James Dobson and Dr. R.T. Kendall sit down to explore the profound topic of forgiveness. Many struggle with the idea of forgiving those who have wronged them deeply, and today, Dr. Kendall provides keen insights into how true forgiveness can set us free from emotional baggage. We delve into common misconceptions about forgiveness and outline what it truly means to let go without excusing harmful actions.
SPEAKER 03 :
You're listening to Family Talk, the radio broadcasting division of the James Dobson Family Institute. I am that James Dobson, and I'm so pleased that you've joined us today.
SPEAKER 01 :
Well, welcome back for another edition of Family Talk. I'm Roger Marsh. Let me ask you a question. Have you ever caught yourself saying, you know, I just can't forgive him, not after what he did to me or what she said to me? We all know how deep emotional and physical scars can run. and how hard it can be to move forward once those wounds have been, well, born. Those wounds from betrayal or abuse or even abandonment can feel almost impossible to overcome. And yet, Jesus challenges us to do something remarkable, to let go of keeping score of the wrongs that others have committed against us. Well, today here on Family Talk, we're going to continue a powerful conversation featuring Dr. James Dobson and his dear friend, Dr. R.T. Kendall, talking about finding true forgiveness. Dr. Kendall knows this topic intimately, having counseled countless people struggling to forgive others over his decades of ministry. And today, our guest will be tackling the myths we believe about forgiveness. He'll also show us why holding on to bitterness can actually be destructive to our physical lives as well as our spiritual growth. Dr. James Dobson Dr. R.T. Kendall served as pastor of Westminster Chapel for 25 years. He holds four advanced degrees and has written over 60 books. His Total Forgiveness Trilogy, which we'll be discussing today, has helped countless of people find freedom through genuine forgiveness, not by minimizing their pain, but by showing them God's path to true healing. On our last program, Dr. Kendall shared his powerful seven steps to total forgiveness, explaining that true forgiveness must happen in our hearts rather than necessarily being expressed to those who hurt us. On today's Family Talk program, he'll tackle the common misconceptions that many of us have about forgiveness, helping us to understand what forgiveness is and maybe, more importantly, what it isn't. He'll show us how forgiveness sets both the forgiver as well as the forgiven free. Now, let's join Dr. James Dobson and his guest, Dr. R.T. Kendall, for the conclusion of this classic conversation on forgiveness right here on Family Talk.
SPEAKER 03 :
You talked in your book about what forgiveness is not. There's some concepts in there that do not represent true forgiveness. Why don't we start our discussion today with you describing those aspects of forgiveness that are sometimes confused with the meaning of the word.
SPEAKER 02 :
Well, the first would be approval of what they did. In other words, the fact that you forgive them doesn't mean you approve. Someone may think, oh, he let me off the hook. It doesn't mean that what you did was okay. You certainly don't approve it. Jesus forgave the woman that was caught in the act of adultery. But then he went on to say, leave your life of sin. So you don't approve just because you forgive.
SPEAKER 03 :
The second one was excusing what they did. Forgiveness is not excusing what they did.
SPEAKER 02 :
Yes. You don't improvise for them and say, well, now here's why they did it. I excuse them. It's okay. That's not what we mean by total forgiveness. Total forgiveness is when you know exactly what they did and you still forgive them. Sometimes people think, well, I just put it out of their mind what they did. That's repressing and that's dangerous. Yeah.
SPEAKER 03 :
Number three is justifying what they did. That's pretty much the same thing, but explain the difference.
SPEAKER 02 :
Well, it means to show a person or a statement or act to be right or just or reasonable. There's no way that evil can be justified. God will never call something that is evil right, and he doesn't require us to do so.
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And number four is pardoning what they did.
SPEAKER 02 :
Well, I would define pardon as a legal transaction that releases an offender from the consequences of their action, such as a penalty for a sentence. And this is why we do not ask that the guilty rapist be exempt from punishment. Such a person needs to pay their debt to society, and society must be protected from people like that.
SPEAKER 03 :
Number five surprised me, and it dealt with reconciliation. And you said there forgiveness is not necessarily the same thing as reconciliation. You can forgive without reconciling. Explain how.
SPEAKER 02 :
Well, let's say a person has been unfaithful, and it was your best friend. You forgive them, but it doesn't mean you're going to be best friends after that. Or take a person who's a child molester, and this person has been forgiven, but I don't know that you would offer them a Sunday school class. And so that's the principle. Reconciliation means everything's going to be just as it was. Not necessarily. The key is whether there's bitterness. And there can be total forgiveness, but not necessarily reconciliation.
SPEAKER 03 :
Reconciliation also implies an equal forgiveness on both sides. And you can only handle one of the two. You're not responsible for what the other person thinks or feels.
SPEAKER 02 :
There can be mutual total forgiveness, but it doesn't mean that you're going to be each other's best friend or that you want to go on holiday with them.
SPEAKER 03 :
Hmm. Number six is forgiveness is not denying what they did.
SPEAKER 02 :
You see, to deny, as I said a while ago, is kind of like being in denial, repressing. I've known of people who said, you know, I don't believe they really did that to me. But I say, but they did. They did. The verse that you quoted on the previous broadcast, love keeps no record of wrongs. The Greek clearly shows that you recognize there was wrong. The wrong is not denied, but you decide to tear up the record.
SPEAKER 03 :
Well, there's several other concepts there, and in the interest of time, let me go to number eight, which has to do with forgetting. You can't necessarily forget. Many people say forgive and forget as though they're one and the same thing. You can't play games with yourself. You do know what they did.
SPEAKER 02 :
You cannot forget. It is said that, well, God forgives and forgets. Look here, he does know what he's forgiven us of. And you can never forget what they did. But the brilliance in total forgiveness is when you know what they've done, you're not living in denial. You have remembered it, but you do forgive them. And it is a sincere, genuine forgiveness.
SPEAKER 03 :
The Scripture says our sins will be remembered against us no more. It's not that they won't be remembered in the mind of God. He knows everything. But it will not be remembered against us anymore. R.T., let's bring this down to an individual situation and try to address those who are listening to us with very, very specific reasons for the anger and the bitterness that's inside. Let's make it specific. Let's suppose we're talking to a woman who's 30 years of age who was abused physically by her father. Let's suppose she was beaten physically. Let's suppose that both parents were abusive. Maybe they were alcoholics and they subjected that child to unimaginable punishment and ridicule. And she's now 30 and that still burns in her heart. Talk to her. Because there are people, I'm sure, who find themselves exactly in the same situation I just described.
SPEAKER 02 :
Well, the first thing I would say to her is that I do understand. I really understand. And although I haven't been through what you've been through, my heart aches for you. And I don't know how you've endured it. I don't know how you stand it. And I am sorry for what you are suffering. I can only say that there is a way whereby you this evil can be turned into good and you can do what very few people do and that is so to get over it that you actually pray for them and pray for that person to be blessed and the result is that you are set free and you begin to see for the first time that the bitterness, however justified it seemed at the time, that bitterness was eating on your soul like a cancer and you were impoverished to the degree you didn't forgive. And I have seen it in my ministry. When people do forgive, the freedom is so wonderful. They say to me, I never dreamed it would be so good. It's wonderful. It's tremendous. And what it does for you is is the thing. So I understand why a person doesn't want to do it, and I don't point the finger, and I don't say, shame on you for not forgiving, because it's the hardest thing in the world. But I would want to motivate them for them to see how good it's going to be if you do it. Will the Lord meet you halfway?
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Will He take a step toward you each time you take a step toward Him in this regard? Will he lead you in trying to deal with what at this moment seems impossible?
SPEAKER 02 :
I will say yes to that. I don't think anybody's ever asked me that question before. But yes. Because he's touched with a feeling of our weaknesses. He's not there looking down, moralizing us. He remembers that we're dust. Oh, listen. And... At the right hand of the Father, where he is our intercessor, he has never forgotten what it was like when he was on this earth. So he's touched with a feeling of our weaknesses. And I would say every step we take, God will witness. And you can almost hear him saying, good, good, go on. And one works through it. And I don't say you'll come to it by tomorrow afternoon. Or that it will be easy. It is not easy. It is the hardest thing one ever has to do. I don't think there's a greater challenge in this world.
SPEAKER 03 :
You described in general terms your own experience with anger and bitterness against a person who had harmed you in the past and that it turned out to be one of the greatest victories of your life. When in that process did you begin to feel that? that you were doing what was right and that the Lord was accepting your offering at this point?
SPEAKER 02 :
Okay. The answer is when I began to pray for them and when I met it, there was an inner witness of peace and joy. It was so good and it was so wonderful. Speaking personally, I want a greater anointing on my preaching than anything.
SPEAKER 03 :
Mm-hmm.
SPEAKER 02 :
And the thought of being able to preach with more power and to have greater insight was so wonderful. And then when I'd start getting bitter and thinking about what they did, it was as though everything was shut down. But when I forgave, it was as though I could begin to see things. And by the way, it works in marriage. I'll tell you a story. One week in London, I was preaching all over England that week, and I hadn't got to prepare a sermon. And usually, when I was at Westminster Chapel, I'd start a Sunday morning sermon on Monday morning. But it was now Saturday, and I'd got nowhere. And my wife and I got into an argument that Saturday morning. And it was pretty awful. And I went to my chair and I started to say, Lord, now give me something for tomorrow. I got nothing. It was 11 o'clock. Lord, please, please help me. Nothing. One o'clock. Nothing. Four o'clock. Lord, what I'm going to say tomorrow is going to go all over the world. You've got to help me. It was as though the Lord said, really? You know, he won't bend the rules for any of us. I went to Louise. I looked at her, and I said, I'm sorry. It's all my fault. We hugged. We kissed. I went to the same chair, same pen, paper, same Bible. In 45 minutes, I had everything I needed for the next day. What made the difference? You see, the spirit came down. That's what I'm saying. The benefits of this. So it's not just that one case that brought about the book. It's something you have to live. And every day or two, there's something that we're going to... have to confront somebody who says something. And why did they say that? You've got to live this life 24 hours a day.
SPEAKER 03 :
Would you say that for those out there who feel they've lost the joy of their relationship with the Lord, that they might start by looking at their relationship with others and say, Lord, is it here?
SPEAKER 02 :
Is this why I'm dry as a bone? I'm going to tell you, you can have people pray for you. You can go to the altar or you can go to communion. But if you are bitter before you go, you're going to be bitter when you come back unless you deal with it. And if it happens in your heart, the joy, well, it's incalculable. The benefits are wonderful.
SPEAKER 03 :
To repeat what you said yesterday, which is a fundamental concept here, is that you don't necessarily have to go tell the person that you forgive them because they may not be ready to receive it and that may not be what's required.
SPEAKER 02 :
Well, nine out of ten people I've ever had to forgive – You could put them under a lie detector and they don't think they've done anything. And you see, that shows that I've probably hurt people and I don't know it. I've had people come to me and say, I've forgiven you for that. I say, whatever did I do? And I sincerely didn't know I'd hurt people. There are people that have hurt me. They don't know it. And so it's counterproductive. I sometimes say when I preach this sermon, I say, now look, if you're convicted of this sermon, when the service is over, don't go up to the person and say, I forgive you. Because they're going to say, for what? For what? And you're going to say, well, you know. And they're going to say, well, I don't. And then you're going to say, well, you should. And now you've got a fight on your hands. It's got to happen in the heart. The only time you say I forgive you is when you know they want to hear it so much.
SPEAKER 03 :
Then you tell them. You know, when I was in college, I went to a Christian college. We had chapel five days a week. And I remember an occasion or two where during revival or whenever it was, a student would stand up before the— 1500 people who were there and shout out loud enough for everybody to hear. I just want Jack to know that I have been angry at him and he's done all these terrible things to me and I forgive him. Embarrassed Jack half to death. It was an inappropriate thing to do. And that's not what we are required to do.
