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In this episode, Steve Gregg engages with listeners on various critical theological questions, starting with a musician’s struggle with vainglory while serving in a worship setting. The discussion delves into the intricate balance between performing for admiration and genuinely directing praise to God. Steve provides personal insights from his own experiences and shares thoughts on how musicians can navigate these challenges. Further into the conversation, Steve addresses intriguing interpretations of 2 Corinthians, referencing Paul’s ‘thorn in the flesh’ and its possible meanings. The episode explores whether this phrase indicates a literal, physical infirmity, or a more spiritual challenge, revealing
SPEAKER 1 :
Thank you.
SPEAKER 11 :
Good afternoon and welcome to the Narrow Path Radio Broadcast. My name is Steve Gregg and we’re live for an hour each weekday afternoon. Taking your calls if you have questions about the Bible or the Christian faith. We are glad to talk to you about those here on the air. You can call 844-484-5737. That’s 844-484-5737 if you’d like to be on the program today. We have some calls waiting. We have a couple lines open if you’re interested to call that number. I apologize about yesterday. We had to play a recorded program again. That’s three times in two weeks. We had to do that twice last week and once yesterday, and none of those were planned. When I’m away from home… I broadcast using the personal hotspot provided on my iPhone. And my service is T-Mobile. And last week, when I was about to go on the air, T-Mobile changed our service without our knowing it. And it did not give me the hotspot service that I hoped for. So, I was just about to go on the air at that time, and I couldn’t log on because of it, which was aggravating. And so we missed that show. We had to play a recorded show. And then that day we called T-Mobile to get it fixed, to get things changed. And the next day we counted on it being changed, and it didn’t work then either. And then I got home, and I’ve been doing the show from my home, which I usually do. I don’t use the hotspot for that. And then yesterday I had to be in Los Angeles for something that was an unavoidable family issue, a family health issue. But I depended on the hotspot again, and it didn’t hook me up. So I’m going to have to probably change providers again. But in the meantime, I’m home for a few weeks, and I’ll be able to use our, you know, I can wire in. So that’s better. Anyway, just in case you were listening yesterday or last week or both and said, well, why are there so many shows being interrupted here? Yeah, it’s an equipment failure. But we don’t have that problem today. So if you’d like to be on the program, you can call me at 844-484-5737. Our first caller today is Justin calling from Austin, Texas. Justin, welcome to The Narrow Path.
SPEAKER 09 :
Hi, Steve. Actually, my wife had a question. She was planning on calling, but then something has come up, so she asked me to call for her. Okay. She is a musician. Well, she used to play out in different venues, but since we’ve had kids and everything, she hasn’t really played out for a long time, and… now we’ve kind of been really rededicating our lives to Christ, and she’s been invited at the church to come and play, and she’s been writing a lot of songs recently that are scripture-based, but she’s not really sure whether she’s ready to do that, because in her mind, she feels like she struggles with vainglory. She really loves, you know, the praise and adulation and so she’s not sure that she’s ready yet to do that in a way that’s really focused on God and we know that you are a musician and so I think she’s just looking for some advice and some guidance on decisions like that and how to make decisions like that if you feel like you’re not ready necessarily to do it for God’s glory
SPEAKER 11 :
Well, that’s a good concern. I think anybody who plays music in front of people, you know, has to be aware of that because music is one of those things which, at least in the world, is something that does get you a lot of appreciation and adulation and people think you’re special if you can play and sing and so forth. And you learn that, especially if you’ve been playing since you were young. You learn very young. that you can get people’s appreciation and admiration sometimes if you can play well in front of a group. And then when you become a Christian or you begin to try to play for the Lord instead of for your own reputation, you sense that there’s that element that has to be resisted. And, you know, there are people, I’m not one of them, but there are people who say that musical instruments should not be used in worship. And I think that may be part of their reasonings. Because, you know, you kind of get into this performance mode. Now, I have led worship. I don’t always do that, but I did regularly when I was younger. And I was aware of that, too. I mean, I was aware that, you know, if I play well, people might be impressed, you know. And if I don’t play well, they might despise me for it, you know. So you’ve got this kind of pressure because, honestly, you know, a band leading worship or somebody leading worship from a stage is kind of in a situation not very different, at least the way it feels, from performing anywhere else on a stage and having an audience. When you’re a worship leader, you’re not looking at the people in the congregation as an audience. You’re actually not performing for them, at least you shouldn’t be, and you’re instead trying to lead them in worship. But the fact remains, there’s a lot of carnality in our society, including in the church. And if you are very good, people will be impressed, probably. They might even say so. It might distract them. You know, I find that when I go to a church that I’m unfamiliar with, and I’ve never heard the people leading worship doing it before, it’s very rare that I’m not drawn to pay attention to the craftsmanship of the musicians. And partly because… If they’re really bad, it’s distracting. And if they’re really good, I, a person who’s a musician, also notice, oh, wow, he’s really good. You know, oh, that’s really a good lick. That piano player’s really good. And it distracts me, too. Once in a while, there’s someone who just does it just right, and it must be a gift that they’re not so good that it’s distracting and not so bad that it’s distracting. And so I have mixed feelings about this. I mean, I do sometimes