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Steve Gregg tackles complex themes surrounding the concept of God’s belief in humanity, illustrated by a touching listener’s testimony. The episode delves into the controversial topic of hell, examining various theological interpretations of hellfire, torment, and the possibilities of purification. Also, Steve guides a caller through the almost philosophical question of how Christians can maintain genuine joy despite knowing the religious struggles faced by others. Packed with rich, theological discussion, this episode promises to provide listeners with new layers of understanding when it comes to faith, God’s expectations, and personal spirituality.
SPEAKER 1 :
Thank you.
SPEAKER 09 :
Good afternoon and welcome to the Narrow Path radio broadcast. My name is Steve Gregg and we’re live for an hour each weekday afternoon to take your calls if you want to call in with your questions about the Bible or the Christian faith. We discuss them here. You can disagree with the host. Be glad to have your call if you do and we’ll be glad to talk about that. The number to call is 844- That’s 844-484-5737. And just now, I think our line’s just filled up, so if you happen to get a busy signal when you call, just try it a little later, and lines will be opening up. And you can probably get through sometime in the coming hour. Now, I’m going to be speaking in Tennessee and in Arizona next month. If you’re listening in Tennessee or Arizona, you might want to go to our website, thenarrowpath.com, look under announcements, and you can see where those meetings are. I’m meeting in a number of cities in both places. If you happen to live in Tennessee or Arizona and want to book meetings, a meeting with me. We are always open to, you know, filling in dates there. So if you want to get in touch with us, do so soon because obviously March is upon us. And the following month, April, I’m going to be in Northern California for close to a week, I think, and then in Texas for a week or so. And same kind of thing. If you’re in those areas and you want to book something or if you just want to attend, you can see where those meetings are by going to thenarrowpath.com. In May, we’re going to Seattle for over a week. I’ll be speaking every night, probably, for over a week in different locations near Seattle, or I should just say, you know, western Washington State, really. And then in August, and this is something I haven’t said much about because it’s newly come in. I have three, in August, I have three Midwest things, speaking engagements. One of them is the Grand Rapids Conference. Michigan area. One is in the Detroit area. And the other is over in Illinois, in Rochelle, Illinois. Now, I think those are probably posted on our website. Actually, the one in Illinois, I think, is a week later posted. than the ones in Michigan, which means we have a lot of days in between that are not booked. And if you’re in, you know, the Great Lakes area or something, and you want to set up a meeting, get in touch with us, and we will put it on our calendar. So that’s in mid-August, actually. The Detroit and Grand Rapids areas, one are August 15th and 16th, I believe, and I think the Illinois area. Rochelle, Illinois, is about the next weekend. So just if you’re in those areas and want to attend or set something up, I want you to know about that. Sorry to have so many things to announce, but these things just all came in here at the beginning of the year. And, you know, since I do go out to these places, we like to fill in all the dates just so I don’t have time to sit around and twiddle my thumbs with nothing to do. which isn’t very often the case, but we do let you know so that you can kind of get your foot in the door if you want to set something up. Okay, our lines, as I said, are full, so we’re going to go to the phones now and talk first of all to Peter from Woodburn, Oregon. Hi, Peter. Welcome to The Narrow Path.
SPEAKER 02 :
Hi, Steve. I have two questions. I’ll just try and be as quick as I can. I don’t remember exactly how the wording goes, but it’ll be different for the versions that everybody reads, but it’ll be easy for my question. Basically, Jesus asks a question and tells a parable, and the parable is he has two servants, and one he tells him what he wants him to do, and the servant says, okay, I’ll do it, and then later he doesn’t do it. And then he has a servant who he tells him, He’s not going to do it, but then he does do it. And then he asked the crowd or the people there who was the servant that was correct or right. And basically they said that the servant that said he wasn’t going to do it but ended up doing it was the one that was right. And Jesus’ response to them has really always kind of, I didn’t really understand it. It sounds to me like he’s saying that they’re wrong because he says, If I’m correct, you know, the response he gives them is not, okay, you’re right. It sounds like he’s saying you’re wrong. That’s my first question is why he would say that because to me it sounds like.
SPEAKER 09 :
Let’s take that one. Let’s take that one.
SPEAKER 02 :
Okay.