SPEAKER 02 :
It's got to happen in the heart. you are in a position like God is with us. You know what it's like when two of your children aren't speaking to each other. Our Heavenly Father feels that way when two of us aren't speaking to each other. And so we set Him free when we forgive one another. And what you must do with children is not to take sides, but say, well, I can see why you are hurt. I can see why you are hurt. But you must forgive. Yeah, as a parent, I would definitely say that. And I have to tell you this. I had the greatest parents in the world. I had the most wonderful father. My earliest memory of my father is seeing him on his knees for 30 minutes. He did not think of going to work without 30 minutes on his knees every morning. But for some reason, this teaching... I wasn't taught it at home. I'm telling you, it's a teaching that somehow, we all know it's there, but it gets swept under the carpet when it comes to application.
SPEAKER 03 :
R.T., the truth of the universe is in this concept and in this book because you took it right out of Scripture. And I would like to close today. our program today by asking you to pray for those out there who are bitter. They've been bitter for years and it has just been a bile that has affected them for so many years and they just can't seem to get beyond it. They can't forgive. Will you pray a prayer for us now? Pray for all of us, for all of us need forgiveness. to be able to forgive. It happens to everybody. And it happens regularly because God made us very sensitive people. Now you talk about the Holy Spirit being likened unto a dove. We are likened unto sheep. And we are easily led and easily influenced and easily hurt. And all of us get wounded by the casual things that people say around us when they don't even know that they've said anything that has hurt us. And so it's a common human experience and a difficult one to get beyond. And I would like you to pray for those who are going to try to do what you have said today.
SPEAKER 02 :
just before i pray could i just say one thing imagine the person out there that's hurt more than anybody else who feels that he has the most he has to forgive because he would say or she would say you don't know what i've been through my reply is the deeper the hurt the greater the sense of god's blessing if you can forgive that There are people around you that don't have the potential blessing you've got because they don't have to forgive what you have to forgive. But when you have been through what you've been through and still forgive, the power of the Spirit will be double, treble in your case. Pray for us. Heavenly Father, we thank you that you are touched with the feeling of our weaknesses. You know our frame. you remember that we are dust. And I pray for that person who's out there right now who has been so hurt, so betrayed. abused, the object of infidelity, who has been lied about, and people believe the lies, who has been hurt by a friend. And I pray for healing in that person at this very moment. And I pray that your Holy Spirit will come into that person's room or car or wherever they are at this moment, and you will enable that person to forgive Totally. To come to the place that he or she will stop talking about what they did and just cast their burden upon the Lord and forgive as you have forgiven us because you will not tell what you've forgiven us for. Enable that person to set that other person free, that one will not try to intimidate that we will not let them feel guilty, that we will let them save face and protect them from their darkest secret, and that we will accept it as something we must do as long as we live. Thank you that you understand this and that you don't moralize us. But you stoop to where we are and say, look, I forgive you. Set that person free. And enable us all right now to pray as Jesus did on the cross. Father, forgive them. They don't know what they're doing. And we thank you for the joy and the peace that will come. Heal that marriage. Heal that relationship. Set that person free. And may healing come in these moments. In Jesus' name, amen.
SPEAKER 03 :
Amen. What a beautiful prayer. Dr. R.T., I don't want to patronize you or flatter you, but your book, Total Forgiveness, is one of the most important books that I've read. in recent years. It was number one in the UK in sales. And it's been a bestseller here. And everybody ought to read this book. Everybody. I think everybody needs to at least examine themselves and see if there's something here that the Lord would have them do. And this book would be a real good place to start. Get it and read it and then apply it. And R.T., thank you for your influence in my life and for your ministry through the years. God has used you mightily, and I am just grateful for your friendship, and I appreciate your being with us. Well, thank you for having me. God bless you.
SPEAKER 01 :
Authentic forgiveness is truly one of life's toughest mountains to climb. Amen? It's more than the simple act of saying, I forgive you, but rather a transformative journey that opens the door to our own freedom and spiritual renewal. Fred, you're listening to Family Talk in a classic conversation featuring Dr. James Dobson and his dear friend, Dr. R.T. Kendall. The wisdom Dr. Kendall has shared these past couple of programs has given us all a fresh perspective on what true forgiveness really looks like, and perhaps more importantly, how it can set us free. His insights remind us that forgiveness isn't just about the past, it's about creating a better future for ourselves and also for those around us. Now, if you missed any part of the conversation or you know someone who would really benefit from hearing it, you can find both episodes online at drjamesdobson.org forward slash family talk. That's drjamesdobson.org forward slash family talk. Remember, you can also access these programs on your smartphone using the Dr. James Dobson Family app. And speaking of apps, the brand new JDFI Multilingual app is now available for those who use Apple products and will soon be available for Android users as well. You can be encouraged with practical daily messages that prioritize God and family in every area of your life. The new Multilingual app comes. gives you convenient access to Dr. Dobson's biblically-based teachings, including brand-new podcast episodes on marriage and parenting, the Dobson Marriage Podcast and the Dobson Parenting Podcast. In addition, you'll find the popular, newly remastered Dr. Dobson Minute. Now, these can be personalized to your interest, saved in your library, and quickly shared with those you love. Now, the Family app is currently available on Apple devices in English and Spanish, and to get those settings straight, it will just default to your phone's language setting. There are three additional languages that are in the works, as well as an Android version, which I'm happy about, and those will be released later in 2025. Through this new JDFI multilingual app, we are seeking to reach millions of people all over the world with the good news of the gospel and strength for the marriage and parenting journeys. For more information, simply go to drjamesdobson.org, or you can find the Dr. James Dobson Family Multilingual App in the Apple Store right now. And by the way, if you're looking for even more great content from Family Talk, our 2024 Best of Broadcast collection is still available. This carefully curated six-CD set features life-changing conversations with trusted experts and inspiring testimonies of God's faithfulness. We'll be happy to send you one as our way of thanking you for your gift of any amount in support of the JDFI today. So go online and request your copy at drjamesdobson.org or give us a call at 877-732-6825. Now, if you prefer, you can also send your gift through the mail. Our ministry mailing address is Dr. James Dobson's Family Talk, P.O. Box 39000, Colorado Springs, Colorado, the zip code 80949. Well, I'm Roger Marsh. So glad that you've been with us today. On behalf of Dr. Dobson and the entire team here at the JDFI, thanks so much for listening and for standing with us in prayer. Be sure to join us again next time right here for another edition of Dr. James Dobson's family talk the voice you trust for the family you love this has been a presentation of the dr james dobson family institute
In this inspiring episode, Dr. Dobson and Dr. Hawkins discuss The Nehemiah Code, emphasizing its message that it’s never too late for a new beginning. Explore how Nehemiah's biblical account can inform our approach to leadership, teamwork, and personal growth today. Listen as they highlight the importance of building strong foundations and fostering community to overcome life's obstacles.
SPEAKER 02 :
Well, hello everyone. I'm James Dobson and you're listening to Family Talk, a listener-supported ministry. In fact, thank you so much for being part of that support for James Dobson Family Institute.
SPEAKER 01 :
Well, welcome back to Family Talk. I'm Roger Marsh, and on today's program, we're going to hear part two of a fascinating conversation featuring Dr. Dobson and his guest, Dr. O.S. Hawkins, former pastor of the historic First Baptist Church in Dallas, Texas, and president emeritus of Guidestone Financial Resources. On our last broadcast, Dr. Hawkins shared about his ministry helping retired pastors through Mission Dignity, and he introduced his popular series of code books that help believers dive deeper into Scripture. Today, he'll take us into the powerful story of Nehemiah, showing us how this ancient tale of rebuilding Jerusalem's walls offers practical wisdom for anyone seeking a fresh start in life. Now, these insights come from Dr. Hawkins' book, The Nehemiah Code. It's never too late for a new beginning. Through the story of Nehemiah, we'll discover timeless principles for starting fresh. whether we're rebuilding relationships, restoring faith, or seeking a new direction in life. Dr. Hawkins will remind us that with God's help, genuine transformation is always possible. And now let's rejoin Dr. James Dobson for part two of this inspiring conversation here on Family Talk.
SPEAKER 02 :
Dr. Hawkins, thank you so much for being with us again today. I love the program we did together last time. And we've got a lot more to talk about related to your book, The Nehemiah Code. It's never too late for a new beginning. And what I... love about this book is that I really love the story of Nehemiah. But I want to take that story back before you start with the book to how we pick up Nehemiah in Babylon. He was a cupbearer for the king, wasn't he?
SPEAKER 03 :
To King Artaxerxes, yes. And the beautiful thing about Nehemiah, what I like to remind people is he wasn't a preacher. He wasn't a prophet. He wasn't a theologian. He was not a theologian. He was a civil servant. He had a civil service job as cupbearer to Artaxerxes with all the fringe benefits, retirement benefits, everything, and he left it all to be the rebuilder of the broken walls. You know, after the death of King Solomon, as you know, the kingdom of Israel divided into a northern kingdom and a southern kingdom. In the northern kingdom, They were ruled by all wicked kings. There wasn't one good king among them. And in 722, the Assyrians took them away into captivity, and they never returned. The southern kingdom— Did Nebuchadnezzar's army do that? No, that was the Assyrians in 722. In 586, then, to the southern kingdom, Nebuchadnezzar came and besieged Jerusalem. in a horrible siege, and they destroyed the city, broke the walls down, burned the gates, and they took the brightest Jewish minds they could find back to Babylon.
SPEAKER 02 :
Daniel was one of them.
SPEAKER 03 :
Daniel, Shadrach, Meshach, Abednego, and others. And they took them back to re-educate them. They tried to change their language. They tried to change their literature. All those things you can read about in the book of Daniel. And so after a period, the Persians broke the Babylonian supremacy. A remnant had returned to Jerusalem to rebuild the walls, and they got so discouraged that they quit. And Nehemiah heard a report that Jerusalem was a reproach, and the walls were still broken, the gates burned. And he went to the king and begged permission to go back to Jerusalem, and he was granted. And Nehemiah went back to Jerusalem. He made a midnight ride on a horse around the walls, and he wept over the ruins. He did. And he began fasting. He fasted and prayed before the God of heaven, the Bible says. And then he moved and mobilized that remnant that was there that for years had left that city dormant. And in 52 days, they rebuilt the city. And there's some incredible evidence. applications there to how any of us, whoever we are, whatever our circumstance, can rebuild our own broken lives. Because as the subtitle of the book says, and the message of Nehemiah is this, it's never too late for a new beginning.
SPEAKER 02 :
And that's exactly what he did and began building the wall. And it wasn't that he didn't have opposition. Sanballat, as I recall, was out on the edge of town, and he was making fun of him.
SPEAKER 03 :
He said if a fox runs up on it, it'll fall down. Sanballat and Tobias and others, he faced incredible opposition. But he kept focused. He kept going forward. The book is divided into several sections of what you need to do to be a rebuilder. First of all, you've got to get started right. And that's what Nehemiah did. Rebuilders get started right. They make an honest evaluation of the situation. They identify with the need. They take personal responsibility. And then they move out of their comfort zones. You know, we live today in comfort zones. Some of us don't have anything to do with anybody unless they're in our socioeconomic level. or political level, or whatever, educational level. So he got started right. Then the second thing he did, he built a team spirit. And that is so vital in rebuilding. He was a great organizer, wasn't he? He was a credible organizer. And if I had a pencil in my hand right now, a wooden pencil, I could easily break it. But if I put two or three together, it's exponentially more difficult to break. We call that synergy. That's what he did. You know, the Bible says if one can chase 1,000, two can chase 10,000. He understood and recognized that we all need each other in the rebuilding process. So he built this team spirit of those around him. He started with his goal in mind, seized his opportunities, and motivated his people to get off a dead center. One of the most important things he did, he was an example himself. You know, the greatest leadership principle I know in or outside the Bible, and there are millions of leadership books, I suppose. But Gideon, in Judges 7-7, he got his army down to 300 people, as you remember, and was going out to fight thousands of the Midianite host with that little army. And the last thing he said to them, he turned to them in Judges 7-7 and said, do as I do. It's the greatest principle of leadership, I know, because eventually, those of us in leadership, the people on our team are going to do what we do. And so this was one of the real secrets of Nehemiah. He was there with them. He was putting those stones in with them. He was building. He was up and down the lines, showing them appreciation. One of the greatest motivating factors in the rebuilding process is to give people a pat on the back. To say they're appreciated. Let them know that they're appreciated. This is what Jesus did. He went around.
