Join Dr. Dobson as he delves into a compelling discussion with Dr. Everett Piper about the state of modern universities. They explore the consequences of universities prioritizing feelings over facts, and how this shift impacts freedom and education. Dr. Piper shares insights from his viral stance against cultural conformity, emphasizing the need for Christian principles in navigating the current educational landscape. Discover how this conversation sheds light on preparing young people to stand strong in their convictions.
Welcome everyone to Family Talk. It’s a ministry of the James Dobson Family Institute supported by listeners just like you. I’m Dr. James Dobson and I’m thrilled that you’ve joined us.
SPEAKER 03 :
Well, welcome to Dr. James Dobson’s Family Talk. I’m Roger Marsh. Going to college represents a pivotal moment in a young person’s life, newfound freedoms, added responsibilities, and hopefully the sharpening of their minds through higher education. But how is that possible in today’s confused culture, when many universities seem to be abandoning truth in favor of personal preferences? Well, today’s classic edition of Family Talk takes a critical look at the state of higher education with Dr. Everett Piper, former president of Oklahoma Wesleyan University and author of the book called Not a Daycare, The Devastating Consequences of Abandoning Truth. For 17 years, Dr. Piper served as a bold voice for biblical truth as president of Oklahoma Wesleyan. Currently, he’s a contributing columnist for The Washington Times. You may have seen him on Fox News, The O’Reilly Factor, The 700 Club, or heard him on the radio on programs like ours. During today’s conversation with Dr. Dobson, Dr. Piper breaks down his viral response to a student who claimed to be, quote unquote, offended by a chapel message on love, a moment that sparked a national conversation about the state of American universities. Let’s join that discussion right now here on Dr. James Dobson’s Family Talk.
SPEAKER 05 :
If you are a parent or grandparent, you know this, but our young people today are being Their value system is being vilified on colleges and universities throughout the United States. Students around the nation are being coerced to believe that God, the Bible, and even truth itself is archaic and hateful and should be blotted out from the public square. Students are being deceived by cultural intolerance, which masquerades as tolerance. Any person who disagrees with the ideas of moral relativism are persecuted and ostracized on university grounds. Now, our guest with me today is speaking out against some of these characteristics of today’s universities and colleges. And he’s written a book called Not a Daycare, The Devastating Consequences of Abandoning The author is Dr. Everett Piper. He is the president of Oklahoma Wesleyan University, has been for the last 15 years. He’s an outspoken advocate of free speech and religious liberty. And today on Family Talk, we’re going to talk about some of the lies that are being told to the next generation and how Christians live. can educate and train their kids to fight for what is right. Dr. Piper, I am so glad to have you as our guest today.
SPEAKER 02 :
Dr. Dobson, it’s my honor. Thank you so much for having me on your show.
SPEAKER 05 :
I have met you, I’m sure, at some conference along the way, but I certainly know you and know of you and know what you stand for and know your commitment to truth. and your willingness to take the heat for saying some of the things that you’ve written in this book. I’m going to ask you to begin our conversation today by telling us what happened with a student who was in one of your chapel services at your college, and he didn’t like it. And from that came this book. You need to tell us that story.
SPEAKER 02 :
Well, let me set the context here. Oklahoma Wesleyan University is boldly and unapologetically conservative and Christian. We stand for four things. You cannot enroll at Oklahoma Wesleyan University for not knowing what those four things are. We stand for the primacy of Jesus Christ. Jesus is the Son of God. The priority of Scripture. Scripture is the Word of God. The pursuit of truth. Truth is given by God. It isn’t made up by you or me. And then the practice of wisdom, holiness, sanctification, obedience is demanded by God. It isn’t optional. We say these things constantly. In our four-color brochures, in our marketing, you cannot come to my campus without knowing that we stand for the primacy of Christ, the priority of Scripture, the pursuit of truth, and the practice of wisdom. But yet, in spite of that… Two years ago during a required chapel service just before Thanksgiving, the chapel speaker chose to speak on 1 Corinthians 13. It was not you. It wasn’t me. It was a different speaker. It was one of my vice presidents. I wasn’t in chapel that day. But afterwards, he called me and he said, Dr. Piper, I just want to give you a heads up. We had one of our students approach me after chapel and play the victimization card on me. And I said, what? And he said, yeah. He came up and said he was offended by my sermon and he felt singled out and he felt his peers had been singled out and made to feel uncomfortable. And I said, well, what was your topic? He said, 1 Corinthians 13. I said, what? 1 Corinthians 13. Give me a copy of your text. Because I know the speaker always uses a text. He never ad libs. So I read the text of his sermon verbatim. No political humor, no sarcasm, a simple 15-minute homily on love.
