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Listeners will explore contemporary questions about tithing and engaging with church communities, followed by a fascinating discussion on Jesus’ humanity and the integral practice of baptism. The episode concludes with interpretations of salvation, not just as an afterlife promise but as a present spiritual journey, and reflections on the man of sin and the enigmatic identity of Mystery Babylon. This episode is a treasure trove for those eager to deepen their understanding of scripture.
SPEAKER 1 :
Thank you.
SPEAKER 02 :
Good afternoon and welcome to the Narrow Path radio broadcast. My name is Steve Gregg and we’re live for an hour each weekday like today. Commercial free for an hour, taking your calls. If you have questions about the Bible or the Christian faith, I’d be glad to talk to you. If you see things differently than the host, I’d be glad to talk to you about that too, but you’d have to call. And that’s what I’m inviting you to do right now because we have some lines open as I speak. These usually fill up pretty quickly. If you want to get into the program today, the number is 844-484-5737. That’s 844-484-5737. And let’s see, if you’ve been listening regularly, you know that I’ll be speaking regularly. beginning this Friday in Texas. And I’m going to be speaking in the Dallas area in a number of places and in the Houston area, more than one place. And what I could call the San Antonio area, though not very close, probably within about an hour or less of San Antonio, in Bernie and Bulverde, Texas. All those are coming up. I’ll be They’re both this weekend and the following weekend, and I’ve got things in between. If you live in Texas and are interested in joining us for any of these gatherings, feel free to look at our website, thenarrowpath.com, and there’s a tab there that says Announcements, and that’s where you’ll find all these gatherings. And I look forward to seeing many of you there. Maybe even Carrie from Dallas, Texas, who’s our first caller today. Hi, Carrie. Welcome.
SPEAKER 08 :
Well, I’m sorry to say that your visit will be in the middle of Easter week, and I won’t be able to come.
SPEAKER 02 :
That’s true. It is Easter time, yeah.
SPEAKER 08 :
Yeah. But, Steve, my question today is in John 14, 26. And I was wondering, can that promise be applied to us, or is that just the disciples’ promise?
SPEAKER 02 :
John 14, 26, which says, let me turn there. It says, but the helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, he will teach you all things and bring to your remembrance all things that I said to you. That’s a good question because obviously this is in the upper room discourse. And Jesus is alone with his apostles after Judas has left the room. and he’s speaking to them about things that they can expect to happen soon, his death. He doesn’t speak so plainly about it. He says he’s going away from them, and they’ll see him again, but he’s preparing them for his absence, and he’s telling them things like, you know, you need to love one another. You need to keep my commandments. You need to remain in me. I will, you know, send my spirit to you, and later on, After this statement in chapter 16, which is still in the same discourse, he says in verse 12 and 13 or thereabouts, he says, I have many things to say to you, but you can’t bear them yet. But when the Holy Spirit comes, he will guide you into all truth. And here in chapter 14, he’s made a similar statement when he comes. He will bring things to your remembrance, he says. He’ll guide you into all truth. These are statements that are made to the apostles. And we can say that, and some people can say, that this was only to the apostles. Though that’s not necessarily true, because much of what he said to the apostles in the upper room was, well, perhaps was to them as apostles strictly, but also applies to them as believers generally. The idea that he wants his people to be one, and that he wants us to continue to abide in him, to, we’re going to receive the Holy Spirit. This is something that all people have received. So the question of whether this promise is to all Christians or only to them has been debated. I believe it’s to all Christians. I do have a listener, or I once did, who called from time to time to disagree with me about this. But the reason I agree with the position I take is because the same author, John, wrote 1 John 2. And what he said was, in verse 27 of 1 John 2, 27, The anointing, which of course is the Holy Spirit, which you have received from him, abides in you. And you do not need that anyone teach you, but as the same anointing teaches you concerning all things, and is true and is not a lie, and just as it has taught you, you will abide in him. So he’s saying the Holy Spirit will teach you all things, which is exactly what Jesus said to the disciples in the upper room in verse 26, which you mentioned in John 14. He says he will teach you all things, the very same thing that Jesus said that John is saying to us. So I’d say that this is, although some things that Jesus says privately to the apostles probably applies only to them as apostles, but, um, that particular promise, first of all, we know that this is a function of the Holy Spirit to guide us into all truth and to teach us all things. Um, But we all receive the Holy Spirit, not just the apostles. And then, of course, 1 John is written to all Christians, not just to the apostles. In fact, it’s not written to the apostles at all. And it says that we have received the anointing of the Holy Spirit who will teach us all things. So I have to say I’m going to take John 14, 26 and 27 as being about all of us, really. I appreciate your call. Jordan in San Luis Obispo, California. Welcome.
SPEAKER 04 :
Hey, Steve, thanks so much for taking my call. My question comes from Psalm 82, where it says, God stands in the congregation of the mighty, and he judges among the gods. And I guess I’m curious on what your view is about these gods and who they are. I know in John 10, Jesus describes them as those whom the word of God came, which makes some people think they’re like, as my understanding is, Israel at the time of the giving of the law. I know others think it might be unjust judges. And in verse 7, it seems to imply that they are some sort of spiritual beings because he tells them that they will die like men, which seems to imply they’re not men. I guess I was wondering what your interpretation was.