SPEAKER 02 :
And do as I do.
SPEAKER 03 :
Yeah, and do as I do. This is what Jesus did. He went around affirming people. Affirmation is vitally important.
SPEAKER 02 :
You know, a related passage in Scripture. related to Nehemiah is found in the book of Ezra. And Ezra was a priest. And they got in there. This is a wonderful passage. I think it's in the 10th chapter of Ezra. And Nehemiah had to be close at hand. And they got into the ruins of of Jerusalem and came across the scrolls, and they began reading them, and their eyes were opened to their sin, and they were marrying foreign wives and so on. And there was a platform there, and Ezra got up on that platform. and began reading the scrolls.
SPEAKER 03 :
Just read the Word of God.
SPEAKER 02 :
And their eyes popped open, and they began weeping. If there's a moment in Scripture, or one of them, that I would most like to have been there, is to be there when this repentance, this revival broke out through the people. And they say, we sinned against the God of heaven. And they fell on their faces, and Nehemiah was weeping. And that was the beginning of the energy that helped to rebuild the wall, wasn't it?
SPEAKER 03 :
And as the Bible says, it's not my word, God said, like a hammer that breaks a rock to pieces. And when the word of God goes forth, not just in Ezra and Nehemiah's day, but in our day, When we get the word of God into our heart, it makes a huge difference.
SPEAKER 02 :
Don't you wish that spirit would spring across this country and that people would say, oh, I didn't know that was in the Bible. I didn't know what I was doing. Was that wrong? We have sinned against God. Forgive us, Lord. We repent of our sin.
SPEAKER 03 :
Exactly. And that's really the motivating factor that I have behind all these code books, because every one of them go to the Scripture, because it's the Bible. It's the Scripture that brings conviction. You know, there's a lost word in our Christian vocabulary, conviction. When Peter stood up and read from Joel and illustrated it with some Psalms on the day of Pentecost and preached that great Pentecostal proclamation, do you remember what it says? It says their hearts were cut. They fell under deep conviction, and that only comes from the Word of God. You know, another thing about Nehemiah was how he dealt with, I call it, rebuilders never cut what they can untie.
SPEAKER 02 :
You know, I read that, and that didn't ring true to me. I didn't know what you meant by that, but now I do. Explain it.
SPEAKER 03 :
Well, you were a little boy in Fort Worth, and so was I. And in my block over on the east side of Fort Worth, there was an old vacant lot on that block. And that was our ball fit. It was like Yankee Stadium to me and my buddies on Crenshaw Street. And we'd play ball up there. And there was one kid that would come to that vacant lot. And he would always have – he had a pair of black canvas high-top tennis shoes. This was back in the 50s when I was a boy. And those shoes would only be laced up halfway up to the top. And there'd be several eyelets at the top unlaced because he was so impatient that when he would get a knot in his shoelaces, instead of taking the time to untie them, he'd take his pocket knife out and just cut them off. And that's the way a lot of people do in relationships. They don't want to take the time and the effort and the energy to untie those knots that get into a relationship. So they just come along. And for some people, it's easier just to cut them off. And that's why they go from one relationship to another, to another, to another. But when you're rebuilding relationships, You never cut what you can untie. Conflict resolution is a vital important of Nehemiah's story because conflict will tear your team apart. It doesn't matter whether it's at church or at home or in business or wherever. And so Nehemiah, there were four things he did to resolve conflicts. And timing was everything. He said there's a time to back off. There's a time to stand up. There's a time to give in. And there's a time to reach out. You know, some of us don't know when those times are. Some of us, all we do is stand up when we have a conflict and just get in somebody else's face and just move in like a bull and a child. Some of us, just all we do is back off, and we never even deal with it. There's a time to back off and seek God's counsel. That's what I mean about it. But there's also a time to stand up for what's right, and there's a time to give in. You know, when we were raising our daughters with all those books from Dobson – I discovered early on that I would a lot rather lose a few little insignificant battles that didn't amount to a hill of beans and win the bigger war. So I gave in on some non-essentials that I really didn't want to, but they didn't amount to anything. So there's a time to give in, but there's also a time then to reach out. And if you want to know the beautiful illustration of this, we were all in conflict with God. As you mentioned ago, we've all sinned and come short of the glory of God. We're all in conflict with God. So this is the story of the gospel. Christ came to mend the broken relationship. Christ came to reconcile us to God. Christ came to reconcile that conflict resolution. And so what did he do and how did he do it? Those four things. He backed off. See him in Gethsemane's garden the night before the crucifixion, neat those old olive trees, backed off, prayed, took in so he could give out at Calvary. If it's possible, Lord, let this pass from me. Nevertheless, not my will, but yours. Then secondly, we see him after backing off, standing up. He stood up before Caiaphas. He stood up before Annas. He stood up before Pontius Pilate. And then we see him giving in. Nobody pushed him or shoved him up the Via Dolorosa. He went as a lamb for the slaughter, willingly laid down. And finally on the cross, with arms outstretched, we see him reaching out as though he were saying, whosoever will may come. And through him, we can be reconciled to God.
SPEAKER 02 :
And the Lord will forgive and embrace and love. But it requires something on your part. We confess our sins.
SPEAKER 03 :
He's faithful and just to forgive us and cleanse us of all unrighteousness.
SPEAKER 02 :
Hey, tell me that phrase again that I said I didn't understand in the beginning. Never cut what you can untie. All right. And related to the strings? Right.
SPEAKER 03 :
Related to conflict resolution. Take the time to untie those broken relationships.
SPEAKER 02 :
What's the next point from your book, The Nehemiah Code?
SPEAKER 03 :
Well, we talk about how Nehemiah let go without letting up. The secret to what he did was his ability to delegate and to use other people. He let go without letting up. He was the master of this. He set clear objectives. Some of us are trying to rebuild businesses or churches. Set some clear objectives with specific tasks if you want people to be on your team. Let them know what to do. Pick the right person for the right job. So often we put the right person in the wrong job or the wrong person in the right job. Somewhere there's a job that each of us can do.
SPEAKER 02 :
Can you imagine Nehemiah setting out to rebuild a wall?
SPEAKER 03 :
Yeah.
SPEAKER 02 :
What is it, 14, 18 feet thick?
SPEAKER 03 :
Well, anybody that's been to Jerusalem has seen those stones.
SPEAKER 02 :
And they still last today even though they were torn down.
SPEAKER 03 :
Yeah, right.
SPEAKER 02 :
Yeah.
SPEAKER 03 :
Well, he was a builder. And, you know, there's another principle I call yak. I like that. I got it from John Madden.
SPEAKER 02 :
I know about this one.
SPEAKER 03 :
Nehemiah would use this because it's a secret to rebuilding. You know, John Madden was an NFL coach and then color commentator on football games, NFL games. One of the best. One of the best. He coined an acronym, YAC, he called it. Yards After Contact. And it was the amount of yards that a running back, after he was hit initially the first time, how he moved forward, didn't crumble on the ground, didn't fall to the ground, how he kept moving forward toward the goal line. And from the time he was hit to where he went down, that was a new stat called yak. And this is exactly what Nehemiah did, because rebuilders deal with conflict head on. When they get hit, and we're all going to get hit, they don't just crumble or fumble the ball. They keep moving. They keep moving forward. They make some proper adjustments. They keep doing what's right. They rally their troops to greatness.
SPEAKER 02 :
I love that. YAC, Y-A-C, Yards After Contact. Every great runner keeps going when he's been hit. And he carries sometimes three or four or five people with him and sometimes across the goal line.
SPEAKER 03 :
And, you know, we're all going to face opposition. If you're not facing opposition from the devil, you're going in the same direction he is. So we're going to face opposition. And it's all a matter of how we deal with it.
SPEAKER 02 :
Our country is in the midst of conflict right now. And some people have given up. They sit down. Nehemiah did that to start with. He sat down and thought about it. But he got up and went and built a wall. And I think where we are now, we really ought to be doing some of that kind of thinking. I agree 100%.
SPEAKER 03 :
That's what the Nehemiah Code is about. It sets a pathway to us to rebuild anything. What did he eventually do? Did he finish the wall? In 52 days, the wall was completed. He finished strong. And the way he finished strong, actually, was that he stayed off the side streets by keeping focus, and he stayed off the sidelines by being faithful. And, you know, you and I both have seen people that, when they're running the last lap of life, fall on the track. Right. And I don't know about you, and I do know about you, but I know about me also. And one thing I want to do is I want to finish strong. I want to be like Nehemiah, get the job done, finish strong. God's given me a task to do, and that's exactly what I want to be about. You know, there's one of the secrets that I've found in my life. It came from a question that's actually in the Jesus Code, 52 Scripture questions every believer should answer in this code series. And it's the question that was asked in Isaiah 50. Does anyone fear the Lord anymore? Is there anyone who still fears the Lord? And you know, Dr. Dobson, if there is a forgotten subject in the church, it's the fear of God. How long has it been since you heard a sermon on the fear of God? How long has it been since you heard somebody teach on the fear of God? It's a forgotten subject. And the fear of God is not the fear that God is up there and has this big club of retribution. If we say something wrong or do something wrong, he's going to pound us over the head with it. We have to walk on eggshells. It's not the fear that God's going to put his hand on us. The fear of God is the fear that God might take his hand off of us. And if people would just live with that concept every day.
SPEAKER 02 :
You know, instead of fear, I don't want to edit the Bible, but instead of fear, I think of the word awe.
SPEAKER 03 :
Well, that's the word for fear in the Bible, reverential awe. In fact, in the book of Acts, it says that the early church was walking in the fear of the Lord and the comfort of the Holy Spirit, and they were multiplied. So, you know, they were walking in the fear of the Lord. They were living in this environment of the fear of the Lord that they didn't want to do anything that might cause God to take his hand of a blessing off him. All those Old Testament prophets lived in the fear of God. Noah, by fear, moved the ark, Hebrews 11 says. Moses. But he was going to the promised land. What does the Lord require of you, Deuteronomy 10? He asked him. But to fear him as you go. Joshua got the end of his life in chapter 24. His last words to his people. Now then, fear the Lord and serve him in all faithfulness. The Proverbs woman, 31. We bring her out every Mother's Day and make all the women feel guilty because they can't measure up to her. But the secret of her life is way down in verse 31. A woman who fears the Lord, she shall be praised. It's all through the Gospels.
SPEAKER 02 :
It is.
SPEAKER 03 :
Everywhere throughout Scripture. It's all through the book of Acts. It's all through the epistles. Submit yourselves one to another in the fear of the Lord, the Bible says. In fact, this is the way that we keep from sin. Proverbs 16, 6 tells us that by the fear of the Lord, one departs from evil. You know, there's a supernatural principle there that if you walk in the fear of God, he'll keep you from sin. What about Moses at Sinai when he talks about the fear of the Lord? It's all through the Bible. It'll keep us from sin. When we're walking in the fear of the Lord. God gives us a supernatural ability to overcome our sinful desires. I'll tell you something else he'll do. He'll give us supernatural wisdom to know the Word of God you're talking about a moment ago. Psalm 25, 14 says, By the secrets of the Lord are for those who fear him, and to them he'll reveal his covenants.