SPEAKER 05 :
But yet I had a student— That’s not one of the more controversial things in Scripture.
SPEAKER 02 :
Probably the least controversial Bible passage that we could find in our modern times. Yeah. Love is patient. Love is kind. Everybody’s had it read at their wedding. But yet I’ve got a kid who says he’s uncomfortable with it and offended by it. I was incredulous, so I used my weekly op-ed in the local newspaper to confront the situation. And I essentially said this. Young man, that feeling of discomfort you had when you heard that sermon, it’s called your conscience. You might want to attend to it. And if you expect us to coddle you rather than confront you, if you expect us to make you feel comfortable rather than confront your character, you’re at the wrong place. We’re not going to issue trigger warnings before altar calls. We expect you to actually grow up here because this is a university. It’s not a daycare. Well, as the result of writing that article, within two weeks it had gone viral. Three and a half million people had read it. Drudge and Dreher and Limbaugh and Beck and O’Reilly and Fox and Friends and newspapers in Canada and Great Britain were covering it.
SPEAKER 05 :
Even the large networks.
SPEAKER 02 :
Absolutely. Covered it. This story was listed in 2015 as one of the top ten news stories of the year with NBC Today.
SPEAKER 05 :
What does that tell you about the culture?
SPEAKER 02 :
Well, it tells you something very clear because what I just said is not all that scholarly. I didn’t—I mean, that commentary that I just offered is not all that deep. It’s not scholarly. It’s not based in the academy. This is just good, sound advice that any good parent or grandparent has been giving to their children for the last several hundred years, and that is this—no pain, no gain— Life comes with some conflict and some dissonance, so we want you to feel that confrontation. We want you to experience it, and we want you to grow up as the result. By saying that life isn’t a daycare, that isn’t all that complicated. That shouldn’t be all that controversial. In fact, I would argue that because so many people were interested in it, it just proves the point. Common sense is needed today, and even the secular world welcomes it. As you know, the Wesleyan tradition of higher education has always considered the mission field to be on campus as well as off campus. So if I get a kid who says, I am not a Christian, I’m not born again, but yet I will respect your four principles, the primacy of Christ, the priority of Scripture, the pursuit of truth, and the practice of wisdom, we will admit that kid.
SPEAKER 05 :
Even if he is not an avowed Christian.
SPEAKER 02 :
Exactly. Two weeks ago, we had 40 kids accept Christ in a Fellowship for Christian Athletes meeting on our campus. Forty kids accepted Christ on our campus. Thirty-five of them got baptized in the campus pond a week later. Exactly. That’s a success to have those kids come to my campus and be exposed to the truth of Christ and the truth of Scripture. Because unfortunately today, Dr. Dobson, as you well know, our culture is not sharing that truth with them. Our country is not fond of that truth any longer. And when it all comes down to it, even some of our churches aren’t preaching that truth any longer. And find me a college that is going to be committed to those basic truths. It’s like finding a needle in a haystack. Those colleges hardly exist any longer.
SPEAKER 05 :
And you preached that in your chapels. Absolutely.
SPEAKER 02 :
Absolutely.
SPEAKER 05 :
I mean, you’re not holding anything back with regard to the gospel.
SPEAKER 02 :
If you come to my campus, you are going to see those four pillars, the primacy of Christ, the priority of Scripture, the pursuit of truth, and the practice of wisdom everywhere. It’s in our architecture, in the pillars of the library, in the columns on the School of Business. It says Christ, Scripture, truth, wisdom. You can’t come on my campus without recognizing the priorities of our mission statement. This institution believes in the primacy of Christ, the priority of Scripture, the pursuit of truth, and the practice of wisdom. It’s who we are.
SPEAKER 05 :
And you have no co-ed housing.
SPEAKER 02 :
No, that’s not going to happen.
SPEAKER 05 :
What do you do with homosexuality?
SPEAKER 02 :
We believe that the Bible is accurate and true in all that it teaches from Genesis to Revelation. And we believe that the biblical ethic for sexual identity and sexual morality is clear and unequivocal. In other words, I believe that women are real. I don’t believe they’re fantasies or fabrications.
SPEAKER 05 :
That’s one of the chapters in your book.
SPEAKER 02 :
Absolutely.
SPEAKER 05 :
Women are real and you believe in women.