SPEAKER 02 :
Well, I take the view that they are men. And when he says, I said you are gods, that you will die like men and fall like one of the princes. True, if he was talking to somebody who is not a man and who is going to die like a man does, he might say this very thing, you’ll die like men, although you’re not a man. On the other hand, if he’s talking to men and he says, I may have said to you that your sons are the most high. but you’re going to die like men, you know, because you are men. I mean, some translations add, because the translator prefers this understanding, you’ll die like any men, you know, you’ll die like anyone else. And so it’s not necessarily, in my opinion, not necessarily trying to say that they are not men themselves. Now, here what we have is a reference to somebody as gods. Now, Jesus, as you’ve pointed out in John 10, quoted it and said, if they were called gods, to whom the word of God came. Now, of course, the word of God could simply mean Psalm 82, which is no doubt what he does refer to, because he’s quoting Psalm 82, that speaks to someone and calls them gods. So if he says, if they are called gods, to whom the word of God came, meaning this statement in Psalm came to them. Well, that could be superhuman beings or human beings. But the psalm itself strikes me as being the kind of thing that God says to corrupt judges elsewhere in Scripture. And he does tell them in this psalm that they shouldn’t show partiality to the wicked or judge unjustly. He tells them in verse 3 to defend the poor and the fatherless, to do justice to the afflicted and needy. Now, this sounds like it’s talking to the magistrates, the judges of Israel. the rulers because this is the very kind of thing that many many prophets tell the rulers of israel to do to make sure they don’t neglect the poor they don’t neglect the widows and orphans and yet these are the very people that he’s telling these persons whoever it is he’s writing to to not neglect so it sounds like he’s they are judges in israel and uh i’d also just say that um they are evil, and he’s rebuking them. Now, if they are angels, or as Michael Heiser says, if they are divine beings, part of a divine council, which would be like angels, they’re bad ones. They’re ones that are being rebuked for their sinfulness and threatened with mortality. I don’t know if angels have mortality or not, but the point is, If these are evil angels, then we would generally understand them to be like demons. And yet he’s telling them to behave. He’s telling them to repent. He’s telling them to start doing the right thing and start judging rightly, which would suggest that if these are like angelic beings, and they’re bad ones that have to be rebuked because they must not be holy ones, and yet he’s urging them to turn around and do the right thing. I can see him telling judges or other human beings to do that. And that’s what I think he’s referring to. Now, why would he call them Elohim or gods? Well, that’s a good question. But there are three places in the book of Exodus, at least, that it seems to me he is referring to the judges and he calls them Elohim. For example, in chapter 23, let me find the verses there in Exodus. Let’s see here. Now, I’m sorry, 21. There’s 22 and there’s a couple of them, 22. Okay, the first one is in Exodus 21, 6. And it says, if a master wants to release his servant after seven years, but the servant would prefer to stay a slave, it says in verse 6, then his master shall bring him before the Elohim. And he shall also bring him to the door of the doorpost, and his master shall pierce his ear. Now, most translations translate Elohim here as the judges. This is a ritual. This is a public ritual where a slave who’s being offered his freedom after seven years wants to stay a slave, so he’s going to have his ear publicly pierced. And so you take him before the Elohim, which is literally translated mighty ones or gods. And yet it’s Elohim here, just as it is in Psalm 82, verse 1 and verse 6. So this transaction takes place before the, well, most would say the judges. And also a chapter later. In Exodus 22, 8, it says, if the thief is found, then the master of the house shall be brought to the Elohim to see whether he has put his hand to his neighbor’s goods. So he’d be brought before the judges, most likely. Where do you take him before the angels? You know, how do you? How do you judge a man, whether he’s lying or not about his theft, before superhuman beings? King James, the new King James, uses the word judges. And that reflects the opinion of many scholars. I would think the best opinion. And then you have in Exodus 22, 28, you should not revile Elohim nor curse a ruler of your people. Now, with the parallelism that the Hebrew uses so frequently, The Elohim seems to be parallel with the ruler of your people. You shall not revile Elohim nor curse a ruler of your people. And so that sounds like it’s talking about a ruler, too, or a judge. Now, in chapter 7 of Exodus, there was also something that was said to Moses. Exodus 7, verse 1, it says, The Lord said to Moses, See, I have made you as Elohim to Pharaoh. And Aaron, your brother, shall be your prophet. So Moses, as a leader of the people, is made like an Elohim, you know, a god or a judge or a ruler to Pharaoh. Now, so we have numerous places where human beings, probably the judges or the magistrates of Israel, are referred to as Elohim, mighty ones. Elohim can mean gods. It can mean mighty ones. They were mighty ones. And so to treat them, if they were Israel’s judges, they were supposed to be respected as divine agents. And so certain cases were brought before them to be settled. And in chapter 82 of the Psalms, it says God stands among these Elohim, and he rebukes them, and he tells them to stop judging wrongly. So it sounds to me like he’s talking to human judges. If he’s talking to angels, I mean, I know that Michael Heiser believes that kind of thing, and so do lots of people who follow him. I’ve met other people who believe that, but I just don’t have any. I don’t find anything convincing about that. I think that it is probably talking to human people.