lead worship with an instrument still. I don’t do it regularly all the time, so it’s not on my mind as much. But you try to just forget it. You know, I’m in small churches where everyone’s so familiar with each other that you don’t think about what people are thinking about you because you’re all good friends. But if I were in front of a big group or something like that, I don’t know, maybe the performer kind of thing might come up. And maybe that’s just a temptation that I have, but I don’t think it is just a temptation I have. I think performing musicians, they do care about the quality of their performance, where a Christian worship leader should care mostly about not distracting from God to oneself. And that’s not the easiest thing in the world to do, but it can be done. I mean, even if it means just stop playing and just sing, you know, but even a great voice. You know, a lot of churches, especially the really big ones that have a lot of money and stuff, They usually have, I think they pay their music team and stuff like that. And so they pay for people who are professional quality and all that. And that would include their voices. And a lot of times their voices are so professional that it distracts me. I don’t know what the solution is. I mean, because honestly, you know, some people like the non-instrumental churches would say, well, you just don’t use instruments. And that might be the answer. On the other hand, even if you don’t use instruments, a person’s voice might be distracting. I will say, like the churches of Christ, where they sing a cappella, at least the non-instrumental ones do, the congregation singing is often very beautiful. You don’t necessarily listen to the guy up front or whoever, but the congregation singing a cappella breaks into three-part harmonies. It’s just beautiful. It’s just a beautiful experience to listen to. But on the other hand, that could be distracting too, I suppose. So I guess we have to just, we need to, what, we need to discipline our minds somehow to not be distracted and to not be distracting to others. And your wife should just basically be, you know, keeping her finger on the pulse, on the spiritual pulse of the situation if she’s going to be playing music in front of people. I think it’s very commendable that she’s questioning it. Because, you know, it is something to be mindful of. And a lot of Christian musicians, I think, are just content to get up there and perform. And they’re not questioning it like she is. And sometimes, I don’t know their hearts, but I have to say sometimes they look like they’re really just performing. So I don’t know the solution to that. A solution might be to not do it. or if she’s playing an instrument that the worship team wants her to play in the background and she’s not drawing much attention to it, so she might be comfortable with that. But you have to kind of follow your own conscience in that, I think, because there isn’t anything in the Bible that says you can’t get up and play a musical instrument in front of people. David did that, King David, and he actually assigned musicians to to play night and day around this tent that he set up in Jerusalem that had the Ark of the Covenant in it. And so there was like, I think, 24 hours, 24-7, these musicians were playing around the Ark. And it was a group of them. It was a band of priests who were probably pretty good. Now, I will say this. There’s some enjoyment of music, even of skilled music, is not something that’s wrong necessarily. Christians could be entertained by good acting, good sports playing, good musicianship or whatever. The question is, of course, when you’re leading worship. If you’re leading worship, you don’t want to distract from God if you can help it. It might be, in a sense, better if she felt awkward about it for her to just play music in other places than worship times. You know, our band was not a worship band because back in the 70s in the Jesus movement, And the bands were not worship bands. They were evangelistic bands. We played Christian music on college campuses and public parks and high schools and wherever they let us, coffee houses. And the expectation was our music was directed toward nonbelievers, not directed toward God like worship, but directed toward unbelievers and telling them about God. So it was a very different kind of situation. If they were impressed with our music, all the better. because that would hold their ear while we told them about God. But that’s a very different situation than when you’re in front of a congregation trying to direct their thoughts toward God. It’s a very difficult thing. I will say this, too. At Calvary Chapel in 1970 and following for a little while, when there was only one Calvary Chapel, Chuck Smith’s church where we went, the worship… except on Sunday morning, which had a piano and organ playing, or just a piano sometimes. But the Monday night, Tuesday night, all the weeknights, they didn’t play instruments for worship. They sang a cappella. The teacher, if it was Chuck Smith or some other, Lonnie or Chuck Jr. or someone else teaching, they’d just sit on a stool and start singing. They didn’t have an instrument. And all the congregation would sing with them, a little bit like going to a Church of Christ singing situation. And it was very beautiful. But then they’d interrupt it with bands coming up that would have evangelistic music to reach the unbelievers who were there in the crowd, which there were always a lot of them. It’s a hard thing to answer. She’ll have to answer it for herself. I certainly know the feelings she’s concerned about, and I would suggest that she consider maybe some of the thoughts that I shared off the top of my head, but I don’t have an answer for her. She’ll have to make her own decision about that. Of course, you should always pray about it, and whenever you have to or are obliged to pray in front of people, you can pray in advance that God will Help you to have the proper spirit and the proper mind didn’t matter. Apart from that, there’s no easy solution to this problem because we live in a culture where musicians on stage often are performing and entertaining. And, of course, the reaction of the crowd to them is the whole point. Whereas when you’ve got a worship band up there, it’s hard to sort it out how much of the reaction of the crowd to the band is. is taking over from what should be. And that’s, of course, their reaction to God. I appreciate your question, but I don’t have a black and white answer about it.