SPEAKER 02 :
Exactly. We actually are not science deniers. We teach biology. We teach physiology. We teach genetics. We believe that the female is a biological fact. She’s not a fabrication or a fantasy of a dysphoric male that wants to raise his hand on a given day and say I’m a woman. How can you possibly be pro-woman and deny the reality of the female? You can’t. And this is the upside-down nature of our secular culture today. When I’m actually getting letters from the Department of Education demanding that under the auspices of Title IX that I start providing transgender accommodations on my campus. Well, as you know, Title IX is a 1972 law that requires that we give women equal access to the athletic field and programs and facilities. Well, I wrote a letter back to the DOE and I said, no, we will not provide transgender accommodations on our campus. And here’s why. At Oklahoma Wesleyan University, women are real. We believe in the biological fact of the female. And how in the world would I possibly be able to comply with Title IX, which says I’m supposed to give women equal access to stuff, if I now do what you’re telling me to do and deny that women are real? I could not do that. So, Mr. Government, my answer is no. And do you know what the response was? We got an exemption. They said okay.
SPEAKER 05 :
Did that surprise you?
SPEAKER 02 :
No. And here’s why. If people would step forward into these cultural debates and speak firmly and clearly with confidence and courage, I believe common sense still wins. How can you refute what I said? How can Title IX have any veracity or any meaning whatsoever if we now start pretending that women are nothing but a social construct as opposed to a biological fact? So in other words, Obama and his bureaucrats sidestepped Congress and legislative process and issued these dear colleague letters. Well, that isn’t law. That’s a letter. I don’t have to comply with that. But what they did is they threatened colleges and universities with the loss of their Title IX and Title IV recognition if they didn’t comply. which would mean you’d lose eligibility for student loans. You would lose eligibility for Pell Grants. That’s why all the colleges were scrambling. We said, no, we will not comply. We said this is inconsistent with Title IX, which requires women be honored. OK, rather than disregarded and disrespected and told that they’re nothing but leprechauns and unicorns. They’re make-believe. They don’t exist. We’re not going to do that. So what did we do? We simply said no. And we received an exemption from the federal government, the Department of Education as a result.
SPEAKER 05 :
What about the accreditation committees and those that determine whether or not you’re entitled to that?
SPEAKER 02 :
Well, I’m accredited by the Higher Learning Commission of North Central Association. And in one review that we received recently, one of the first questions I was asked when they came to my campus was with a bit of defiance. So you don’t admit homosexuals. And my response was, wait a second. I think the premise to your question is wrong. If you’re defining a person by virtue of his inclinations, if you’re suggesting that a person’s identity is nothing but the sum total of what they’re inclined to do, we reject that very presupposition here. At Oklahoma Wesleyan University, you’re the Imago Dei. You’re not the Imago Dog. You’re the image of God. You’re not the image of an animal. You can rise above your inclinations. and be something bigger and better than what you’re inclined to do. And in fact, all of us should resist some of the inclinations that we have in life. That’s what makes us morally culpable human beings. We’re not defined by our desires at Oklahoma Wesleyan University. We expect people to behave biblically.
SPEAKER 05 :
If that were not true, then a heterosexual couple would have sex because that’s who they are. That’s who God made them to be, and therefore they’re expressing themselves.
SPEAKER 02 :
Absolutely.
SPEAKER 05 :
I don’t know how you can have one without the other, and I don’t hear pastors talking about that. Those who take a liberal view of homosexuality look at the heterosexual and say nothing. But the truth of the matter is if it applies in one case, it applies to the other.
SPEAKER 02 :
It’s the slippery slope, and you’re spot on that if you believe in sexual licentiousness, if you believe in sexual license rather than sexual morality, if you believe that sex is nothing but recreation— if it’s nothing but consumption, if you will, then your attitude toward all sexual behavior, all sexual decisions is going to follow suit. So whether it’s homosexuality or heterosexuality or whether it’s incest or whether it’s bigamy, whether it’s polygamy or whatever sexual appetite you may have has to be sanctioned if all sex is is a recreational choice. I reject that. That is not biblical. It’s not even logical. Sex is a moral discussion. Otherwise, we wouldn’t be seeing these things in the newspaper that we see all the time in terms of sexual harassment and sexual assault.
SPEAKER 05 :
If a student came to your school, and I’m sure this happens regularly, and says, I have homosexual tendencies, but I’m celibate. I’m trying to serve the Lord, and I— behave with regard to my sexuality the way a heterosexual who is Christian is trying to behave. Would you accept them?