SPEAKER 04 :
That makes sense. Thank you. Can you explain one more time about the verse 7 and them dying like men and how that makes sense if they’re judges?
SPEAKER 02 :
Sure, sure. I mean, they are men, and I called you gods. I’ve called you sons of the Most High. Yeah, but you’re not really gods in the literal sense. You’re humans, and you’ll die like any human would, is what he’s saying, or perish like one of the princes. Yeah, so I mean, like I said, you’ll find some translations, I have found them, that insert the word like any other men. But, you know, that’s not in the Hebrew, but it can certainly be implied. I’ve never had a problem reading it that way. All my life when I’ve read that, I’ve always understood it to be judges, and I’ve never had any problem thinking, whoa, why does it say you’ll die like men? Well, because that’s what you are. You’re men. I called you gods, but you’re really men, and you’ll die like men, like all men. That makes sense. All right. Thank you, Steve. Okay, Jordan. Good talking to you. Thanks for your call. You as well. Bye now. Anita from Omaha, Nebraska. Welcome to The Narrow Path. Thanks for calling.
SPEAKER 06 :
Yeah, can you hear me?
SPEAKER 02 :
Yes, ma’am.
SPEAKER 06 :
Okay. Are you guys just asking questions about Easter or just anything in the Bible?
SPEAKER 02 :
Well, no one’s asking about Easter yet, but anything in the Bible is fine. Yeah.
SPEAKER 06 :
Okay, the question I had is about tithes. I struggle with that. I do good for a while, and then I don’t, especially when I get a large amount of money. I’m like, I don’t pay 10%. So I want to know, I don’t belong to a church anymore in my local town. Can I belong to a church online? Can that be my pastor? And if so, do I have to pay tithes to the church and not to people that’s in need?
SPEAKER 02 :
Well, I can’t even be part of a church online. Well, if you’re a follower of Christ, you’re part of the only church there is in the world. That’s the body of Christ. Right. what we call churches and towns are just different assemblies. And the Bible doesn’t tell us that you have to always go to one assembly, all the same one. But it makes sense to do so. I mean, because then you develop the relationships that you need to have with other Christians. You know, if you can find a church where you get fed and where you can fellowship and develop a community with other Christians, then that’s a good thing. And Most people find that necessary, and most people find that that’s the best way to develop connection with other Christians. I will say there’s many assemblies in towns that I visit that I wouldn’t really be drawn back to because they don’t seem to be reverent. They don’t seem to teach the Word of God. They seem to be more into entertainment, which I’m not the least bit interested in going to church for entertainment. So, I mean, you go to churches and sometimes find some that don’t really, they don’t really have much, they don’t offer much spiritual. They offer something, you know, connections with other people maybe. And, you know, if you connect with other people at church, even if it’s not good in other ways, it can be good for you to have those relationships. But you can’t really develop real relationships online. Watching a preacher online, listening to a preacher on the radio, that doesn’t really connect you with the other people that are listening to him. That’s the thing. Church is not primarily about listening to a sermon. You could read a sermon or listen to a recorded sermon or watch one online, like you said. But hearing a sermon isn’t what church is about. I mean, that’s part of it. But church is about fellowship with other people, and when you’re fellowshipping online, you’re not really meeting these other people, and they don’t know you, and you can’t bear one another’s burdens and so fulfill the law of Christ as you can when you’re actually involved in other people’s lives, which you should be. Now, so I would suggest you actually do go to a church somewhere and make connections with people or some kind of fellowship. It doesn’t have to be a traditional church in a building. There are fellowships that meet in homes midweek and things like that. But, I mean, you should be connecting with other people face-to-face. Now, as far as tithing goes, tithing is never given. There’s no command in the New Testament about tithing. The Jews were required to tithe. Jesus mentioned that. Jesus mentioned that the Pharisees, who were Jewish under a different religion than his, they did tithe. And he said you should have because they were Jewish, they were required to. He said, you should have done that and not leave other things undone. But Jesus never told his disciples that they’re supposed to tithe because that’s not really part of the new covenant. Tithing means giving 10%. The word tithe means tenth. So giving 10% was something the Jews were told to bring of their crops to the temple once a year to feed the Levites and the priests for the following year. They’d have big storehouses there for the grain, and every year they’d get a tenth of the people’s produce, and they’d eat it for the rest of the year so they wouldn’t starve. Now, that’s what tithing was for, to support the staff at the tabernacle and later at the temple. We don’t have that tabernacle, we don’t have the temple, and we don’t have that command, nor do we have approximately 10% of the people working full-time in the religious world. So there’s no real… obvious reason to have to pay a tithe to any particular group today. Now, moving away from the idea of tithing, which means giving a tenth, I believe Christians should be generous. You mentioned you have a particularly hard time tithing when you have a really big windfall because the tithe would be such a large amount of money. Well, I would think that would be the time when it would be easiest to tithe because you’ve got so much extra. But then maybe not everyone thinks like I do. I think that if a person has the love of Christ in their heart for others, then their heart is moved for people in need, and they want to help other people as much as they can. I actually would never allow myself to give as little