SPEAKER 09 :
He said that a man had two sons. This is in Matthew 21, 28 through 32. And he says he had two sons, and he told the first one, go and work today in the vineyard. The son said, I will not. Notice he rebelled. But afterward he regretted it, or he repented, and he went and he obeyed his father after all. This is, of course, a picture of the tax collectors and sinners that Jesus was associated with in their earlier life. They had neglected to obey God, but now they were repenting and coming to Christ. They were like this son who, at first, refused to be obedient, but changed their mind and became obedient. Then he said, he came to the second son and said likewise. And he answered and said, I go, sir. But he did not go. Okay, so these are the people, like the scribes and Pharisees, who claimed to be obeying. They said, oh yeah, we’ll obey God. But they really didn’t. So there’s a contrast here between the tax collectors and sinners here. who were coming to Christ, who were criticized by the Pharisees. And Jesus said, well, actually, they’re the ones who actually obey it, and you’re not. So, anyway, he said, which of the two did the will of his father? And they said to him, the first. And Jesus said to them, surely I say to you that tax… So, he’s saying, yeah, you are wrong. You’re that son who’s doing wrong. You know, you’ve just condemned yourself. You mentioned that there’s a son who obeyed, and he’s the one who was disobedient at first, like the tax collectors and the sinners and the harlots, who were now repenting and were coming to Christ. So now they were obedient, although they had been disobedient before. But you guys, he says, you always claim to be obedient, but you’ve never really done the will of God. You’ve never really been obedient. So, by the way, by their answer, which was the right answer, They condemned themselves. So he does say, you guys are in the wrong. Not that you gave the wrong answer, but you are wrong in your behavior. You are wrong in your criticism of these people. You’re just wrong. And he said, you yourself have pointed that out by your answer to this question. So he’s not saying they gave the wrong answer. He’s saying by giving the right answer, they have condemned themselves because they are living the wrong way.
SPEAKER 02 :
Yes. That makes a lot of sense. My other question is just simple. It’s more related to your, kind of just how your thoughts on this. How would you feel if, and what would you think about this, if God told you he believes in you? If God said what? If God said to you, you heard it from him and he said, I believe in you. How would you take that? Wow.
SPEAKER 09 :
I would take it as a compliment.
SPEAKER 02 :
Okay. It’s just hard for me to believe. I feel like God told me that a few weeks ago and he actually confirmed it to me, but I’m still really trying to wrap my brain around what that really means because I don’t feel like He should believe in me because I fail a lot.
SPEAKER 09 :
I feel like I fail all the time. If you believe in somebody, it doesn’t mean that you believe they never fail. If you believe in somebody, it means you believe in their integrity. You believe that they’re honest. You believe that they will endeavor to carry out their stated intentions. To believe in somebody doesn’t mean you believe that they are flawless. it means that you recognize them as having integrity and faithfulness as opposed to others who don’t. You know, I think if a father says to his son, I believe in you, son, he’s not saying that his son is doing everything right, but he’s saying that he does believe his son’s intentions are good and that he will carry them out. Now, see, when we come to Christ, of course, the emphasis always comes, you know, in evangelism is that, you know, you need to believe in Jesus. You need to believe in God. You need to trust in him. Well, that’s true. That’s true. But you’re entering into a relationship similar to marriage. This is what a covenant is. If we have a relation with God at all, it’s a covenant relationship. And God compares that relationship with marriage. And we may not know intuitively very much about a covenant people make with God, but we do know a great deal about marriage because it’s a very familiar institution. So, you know, the husband, when he says to the wife, you need to trust me, you know, well, that’s a fair thing for him to expect. I’m telling you the truth. You should trust me. Then I’m honest. But the wife, you know, has to take the same position. Well, you have to trust me, too. You see, when people get married, they’re making promises to each other, and promises are of no value if the persons making them are not trustworthy. When you make a promise, you are welcoming that person and hoping that person will trust you, that you’re honest and you intend to keep that promise. So, I mean, when we – the Bible says in 1 Peter 3 and verse 20 that the – that being baptized is the pledge of a clean conscience before God. Now, that phrase has been understood differently by different scholars and commentators, but it would not be untrue to say that when I get baptized, that’s my pledge to God. I’m on your side now. I’m going to follow Jesus now. And if a person doesn’t make some kind of a pledge, whether verbally or otherwise, They haven’t come into the kingdom yet. They haven’t followed Christ yet. They haven’t converted yet. Conversion means I used to not want to follow you, but now I fully intend to do so. That’s my promise. And if God says, good, I’m glad I can trust you. Now, I can trust you doesn’t mean I expect that you’ll never stumble. I can trust you means I believe you mean what you’re saying, and I’m going to count on it. I’m going to count on what you said being true. And I accept your promise. And now I’m looking to you to keep it. So, I mean, that’s true in any relationship where there’s anything at stake, any, you know, relationship partners in a business or, of course, marriage partners. You know, or even, you know, even when we elect public officials, you know, they make promises. We expect them to keep them. And they expect us, if they keep their promises, they expect us to be supportive of them and obedient to, you know, the policies. God is not different than that. We have to trust him. But he’s got to be able to trust us too. But him trusting me doesn’t mean that he thinks I will never make a mistake or that I’ll never fall short of perfection. He knows better than that. But it means he expects me to hang in there. He expects me to keep my promises. He expects me to be faithful unto death so he can give me the crown of life. That’s all in the package. So it’s a two-way relationship. And if God says, I trust you, Well, that’s nice. I mean, I hope you can trust all of us. Now, you know, of course, we’re not perfect, and neither is a husband or a wife. But the fact that people make vows at a wedding, they’re not saying, I will never be anything other than perfect. They’re saying, I’m making this pledge to you, and I’m going to keep this pledge to you. And they both have to believe that. They have to trust each other. So that’s, I mean, I don’t know that God has ever spoken those words to me, but I wouldn’t say he couldn’t have spoken them to you. And, you know, Paul said in one of his epistles that God chose him because he counted him faithful. He figured that Paul was trustworthy, which means God trusted him. But that’s kind of the way that it has to be with all of us. We have to If we say, okay, God, I’m going to follow Jesus now. I’m getting baptized. This is my pledge. I’m putting on the wedding ring here. Then God’s got to be able to trust us. Hopefully he can. He should be able to. There were lots of people in the Old Testament he was able to trust. So he should be able to trust us who follow Christ as well.
