Listeners are invited to explore the multi-faceted interpretations of Romans in this episode of Grace in Focus. Bob and Ken emphasize the significance of Romans as a manual for deliverance from God’s wrath, addressing common misconceptions about the text being solely evangelistic. The episode highlights the vital distinction between spiritual and carnal mindsets, elaborating on the spiritual journey of believers while offering a deeper understanding of the book’s essential teachings on grace, sanctification, and eternal security.
00:00:00 Introduction to Grace Evangelical Society
00:10:59 The Role of the Spirit in Spiritual Maturity
00:11:52 Can a Carnally Minded Believer Enter Heaven?
SPEAKER 03 :
The following is a listener-supported ministry from the Grace Evangelical Society. Hello, welcome to Grace in Focus on this Monday. Glad you are joining us. This is the radio broadcast and podcast ministry of the Grace Evangelical Society. The Grace Evangelical Society promotes focused free grace theology. We’re located in North Texas, and you can find out more about us by going to our website, faithalone.org. There we hope you will sign up for our blogs, read them, like them, and enjoy them, and many other things to explore on that website at faithalone.org. Now with today’s question and answer discussion, here are Bob Wilkin and Ken Yates.
SPEAKER 02 :
We got a question from Bobby concerning Romans chapter 8, and Romans chapter 8, of course, in the Free Grace community is discussed a great deal, and I’m sure we’ve done some other shows on Romans 8, and I know that in my own life, Romans 8 played a huge role in letting me see the truth of free graciology. Now, in his case, he’s talking about some verses that occur before the ones that I struggled with years ago.
SPEAKER 01 :
Right. And by the way, he’s talking about an issue where we talked about Romans 8, 6, that to be carnally minded is death, but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. And so he wants to know if the carnally minded believer still goes to heaven. And we’ll talk about that later. But I think it’s important for people to recognize that this issue doesn’t start in Romans 8. It starts in Romans 1, especially 16, 17, and 18. And the issue is, what is the salvation that’s being spoken of in the book of Romans? We hold the view that Romans is talking about deliverance from God’s wrath in this life.
SPEAKER 02 :
Yeah, and I will say that for those who aren’t familiar with the Free Grace teachings and the movements of the movement, I will say that this is a hard hill for people to climb over because they see Romans as an evangelistic book.
SPEAKER 01 :
I just did a talk at Bayside Community Church in Tampa, and it’s on our YouTube channel. If you go to YouTube, Grace Evangelical Society, it’s called Overview of Romans, and I talk about that very fact.
SPEAKER 02 :
Right. But I tell you that once you see it, I think if you can break away—and that was my problem when I was in seminary and I was struggling with Romans 8. The traditional way of seeing this all is evangelism, talking about people going to heaven and not— Christian living and the value of walking by the Spirit and the benefits and blessings of walking by the Spirit, until you see that, you’re not going to understand Romans. But once you do, the book of Romans is like looking—you have a paradigm shift.
SPEAKER 01 :
It opens up. Yeah. And by the way, in terms of Bobby’s question— Well, first off, let me just say, yeah, his question is—
SPEAKER 02 :
Now, you said the carnally minded believer. Yeah. There are going to be a lot of people who say, well, the carnally minded is not a believer. But the question is, the one who is carnally minded or is walking according to the flesh, the question is, does that person, to use Bobby’s words, go to heaven? Or we would say be in the kingdom.
SPEAKER 01 :
Yeah, the problem, of course, with this is Romans is written to believers, believers in Rome. It’s called the Epistle to the Romans because he’s writing. And in chapter 16, he actually lists a bunch of their names. And there’s 15 different congregations he mentioned that meet in small apartments called tenements or in small homes or But they’re all believers, and they’re all born again. He’s not writing to unbelievers. He’s not writing to any unbelievers. He’s only writing to believers. Now, he does in Romans 2 talk about unbelievers and people who have the wrong mindset, a legalistic mindset. But the justification section of Romans is chapters 321 to 424 or 425, depending on—
SPEAKER 02 :
how you take that and all of romans is about deliverance from wrath the deliverance not of unbelievers but of believers yeah we’re doing an old testament commentary and i’m working on proverbs now and this idea of wrath comes up all the time in proverbs you know that it’s called the way of death right you know that the wicked experience wrath so the question is can you do that as a believer Absolutely. Can I live wickedly and experience now in Proverbs?