SPEAKER 09 :
Those are really helpful thoughts, though. Thank you, Steve.
SPEAKER 11 :
All right, brother. It’s good talking to you. Welcome back to the rededication to the Lord. Glad to have you back. Thank you. All right, brother. All right, Michael from Englewood, California. Welcome to the show.
SPEAKER 04 :
Hi, Steve. Speaking of Inglewood, I know a few weeks ago you said you were going to be in Inglewood, and I was kind of upset that I was going to miss you, but then you said Inglewood, Tennessee, so I was relieved. Different Inglewood. So my two questions are from 2 Corinthians 12. The first one is, why does verse 2 say, Verse 2 says that I know a man who is caught up or something like that. But then in the NLT, it says I was caught up. So that’s my first question. Why does it say I or I knew a man?
SPEAKER 11 :
Okay, well, the NLT is – I’ll take your second question after I answer this one. The New Living Translation is a paraphrase, which means they’ll change the words of the Bible anytime they feel they need to to make them clearer to a reader who doesn’t know much about the Bible. they are written, some translations like the NLT, are written for the lowest common denominator of Bible readers in terms of their capability to understand stuff. And whereas a more adequate translation, which would mean more literal, would always have Paul say, I knew a man who had this experience. Now, the reason the NLT paraphrases it as they do is that most scholars believe that Paul is talking about himself, that the man he knew is a reference to himself. And that he’s saying it in that strange way because he’s boasting about this person. And he says, I won’t boast about myself. I’ll boast about this man. But the thing is, it’s almost certain that he’s talking about himself because there’s no reason to bring this man up. He starts by saying, I have doubtless, in verse 1, it is doubtless not profitable for me to boast. I will come to visions and revelations from the Lord. I know a man in Christ who 14 years ago, whether in the body or I don’t know, or out of the body. I don’t know. God knows. But that one was caught up in the third heaven. He saw stuff that, you know, he talked about seeing things that were magnificent and a great, you know, a great rare privilege for someone to see. And he started by saying, I will come to dreams and revelations. Now, this is at the end of chapter 11, where he’s been defending his apostleship and all the things he’s suffered for Christ and so forth. So he is talking about himself. But when he feels, and he says, I speak as a fool sometimes, because he doesn’t feel right about speaking about himself. But the reason he’s doing it is because there’s people in Corinth who are claiming he’s not an apostle. And therefore, if they reject his apostleship, he’s the one who planted that church and all the people were converted by him. If there’s false teachers saying, oh, Paul’s not an apostle. Then, of course, the church is vulnerable to be led astray by those people, so he had to reassert that he is an apostle. He felt very awkward, and he kept interrupting himself, saying, I’m speaking as a fool. I shouldn’t have to talk about myself this way. But when he comes to, and now I’ve talked about all the things I’ve suffered, I’ll come to the subject of dreams and revelations. Now, there’s no reason for him to go forward on this unless he’s continuing to talk about his qualifications. But he said, I know a man who had this experience. I won’t talk about me. I’ll talk about him, you know. It’s just kind of a literary way of getting the information across that he had had these visions without directly boasting about it. He felt it would be blasphemous to boast about something like a revelation that God had given him, and no doubt it would be. So that’s why he talked that way. It’s a strange way to talk, but that’s how he talks. And almost all scholars, at least anyone familiar with the context, would say he’s apparently talking about himself here. Now, The NLT that you mentioned, the New Living Translation, doesn’t expect readers to be that smart, I guess, to be able to put that together. So they just had to say, I had this experience. So they’re just paraphrasing, but they’re getting away from what Paul actually said, but trying to give you the meaning of it without the words that he used.
SPEAKER 04 :
Thanks. See, that really explains it. And so the second question is verse 7. Does that kind of mean that God gave him a demon to harass him?