SPEAKER 02 :
You know, I heard my dad say many times that never forget. And never doubt that the universe has a boss. Exactly. And he's not a winking, blinking grandfather who gives you everything you ask for. But he calls us to righteousness. Exactly. He calls us to stand for truth.
SPEAKER 03 :
And that same God hasn't abdicated his throne. His eyes still run to and fro over this whole world to show himself strong in behalf of those whose hearts are fixed on him.
SPEAKER 02 :
That's what worries me about our country because we have forgotten that fear, that awe. No question. And it's all through scriptures. If you read it, it'll speak to you.
SPEAKER 03 :
Yeah, no doubt about it. In fact, I would challenge your listeners that in your normal devotional time, every time you come across that concept, fear of God, circle it in your Bible, you'll be shocked. how many times it's there. And again, if our listeners today could just understand that the fear of God is not the fear God's going to put his hand of retribution on us, but the fear that he might take his hand of blessing and anointing off of us. And if we'd walk in that environment, it'd make a difference in what we do, what we say, where we go, and all those things of life. And we'd understand, as Nehemiah, that it's never too late for a new beginning.
SPEAKER 02 :
You are preaching still today in many places, aren't you?
SPEAKER 03 :
I am. In fact, I just ran into some of your friends at Scottsdale Bible the other day, and I preached at Michael Youssef's. Jay Snyder's a wonderful guy. I just was out at Church of the Apostles in Atlanta with Michael Youssef. I preach at First Baptist Dallas, my old church still, four or five times a year. Dr. Jeffers is so good to have me back. And so, yeah, but this is God has enlarged my coast. And I'd encourage people if they want to know more about all the code books or mission dignity to go to OSHawkins.com and they can get all the information.
SPEAKER 02 :
Let me remind people of what they are. You've written the Joshua Code, the Jesus Code. The James Code, the Daniel Code, the Believer's Code, the Christmas Code, and the linkage between all of those and the Nehemiah Code is taking a stand for what's right and what God has to say. Put it into your words. I'll put it into Joshua's words in Joshua 1.8.
SPEAKER 03 :
This book of the law shall not depart out of your mouth, but you shall meditate on it day and night in order that you may do all that is written therein, and then you'll make your way prosperous. Then you'll have good success. So these codes are just about getting us, not getting us into the Word of God, but getting the Word of God into us.
SPEAKER 02 :
You know, one of the great pleasures of what the Lord has allowed me to do here is meeting people like you who come in, and I learn from every one of you. And you have been a blessing to me today, and I know to all of our listeners. The title of the book we've been talking about is The Nehemiah Code. It's Never Too Late for a New Beginning. Dr. O.S. Hawkins. You took a lot of time to come and be here. Thank you. Let's do it again. I'd love to. Thank you so much. God bless you, friend. Thank you, brother.
SPEAKER 01 :
Well, just like Nehemiah's careful work of rebuilding Jerusalem's ancient walls, we too are called to be rebuilders in our own time, whether that means repairing broken relationships, strengthening our communities, or restoring what's been lost in our culture. You've been listening to Dr. James Dobson's Family Talk. and a hope-filled conversation about rebuilding and renewal featuring Dr. Dobson and his special in-studio guest, Dr. O.S. Hawkins. Now, if you missed any portion of today's broadcast, or if you'd like to share it with a friend or loved one, visit drjamesdobson.org forward slash family talk. That's drjamesdobson.org forward slash family talk. And once you're there, you'll find the complete program, both parts one and two, along with information about Dr. O.S. Hawkins' book called The Nehemiah Code. And by the way, if you're looking for more practical ways to strengthen your family, we've partnered with the Bible app by YouVersion to bring you free, easy-to-use reading plans that fit your busy schedule. Each plan offers Dr. Dobson's trusted insights on marriage, parenting, and family life delivered right to your phone or tablet. Ready to get started? Well, simply open the Bible app and then search for Dr. James Dobson or JDFI, more family talk, and discover resources that can transform your family one day at a time. Well, I'm Roger Marsh, and from all of us here at Family Talk, thanks so much for listening. Be sure to join us again next time right here for another edition of Dr. James Dobson's Family Talk, the voice you trust for the family you love. This has been a presentation of the Dr. James Dobson Family Institute.
Join Dr. James Dobson on this enlightening episode of Family Talk as he engages with Dr. O.S. Hawkins, a renowned figure in Christian ministry. Discover the remarkable journey of Dr. Hawkins from being a senior pastor to leading Guidestone Financial Resources, where his Mission Dignity program brings hope to retired pastors and their widows. The discussion revolves around the transformative power of faith, drawing wisdom from the biblical story of Nehemiah and how it can inspire us to rebuild important aspects of our lives.
SPEAKER 03 :
Welcome everyone to Family Talk. It's a ministry of the James Dobson Family Institute supported by listeners just like you. I'm Dr. James Dobson and I'm thrilled that you've joined us.
SPEAKER 01 :
Well, welcome to Family Talk, the broadcast division of the Dr. James Dobson Family Institute. I'm Roger Marsh, and today we're joined by a beloved voice in Christian ministry, Dr. O.S. Hawkins, former senior pastor of the historic First Baptist Church in Dallas, Texas. After many, many years in the pulpit, Dr. Hawkins followed God's call to lead Guidestone Financial Resources, where he has helped transform the lives of retired pastors and their widows through their Mission Dignity program. Dr. Now, you may know Dr. Hawkins from his popular Code series of devotional books, including The Joshua Code, The Jesus Code, and our topic for today, The Nehemiah Code. In today's conversation with Dr. Dobson, Dr. Hawkins will share an encouraging word about new beginnings, drawing wisdom from the biblical story of Nehemiah. Whether you're looking to rebuild relationships or start fresh in any other area of your life, you will not want to miss what these two doctors have to say on this most important topic. Let's get into this conversation right now on today's edition of Dr. James Dobson's Family Talk.
SPEAKER 03 :
Doctor? We are so pleased and honored to have a man here that many of you will recognize because his name is very well known in Christendom. He is Dr. O.S. Hawkins, who for years was the head pastor of of the historic First Baptist Church in Dallas, Texas, where Dr. W.A. Criswell was the beloved pastor for 50 years. I love that church. I've spoken there. Of course, Dr. Robert Jeffress is the senior pastor now, but Dr. Hawkins holds a doctorate of ministry from Luther Rice Seminary, and he's working on a PhD now at Southwestern Seminary, which will make him the oldest earner of a Ph.D. in the history of the school. Is that right? I think that's pretty close. And you're about to work on your dissertation. I am. Well, you're a Texan. I'm a Texan. We had dinner together, and I found out I really like you. I mean to tell you, I would like to be your friend for the rest of my life, and it would be just a pleasure to have you here again because you have the same values and the same beliefs that I do, and we have walked a similar path. And it's a pleasure to have you here. You flew here to be with us today. And God is blessing your life, isn't he?
SPEAKER 02 :
He is. And let me just say, for my wife Susie and myself, in the library of people we've always loved and respected, you and Shirley are way up there on the top shelf, because we couldn't have raised our girls back in the 70s and the 80s without Dare to Discipline, without Hide or Seek, and especially without The Strong-Willed Child. Susie told me today that she got that book out and looked at it again, and It's tear-stained all the way through it.
SPEAKER 03 :
Well, you've got to bring her here the next time you come. I shall. You have two daughters.
SPEAKER 02 :
We have two daughters. And they're grown. Wendy and Holly. Wendy is an attorney. She and her husband are both attorneys in Dallas. They have two children. And then Holly, our youngest, is an author with Thomas Nelson with Children's Devotionals. And she's married to a young man who's one of the ministers at Prestonwood Baptist Church in Dallas.
SPEAKER 03 :
And they have four children. That's Dr. Jack Graham's church. It is. I've been there, too. I have in front of me a copy of the cover of Holly's book, I Can Learn the Bible. Gave a plug to that book some years ago, and I hope that it hasn't disappeared.
SPEAKER 02 :
No, you did, and she is greatly appreciated. She has that, and then she also has the children's devotional called I Can Learn to Pray, and they're incredible books for teaching our kids. You know, as parents, we want to teach our kids to learn the Bible. We want to teach them to pray. Sometimes we don't know how, and these are books that just help hold hands with parents and help them really know how they can lead their kids to do that.
SPEAKER 03 :
those things well you are no longer a pastor but you're working in a church context and in a way that is extremely helpful primarily to widows but to pastors and others who are having difficulty financially but describe for me what your application of the ministry is now
SPEAKER 02 :
In 1997, I left the pastor of the First Baptist Church in Dallas, where I love those people to this day and have such great memories of my days and years there. I left there to become president of Guidestone Financial Resources. It is a Christian evangelical mutual fund that serves 250,000 different participants over 300 years. Christian universities, 40,000 churches with all kinds of financial service needs. We're the world's largest Christian screen mutual fund. You just slurred past that, but say that again. Guidestone is the world's largest Christian screen mutual fund, $16 billion under assets right now. And we just received a few years ago from Lipper and Morningstar in New York, the number one mutual fund. in the country beating out 242 other mutual funds with assets of $40 billion and below. And so we're proving that you can keep your Christian values and still not sacrifice excellence in the investment arena.
SPEAKER 03 :
So our Guidestone Funds— That means you don't invest in any known association with—
SPEAKER 02 :
Our investment policy is that we don't invest in companies that are publicly recognized to be involved in alcohol, gambling, tobacco, abortion, pornography, or any other issues like that that are abhorrent to our Christian values.
SPEAKER 03 :
Now, you call this a ministry, and there's a reason for it. I alluded to it earlier explained.
SPEAKER 02 :
Right. It's a ministry because we serve these pastors and churches. You know, our goal is to get a couple of these generations on our watch to vocational retirement with enough financial security that they don't have to be on somebody else's relief roll, that they can have enough financial security, they can volunteer for ministry and missions all over the world, because we also serve a lot of folks who don't have that privilege. We have a ministry called Mission Dignity. Dr. Dobson, we're on a mission to bring dignity to some forgotten folks, and that's retired pastors, and in most cases now, they're widows. Average age is about 85 in our program, living at the poverty level. These are folks who pastored out in the crossroads of life in seemingly forgotten places, lived in a church-owned home all their ministry, never made enough to get by much less.
SPEAKER 03 :
Many of them didn't even get Social Security because the church couldn't pay for it.
SPEAKER 02 :
Right. And they couldn't get by because they had no money to prepare for retirement. They were just trying to live from week to week and paycheck to paycheck. And so we come alongside them in their declining years. Ten years ago, we raised enough money to give them, I'm talking about thousands of people in this program, to give them $50 a month extra. But we've raised so much money recently, that the neediest among them now get $630 a month. One little pastor's widow, 87 years old, wrote me recently and said, I get to eat at night now, and it's not just a piece of toast. Isn't that unbelievable? Yeah. So to be Christ-hand extended to these people, it's close to the heart of God. In the book of James, the Bible tells us that pure and undefiled religion is this, to take care of widows. And that's all through the Scriptures. It's woven throughout the Scriptures, and it's our privilege to be Christ's hand extended. The beautiful thing about this program... is that we have endowed years ago all the expenses of the program. So everybody that works in the bookkeeping of it, everybody that works in the development program, all their salaries are paid out of this endowment. All the printed materials that we provide for the people, even the stamp that goes on the check to thousands of these people each month is paid for out of that endowment so that everyone who gives to Mission Dignity knows that every single penny they give goes to them. And we've raised $150 million. Wow. in the last 10 or 15 years for this. And all the royalties to my books, we have a code series of devotional books with Thomas Nelson.