as 10%, even when I was poor, because in America, living on 90% is possible. Now, some people say that they don’t think it is, All my life I’ve heard people who did break down and tithe when they thought they couldn’t afford to and they found that God provided and they were able to live on the other 90%. But I never thought that tithing was a good standard for Christians in America. Now, if you lived in a third world country and you hardly had enough to put food on your table, I could see maybe not doing that. Although the woman of Zarephath, the widow of Zarephath, when Elijah came to her, she had her last food. And she gave him part of it, much more than 10% of what she had. And God provided for her for three and a half years while the rest of the nation was starving in famine. So, you know, we should be generous. That’s the thing. If we have it to give, we should give. And I personally believe that giving more than 10% makes a lot of sense for most people. If we teach that people should give 10%, it gives them the impression that 90% then is theirs. Whereas the Bible teaches that 100% belongs to God, and 100% should be used in a way that is intended to pursue God’s interests. Now, God is interested in you eating and being housed and having clothes and doing the same for your children and so forth. God may have the need for you to own some other things, too, that are related to your calling. Maybe you need a car to work at your job. Maybe you need some equipment of some kind to do other things. But the point is, those are part of what God wants you to do and what he supplies money for. But he also wants you to promote the kingdom of God. He wants you to support missionaries and ministers and so forth, and he wants you to especially help the poor. So I wouldn’t say that you have to pay tithes to anyone in particular. You mentioned giving to an online church as opposed to helping needy people. No, I don’t. I would probably suggest giving to the needy people if they’re nearby. I mean, if there’s an online church and you give to the needy you know and you can still help out the online church, then there’s nothing wrong with that if they’re good. But on the other hand, you don’t have to measure it out a tenth here and a tenth there. That’s not the way the New Testament is. The New Testament’s about generosity, and it’s about stewardship and responsibility, taking good management care of God’s stuff, which is everything we have. And we’ll answer to him for how we did that. So, no, I’m not going to say you have to pay tithes to anybody. But I do think that if you find yourself not wanting to help people with what you have, especially when you have windfall, then you might ask yourself, you know, why don’t I love more? Why don’t I want to help people more? Because that would be perhaps a test of your own spiritual ability.
SPEAKER 06 :
Not as necessarily like helping people because I do help a lot. I take care of the needy. I was saying, I’d rather give it to the needy than the church. That’s what I’m saying.
SPEAKER 02 :
Yeah, sometimes that’s a good idea. When Jesus told the rich young ruler to sell all that he had, he said, give it to the poor. He didn’t say give it to the temple. He didn’t say give it to the church. He didn’t say give it to Jesus and the disciples.
SPEAKER 06 :
Okay.
SPEAKER 02 :
Give it to the poor. Yeah.
SPEAKER 06 :
Awesome. That’s what I wanted to know. Thank you so much.
SPEAKER 02 :
God bless you. Good talking to you. Okay, let’s see. Our next caller is, well, we’re going to have to wait probably until after the break here, because if we start talking to JC in Chandler, Arizona, we’ll have to cut off in about 30 seconds for the break. We have one break during the whole hour, and it’s at the bottom of the hour, during which we remind our listeners that The Narrow Path is listener-supported. One reason I have to mention this is because there are a lot of people who listen to the radio, and they hear somebody speaking on the radio, and they assume that person is like you know, a paid employee of the radio station. Now, there are people, there are radio programs where, you know, the host is an employee of the station. But for the most part, Christian broadcasting usually is churches or ministries or individuals buying time on radio stations just like an advertiser would buy time. And it’s pretty expensive to buy a whole hour at a time. I mean, and we’re on 80-something radio stations. So we need to let you know that we are not paid to be on any of these stations. We are paying a lot of money to be on them. And we’ve been doing it for 28 years, and the Lord has provided through people like yourselves. If you’d like to help us stay on the air, you can write to The Narrow Path, P.O. Box 1730, Temecula, California, 92593. That’s The Narrow Path, P.O. Box 1730, Temecula, California, 92593. Or you can do so from the website, thenarrowpath.com. There’s a tab there that says donate or donations or something like that at thenarrowpath.com. Now, also at thenarrowpath.com, you will find a tab that says announcements. And that tells the various places I’m speaking about. which includes a lot of places in Texas starting this coming Friday and going on for about 10 days. I’ll be speaking different places in Texas. And these meetings, many of them still have plenty of room. Some of them need reservations. Some do not. The announcement will tell if they do or not. But you can go to our website, thenarrowpath.com. and look under announcements and see where those are. I’m going to take a 30-second break, and we will be back for another half hour. Stay tuned.
SPEAKER 01 :
The book of Hebrews tells us do not forget to do good and to share with others. So let’s all do good and share The Narrow Path with Steve Gregg with family and friends. When the show is over today, tell one and all to go to thenarrowpath.com where they can study, learn, and enjoy with free topical audio teachings, blog articles, verse-by-verse teachings, and archives of all The Narrow Path radio shows. And be sure to tell them to tune into the show right here on the radio. Share listeners supported The Narrow Path with Steve Gregg. Share and do good.