SPEAKER 11 :
Well, he said he was given a thorn in the flesh, which he referred to as a messenger of Satan to buffet me, lest I be exalted above measure. Now, if a messenger of Satan means a demon, then he is saying that. But I don’t know that it’s a demon. A human being can be a messenger of Satan, too. But… You know, whatever it is, he is saying this is a satanic attack, whether it’s coming through a human or through merely a condition. Now, many people believe, and I would be among them, that he’s talking about a physical condition, which is caused by the devil, apparently. I mean, he does say it’s a messenger of Satan. This does not mean that he’s demon-possessed, obviously, but it means because Christians can be attacked by demons all the time without being demon-possessed. He apparently sees this chronic condition that he had, and there’s references to it other places, too, most notably in Galatians. He talks about how he had physical infirmity that caused him to come to Galatia, and that he says to them, I dare you witness that if it were possible, you’d have plucked out your own eyes and given them to me, which has led many scholars to believe that the infirmity he’s describing is would have been cured if he had some new eyes, which suggests he had eye problems. And there’s some other hints about that elsewhere in his writings, that he might have had problems with his eyes. And if that’s the thorn in the flesh he’s talking about, he’s apparently saying that that’s a form of attack that the devil is bringing against him. But God let it happen. But this is in keeping with general Christian theology anyway. Christian theology teaches that that when the devil attacks a Christian, God’s allowing it. And he’s allowing it for a purpose. Even before there were Christians, back in the days of Job, we read of God allowing Job to be tested by allowing Satan to have access to make him sick and to take his goods and things like that, to test him. Now, in 2 Corinthians also, earlier, Paul says that God will not allow us to be tested above that which we’re able to, or actually 1 Corinthians, tested above what we’re able to endure, but will with the temptation provide a way of escape. So it seems to me that he’s saying God has the power to allow us to be tempted to whatever degree he sees fit, and he won’t allow you to be tempted more than you can handle. That’s what he’s saying. So, yes, it looks like Paul is saying God is allowing Satan to, to try him in order to keep him humble. And Satan is doing that, apparently through some physical illness. Now, whether Paul is saying that physical illness is specifically caused by a demon or just, you know, the devil is afflicting him as Job was with physical illness, that would be left unexplained here. But the point is he sees the devil’s hand in it. But he also sees God’s hand in it because he prayed three times that the Lord would take it from him. The Lord said, my grace is sufficient for you. You know, my strength is made perfect in your weakness. And so Paul takes that to mean, oh, I guess he’s not going to take it away from me. He’s going to give me strength in it and he’ll be glorified more through it. So he says, therefore, I will rejoice in my infirmities and my weaknesses and so forth. So I wouldn’t say he’s saying there’s a demon after him, but it could be. I mean, he could say the demon is or the problem is being brought on by a demon. Thanks, Steve. All right, Michael. Thank you for your call. Benjamin in Sacramento, California. Welcome to The Narrow Path. Thanks for calling.
SPEAKER 02 :
Hi, Steve. Many blessings to you. Thank you. My question, it’s Revelations chapter 22. Probably got to do with taking from the Bible and adding to the Bible. I was thinking about that. And you know how sometimes we get a piece of paper and write down a chapter from the Bible and different things like that and marking the Bible up or highlighting and stuff like that. Does it somewhat mean that?
SPEAKER 11 :
No, not at all. And it’s not talking about the Bible. It’s talking about the book of Revelation. Because he says in verse 18 of chapter 22, for I testify to everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book. Okay, the prophecy of this book. In the New Testament, the only book of prophecy is the book of Revelation. So, you know, the New Testament in general isn’t a book of prophecy, but Revelation is. So whoever hears the words of the prophecy of this book, if anyone adds to these things, God will add to him the plagues that are written in this book. Again, Revelation is a book full of plagues. The other books of the Bible are not. He says, and if anyone takes away from the words of this book, of this prophecy, God shall take away his place from the book of life, or the tree of life in some manuscripts, from the holy city and from the things which are written in this book. Now, when he talks about adding or taking away from the book, he’s not talking about copying something out of it and now you’ve taken it away. Because when you copy something out, you haven’t taken it away. You’ve made another copy of it, but you haven’t removed it from any part. What the writer is saying is that you don’t add any new prophecies to this book that is in the book. Don’t be tampering with it. And don’t subtract any of the prophecies from the book. He’s not talking about the whole Bible. He’s certainly not saying that the Bible’s canon is closed. Because in Deuteronomy, God also said don’t add anything to God’s words. And yet most of the books of the Bible were written after that. And likewise, Proverbs chapter 30, verse 5 and 6 says, don’t add to the words of God. And yet, again, most of the books of the Bible were written after Proverbs. So we have, it’s not, to say don’t add to his words doesn’t mean don’t write any more books of the Bible. It certainly doesn’t mean, if it says don’t take away from them, it doesn’t mean don’t copy them down on a separate piece of paper. That’s not at all what is in mind there. The idea is tampering with the book. tampering with it, removing its contents or adding to its contents, which was forbidden. All right, Benjamin, I appreciate your call. The music is playing, so we have to take a break here. We’re only halfway through the program. We have another half hour coming up. But at this point, we’d like to let you know that we’ve got bills, and we don’t sell anything. We don’t have sponsors. We provide everything on the air for free, and everything on our website is free, too. We have nothing for sale, but we do pay money. While we don’t charge money, we do pay money to radio stations, and that’s well over $100,000 a month. We’ve been doing this for 28 years, so God obviously has provided, but it’s not through sponsors and not through sales of products. It’s through listeners. And if you’d like to help us stay on the air, you can write to us at The Narrow Path, P.O. Box 1730, Temecula, California, 92593. Or at our website, thenarrowpath.com, where everything is free, but you can donate there at thenarrowpath.com. I’ll be back in 30 seconds. Don’t go away.
SPEAKER 01 :
If you call the narrow path, please have your question ready as soon as you are on the air. Do not take much time setting up the question or giving background. If such detail is needed to clarify your question, the host will ask for such information. Our desire is to get as many callers on the air during the short program. There are many calls waiting behind you, so please be considerate to others.