SPEAKER 03 :
And we're going to talk about that today.
SPEAKER 02 :
Yeah, they've sold over a million and a half copies in the last three or four years. And the reason I can talk about that is because all the royalties to all those books also go to these precious people in mission. You know, there's a baby boomer generation that's coming into retirement, and they're not prepared for retirement. And they're getting a double whammy. Some of them still have... aged parents that they're trying to take care of. And at the same time, they've got kids that are 30 or 40 years old that many of them are still providing for. So we've got a whole situation with mission dignity where we continue to grow it because of the growing need that's there. I would like everybody to remember that name. Say it again. Mission Dignity. Yeah, you can go to OSHawkins.com and click. There's a page there. You can click on Mission Dignity. Just listen to a few of the videos of these people and learn more about the program there.
SPEAKER 03 :
Well, I'm glad we had a chance to talk about that. We're actually here to talk about your book. And you mentioned that you have written a number of books. And the linkage to them all is the word CODE, C-O-D-E. And those books are? The Joshua Code, the Jesus Code, the James Code, the Daniel Code, the Believer's Code, the Christmas Code, and the Easter Code, and the one we're going to talk about today, the Nehemiah Code. What is the linkage between all this?
SPEAKER 02 :
I believe that there are nuggets of truth in Scripture, in these books of the Bible, that really, when they're mine, can give us a code to live on and to live by. And so these are all devotional books. And the secret to them, Dr. Dobson, is in the subtitle. For example, the first one is the Joshua Code. And the subtitle is 52 Scripture Verses. every believer should know. So it's a devotional book for a year where you take one verse of Scripture, memorize it that week. You know, Scripture memories are a lost art in Christian living. Memorize that verse that week. There are devotional helps on it there through it. And it's a year-long devotion. It comes from Joshua 1.8 that says, shall not depart out of your mouth, but you shall meditate on it day and night in order to do all that is written therein. Then you'll make your way prosperous. Then you'll have good success. So what I found was that there were a lot of people who wanted to get into the Word of God. They just didn't know where to start. They start in the book of Genesis, and by the time they get to Leviticus, they're bogged down. Or if they start in the New Testament, they get to Matthew, and they can't pronounce four-fifths of the names in the genealogy in Matthew 1. So I picked out 52 verses in the Bible. If you know these verses, you're going to know the message of the Bible. And if you know these verses, there are 52 verses I believe every believer should know before they go to heaven. And it had such success, it sold several hundred thousand copies, that we followed it up with the Jesus Code. Do you know, one of the things, I was reading through the Gospels just devotionally, and I was astounded by something interesting. I'd seen a hundred times before, but never really seen, if you know what I mean. And that was the numbers of times Jesus asked questions in the Scripture. He was always asking questions. Now, He didn't need answers. He was omniscient. He knew everything. But 150 questions are recorded in the Gospels that escape the lips of our Lord. It dawned on me that there are 52 Scripture questions every believer ought to answer before they go to heaven. And so we wrote the Jesus Code. Again, it's a devotional book, take you through a year, with 52 questions. If a man dies, shall he live again? All these questions in the Bible, most of them from the lips of Jesus. Who do you say that I am? That people ought to know before they get to heaven. And then we followed that up with the James Code of Practical Principles for Christian Living, the Daniel Code, how to really live in this culture, Daniel Code. was taken out of a culture that he lived in. And much like many of us, we're living in a new culture around us today and how he thrived in it. Then we have the Believer's Code, which is a 365-day devotional. And what's really taken off is the Christmas Code. And the Christmas Code is an Advent devotional, 25 sermons from December 1 to 25. And in the back of it is the plan of salvation, plainly experienced, where somebody could put their faith and trust in Christ. And it's a little paperback. There's a church in Syracuse, New York, wrote me, and they bought 9,000 of them and put them on every door ever. in a certain mile radius of their church with an invitation to their Christmas Eve service. That church runs about 800 or 900 in worship. 1,900 people showed up to their Christmas Eve service, and hundreds of people came to know.
SPEAKER 03 :
Well, you left the pastorate for another assignment, and yet you're probably preaching, quote-unquote, to more people now than you were then.
SPEAKER 02 :
In the pulpit. I preach almost every Sunday in the pulpit somewhere around the country. But through the printed page, God has just enlarged my coast and my sphere of influence. You know, there's an incredible verse of Scripture in 2 Corinthians 10-13. It says that God has assigned to us an area of influence. Now think about that. Somewhere there's somebody that every one of us can reach like no one else can because God has assigned an area of influence. Now you were a track star in high school. Oh, no. Well, you ran track with Bobby Morrow, the Olympic champion. That's him. Okay. But you ran track. Okay. So when the Corinthians were reading this and they saw that, they would have immediately jumped to their feet when they saw that Greek word Paul used to say that God has assigned an area of influence. It's the same Greek word that they would use in those Grecian games or we would use in track meets to describe a lane in which you're to run. When you run a relay race or you run in a track meet, you're assigned a lane and you can't get out of that. If you get out of that lane, you're disqualified and you have to run that race in that lane. And that's the word Paul used to say that God has assigned to every one of us a an area of influence. And so I want to just say this about you. You know, the word influence comes from two Latin words, in and flow. And the word picture is of this mighty river that's flowing vibrant and crystal clear and with a deep current, and into it run these little tributaries and streams and creeks that flow into it and are carried away in its flow. And that's where we get our word influence. And so I'm thankful to be here today because I'm one of those people of the millions that got caught up in Jim Dobson's flow. in that area of influence God assigned to you.
SPEAKER 03 :
That brings tears to my eyes because the truth of the matter is I can't take the credit for it. The Lord was doing something, and it was a shock to me all the way along as to what was happening. And the fact that he could use me, you know, Shirley and I were just college kids that got married and we really didn't know where the Lord was taking us. Although I was headed for graduate school, I knew what I wanted to do there. But it's just been amazing how doors have opened. And whenever I've gotten to a barrier, it has moved. And I couldn't do that. There's nothing I could do. And so it's almost scary to me to take the credit for what's taking place.
SPEAKER 02 :
Well, the last chapter in the new Nehemiah Code that we're going to talk about in a moment is about finishing strong. And if anybody's ever finished strong, you and Shirley certainly are finishing strong. And, you know, going back to influence. In fact, I wrote a book that all the royalties also go to mission dignity called VIP. You know, that acronym. We couldn't exist in our vocabulary in English if we didn't use acronyms. I mean, we were talking about education a while ago. If you want to go to college to earn a BA, you better have a good GPA and you better score well on the SAT or you're not going to get a BA and then can't get an MA. You know, we're being protected by the CIA and the FBI right now. Now, April 15th, the IRS is going to come knocking on my door. I'm cancer-free today because of a test called PSA test. I use the ESV because I think the NIV is a little too eclectic. We live by acronyms, and no acronym has muscled and maneuvered its way into English vernacular more than that one, VIP. Very important person, because being important is the life goal of a lot of people. But I've changed that acronym because I think it's supposed to mean VIP. very influential person. You know, the world has a way of forgetting those people that deem themselves important, but we have a long memory when it comes to those who've influenced our lives. And so VIP, and I want to say this about you before you cut me off, because if you're going to be a person of influence, a VIP, those are the three things that are vital. V is for vision. People who influence others know where they're going. People don't follow people that don't know where they're going. I Somebody says, well, that ought to be intellect because knowledge is power. Somebody says it ought to be intensity and passion. No, it's for integrity. I've known a lot of people with a lot of great intellect had no integrity and aren't in the race anymore. And P is for purpose. They don't just know where they are going and who they are. They know why they're here. And Jim, the one thing about you is this. You've lived your life knowing where you were going, who you were, and why you're here. And because of that, God has enlarged the scope of your ministry, and even to this very day. My goodness.
SPEAKER 03 :
Again, that's very touching to me, and the Lord's blessed you in the same way, and continues to do so.
SPEAKER 02 :
I'm simply saying what millions of people would say if they were sitting in the microphone, having the opportunity to say thank you.
SPEAKER 03 :
I heard you speak at the Ruth Shanahan's funeral. This was, what, two years ago?
SPEAKER 02 :
Two years ago.
SPEAKER 03 :
And was very impressed by what you had to say there. She was a great lady, wasn't she?
SPEAKER 02 :
She was a wonderful lady. Came from a wonderful lady by the name of Mary Crowley, her mom. And I just got through preaching her brother, Don Carter's funeral here the other day. But Ruth Shanahan's one of the greatest women I know. And she loved two organizations. She loved three organizations. She loved our First Baptist Church in Dallas. She loved the Billy Graham Association, and she loved Jim and Shirley Dobson. And she gave her life to those organizations and her money to those organizations.
SPEAKER 03 :
She helped support Shirley's work in the National Day of Prayer as well as ours. So I love her for a bunch of reasons. Your book, again, is called The Nehemiah Code, but the subtitle is very important. It's never too late for a new beginning. A new beginning reminds me of Ronald Reagan, because when he was inaugurated all over town, there were these billboards and signs saying, A New Beginning. And we had one. And we did have one. And this book really comes back to that phrase in many of the illustrations and points that you make.
SPEAKER 02 :
And you know, no matter who we are, what we've done, where we live— It's never too late for a new beginning. You know, there are a lot of people needing a new beginning. There are people who've lost their self-confidence looking for a new beginning. People have been divorced and they're trying to start over. They need a new beginning. People have lost a spouse. It opens the page of a new chapter, a new beginning in their lives. Churches are looking to reach revitalized new beginning. Businesses are needing a new beginning. Coaches are rebuilding teams. Rebuilding process is something that touches every single one of us. And while many people just look at Nehemiah for the leadership principles that are there, what I believe the book is really about is the fact that it's never too late to rebuild our lives. It's never too late to rebuild the broken walls and the burned gates of our lives and have a second chance.
SPEAKER 03 :
That new beginning often involves repentance and reconciliation and forgiveness, doesn't it? You start there. I mean, none of us is perfect. We have all sinned and fallen short of the glory of God. And he can take whatever mess you've made out of your life and make it new.
SPEAKER 02 :
You're in the middle of the bullseye because broken relationships, for example. There's an offending party and there's an offended party. In most cases, there's a little bit of both of us in all of them that get broken. But by and large, there's an offending party and an offended party. So two things have to happen for a new beginning. There must be, as you just said, a spirit of repentance on the part of the offending party. But there also has to be a spirit of reception on the heart of the offended party. And as a pastor for decades, one of the things I found in dealing with people's lives and broken relationships was often it was more the folks that just couldn't bring themselves to accept the fact the person had repented and received them back than it was the people that didn't repent to mend the broken relationship. So those two things are vital in doing that for sure. And forgiveness is the key.
SPEAKER 03 :
And we have just barely started the conversation about the Nehemiah Code, and the time is gone. You've flown here. Will you stay long enough to do another program with us? In a drop-dead, heartbeat minute. Well, we've got a lot to talk about here, and I can't wait to get into it. Great. I appreciate you. I appreciate your kind words to me, but they rebound from me to you immediately. And the life you've lived, you've lived a life of integrity and purpose. And thank you for being true to the gospel and to the one that we love, Jesus Christ. And he's continuing to bless you. Let's leave it there and pick it up next time. Wonderful. Wonderful.