SPEAKER 02 :
Welcome back to the Narrow Path radio broadcast. My name is Steve Gregg, and we’re live for another half hour taking your calls. If you have questions about the Bible or the Christian faith, feel free to give me a call. The number is 844-484-5737. That’s 844-484-5737 if you’d like to be on the program today. Now, I mentioned I’m going to be in Texas coming up here starting this week. And for those of you who normally attend our Southern California meetings in Temecula and Buena Park, which usually… are held on the third Saturday of each month. Well, those meetings are being preempted by my absence, I’m sorry to say, so we won’t be having them again this Saturday. I’ve been traveling a lot, a lot more than usual, but I think we’ll start them up again next month. So if you usually come to those monthly gatherings on the third Saturday of the month in Southern California, in Temecula and Boynton Park, yeah, those are going to be preempted again this month. Because of my being away. All right, we’re going to go to the phones now. Did I get the phone number again? Yeah, 844-484-5737. Our next caller is JC from Chandler, Arizona. JC, welcome to The Narrow Path. Thanks for calling.
SPEAKER 10 :
Good afternoon, Steve. Thank you. I had a ball when your appearance in Peoria. That was such a treat seeing you.
SPEAKER 02 :
Thank you.
SPEAKER 10 :
I get a lot of comfort knowing that Jesus was fully God and fully human, and then he experienced pain and grief. For example, I think it’s John 11, maybe about 35, where he said Jesus wept. Is there a couple other passages in the Bible that also speak of his humanity that either you favor it or that you could give me? And then I’ve got a second question. I don’t know if you have time to get to it, Yuke. Somebody asks it every couple weeks, but do you need to be baptized?
SPEAKER 02 :
Okay. Well, as far as verses that show Jesus having emotion or human weakness or other things that he shares with us as a man, in addition to his weeping, there are numerous places. You can find these in any concordance where it talks about how he groaned in his spirit. because he is deeply moved. You read of him groaning in his spirit a few times. You see him looking on the people being moved with compassion. Moved with compassion sounds like sharing a human emotion. There are, of course, other human things about him, like he got weary and tired and fell asleep, and even in a storm he was that tired. There’s times when he’s hungry and thirsty. Even on the cross, he said, I thirst. These are things that are human experiences due to his taking on human form. I think throughout the Gospels, we have numerous indicators of his human weakness that he took on himself when he became a man, having been God in heaven forever. Becoming a man, he emptied himself, it says in Philippians chapter 2. and took on the form of a servant. And in doing so, he took on human frailties, capable of temptation. The Bible says he was tempted in all points like we are. But, of course, God can’t be tempted with evil, but Jesus was because he became man. And so there’s those kinds of things. And, again, his mortality. He died. God can’t die. So these are human weaknesses that he deliberately took on himself so that he could be among us and one of us. Now, as far as the question of whether… you need to be baptized i’d say yeah yeah you do i mean it’s commanded uh anyone who’s uh going to be a follower of christ by definition has decided they’re going to they’re going to obey him because there’s no reason to follow him unless he’s the king and the lord because if he’s not king and lord then he’s a liar those are the things that he said about himself those are the things that The disciples said, remember those things that God spoke from heaven. This is my son, you know, in whom I’m well pleased. And hear him. So, yeah, I mean, clearly, to be a follower of Christ is to do so because of who he is. Because if he isn’t king and lord, then he’s nobody but a fraud. So, if you’re a believer, then you’re a believer in a king and a lord. Jesus said, why do you call me lord, lord, and you don’t do the things that I say? Obviously, The test of whether we really are believers, and this is the test that Jesus said will be given on the last day in Matthew chapter 7, when he said, many will say to me, Lord, Lord, you know, but they won’t enter the kingdom of heaven. He said, only those who do the will of the Father in heaven, that is, those who are living an obedient life to God, will enter the kingdom of heaven. That’s it. Matthew 7, 21. And the Father commands us to be baptized. Jesus commands us to be baptized. So, you know, it’s clear that we can’t very well be obedient to God and be saying no when he tells us to be baptized. We don’t say no to God if we’re followers of Christ. People who do say no to God are, at that moment at least, not followers of Christ because obeying Christ is what is what following him is. So, yeah, I’d say, yeah, clearly the Bible makes it very clear that baptism is a requirement. All right. Thank you for your call. Shea in Chicago, Illinois. Welcome to The Narrow Path. Thanks for calling.
SPEAKER 05 :
Hey, Steve. Love hearing your talks, and they find them to be very edifying. Thank you. You’re welcome. I was having a lot of trouble trying to figure out how to articulate my question, so I was wondering if you mind just a comment and see if maybe you can just respond to the comment. So I guess the things that I’ve been thinking about is the word salvation and how I think that it seems as if a lot of times Christians give a lot of liberty of what that word means. and it seems like we tend to use that word a little sloppily. Again, I don’t really know what my question is, but I see if you have anything to respond to that.