SPEAKER 11 :
Welcome back to the Narrow Path radio broadcast. My name is Steve Craig, and we’re live for another half hour, taking your calls. Our lines have just filled up, so you can’t get through right now, but probably before the end of the hour, some lines will have opened up, and you might be able to get through if you call randomly in the next half hour. The number is 844-484-5737. That’s 844-484-5737. Our next caller is Jeff from Enumclaw, Washington. Hi, Jeff. Welcome.
SPEAKER 08 :
Hi, Steve. I’ve got a question about when Jesus was talking to the woman at the well, he said that if you would have asked, I would have given you living water, that would come out of you and never go away. And I’m wondering how that applies to praying in the spirit, especially when Paul in Romans says, I pray more than you all in the spirit. And then he goes on to say, you can also pray with moans and groans too deep for words. Do those two correlate with praying in the spirit? And one more question. Now, for me personally, I don’t know if I’m fooling myself, but I feel like I can open my heart without saying anything out of my mouth and be praying in the Spirit. Can you comment on those?
SPEAKER 11 :
Sure. So when Jesus said this to the woman at the well, John 4, 14, But whoever drinks of the water that I should give him will never thirst, But the water that I shall give him will become in him a fountain of water springing up to eternal life. Yeah, he first talks about it as a well. He’s at a well with this woman and he’s asked for water. And she says, well, you know, she said, why did you ask me? He said, well, if you’d asked me, I would have given you living water. And she’s wondering how he’d get the water out of the well. Right. He’s now talking about the water he gives will be a spring, a fountain springing up out of the person. Now you’re asking whether there’s springing forth. We know he’s talking about the Holy Spirit. We know that because he also mentions giving people living water in John 7, verses 35 through 37. I’m sorry, verse 37 through 39, excuse me, where it says that this living water he’s speaking about is the Holy Spirit, which was going to be given to believers. So he’s saying, I can meet the spiritual thirst with this living water. I can cause the Holy Spirit to be given to you, and the Holy Spirit will become like a fountain springing up. So it’s not just that you have a reservoir. within you, not just the Holy Spirit lives in you, but he comes through you. He comes out and blesses others around you. And that is the evidence, I believe, through the gifts of the Spirit in general. That’s the manifestation of the Spirit. That’s the Spirit coming up and working through you to others. I think that fountain springing up is a reference to ministry in the Spirit. Now you ask, what about praying in the Spirit? Well, that could be included. Certainly, The gift of tongues is a manifestation of the Spirit, according to Paul in 1 Corinthians 12. So that’s one of the gifts. So it is possible that that would be included in what he’s talking about. I don’t think he’s only talking about that. I don’t think this is a passage about speaking in tongues, per se. But it’s a passage about the Holy Spirit, you know, coming through you, coming out to refresh others. I mean, if you’re thirsty, I’ll give you the living water and then it’ll be a fountain and you spring it up and by implication, others can drink too. You can refresh others. So, I would suggest that any time a person is genuinely praying in the Holy Spirit, that this would be one case of this happening. You know, if somebody’s doing something else that is their spiritual gift, that would be another kind of case. Now, Paul, as you pointed out, in 1 Corinthians 14, or no, you didn’t mention that, I was thinking of that, but Romans 8, it says that we often don’t know what to pray for as we ought, but the Spirit of God intercedes through us with groans and so forth, too deep for utterance, he says. Now, a lot of people apply that to speaking in tongues. And I don’t know if Paul’s thinking of speaking in tongues as that or not, because speaking in tongues is specifically referred to as an utterance in Acts chapter 2, you know, where Paul talks about groans too deep to utter. Now, you said sometimes you just feel like you’re praying even when you’re not making a sound. That may be the thing that Paul’s thinking of. It may be that the Holy Spirit is praying through you when you can’t find words to pray, as you are intending to direct your thoughts and concerns to God. Even if you don’t know how to enunciate them, it is possible that that’s what he is thinking of. Now, I think that praying in tongues may be another instance of the same kind of thing, you know. But I don’t know that the statement of Paul in Romans 8 is trying to focus on tongues alone anyway. Because he talks about groans, which isn’t quite the same thing. But in principle, it might be the same thing. It might be that when you pray in tongues or when you’re just groaning because you can’t think of anything, you say, In both cases, the Holy Spirit translates the concerns on your heart into prayers to God, even though they’re not uttered in a way that people can hear them or understand them. Here, God does.
SPEAKER 08 :
Yeah. One time, I asked God to tell me what I was praying, and I actually fell asleep. But it’s like I could hear myself praying in tongues, and it was… All through the night, and I woke up the next morning, and I was so grieved. I thought God just kind of showed me how he grieves for everybody and wanting them to come to the Lord. And I go, this was way too heavy, and I don’t want that again. Well, it could be.