SPEAKER 01 :
Well, you've been listening to Family Talk and an inspiring conversation featuring our own Dr. James Dobson and his guest, Dr. OS Hawkins, about finding new beginnings through God's grace. These powerful insights remind us that it's never too late to rebuild, whether it's in a relationship, our faith, or our purpose in life. Now, if you missed any part of today's broadcast or if you'd just like to share it with someone who needs this message of hope, go to drjamesdobson.org forward slash family talk. And keep in mind, you can also access this program on the JDFI app as well. Well, today's program about hope and new beginnings and others like it are made possible through the generous support of friends just like you. If today's conversation about God's transforming power has touched your heart, would you consider partnering with us? Your tax-deductible donation of any amount helps us continue broadcasting biblical truth to families all across America and all over the world. You can make a secure donation online when you go to drjamesdobson.org. That's drjamesdobson.org. Or give us a call at 877-732-6825. And before we leave for today, I want to remind you about a helpful way to receive daily encouragement from Family Talk, and that's by signing up for our free reading plans on the Bible app by YouVersion. Whether you're waiting in the carpool or taking a quiet moment before bedtime, these brief devotionals offer practical wisdom for your family journey, featuring topics like a mother's impact on her children, Now, the plans are designed to fit your busy schedule while helping you build a stronger family on God's foundation. To access these free reading plans, simply open the Bible app on your phone or tablet and search for JDFI, the Dr. James Dobson Family Institute. These bite-sized devotionals might be just what you need to bring fresh biblical perspective to your daily routine. I'm Roger Marsh, inviting you to join us again next time for part two of Dr. Dobson's powerful discussion with Dr. O.S. Hawkins. That's coming your way next time right here on Dr. James Dobson's Family Talk, the voice you trust for the family you love. This has been a presentation of the Dr. James Dobson Family Institute.
Join the conversation as Dr. James Dobson and Dr. Carol Swain delve into the fascinating journey of faith, academia, and mentorship. Dr. Swain, who emerged from the depths of poverty, shares her inspiring story of overcoming insurmountable odds to earn multiple degrees and become a university professor. Along the way, she found her true calling in Christ, transforming her life and mission.
SPEAKER 01 :
Hello, everyone. You're listening to Family Talk, a radio broadcasting ministry of the James Dobson Family Institute. I'm Dr. James Dobson, and thank you for joining us for this program.
SPEAKER 02 :
Well, welcome to Family Talk, the broadcast division of the Dr. James Dobson Family Institute. I'm Roger Marsh, and today we're continuing a remarkable conversation featuring Dr. Dobson and Dr. Carol Swain. Now, Dr. Swain grew up in rural poverty as one of 12 children, often missing a lot of school simply to survive. Later, she would go on to earn not one, but five college degrees and also teach at some of America's most prestigious universities. But academic success and professional accolades left her searching for something more. So stay with us right now as Dr. Swain shares her extraordinary journey from poverty to PhD right here on Family Talk. Doctor?
SPEAKER 01 :
Well, those of you who were with us yesterday heard the story, the early home life and experience in college of Dr. Carol Swain. And she had just graduated from when we got to that point at the end of the program. If you didn't hear that broadcast, you really ought to find it on the Internet. I mean, it's just an app away and listen because you're going to really be moved by what you're going to hear today. But it begins with what we said yesterday. Carol, thank you for being back with us. And I want to tell you a story. You told me one yesterday. I had a friend named David Hernandez. David came out of utter poverty in Mexico, and his father was a Christian, a Seventh-day Adventist Christian, and the whole family was Christian, but they had no resources, none, and they were hungry. And they swam the Rio Grande River and made it into the United States. Those who are concerned about illegal entrance into the United States, before you get too angry about that, listen to this story. Reverend Hernandez didn't have food for his family. and couldn't find a job of any type in the United States. So he went to the governor's mansion in Arizona and sat around on the grounds knowing that that man had to come out at some time. And when the governor came out, Mr. Hernandez went to him and said, sir, we're not asking for food. We don't want money. We want a job. Will you give us a job? And he gave them a job. And they began working the potato crop and other crops up and down the state of California. They lived under trees. They had an oil drum stove. And little David was the oldest son. He had never lived in even a chicken coop because they lived out under the trees. You know, you can imagine that little boy being out there. No schooling, no resources, no one to really help him except he was a believer in Jesus Christ. Well, the Adventists saw him out there and gave him a scholarship, and he began going to an Adventist school. And like you, he was brilliant. And he was able to do the work. And he went on at the top of his class, graduated from high school, and went to Loma Linda University, which is an Adventist university, and then to USC School of Medicine and to Loma Linda University School of Medicine. Graduated at the top of his class. went on and became an OBGYN, I think world known, and my friend. And who would have believed that humble little family, you know, with nothing, really nothing, would go on to produce a child who would become just a highly competent physician in that way. That story reminds me of you. in a way, because that is, in essence, what has happened to you. You graduated from college. We heard that last time. And then you began working through graduate school. Tell us that story.
SPEAKER 03 :
Well, I never anticipated that I would become a university professor. And when I embarked, you know, my college career, all I was thinking about was I had been in bad situations, a bad marital situation. I just wanted to earn enough money, you know, to be able to take care of my children. And so I earned the four-year degree in criminal justice. When I thought about my career options, I knew I did not want a law enforcement career. I thought I would do public administration. So I went to Virginia Tech to get my next degree, and I assumed that it would be – that I would work for the government, and my degree was in political science. But once I got there, professors took an interest in me, and they started encouraging me to go to graduate school. So I applied to graduate school, to UNC and to Duke. I got admitted to the University of North Carolina and started the Ph.D. program there. And while I was there, I was mentored by people that didn't look like me. I gave conference papers. I did whatever they told me I needed to do to be successful, which was come up with original ideas, give conference papers. And I did all of that. By the time I was graduating, I was known across the country as I was able to go on to the job market with my own short list of schools. I got a signing bonus. To be a professor. To be a professor. But growing up as a child, I thought you had to be rich to go to college. And how I see God's hand is that he put people in my life that steered me and circumstances steered me. Becoming a university professor is like the last thing I would have chosen because I didn't know anything about being a professor.
SPEAKER 01 :
Well, Carol, you turned out to be an outstanding student in all of the schools. You have, what, five degrees now?
SPEAKER 03 :
Yes, I do.
SPEAKER 01 :
And one of them is a Ph.D. from North Carolina University. In what?
SPEAKER 03 :
In political science.
SPEAKER 01 :
So when I introduced you yesterday as Dr. Carol Swain, that's because you do hold an earned Ph.D. from a big university.
SPEAKER 03 :
Yes, I have a Ph.D. from University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill and two master's degrees, one from Virginia Tech and the other from Yale in law.
SPEAKER 01 :
Who would have believed that little girl that you used to be? who didn't go to school 100 and something days per year because of circumstances, would actually earn a Ph.D. from a major university and then go on to be a professor at Princeton.
SPEAKER 03 :
That was where I got my tenure, my first job, and then I went from there to Vanderbilt. And so I've been at two elite institutions. But to me, the greatest miracle is that I was so painfully shy as a child and throughout my young adulthood that I would literally forget how to speak. And God removed that shyness after I had my Christian conversion experience.
SPEAKER 01 :
You would write the words out of your lecture.
SPEAKER 03 :
I would write the words out, and in college I would write down the question I was going to ask or the comment, and I would read it, and my voice would be quivering, and I would clutch the lectrum. If someone asked me my name, I'd be so nervous I would freeze. I would forget it. And the Lord impressed on my mind that he had given me a message that was bigger than me. As long as I focused on him, I could deliver the message. And since then, I would say that I've given thousands of interviews starting in the early 2000s on radio, TV, print, because I believe that God has called me to be a spokesperson to speak truth to power. And I learned a lot along the way about role models because the people that God has used in my life were not people that looked like me. They were white. They were... In almost every case, they were male, they were older, and they were conservative, and they really instilled in me this belief that I could do anything. And I did not see myself as handicapped, disadvantaged, because I was black, I was poor, I was a woman, I had children. Part of that time I was divorced. I did not see myself as handicapped.
SPEAKER 01 :
And then how did you come to know Jesus Christ?
SPEAKER 03 :
I became a devout believer late in my life, in my 40s, and this was after I had won national prizes and had been very successful in academia as a professor. Once I got to tenure, I would say that God yanked a rug out from under my feet because nothing I had accomplished brought me satisfaction. I won the highest prize in my profession, the Woodrow Wilson Prize for Best Book in Politics in the United States. It competed nationwide. And, um, I was the first black and the second woman to win that prize. And I won the prize for the best book on Congress. I was a co-winner of the V.O. Key Award for Best Book on Southern Politics. This was my first book. And I was earning more money than I ever imagined I would be earning. I should have been happy, but I was not happy. Those prizes and that recognition did not fill those empty places. God used students in my classes as well as secretaries, staff people, that I always had a heart for those people because, I guess, because of my background. But he was always after me, and he won.
SPEAKER 01 :
Tell me about that experience. Yeah. Do you remember just literally, consciously opening your heart to Him?
SPEAKER 03 :
Well, I mean, it was like a long journey, I would say, of just seeking and being interested in spiritual things. But I was in a medical hospital in Princeton in 1997, where I had an experience that I felt as if my life was being played out in front of me with a narrator, and that narrator was showing me different points in my life, telling me to choose. And I felt like, you know, the narrator was showing that, you know, sometimes I was good. Sometimes I was like an angel. Sometimes I was like a devil. You know, what was it going to be? And I chose Jesus Christ. That was a black Pentecostal chaplain at the Princeton Hospital. And anyone that knows about Princeton would know that that's not the kind of hospital that you get a Pentecostal chaplain, that you might get Catholic or Lutheran, Episcopalian. You don't get black Pentecostal. But he was there. And he talked with me and prayed with me. And there was a cleaning lady that threw a book in my bed, in the hospital bed, about Jesus. And she said, this is all you need. And that Pentecostal pastor arranged for me to get baptized, and I got baptized in the winter in a coal metal tub of what felt like ice water in Trenton. It took me two years later to realize what it meant to be a Christian. And so the two years after that baptismal in that little church place, I was blending Christianity, New Age, and Eastern. I had the Swain religion.
SPEAKER 01 :
But God was still— The Lord really took you on a journey. Yeah.
SPEAKER 03 :
He kept sending people to me, and it was like there was no way to get away from it. But I started changing my life. And I had been the kind of person that I always felt the church was full of hypocrites, and I would never be one of those hypocrites. That's how I felt. And— I don't think I would have been comfortable going to a church if I was actively practicing sin. You know, if I was involved in fornication or any kind of big thing that I knew was sin. So my life sort of cleaned up before I knew I was ready to become a devout believer of Christ. And at that point, it all came together for me. I realized that my life did not belong to me, that my life was... Belonged to Jesus. And I knew what it meant to be a follower of Jesus, that everything just totally came clear to me. And I've never looked back. And that was the end of my spiritual journey. journey. And I'm sure that people that have known me all my life waited for the other shoe to drop. And this, my faith in Christ, you know, has been enduring.
SPEAKER 01 :
You know, we don't have time for the complete story. And there are books that you've written, and there's more to it than we're going to be able to cover. But you have become very conservative in your outlook on life and you've been in a very liberal setting at these major universities where you've been targeted by students, very liberal students and sometimes professors and the local paper and everything that has done everything they could to destroy you. You have stood up against all that. There's a wonderful story there, Carol. And I urge you to write this story. I mean, it's remarkable when all aspects of it are understood. It is just really unbelievable what God has done in your life. And it is a story about him, not you.
SPEAKER 03 :
It is, and the body of Christ, because I don't think I would have survived had it not been for the prayers of the saints. And that was the biggest thing that came out of my salvation experience is that all of a sudden, you know, I had Christ and I had the body of Christ.