SPEAKER 02 :
Well, when you say they use it, did you say sloppily? I mean, what is it you’re perceiving that you’re referring to? I mean, in what way are they using it that concerns you? Good question.
SPEAKER 05 :
It doesn’t necessarily concern me. I guess it’s when I became saved about five years ago, And in the books that I identify with, it seems as if the word salvation oftentimes or more oftentimes refers to a earthly experience, like a spiritual experience while here on earth. And oftentimes Christians seem to like always equate it to the afterlife or like what happens when you die. Right. Yeah.
SPEAKER 02 :
Gotcha. Gotcha. Yeah, I can certainly address that. I’ve observed it as well. People often don’t know what they mean by salvation, but I think a lot of times what they seem to mean is when I die, I get to go to heaven. And if I’m not saved, when I die, I’m going to go to hell. Now, I believe both of those things are true. I believe that unsaved people do go to hell. And I believe that saved people go to heaven. But that certainly isn’t an emphasis in the New Testament. It’s not even mentioned in the Old Testament. And that’s about three quarters of the Bible or more. And the New Testament, Jesus mentioned hell a few times. Paul never mentioned it in his writings. Peter and Paul never mentioned it in their sermons in the book of Acts. This is simply not a major theme of the preaching of the Bible, though it’s an important concern, obviously. If you’re not prepared to die and meet God and meet him in heaven, and you’re going to go to hell, well, that’s obviously a very serious matter. It’s just interesting that when salvation is discussed in the Bible itself, it doesn’t talk about heaven and hell very much at all. It hardly ever mentions it. If you read a book like 1 John, you find that he uses all kinds of synonyms for being saved. Like, just looking at some of this as I glance through the book, he talks about it as being in fellowship with God. That’s now, of course. Forgiven and cleansed. He speaks about being forgiven and cleansed in chapters 1 and 2. He talks about it as knowing God in chapter 2, verse 5. He says, he that says, I know him. It should be verse 4. He that says, I know him and does not keep his commandments is a liar and does not the truth. So keeping the commandments of God, knowing God, overcoming Satan in the world. He says that whosoever is born of God overcomes the world. Born of God is then another expression for being saved. Abiding in Him is frequently mentioned. Having eternal life is mentioned frequently. Being taught by God’s Spirit is mentioned as part of the life of the saved person. Being of God and being of the truth are expressions. So, salvation has a lot to do with now. And then it spills over into the next life. After all, everyone’s going to die, except for those who are raptured, whenever that may happen. But… You know, if you’re saved now, you’ll be saved, you know, when you die too, assuming you persevere to the end. So salvation is not just what happens when you die, and it doesn’t only relate to the benefits that happen after you die. We’re knowing God now. We’re his children. His spirit is given to us to lead us into all truth. We have a relationship with him and fellowship with him. These are tremendous benefits. You see, salvation, I think in many evangelistic messages, is represented simply as being saved from hell or being saved from the condemnation of sin. Well, yeah, we are. We are saved from that. But, again, that’s not very often mentioned in the Bible. A few times, sometimes. But it’s frequently mentioned that we’re saved to be part of the kingdom of God. And the kingdom of God isn’t heaven. The kingdom of God is the society that is alive on earth and in heaven that submits to Christ. Those who have died in the kingdom are still in the kingdom in heaven, but we’re here now. And Jesus told the Pharisees, the kingdom of God has overtaken you. He said, the kingdom of God is in your midst. Paul says that he’s translated us into the kingdom. God has translated us living Christians into the kingdom of his son. We’re in the kingdom. So, Being in the kingdom of God, there’s tremendous benefits, and they aren’t all in the next world. In Romans 14, 17, Paul said the kingdom of God is righteousness and peace and joy in the Holy Spirit. Those are good things, and they’re right now. Those are the fruit of the Spirit. Salvation really amounts to bringing prodigal sons back to the proper relationship with their father. And God is the father. Now, to be in a proper relationship with God and a proper relationship with Jesus means that you relate as a good son relates to a father. And as a subject relates to a king. And as a servant relates to a master. I mean, these are the relationships that are common. spoken of as the normative relationship between God and people. So being saved isn’t just being saved from penalties. It’s saved from one kind of life, which is alienated from God, to another kind of life that is in the proper relationship with God, submitted to him, enjoying his fellowship, his favor, his assistance, you know, being able to talk with him as a child to a father. There’s a lot there. Salvation is all that. I mean, I think when people use the word salvation, too often they just mean justification. Because the Protestant Reformation brought an emphasis on being justified by faith alone and not by works. And so people who follow the Protestant Reformation often think, well, works, that’s not good. Works are not part of salvation. We’re justified by faith alone. Yeah, well, we are. But justification isn’t all there is of salvation. Justification is just getting in the door. You see, if we understand what Jesus taught properly, he said that he came to restore and establish the kingdom of God, which requires that people who are in rebellion against the king repent and turn around and become loyal to the king. Now, justification in this scenario is analogous to simply somebody who’s deserted the king, maybe during battle or something, coming back and seeking amnesty. That is to say, could you absolve me of my crime of being your enemy? So that I can be your friend again, be in proper relationship with you again, be in submission to you again. So justification is really amnesty as you’re coming back into relation with the king. But once you’ve obtained that amnesty, you’re now loyal to God. You’re going to follow him. He’s your king. He’s your Lord. And you’re going to obey him. That’s what it means. That’s being properly related to your king. And if you’re not properly related, you don’t have a relationship with him. That is the saving one. So salvation has a lot more to do with what you have become and what you’re doing with your life after you’ve come back to Christ. And, of course, it continues after you die, too. So I think your intuitions are correct about that. I think when people talk mostly about salvation as affecting the afterlife, I think they’re missing like 90% of what the Bible says on the subject.