SPEAKER 11 :
It could be. I will say this, that there have been times when I’ve had someone’s welfare on my heart. And I haven’t known exactly what they needed. I haven’t known what circumstance they’re in. They just come to my mind. And I think it’s maybe God bringing it to my mind to pray for them. And since I don’t know what to say, I’ve just prayed in tongues. And my assumption, it’s never been confirmed to me. Well, I think one time it was. But generally speaking, it’s not confirmed to me. My assumption is that as I’m intending to pray for them, as I assume the Holy Spirit is putting them on my heart, then as I pray in the Spirit that, that those prayers are probably about that, about them. But I, you know, I couldn’t prove that, but no harm is done if I’m wrong. You know, it doesn’t hurt anyone.
SPEAKER 08 :
Right. I really had a heart for, um, like, um, voice of the martyrs and open doors and that kind of stuff. It’s kind of like I used to be out, uh, with operation mobilization.
SPEAKER 11 :
Really?
SPEAKER 08 :
So I got a little bit of a taste and, uh, Just, I don’t know, the last few years, well, the people that got killed in Africa just, you know, blew me away, and it hurt.
SPEAKER 11 :
Hey, Jeff, I’m going to give someone else a chance here before we run out of time. We’ve got a lot of calls waiting.
SPEAKER 08 :
Well, thank you, Steve. God bless. Thank you.
SPEAKER 11 :
All right, Jeff. God bless you. I appreciate your call. Okay. Bye now. Tony from Nampa, Idaho. Welcome to The Narrow Path.
SPEAKER 06 :
How are you, Tom? So, I… I keep getting myself into situations where people are telling me, hey, I really need to get to church, and I really need to do this and that. And I just, I tell people, I say, more than God wants you in church, he wants to have a relationship with you. Is that like a bad thing to say to people, or is that like on the right line with what you tell people?
SPEAKER 11 :
Well, no, that’s an entirely true statement. I mean, the fact that, you know, people often encounter God, or express their relationship and love and worship to God in church, it doesn’t change the fact that some people do go to church and don’t encounter God. They’re not even Christians, and they’re not looking to be Christians. They go for whatever other reason. So if people go to church and are not seeking God or connecting with God, then going to church hasn’t really helped them, and it hasn’t necessarily pleased God more. You know, if a person goes to church because they are seeking God or they know God and they just want to worship Him there, that’s a good thing. But that is nothing else but an expression of the relationship with God. The relationship with God is at the core what God’s looking for. God wants us to be in the proper kind of relationship with Him, which is a loving and trusting relationship and an obedient one too. All of those things are part of a proper relationship with God. If you aren’t loving Him, trusting him or obedient to him, that’s definitely a subnormal relationship, if it’s a relationship at all. So, you know, God’s more interested in that. He’s more interested in the quality of your relationship. But among the things that belong to a relationship with God is a relationship with his people. And when God becomes your father, then all of his people become your brothers and sisters, and God wants us to be involved. in the lives of our brothers and sisters, so that we can help them, and they can help us. And not just doing things that you do at church. I mean, let’s face it, going to the average church service in America doesn’t necessarily make you useful to anyone in particular. Now, some people in these churches become very useful. They volunteer to do things and stuff for the church, which is very good, but But a lot of people go to church and go home and go to church and go home for years and years and years, and they never once end up doing anything, any kind of service or showing any kind of sacrifice for anyone there. They’re just going the same way you’d go to a theater every Sunday and go home. So, you know, the main thing is that going to church isn’t really what God’s looking for, though it certainly should be a minimum thing, the very minimum people should gather with other Christians. The Bible says that we’re not to give that up. But gathering with other Christians isn’t always productive. It depends on what we do when we gather with other Christians. But, you know, people think, well, I go to church on Sunday, and so I guess I’m doing what Christians are supposed to do. Well, that’s one thing that Christians should do, but Christians are supposedly serving each other all through The week all through life. And of course, many churches are not set up in such a way as to make that very feasible, partly because you don’t know anybody there. You don’t know what their needs are. There’s just not any real interaction of that kind, as there would be in the early church where everyone knew each other. They all. They share their goods together. They ate together regularly. I mean, that’s a very different situation than most churches have today. So just going to church isn’t like checking a box with God so he’s happy you went because you did, but rather your relationship with him and with the others in his family is what matters to him. And going to church should, in some way, enhance that or give opportunities to express that. But if it doesn’t, then I’m not sure that going to church is of any value to God or you. But I still would recommend, even if you don’t think you’re getting much out of church, I would suggest going to church simply so you can continue to have acquaintance with other Christians. In a world like ours, we need as many of those as we can get. All right. Thank you, brother, for your call. By the way, we have a couple of lines that have now opened if you want to call. The number is 844-484-5737. That’s 844-484-5737. Our next call is from Slavic in Spartanburg, South Carolina. Hi, Slavic. Welcome. Hi, Steve. Hi.