SPEAKER 01 :
Well, and they have supported you and prayed for you and been with you. And you've had the courage to stand up in a place where not very many people would have survived. And I admire you for that. Now, with our remaining time, I wish there were more. You have written a book called Abduction. And it has to do with what the culture is doing to young people today. Our children, the children of Christian people, are being snatched away. And they have been taught an alien philosophy and theology and way of life, things that are wrong. And this is going on in universities all around the country and even in public schools. And you said to me today, even in private schools.
SPEAKER 03 :
Yes. I mean, there's clearly a war against the children of believers. And a lot of parents, you know, are very trusting of the educational system. And what they miss is that there are people that have chosen to become teachers in public and private schools. just to get access to the children. And they have an indoctrination, this new morality that moves them away from the Judeo-Christian values and principles that Christian children are taught in Sunday school and by their parents. It moves them towards the humanism, the secularism, the political correctness. And the political left is doing a very effective job of stealing the children of believers.
SPEAKER 01 :
You saw that firsthand.
SPEAKER 03 :
I saw it firsthand. And there's so many parents that will tell you that when that child went off even to middle school by Thanksgiving, you see them shifting. And the political left shames the children, you know, and they treat Christianity in such a way that it stigmatizes. And I don't believe that we're doing enough to prepare our children for what they're going to confront in the world. One of the things that's needed is worldview training as well as apologetics, and that needs to be a part of the Sunday school curriculum. And parents need to realize that when they send their children to certain institutions, and there are many institutions that have prestige programs They are cooperating sometimes in a system that will destroy that child and everything they've tried to pour into the child.
SPEAKER 01 :
Would you recommend? that the people who are listening to us today and have high school graduates and young people that are deciding what to do next, go to those big prestigious schools and allow them to be subjected to the belief system that's alien to what Christians believe. What recommendations do you have to them?
SPEAKER 03 :
Well, part of my recommendations, you know, has to do with the parents need to educate themselves about, you know, the world system. And even some of the Christian schools are not safe places. Many of the people that I've met whose faith has been destroyed, the children's faith have been destroyed. It happened at a Christian school because when you go there, sometimes you let your guard down. You assume you're with people who are going to share your values. That's not always true. And I think that... Before parents pay their hard-earned money or the money they inherited to send their child to a college and university, they need to make sure that that child is sufficiently grounded in their faith and in their knowledge so that they will not be swept away. Because there is an indoctrination system that's designed to unlearn children. Everything they've been taught about their own values. And so parents need to be informed about what's taking place. And they need to, if they have children that are in public schools or elite private schools, to be quizzing those kids about what they're learning, to be looking at the textbooks, to really be meeting the teachers. Because otherwise, by the time they are made aware, it can be too late.
SPEAKER 01 :
It's impossible for me. to express how strongly I feel about what you just said. And obviously, I agree with you 100%. Let me clarify to say that there are a lot of great Christian teachers who are giving their lives to transmit their faith to the children who have been sent there and doing, even if they're in public schools, everything they can to defend the things that they believe and that they know their parents believe. So a lot of that goes on, and we can't castigate all teachers for that. But I'm telling you, that's not the norm anymore. The norm, especially in the large state universities, the large prestigious schools, but everywhere today, the culture wants to take your children to hell. And they're working on it every day. And you have to be very, very careful what you subject your children sons and daughters too, not only in colleges and graduate schools, but throughout the educational system, starting in kindergarten.
SPEAKER 03 :
Yes.
SPEAKER 01 :
It is amazing what is being done. And when you talk about stealing their minds away, I have seen it, I believe it, and it scares me to death.
SPEAKER 03 :
And the professors and teachers who are Christian who are fighting against that system, they find themselves targeted a lot. And, you know, it's very important for us to support them and to use the resources God has given us in a way that we are good stewards, but we're not funding things that are destroying the values of our children.
SPEAKER 01 :
Dr. Carol Swain has been our guest yesterday and today, and I've enjoyed so much not only hearing about your story, but what comes next. You are speaking and using your influence along the line of what we just talked about with this abduction concern. but other things. God's not through with you yet, is He?
SPEAKER 03 :
No, He's clearing my schedule, I think, for bigger and better things, and I will be still speaking on university campuses and still trying to help the believers strategize about how to restore, you know, what's left of our Judeo-Christian heritage.
SPEAKER 01 :
What a fascinating conversation this has been, and I especially seeing what God has done with you from those early, early days. When he was saying to you, you're different, Carol. I've got a plan for you. And I'm going to show you what it is as you go along. He's done that, hasn't he?
SPEAKER 03 :
He certainly has. One of the scriptures that he has impressed on my mind is Jeremiah 1.5. Before I formed you in your mother's womb, I knew you. And that applies to all of us.
SPEAKER 01 :
It does. And for those who are listening to us who don't know him, who have not met him, who have not had the kind of encounter, you and I have enjoyed. I would simply pray a simple prayer. You don't have to earn it, do you? You don't have to get out and prove it. All you have to do is accept it. And I trust that the Lord will use what we've been saying these two days to have an influence on thousands of people who are listening to us. Blessings to you, Dr. Swain. Thank you so much. I honor you for what you've done with your life and how hard you've worked to get where you are, but it's only the beginning.
SPEAKER 03 :
To God be the glory.
SPEAKER 02 :
Amen. Dr. Carol Swain's journey from childhood poverty to becoming a distinguished professor beautifully illustrates how faith, determination, and mentorship can transform a life. Well, this concludes our powerful two-part conversation featuring our own Dr. James Dobson and a special in-studio guest, Dr. Carol Swain, on today's edition of Family Talk. By the way, if you missed part one, I encourage you to catch up by going online at to drjamesdobson.org forward slash family talk and search our broadcast archives there also don't forget you can spend a few minutes every day gaining wisdom for your family and your marriage with free reading plans from the dr james dobson family institute simply download the bible app by you version on your phone or tablet and search for our ministry jdfi to get started today Well, I'm Roger Marsh, inviting you back next time for another edition of Dr. James Dobson's Family Talk, the voice you trust for the family you love. This has been a presentation of the Dr. James Dobson Family Institute.
Join Dr. James Dobson as he speaks with Dr. Carol Swain about her life story characterized by impressive transformation and triumph. Born into a family of 12 children in a two-room shack, Dr. Swain's challenges were immense. Listen as she recounts her path from dropping out of school to ultimately earning a Ph.D., highlighting the pivotal role of education and faith in her life. This episode is a moving reminder that with perseverance and faith, even the most daunting obstacles can be overcome, leading to a fulfilling life of purpose and success.
SPEAKER 03 :
Hello, everyone. You're listening to Family Talk, a radio broadcasting ministry of the James Dobson Family Institute. I'm Dr. James Dobson, and thank you for joining us for this program.
SPEAKER 01 :
Well, welcome to Family Talk. I'm Roger Marsh. On today's program, we're going to hear a story of remarkable transformation, literally from a two-room shack with no indoor plumbing to the halls of academia. Our guest is Dr. Carol Swain, and she grew up as one of 12 children in rural Virginia, facing poverty, family dysfunction, and limited opportunities. And yet, through God's providence and her own determination, she would rise to become an accomplished author and respected professor. Dr. Swain's journey from dropping out of school to earning a Ph.D. reminds us that with faith and perseverance, no obstacle is too great to overcome with God's help. Let's get into this fascinating conversation as she talks with Dr. James Dobson about her story right here on Family Talk.
SPEAKER 03 :
You're about to meet a woman with a fascinating story to tell. I met her at a conference and she stood up and talked at one point in the meeting. And I was so taken with her that afterwards I walked over and introduced myself. and even mentioned the possibility of your being a guest on the program, speaking to my guest. She is named Dr. Carol Swain. If you don't know her, you should. She's written six books, and she has had quite an experience through the years, and Her journey is unlike anything I've ever heard. Carol, welcome to Family Talk.
SPEAKER 02 :
Thank you. It's quite a pleasure.
SPEAKER 03 :
I am delighted to have you here, and I want you to take us back to your childhood and give us a glimpse of, I called it a journey, your journey through life. And it began with you being one of 12 children. children in a state of abject poverty.
SPEAKER 02 :
Yes, I was born and raised in rural Virginia, a little community called Chambersburg that was so small that, you know, if you batted your eye, you could just pass right through it. And the house that I grew up in, it was, for the early part of my life, it was a two-room shack, pretty much.
SPEAKER 03 :
Literally a shack.
SPEAKER 02 :
literally a shack. I have some photographs of it that was taken a few years ago, but it was very tiny, and we had a living room and a kitchen, and the firstborn children slept on the kitchen floor. Later, my stepfather expanded the house to four rooms, and then we had a bedroom for the children, a bedroom for my mother and my stepfather, and there was a Bed for the girls. They all slept together in a bed for the boys. And no indoor plumbing. So six, seven, eight kids per bed? Well, at that time, it was not all 12 had been born. Yeah. And so probably there may have been nine of us that lived in that circumstance. Did you go to school? I did go to school, but in my family, we all dropped out after the eighth grade. And I can remember one year that we all failed school. And we failed because we missed 80 of 180 days. And so it didn't matter that when I went to school and my older sister was We would almost always make A's and B's, even though we missed lots of school. That year, it snowed a lot. We did not have snowshoes or boots, so we stayed home until the snow melted, and that caused us to miss 80 of 180 days, and the whole family failed.
SPEAKER 03 :
How can you do well academically, Lou, missing that much school and still get A's?
SPEAKER 02 :
Well, I think it was because, for one thing, I realized more and more just how intelligent my mother was and is. And then my grandmother, that these were people that were very intelligent. But I had access through my grandmother to books, the classics. And these were volumes that she had been given by a lady that she worked for. She was paid one time with a library. And so there was a bookcase that had encyclopedias, the classics, and she would give us access to that. And so even though, you know, I was in this dire poverty in Bedford, Virginia, my grandparents were a little bit better off and we could walk to their house and we could get access to those books. And for some reason, my older sister and I, we just did very well in school.
SPEAKER 03 :
You know, that reminds me of Dr. Ben Carson, whose mother insisted that he read. If a kid will read, he can overcome an awful lot of handicaps.
SPEAKER 02 :
I certainly will agree with that. And back then, living in the country, there wasn't a whole lot to do. And you didn't have all the competition that young people have today with the Internet and just various things competing for their time. But I was an avid reader, and I suppose my older sister as well. And we did extremely well in school. even though we missed a lot. And I can remember times when teachers would crack jokes, like maybe I'd walk into the classroom and the teacher would say, look, we have a visitor today, or look who showed up today. And if other students laughed, I can remember her saying, what are you laughing at? She knows more than you do, and you're here every day.
SPEAKER 03 :
Obviously, you were a very bright kid.
SPEAKER 02 :
I think so.
SPEAKER 03 :
And your life since those days has proved it because you've gone on academically to do things that no one would have anticipated. Now, how difficult was it for you to live in a dysfunctional family like that? Your real dad, your biological father, left early, and your mother divorced your stepdad soon after that.
SPEAKER 02 :
Yeah, I don't remember when my mother lived with my biological father and she had three children by him and they divorced. And so I had a stepfather. And in those circumstances, you know, it was difficult. Did you feel poor? I knew. It was very vivid. I knew I was poor. Were you embarrassed by that? We were teased in school. And at the time I started school, it was during the era of segregation, and so we went to a black school, and later that school was integrated. But during the time that I was there, we were the poorest of the poor. It was always that way. And we would be teased for all sorts of reasons. For one thing, my maiden name, was Payne, P-A-Y-N-E. And so that lent itself to quite a few jokes independently. None of them funny. None of them funny. And they would laugh at the lunches, if you didn't have sliced bread. Back then, you know, my mother, she would make biscuits and put whatever she had in the biscuits. And to avoid being teased, we would eat our lunch either before school or after school. And we never had our hair fixed, you know, straightened. Back then, you know, black children that came from middle-class families, they had their hair straight. We had plaits and, you know, torn clothes, and I'm sure we were dirty. I'm sure we were smelly. We were the kids that were poor, and we knew we were poor. And what I can remember is that we act today like bullying is something that was just discovered. I can attest to the fact that bullying has always been around.