SPEAKER 05 :
Thank you.
SPEAKER 02 :
Okay, Shane, God bless you. Thanks for your call. All right, Dwayne from Falls Church, Virginia. Welcome to The Narrow Path. Thanks for calling.
SPEAKER 08 :
Hey, Steve, God bless you.
SPEAKER 02 :
Thank you.
SPEAKER 09 :
I just have a couple questions that I’ll take off the air. I believe they’re kind of related, and hopefully I can transmit them, the questions, right? Yes. One is coming from 2 Thessalonians 2, where it talks about the man of sin. Mm-hmm. Agreeing with your teaching on that whole topic, having heard you before and who the man of sin is, and, of course, the temple of God being the church. Yeah. My first question, is it possible that in understanding how the church works, view that, when I say that maybe during the Reformation or what have you, that that man has said possibly being related to the succession of popes. But is it possible also that it’s not limited to the popes, that it could be extended into all those who have that similar type of structure or setup? That’s my first question. And the second one is kind of related. It’s Revelation 17 with the mystery of Babylon the Great. And also, knowing your understanding of that as well, being more like a Jerusalem, is it possible also for the mystery Babylon to have some elements of a physical Jerusalem and maybe even a physical Rome, but in fact be spiritual? When it says, come out of all my people in 18.4, could that be come out of something spiritual? Anyway, I’ll take your answers off the air, brother.
SPEAKER 02 :
All right, brother. I’ll talk about that. Thank you. Well, with reference to the man of sin, of course, the most popular and well-known teaching is that this is a future Antichrist who has not arisen yet. And Paul says of him that something is hindering him from rising. But Paul said, when that which is hindering will be taken out of the way, then the man of sin will rise. And it also says in 2 Thessalonians 2, verse 4, that the man of sin will oppose and exalt himself above all that is called God or that is worshipped, so that he sits as God in the temple of God, showing himself that he’s God. Now, the popular view is that this is a man who will rise up and sit in the temple of God, meaning the temple in Jerusalem. By the way, there isn’t one there now, so they’d have to rebuild a future temple, and he would defile it by requiring people to worship him there. Or setting an image of himself there is a more popular view, although Paul doesn’t mention anything about such an image. So this is the way it’s popularly taught. Some future Antichrist, after the Jews’ future rebuild the temple, he’ll defile it. He’ll sit in the temple or put an image of himself in the temple and defile it that way. Well, there’s nothing in the Bible that specifically says there’s going to be a third temple. In the New Testament, this would be the only verse that would. Some people would take Revelation 11, 1 and 2 as being a future temple, but in my opinion, that’s talking about the temple that was destroyed in A.D. 70, which has been gone for a long time now. But what about this temple of God, the man who sits in the temple of God? Well, as you mentioned, Paul uses the term temple of God two other times. Only two other times. In both places, he says the church is the temple of God. He uses that expression. Don’t you not know that you are the temple of God, he says. He says it in 1 Corinthians 3.16. He says it in 2 Corinthians 6.16. And then he mentions it here. Now, if Paul uses the same expression three times, and twice he tells us what he means, namely that it’s the church, and the third time he doesn’t mention what it is, We can probably assume that he means it the same way all three times. So this would be not somebody in a Jewish temple in the future. This is somebody in the church, you know, claiming too much for himself. Now, there’s another thing, and that’s the timing. Paul said that something was hindering him, which had to be taken out of the way. And when it was taken out of the way, then the man of sin would rise. So what was hindering? Well, the early church fathers had an opinion about it, all of them. They all believed that what was hindering the rise of the man of sin was the Roman Empire, and that Paul was predicting the fall of the Roman Empire, and that Paul was saying when the Roman Empire falls, then the man of sin will rise up to take power in the church. Now, historically, in the 5th century, something like that did happen. The Roman Empire did fall, and then a power rose in the church that did all those things the man of sin, he said, would do, and that was the papacy, the popes. Now, you’re saying could it be not only the popes, could the man of sin be just other people who are like the popes? Sure, absolutely. I mean, I think that speaking of corruption in general in the church and corruption in church leadership, and that certainly did happen through the popes, but it has happened in Protestant churches too many times. So I would not limit it to the papacy, though the papacy certainly does seem to fill the bill. Now, as far as the… the Babylon in Revelation chapter 17 and 18 I do believe that’s a reference to ancient Jerusalem which fell in AD 70 I think the fall of Babylon there is the fall of Jerusalem in 70 AD but you’re saying could it be something more something spiritual because he does say come out of her my beloved and have nothing to do with her well I think he was calling the Christians out of Jerusalem and As Jesus told them, when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies flee, I think he was, don’t be a partaker for judgment. But no doubt there would be other cases not necessarily referred to here, but there would be parallel situations. See, just because there’s things parallel in modern times doesn’t tell us whether or not the original passage was talking about these modern things. I mean, if it was fulfilled in the ancient times, that’s good enough. But it doesn’t mean there aren’t wicked religious spiritual institutions today that are corrupt and that are going to be judged and which we should come out of lest we take part in her sins, too. So I would say both your suggestions are possible. I would see them as secondary. And I wouldn’t see them as necessary. But, you know, certainly in principle, yes. Both of these things can be seen to have a larger fulfillment in many cases in history. So I’m not going to say you’re wrong about that. All right. Oh, I’m sorry. I think I hung up on somebody I shouldn’t have hung up on. Ellen in Spokane, Washington. My mistake. Call her in New Hampshire. If you can call back, we’ll try to get to you. I’m sorry for that. Ellen in Spokane. Welcome.