SPEAKER 05 :
I’ve been listening to you and David Burseau a lot lately, and I’ve heard that you like David Burseau. I heard, I think, in some of your previous radio podcasts, I mean, where people have asked you some questions about his views and stuff. And I did have a question about, or I don’t know, I guess, I see… I see Ai Tai with a lot of the stuff that he says, especially on life after death or what happens after we die. But some stuff, it seems like he relies heavily on the writings of the early church fathers. For example, he’ll quote something about that, that those whose sins and crimes have been brought to light, these will not rise again. he probably does not believe that. I’m pretty sure that he believes that, like Jesus said, that all who are in the graves and in the tombs will hear his voice and come out, those who have done good to the resurrection of life and those who have done evil to the resurrection of judgment.
SPEAKER 11 :
Okay, is this getting to a question here?
SPEAKER 05 :
Yeah, I was wanting to ask you about the intermediate state. I don’t think that… that your view is similar to his? When it comes to the intermediate state, do you believe that we go to be present with the Lord in spirit?
SPEAKER 11 :
Yeah, that’s my thought. Now, when I say I like David Rousseau, I’ve never met the man. I’ve heard him preach, and he’s written some good books. But he’s written more books than I have read. You’re right. He kind of specializes in the writings of the church fathers. And one of his most useful books is that dictionary of early church beliefs or whatever that he put out, the big book where you kind of look up almost any subject in the Bible and he has quotations from the church fathers. That’s a really helpful book. And I read, of course, his original book, Will the True Heretic Stand Up? And I agreed with most of the things in that. So, I mean, when I say I like some, but I mean that they put out some useful things. And also, someone has to be awfully bad for me not to like them at all because I like most people, especially Christians. But it doesn’t mean that I’m familiar with all that he teaches or that I would approve of all that he teaches, nor does he need for me to approve of all that he teaches. If he’s serving God, he’ll answer to God for whatever he says, even if I don’t agree with it. Again, nobody has to believe what I believe. But I know his background. He was a Jehovah’s Witness way back when, and then he became a Christian, and I think he’s a lawyer now. and studied the church fathers a lot and kind of formed beliefs. I remember at one point, many years ago, he’s not there anymore, I don’t think, that he kind of thought the Anglican church was the best church, most likely church fathers, which I thought was kind of a strange thing. conclusion, but he didn’t stay there. He went more into an Anabaptist kind of a way, I think. And I don’t know where he stands now. I honestly don’t. I haven’t read to him for a long time. But as far as what he believes about the intermediate stage, which, if people don’t know what that means, that means after you die, but before you’re resurrected. When Jesus comes back, he’s going to resurrect our bodies, but when we die, our spirit goes somewhere, and then he’ll resurrect it. And I believe the Bible teaches, especially in 2 Corinthians 5, the first, say, five verses, and also in Philippians 1, Paul talks about death as a departing from the body to be with the Lord. Now, I know of people like Seventh-day Adventists and others who don’t see it the way I do, but what they say doesn’t usually fit the wording of Paul. Paul talks about being absent from the body, which is when we’re dead, and present with the Lord. Most people say, well, he’s referring to being resurrected. No, no, he can’t be doing that because he says absent from the body. When you’re dead, you’re absent from the body, but when you’re resurrected, you’re back in your body again. So you’re not absent from the body any time except between the time you die and the time that you’re raised from the dead. He’s clearly talking about that. Now, he says he’s eager to be absent from the body and to be present with the Lord. Sometimes they say, well, present with the Lord doesn’t mean he’s conscious up there, that God keeps our spirit in safekeeping until the resurrection, but we’re not conscious. Well, I don’t think the Bible teaches that. Paul said in Philippians, I’m eager to depart and be with the Lord, which is far better. What, being unconscious is better than being alive? I’m not really sure how that would be argued, but there are many Christians who see things differently. I honestly don’t know what David Bersow teaches on that, so I can’t say I agree or disagree with him on that. But I would say that there are lots of teachers that I like, including myself. I like my teaching, too, but I like the teaching of other people. I don’t think any of those teachers, including myself… are infallible. So I would believe that people should listen to teachers who are honest and, you know, responsible, and then do what the Bereans do. Hear them, and then search the scriptures daily and see if these things are so. And avoid at all costs having loyalty to some teacher or another, because there’s no teacher that you could ever hear that’s infallible.
SPEAKER 05 :
Yeah, his view, from what I heard, is more that he believes in… that the righteous now, they go to Haiti, the Abraham’s bosom part of Haiti still. So his arguments, I found, go more against the combat soul sleep rather than, you know, being present, you know, with the Lord. So I agree with you, and I’m not trying to, you know, put any bad reputation on him or anything like that. I was just wondering how you would respond to, you know, some of his arguments. That’s it.
SPEAKER 11 :
Right. Yeah, well, yeah, I don’t think, I mean, I do believe people went to Hades until the death and resurrection of Christ. But after that, we don’t read of Christians going to Hades. Like I said, when they’re absent from the body, they’re not present in Hades. They’re present with the Lord, and he’s not there.
SPEAKER 03 :
Yeah.
SPEAKER 11 :
All right, brother. Thanks for your call. We’ll take another call. This one from David in Phoenix, Arizona. David, welcome to The Narrow Path.