SPEAKER 02 :
Absolutely. But I would suggest this. You know, even Gore Vidal, Gore Vidal, who as you know and the listeners should know, was rabidly pro-homosexual behavior when he debated Bill Buckley and otherwise. Gore Vidal was a very sexually hedonistic man. Gore Vidal said this, there is no more such thing as a homosexual person than there is a heterosexual person. These things are behavioral adjectives. Even Gore Vidal admitted that the discussion of homosexuality is a behavioral adjective. It is not a human identity. And I think that’s really where the church has lost it today. We have failed to remind culture that human beings are made in the image of God. They are the imago Dei, the image of God. They’re not the imago dog. We do not have to subscribe to our every appetite, inclination, and instinct. Human beings can rise above that and behave differently.
SPEAKER 05 :
In fact, we’re called to do that.
SPEAKER 02 :
We’re demanded.
SPEAKER 05 :
In every area of our lives.
SPEAKER 02 :
Not only biblically, but culturally. What society can exist if the human being doesn’t have some sense of moral restraint?
SPEAKER 05 :
Boy, that’s powerfully said. All right, let’s go back to that student who was offended by what he heard in chapel. And your editorial has led to your new book.
SPEAKER 02 :
Yes. Not a Daycare, The Devastating Consequences of Abandoning Truth. And the premise of the book is basically this. Without big laws, you don’t get liberty. You get thousands of little laws that rush in to fill the vacuum. That’s G.K. Chesterton. He told us that when you get rid of the big laws of God, you don’t get liberty. You get thousands of little laws, reams upon reams of government-imposed little laws that rush in to fill the vacuum. So today, as a culture, as a college, as the ivory tower, we can’t live with 10 simple laws any longer. And Jesus narrowed it down to two. We can’t live with 10 or two any longer. So what do we get? Thousands upon thousands upon thousands of man-made little laws that restrict us and actually take away everything. our freedom rather than enhance our freedom. We end up with ideological fascism rather than academic freedom at the end of the day. And the proof is, look at Berkeley. Berkeley fancies itself as the birthplace of the free speech movement. Berkeley isn’t the birthplace of free speech. Bethlehem is. Jesus said, you shall know the truth and the truth shall set you free. With truth, you have freedom. Without truth, you have this fascism that’s prevailing in the nightly news from Berkeley to Brown, where kids are protesting any idea they don’t like, usually a conservative Christian idea. They’re shutting it down and they’re saying the speaker is unwelcome and verboten simply because he challenged them with an idea that might cause them to feel uncomfortable.
SPEAKER 05 :
Make some comments about today’s millennial generation. What is your observation? I know you can’t paint everybody with the same brush.
SPEAKER 02 :
Well, I would argue, Dr. Dobson, that we’ve created a monster. And when I say we, I would argue the parents and the grandparents of today’s millennial generation have created a monster and it’s turning around to bite us. By doing what? By teaching them terrible ideas that life is about them rather than about others. That somehow self-actualization is the goal of the church and the academy rather than confession. In other words, we’ve taught this generation to look into the mirror and to be infatuated with the God they see in the mirror as opposed to honoring the God they see in the Bible. And then what we have is a selfish generation that expects every wish, every feeling, every whim, every opinion to be honored, and we’re surprised by it. In other words, how many times have you heard, and you’ve confronted it in your ministry, what I will call the whateverism of our culture? Where your kids or your grandkids will look at you and say, whatever. It doesn’t matter what you believe as long as it works for you. Whatever. Well, that’s nonsense. What worked for Pol Pot and Hitler and Mao and Mussolini may not be something that’s all that good for the rest of the people that had to suffer and their bad ideas. So this whateverism of our culture that’s led to this millennial generation celebrating their feelings rather than wanting to ground their lives and their education in facts was inevitable. We taught them this. We taught them this. The helicopter generation, the helicopter mom and helicopter dad, taught these kids, again, that the God they see in the mirror is more important than the God they see in the Bible. And therefore, they’re worshiping that God. As Narcissus gazed into the pool, infatuated with his own image, these kids are gazing into the pool of themselves. They’re going to slip and fall in and drown. That is absurd. We know that life doesn’t work that way. We know that opinions are not the end of our existence. I’m fond of saying at Oklahoma Wesleyan University that when you graduate from my college, I’m not going to give you a degree in opinions. I’m not going to give you a diploma that says you majored in opinions. And in fact, when you graduate, I don’t care what your opinion is. And I don’t want you to care that much about mine. I hope you actually learned something. If you’re a nurse, I hope you learned how to administer medication on the basis of what’s true, not your opinion, what’s true. Because if you didn’t, you’re dangerous. Stay away from me.