SPEAKER 01 :
And by the way, in Proverbs, the wicked man is not the unbeliever. The wicked man is anyone who’s wicked, believer or unbeliever.
SPEAKER 02 :
Exactly. For example, if I live wickedly, I’m going to experience I can experience the wrath of the king. I can experience the wrath of my neighbors. I mean, if I’m doing bad things to my neighbor, my neighbor is not going to be happy with me. And I can experience the wrath of God. Here and now is the point. And that’s Romans 1. The wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, whether they be believers or unbelievers.
SPEAKER 01 :
Exactly. And Romans 5, 6, 7, and 8 is the sanctification section. And this is the section telling the believer how to escape the wrath of God by being set apart. If we live… sanctified lives, then we’re saved from God’s wrath in this life. And that’s why Romans 8, 6 is kind of a microcosm of Romans 5 through 8. To be carnally minded is death.
SPEAKER 02 :
Yeah, let me read these verses that Bobby brings up here, and then we’ll kind of summarize them.
SPEAKER 03 :
Please plan to join us at Camp Copas in Denton, Texas. The Grace Evangelical Society’s 2025 National Conference is May 19th through 22nd. Good fun, wonderful fellowship, recreational opportunities for the younger ones and the older ones, great teaching. Our theme this year is dispensationalism and rewards. VBS for kids, too. More information and early bird registration now at faithalone.org slash events. That’s faithalone.org slash events. Please come and join us.
SPEAKER 02 :
Let me read these verses that Bobby brings up here. We’ll start in verse 5. For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh. The question is, can a believer do that?
SPEAKER 01 :
And he’s talking to believers about this.
SPEAKER 02 :
Right. He said, you can set your mind on the flesh. I can set my mind on the flesh, okay? But those who live according to the Spirit… The things of the Spirit.
SPEAKER 01 :
They set their minds on the things of the Spirit. Right.
SPEAKER 02 :
I’m going to walk by the Spirit. Now, here’s the main verse, verse 6. For to be carnally minded is death, but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. So Bobby’s asking the question, is this carnally minded person going to be in the kingdom? And we’re going to say, yes. If they’re a believer, which is who he’s writing to, then the answer is yes. Of course. He’s a believer who has set his mind on the flesh. And he refers to, Paul says, that kind of life is death. Now, what does he mean by that?
SPEAKER 01 :
Well, it means like in Proverbs or Psalms or all the wisdom literature, Ecclesiastes. James. Yeah, even Job to some degree, the Sermon on the Mount, that’s all wisdom literature. In that, the way of wickedness is the way of death. And so basically it is the more we sin… the more we invite our death. Like James 1, verse 15, desire gives birth to sin, and sin, when it’s fully mature, gives birth to death.
SPEAKER 02 :
And it’s interesting, James says, don’t be deceived, my beloved brethren. Exactly. He’s talking to believers.
SPEAKER 01 :
And I remember when I had Zane Hodges for James, and I don’t think he knew about blackjack, but he knew there was some kind of card game where you get cards given to you face up, right? So he said, it’s like this person is a dealer in some of these gambling games. And the dealer says, would you like another card? And the guy says, yes. And so he gets a card and the card doesn’t say two, three, four. It says death on it. Would you like another card? Death. Hit me. Death. Hit me. Every time you’re hitting him, you’re giving him more and more approaching death. And Hodges’ point about James 1.15 is, the more our sin matures, the closer our death becomes.