SPEAKER 11 :
Hello. Hi. Yeah, I know the Bible says Jesus was tempted in all things, and I just want to know why it does not show him being tempted in the sexual area. Well, it doesn’t have to.
SPEAKER 02 :
It doesn’t have to.
SPEAKER 11 :
One of the biggest drives.
SPEAKER 02 :
Well, it doesn’t show him being tempted in the sexual area, but it tells us he was tempted in all ways, so obviously that would be one of the areas he’d be tempted. We only have like 39 days of his life recorded. spread out over a period of about three and a half years but most of the days of his life and most of the days of those three and a half years we have no record of what he did we only have about 39 days mentioned and it doesn’t talk about his temptations that much so I’d say there’s plenty of time for Jesus to have experienced just about every kind of temptation that we do off the record and I’m not really sure why we would particularly be edified to find a record of him being tempted with those things but he didn’t The Bible says he was tempted to all points like we are without sin. So he had all the weaknesses we have and drives and so forth. So I would just say it’s not a surprise to me that it’s not mentioned in a particular case, but we do have the summary statement. We know he was tempted sexually because he was tempted always that we are, and we are tempted sexually. Thank you for your call. Mike from New Hampshire, thanks for calling back. Welcome. Welcome.
SPEAKER 07 :
Oh, thank you, Steve. Greetings, brother, in the name of our Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ.
SPEAKER 02 :
Amen. We only have a few minutes, so please get on.
SPEAKER 07 :
Okay, on the topic that was just mentioned again on baptism, I was baptized as an infant, and from your perspective, I should be rebaptized and make a public proclamation.
SPEAKER 02 :
Well, I would. If I had been baptized as an infant, I would be baptized after conversion because, as I understand it, and I believe the early church understood it, baptism is something that people do after they believe and repent. And, you know, in Mark 16, it says, whoever believes and is baptized should be saved. And Peter said in Acts chapter 238, repent and be baptized. I believe believing and repenting come before baptized. And so baptizing a baby wouldn’t really qualify for that. some people say, well, now that I’m a believer, I can just look back at my infant baptism and call that my baptism. Well, I can see why someone might think that way. But there was a case in the book of Acts, chapter 19, where people were baptized with the baptism of John. And they thought that was good enough. And then Paul talked to them and said, no, you need to be baptized in the name of Jesus. And so they were baptized again in the name of Jesus. Now, the point here is that they had already been baptized before they really knew the gospel well. But when they did learn the gospel, Paul didn’t say, well, you know, since you were already baptized, let’s just call that your Christian baptism. Now, he said, no, no, that’s not right. You weren’t saved yet. You didn’t know about Christ yet. So now that you know about him, you need to be baptized into Christ specifically. Now, lots of churches, denominations, Catholic, Lutheran, Episcopal, Methodist, and many others, you know, they baptize infants. And I’m not trying to make an enemy of those people. I’m just saying there’s nothing in the Bible that supports the idea of baptizing an infant. And there’s no one in the Bible who did it that we know of. So since we are told that you’re supposed to believe and be baptized or repent and be baptized, if I were in your position, if someone had baptized me when I was a baby before I knew anything, I wouldn’t consider that to be Christian baptism. I was still an unrepentant little guy. I was a sinner. I was a wet sinner, you know, in that case. But now that I’ve decided to follow Jesus, it seems like the first step of following Jesus in the New Testament is to be baptized. You know, if on some chance God was willing to look at your infant baptism as the real thing, and I wouldn’t take that chance if it were me, but even if God would, it still doesn’t hurt anything to be baptized again, just to be safe, because then it would be meaningful to you. And, you know, it wasn’t meaningful to you when you were a baby. So I would recommend, yes, to be baptized again. I appreciate your call. We’re out of time. You’ve been listening to the Narrow Path Radio Broadcast. My name is Steve Gregg. We are listener supported. You can write to us at The Narrow Path, P.O. Box 1730, Temecula, California, 92593. Or you can do it from our website, which is thenarrowpath.com. Thanks for joining us.