SPEAKER 10 :
Hi, Steve. I try to listen to your show on a daily basis, and I’m going to try to make one of your meetings here in Phoenix when you come at the end of the month. But my question is, I would like for you to make some comments on an individual who calls himself Witness Lee and Witness Nee and the local church, and specifically I’m talking about the one in Huntington Beach, California.
SPEAKER 11 :
Okay.
SPEAKER 10 :
Could you just comment on that, and I will… Take my answer off the phone line.
SPEAKER 11 :
Okay. There are two individuals, both of them from China. They came from China. Well, Watchman Nee never came here from China. He died in prison, I believe. If I’m not mistaken, he was at least 20 years in a Chinese communist prison because he was a leader of a Christian movement there when the communists were not allowing that. Witness Lee was a disciple of Watchman Nee. or a protege or a companion of his in some way, and came to America and started what they call the local church here. Witness Lee, I’ll just say this, I have more respect for Watchman Nee, who died in China, than I have for Witness Lee. Now, I’m not making Witness Lee out to be a heretic or anything like that, but his teachings, I think, were more controversial than those of Watchman Nee. And I think there’s more people who would give Watchman Nee two thumbs up than there are who would Witness Lee. I heard Witness Lee preach once in Anaheim. His headquarters were there at the time. I’m pretty sure he’s deceased now. He’d be really old if he’s not. But Yeah, they had their own little quirky things. You know, Christians who are charitable toward their group, their group called the local church, charitable Christians often say, well, the quirky things in the movement, they reflect more of Chinese culture than bad theology. And that’s probably true. I mean, the majority of the people in the movement initially were Chinese people. And… Actually, I was quite close friends of some Chinese people in that movement in Santa Cruz back in the mid-’70s. And Santa Cruz, California, there’s a local church there. And the leader of it was a friend of mine. And some others, I mean, I actually visited them some. But they did have kind of strange things they did in their service, strange compared to American ways of doing things. They were kind of cultic. I have to say, they were once accused of being non-Trinitarian. They had a reputation of being modalists, which is something other than Trinitarianism. But it came out later, they say, well, no, we are Trinitarian. You’re just misunderstanding the way Witness Lee was communicating. And that’s a possibility because I have not found him easy to follow when he teaches. But let’s see. They were kind of They believed that their movement was the recovery of true Christianity. And when I met people who had been in the movement from early on, they knew their number. You know, like Witness Lee is like number one in the recovery, and then his lieutenants were numbers two, three, four, five, and so forth. And I met people who said that they were number 375 in the recovery, which is a pretty low number, which means they had got in early. But the whole point is it was focused entirely on their movement as the recovery of Jesus’ movement. And they obviously thought it started with Witness Lee. So that’s kind of cultic, right? And so they also, I don’t think they do anymore. But back in the 70s, they used to go and stand out in front of churches on Sunday morning and protest them and call them Babylon and so forth. I mean, just ordinary denominational churches. So the group was really odd. They had some odd worship practices, too. I won’t go into right now, but not offensive, just odd. And perhaps some people have distrusted them because they are culturally so different than American churches. But I haven’t had any contact with them for a very long time. And I would say that I don’t know of anything Witness Lee taught that is specifically contrary to being a Christian, although obviously some of the things he taught would be not what most Christians would follow. And that’s about the most I can say about it. I wish I could do you better. Let’s talk to John in Gig Harbor, Washington. John, welcome to The Narrow Path.
SPEAKER 07 :
Hi, Steve. Hi. Thank you for your inspiring words. You sure inspire me to want to talk more about Jesus. So thank you. I’ve got a question and something you might want to look into. And either one I can tell you first. Very quickly, because we only have a couple minutes. Yeah. Okay, I have a question about the time of Ramesses and the time of where the fall of Jericho comes seems to be like 800 years before, possibly. And where that word Ramesses, does it really mean, does the Bible, when it was written, although Moses was before that, it gets confusing. And I read or watched his Patterns of Evidence by Timothy Mahoney. And what do you think about that?
SPEAKER 11 :
Do you think the timing is… Well, yeah, what he pointed out is that a lot of scholars, Bible scholars, place the time of Moses and the escape from Egypt around 1200 or so. like the 13th century BC and they’ve not been able to find in certain places confirmation archaeologically but then his suggestion was they’re looking in the wrong century that it was really about 1400 BC and that when you look at that level in archaeology you do find evidence of it the whistling has begun which means I’m done here I’m sorry I can’t go further because it took a while to find out what your question was going to be but I appreciate your call. By the way, I’m going to be speaking the last few days of this month in Arizona on the 28th, 29th, and 30th. If you are in Arizona, you can go to our website, thenarrowpath.com, and see where I will be. Look at the tab there that says announcements. The Narrow Path is listener supported. If you’d like to help us, you can write to The Narrow Path, P.O. Box 1730, Temecula, California, 92593. Or just go to our website. You can donate there. And also look at announcements. See where I’ll be speaking at. TheNarrowPath.com Let’s talk again tomorrow.