SPEAKER 02 :
And couldn’t we also say, I never had a conversation with Zane with this, but the way I say it is, even if it doesn’t result in my physical death, I’m experiencing death. I’m walking in death because I’m walking according to my flesh and my flesh is spiritually what we would call spiritually dead. There’s no life in it. So what am I reaping?
SPEAKER 01 :
Exactly. No, Hodges said, and I believe this is consistent with both Hebrew and New Testament theology, that death is not just the moment we die, but it is a process leading up to death.
SPEAKER 02 :
Sure.
SPEAKER 01 :
So that we may experience months or years or decades of wrath from God before we physically stop breathing. But that’s all the path of death. It’s a death life.
SPEAKER 02 :
In Proverbs, Solomon mainly, but there are some sections where other people are writing, but they say that the house of the prostitute leads to death, leads to the grave. What does that mean?
SPEAKER 01 :
It doesn’t mean one visit to the prostitute leads to death or can. Right. But most of the time, what it’s saying is that’s a path that’s going to lead to increased suffering, pain, financial losses, and ultimately death.
SPEAKER 02 :
And we can see that. I mean, if it’s a immoral woman who’s cheating on her husband, you’re going to get the wrath of her husband coming after you. You’re going to get the disapproval of the community. You’re going to get diseases. You’re going to lose, as you say, financially. And it could wind up killing you. Right. All the any of these things could wind up killing you. So that’s the experience of death.
SPEAKER 01 :
It’s important to recognize this is quite related to Paul’s words in 1 Corinthians 2.14-3.3. He talks about three people, the natural man, the spiritual man, the carnal man. The spiritual man, Paul says, has the mind of Christ, 1 Corinthians 2.16. We would say the mind of the Spirit. The mind of the spirit. He’s spiritually minded. The carnal man thinks carnally. And the carnal man, Paul calls a baby Christian. And he says, look, these believers in Corinth have been believers about five years. They shouldn’t be baby Christians anymore.
SPEAKER 02 :
They’re still carnally minded.
SPEAKER 01 :
And if you go to Hebrews, Hebrews chapter 5, like verses 12 through 15, that section is saying by now you ought to be teachers. But you need reminders of the elementary principles because you’ve not grown. So the way—I think it’s important, Bobby, to recognize spiritual maturity comes through the Word of God changing our thinking. Romans 12, 2.
SPEAKER 02 :
Through the power of the Spirit.
SPEAKER 01 :
Right. The Spirit takes the Word of God, renews our mind, and transforms our behavior. Romans 8.6 is tied in with Romans 12.1 and 2. Don’t be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind. Spiritually minded, mature, godly believer escaping the wrath of God. Carnally minded… immature baby believer experiencing God’s wrath if they continue in that immature, carnally minded state.
SPEAKER 02 :
And the question very directly is, can the believer with this carnal mindset go to heaven? They have to. The answer is yes, because they have eternal life. They have eternal life. They can’t lose it. But they will experience God’s wrath in this life and the loss of rewards in the one to come.
SPEAKER 01 :
But the key there is the believer. The believer. They have to be a believer because unbelievers can be carnally minded. In fact, typically are. Well, there might be a few. I think Cornelius in Acts 10 was spiritually minded, but we can argue that one.
SPEAKER 02 :
Well, thanks for the question, Bobby. And we hope this helps get a clear understanding what the book of Romans is about. Because the book of Romans is a book about grace. And remember, keep grace in focus.
SPEAKER 03 :
We invite you to check out our Monday, Wednesday and Friday five-minute YouTube videos at YouTube Grace Evangelical Society. You will love the content and learn a lot. There are a lot of costs involved in staying on the air. That’s why we so much appreciate our financial partners. If you’d like to learn how to become one, you can find out more by going to faithalone.org. On our next episode, will believers answer for sin at the judgment seat of Christ? Please join us, and until then, let’s keep grace in focus.
SPEAKER 02 :
The preceding has been a listener-supported ministry from the Grace Evangelical Society.
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