SPEAKER 05 :
What did you mean by saying you’re not going to coddle them?
SPEAKER 02 :
Well, you have an opinion. It may be wrong. I’m not going to coddle you in your opinion. I’m going to confront you with the truth. Isn’t that what good education is supposed to be about? The pursuit of truth rather than the perpetuation of your feelings and your opinions. If all you get out of education is an opinion, you wasted your money. You were coddled. If you actually understand something that’s true because you were confronted with the facts, then that’s good education.
SPEAKER 05 :
Most universities don’t believe in truth. No. There is no absolute truth. No. The students come out believing that too.
SPEAKER 02 :
And it’s absolutely true there is no truth. I mean, it’s self-refuting. It is. It’s like saying I can’t tolerate. It’s contradictory in itself. How many times I can’t tolerate your intolerance. I hate you hateful people. I’m sure that nothing is sure. I’m absolutely confident there are no absolutes. This stuff is nonsense. It’s self-refuting at every turn. They’re sawing off the branch upon which they sit. It’s our obligation to help them and make sure that that lie is confronted.
SPEAKER 05 :
Well, I tell you, I’m convinced that some radio programs go by faster than others. This one has been on a breakneck pace because I’ve appreciated so much what you’ve had to say. Our guest has been Dr. Everett Piper, the president of Oklahoma Wesleyan University. And the title of his book is Not a Daycare, The Devastating Consequences of Abandoning Truth. And man, I began reading this yesterday and you couldn’t put it down, but I did because I ran out of time. But this is a book that listeners and especially our parents and grandparents should read because there are implications here for how you raise kids and young adults and how you relate to them. There’s more here, however, that we need to talk about. And if you’ll be with us tomorrow, we will continue it.
SPEAKER 02 :
Absolutely. I’m honored to be part of your program.
SPEAKER 05 :
Let’s pick up right here next time.
SPEAKER 02 :
Thank you.
SPEAKER 03 :
When universities trade truth for personal feelings, they don’t create more freedom. They actually wind up with what Dr. Piper calls thousands of little laws that actually restrict authentic learning and growth. You’ve been listening to a special edition of Family Talk and an eye-opening conversation about truth and education featuring our own Dr. James Dobson and his guest, Dr. Everett Piper. Their discussion reminds us that standing firm for biblical truth, even when it’s unpopular, is essential for preserving both faith and freedom in our culture. Now, if you missed any portion of today’s broadcast, or if you’d like to share these important insights with a friend, go to drjamesdobson.org forward slash family talk. You’ll find the audio for today’s program, along with information about Dr. Piper’s landmark book called Not a Daycare, The Devastating Consequences of Abandoning Truth. Again, you’ll find all that information and more at drjamesdobson.org forward slash family talk. Amen. Amen. Amen. Your gift of any amount truly makes a difference in this crucial mission. To make a secure donation online, visit drjamesdobson.org or give us a call at 877-732-6825. That’s 877-732-6825. Well, I’m Roger Marsh, and there’s much more to explore in this timely conversation about truth and education. So be sure to join us again next time as Dr. Dobson continues his conversation with Dr. Everett Piper, who will share how parents can help their children stand firm in their faith when they head off to college. That’s coming up right here on the next edition of Dr. James Dobson’s Family Talk, the voice you trust for the family you love.
SPEAKER 01 :
This has been a presentation of the Dr. James Dobson Family Institute.
SPEAKER 04 :
If you were in the military, you probably remember a drill they put new recruits through in basic training. Here’s today’s Dr. Dobson Minute with Dr. James Dobson. You had to put a protective mask on and go inside a building filled with tear gas and stay there until you were told to leave. The sergeant showing us how to put on the masks didn’t have to be a great teacher. If we failed to follow instructions, we were in for a terrible experience in the gas-filled building. In other words, we were motivated to learn. My friend Dr. Cliff Schimels defines motivation as the ability of the learner to see the applied value of the lesson to be learned. We need to establish a clear relationship between what our children are asked to do and where they’ll be able to go when that knowledge has been acquired. Advertisers say sell the sizzle, not the steak. If we can sell our children on the advantages of learning… They’ll want to cultivate their minds. For more information, visit drdobsonminute.org.