SPEAKER 03 :
It has, and it's still as painful as it ever was.
SPEAKER 02 :
It is.
SPEAKER 03 :
Did you change your name to get away from that word pain? No.
SPEAKER 02 :
I didn't mind leaving pain behind.
SPEAKER 03 :
Well, you're a beautiful woman today and a very intelligent person. And life has not been easy for you, though, has it?
SPEAKER 02 :
No, I mean, when I think about my life, there's been so much pain and suffering. I married at 16, not because I was in love, but to get away from home. And even before I married at 16, at some point, the circumstances, my mother was an alcoholic, stepfather, they would fight every weekend. And there was one particular fight that sort of seared in my mind. And And in the minds of some of my siblings, where my stepfather was chasing my mother with an axe, and we were screaming, you know, trying to keep him from killing her. And he eventually broke one of her legs, and she has polio. And so she was always a small woman. But my oldest sister and I went to live with the father we didn't know in our early teens. At some point, you know, he got sick. And I literally went to the juvenile authorities and filed a petition to be placed in a foster home because at that point I knew some children that were in foster homes and I thought that was better. So I filed the petition, and what happened was other members of my family turned on me because they thought that the social workers would take all my mother's children away and that even though I was in a bad circumstance, they made me feel tremendously guilty for having done that. The day of the court hearing, all I did was cry. I didn't talk at all. And so the judge said I could live with my grandmother. And I lived with her for a little while, but that was not a good solution. And so my next wise idea was to get married at 16. And I remember that I was not old enough to get married when I made the decision. My mother had to sign the paperwork. And I didn't marry at that time thinking that I would ever want to get out of it. I was so thrilled. that anyone would have me. And I married a man that lived next door to me. By this time, we'd moved into the city. He purchased my first store-bought clothes at a high-end women's store.
SPEAKER 03 :
And so they were falling off my— You had never bought clothes before.
SPEAKER 02 :
No, and they were falling off my little girlish frame because they were women's clothes. And so they were high-end, but they didn't fit very well. Ha, ha, ha.
SPEAKER 03 :
You moved into town. How many of the 12 kids in your family successfully got out of poverty? How many of them went on to have successful lives?
SPEAKER 02 :
They've all struggled, and their children have struggled. And there are several that are working, but we all dropped out of high school after the eighth grade. No one went through the system and graduated with a high school diploma. But three of us have high school equivalencies. My oldest sister has a high school equivalency and one of my siblings. And The sibling that has it, he got his while he was in jail and he sent it to me, his prized possession. And he's someone very intelligent. But it's like when the odds are stacked against you and. Our family was downwardly mobile. It's almost impossible to get out. And so I have been extremely blessed in the sense that for some reason, you know, God did set me apart, and he opened doors for me, and I was the only one to reach college. And I've had, you know, a very successful life within academia.
SPEAKER 03 :
Yeah, I want to talk about that in a minute. But you always felt... a little bit different from the rest of the kids.
SPEAKER 02 :
Yes.
SPEAKER 03 :
You told me you felt like you'd been parachuted in from outer space somewhere because you didn't seem to fit the mold.
SPEAKER 02 :
Yeah, I can remember my earliest memories of myself. And my mother said I used to hide behind furniture and peer out. I guess I had a lot of fear, but it was like I had been dropped from outer space. I was observing, you know, these people live their lives and I was part of them, but I was not part of them. And from my earliest memories, I remember feeling like there's something I'm supposed to do. And today as a Christian, I would say that it was the call on my life that somehow deep down I knew that there was something I was supposed to do. It didn't make any sense to me. But I always had that sense of urgency and a sense that there was something I was supposed to do and that I was watching these people. And, you know, at some point I had a fantasy life to sort of— endure in those circumstances. But I was in the family, but not of the family.
SPEAKER 03 :
You said that on the bus, on the way to school, you would fantasize about who you really were.
SPEAKER 02 :
Yeah, I had a fantasy life. And in my fantasy life, you know, this is probably embarrassing and my enemies could use it against me, but I've always shared the truth about it. I used to fantasize that I was this rich white male named David. And David grew up as I grew up because this was over a period of years. And so when I was a kid, he was a kid. And then when I was a teen, he was a teen. And he was rich and he was powerful. And so even though I was trapped in that poverty, I had that mode of escape, and I sort of could go into my fantasy world while I was on my way to school, on the bus, and on my way back home, which is probably a 45-minute ride.
SPEAKER 03 :
When did you first become aware that God was alive, God was real, and that He also was watching you?
SPEAKER 02 :
Well, my first... experience with God that I knew that there was a God was when I was Probably 12, 11 or 12. I remember being in a church program. Now, we were not regular churchgoers, but my grandmother was a pastor's daughter. And every now and then she would do something. And so she did a program, a church program, and she put her grandchildren in it. And I had a poem to recite one Easter. And as I was standing on the stage reciting my poem, The sun came through the window and it shone on me in such a way that I knew there was a God. And I knew I wanted to serve him. And when I got down off the stage, I told people I wanted to get baptized. I didn't get baptized at that point. And then life went on. But that was the first encounter that I remember with God. And growing up, I've always known that there was something bigger than me guiding my life, but I would not have said it was Jesus Christ. I just always knew that there was more than what I was hearing from people around me. And some of what I heard from people around me was... You know, you've probably heard these things. There's no such thing as spirits. Yet I knew that there was a spiritual world, and I don't know how I knew that there was a spiritual world, but I always knew that there was more than what I was being told.
SPEAKER 03 :
Wouldn't it have been wonderful if a little church nearby had come knocked on your door and got acquainted with you and befriended you and your family? and then introduced you to Christ, because you were sitting duck for him. You were waiting there for him to come along.
SPEAKER 02 :
Well, I mean, here's what happened. Shortly after that experience in the Methodist church with the Easter program, there was a knock on my door, and it was Jehovah's Witnesses. And they started a Bible study with me. And so part of my teen years was spent in affiliation with them. And I have mixed feelings about that experience. I can see the fact that it was a cult. And I broke away from them, you know, in my early, late teens, early 20s. I broke away from them.
SPEAKER 03 :
Yeah. So even though you dropped out of high school, you later got a GED, a general education degree.
SPEAKER 02 :
I did. And Part of the teen years was lots of depression, lots of suicide gestures where I would take bottles of pills and I would call someone and sort of set up my rescue. I guess suicide gesture is the right way to describe it because, no, it was a cry for help. And doing one of those suicide gestures, the doctor, he told me I was intelligent, I was attractive, I could do more with my life. And it stunned me because I had forgotten that I used to be smart. I had forgotten that when I was in school that I had been smart. And I was so embarrassed that I only had a high school equivalency. By that time, I'd had two children. And every time I gave birth, I had to put down the highs. Education of the mother, highest grade completed. And I was so embarrassed to put down eighth grade. When the doctor said that to me and reminded me that I was smart and around this time, my high school class was graduating, the class I would have graduated with. And I certainly knew a lot of the people that were graduating weren't as smart as I was. I learned about the high school equivalency, the GED. And when I learned about it, I was too young to take the test because Virginia had a law that you had to wait until you were 20. But I took the test. I scored really high on everything except math. And that gave me a sense of accomplishment. And 1975 was a turning point year for me. And it was the year that Jehovah's Witnesses had taught that the world would end. I left them before the world was supposed to have ended on October 14th. I had already broken off association because at that point I didn't care. I got my high school equivalency. I had a daughter die of a crib death, and I filed for a divorce. And sometimes when I tell my story, I say my world ended in 1975. 1976, I started college, and the rest was like history for me.
SPEAKER 03 :
How did you get accepted to college?
SPEAKER 02 :
Well, it was a community college, and I was making C's without trying. And when I decided to study, you know, I started making the dean's list. And I graduated within the two-year period with a degree in business. That was not my choice. I wanted to do commercial art because I've always been artistic. I wanted to do art. I was told to be practical. And so my practical decision was to take business merchandising. So I graduated with that business degree and started applying for jobs. And I kept being told that I needed a four-year degree to be a store manager. I wanted to manage a store. I also noticed that as I was filling out the job applications that I didn't have enough stuff to distinguish myself. I didn't have many awards. I didn't have these accolades for the application. I'd been on the dean's list twice. So I decided I would get the four-year degree. I went through the college catalog of Roanoke College, which is a Lutheran school, looking for the major that had the least amount of math, and that was criminal justice. And I chose that as a major. But I also made a decision that I would be an honors student, and I graduated from Roanoke College magna cum laude. Did you really? Yeah. I did. And I was inducted into the highest honor societies they had. And later when they got Phi Beta Kappa, I was inducted into that. And I started a scholarship there for minorities that was meant to be an academic scholarship. And I did all of that, even though I was still working at the community college library full time. And this is God's story in the sense that I had favor at that community college library because I was willing to work nights and weekends. I started as a work-study student. The regular employees would call out, you know, sick, or they didn't show up. There would be a crisis about who's going to work at night. I would always volunteer to work. So a full-time position was created for me nights and weekends in circulation, and I was able to keep that job for five years, go to the four-year college, full-time, and do my homework at night and take my children to the library when I needed to. And I see that as God's provision.
SPEAKER 03 :
You know, Carol, this story of yours really is a story about God and His intervention in your life. You and I were standing in the hall before we came into the studio, and I told you that I thought one of the most incomprehensible things in my life through the years has been that God, the creator of the entire universe, who knows every secret, who is omniscient, who is all-knowing, all-caring, and created this universe that, as far as we know, runs at least 30 billion light years in all directions from the earth. Imagine that. And that's probably not even the start of it because he's infinite and his universe is infinite. And yet, and yet, he knows me. David said, who art thou that you are mindful of us? I can't comprehend that. How did he come to know and care about Carol Swain? Why would he care? Why would he waste his time on us mere mortals? But he does, and he cares about everybody. And he was looking for you and a relationship with you when you didn't even know it. And you were in sin, and you were not looking for him. And yet he was there. That's a story in itself. But he was not through with you, Carol. And he's not through with you yet. And your story is not complete. And we're going to get right back into it tomorrow because it is a wonderful story of God's intervention and God's love here. And I know you love him with all your heart now, which is what I saw in that first encounter with you at a conference not too long ago. Thank you for being our guest today. And tomorrow we're going to pick up with the story with you graduating from college. And now what? Thank you for being with us.
SPEAKER 02 :
Thank you.
SPEAKER 01 :
Dr. Carol Swain's story of finding hope through education and faith reminds us that even in life's darkest valleys, God's hand is always at work, weaving a greater purpose than we can see in that moment. Friend, you're listening to Dr. James Dobson's Family Talk and part one of Dr. Dobson's inspiring conversation with Dr. Carol Swain. Be sure to join us again next time when Dr. Swain continues to share her story. You will not want to miss the conclusion of her powerful testimony of God's faithfulness. Now, if you'd like to listen to today's broadcast again or share it with a friend, simply visit drjamesdobson.org forward slash family talk or download the free JDFI app from the Apple or Android store to access this and other great content. Looking for more wisdom for your family? Well, access free reading plans on parenting, discipline, and more when you search for the Dr. James Dobson Family Institute in the Bible app by YouVersion. You can do that today. Well, I'm Roger Marsh inviting you back for part two of Dr. Dobson's conversation with Dr. Carol Swain. You'll hear the conclusion of her journey from poverty to PhD coming up right here next time on the next edition of Dr. James Dobson's Family Talk. This has been a presentation of the Dr. James Dobson Family Institute.