SPEAKER 02 :
Thank you.
SPEAKER 09 :
All right, Peter. Thank you. Karen and Andre in Aldergrove, British Columbia. Hi, Karen. Welcome. Hi. Hi. Hi.
SPEAKER 08 :
So I have a friend with me, Andre, and he has been perplexed about the words in the Bible like furnace and fire and lake of fire. Eternal lake of fire. Eternal lake of fire. And I think… I don’t know how to explain it, but he believes in God. He doesn’t call himself a Christian yet, but also…
SPEAKER 09 :
thinks it’s a deal breaker you know how lots of people say a loving God why would he do that you know those kinds of things so I wanted to call and ask you because I don’t know how to answer that well when we come to God there can’t be any deal breakers on our side I mean if we say well God I’m not going to love you unless you can answer this question to my satisfaction because that’s a deal breaker with me God says have fun you know good luck God doesn’t change anything for us. He is what he is, and he doesn’t change. Now, our crisis is, will I change who I am? Will I change the way I think in order to conform to the mind and will of the creator who made me, who owns me, and who will eventually evaluate and reward me accordingly? for my activities someday. Now, that’s the position we are in. Many people feel like they are the ones sitting in the judge’s booth at the bar of judgment, and God is the one on trial. And, you know, God, if you can prove to me you’re innocent of the things that I don’t like about you, then I’ll let you be my God. Well, God says, I’m sorry, you’ve got the roles reversed here. I’m the one who’s the judge. You’re the one who has to conform to me, not vice versa. Now, that’s the way it is. Now, let me say about the fire. Fire is used a lot of times in Scripture, not always about hell. It does seem like hell is sometimes referred to as a place of fire, but hell’s not mentioned very often in the Bible. When it is, there are places where it does talk about fire, the lake of fire. So, okay, so the place where those who have rebelled against God and died in that rebellion are sent is the lake of fire. Now, fire in the Bible is used as an emblem of many different things. I seriously doubt that we’re talking about natural fire. We’re talking about a preternatural, you know, situation here after the world has been burned up and so forth. I really don’t think we’re looking at a natural situation here. But fire… is found throughout Scripture, in the prophets, in the Old Testament, in Jesus’ teaching, in various places, you know, in the New Testament. And it’s used different ways. Fire is sometimes used to speak of burning something up. In fact, that’s the most common usage of it, is something gets burned up. And there’s a lot of people who believe that when the lost are thrown into the lake of fire, they get burned up, and that’s the end. That’s the end of them. Nothing left. it’s not a pleasant way to go. I mean, if you say, well, that’s all, then I don’t mind if I go there. Well, you know, if you want to sit in a burning house while it burns down around you and you don’t think that’s a bad deal, well, then I guess you could take your chances with hell if that’s what it’s like. But we don’t know if it’s like that. All I know is that fire, generally speaking in the Bible, more often than not, refers to burning up trash, burning up garbage, burning up, you know, things that are being discarded and aren’t going to be around anymore. Another use of fire, a very common one too, but not quite as common as the other, is of purification. For example, gold and silver are often said to be purified by fire to get the dross out of them. And some people think that’s what the fire of hell is for. Some people think when people go to hell, it’s because they’ve got a lot of imperfections and iniquity in them. and that they are brought to repentance and purification through that. Now, that’s not a very common view throughout church history, but it was. There have been times when most theologians apparently believed something very much like that, and some of the leading theologians in history have held to that view, and some still do. It’s just not the most popular view today. So fire can speak of burning something up. Fire can speak of purifying something. getting rid of the dross. It also can refer to torment. It’s not used that way very often in the Bible. There are a few cases, like when Paul said it’s, you know, if a man can’t remain pure as a single man unmarried, then he should get married because it’s better to marry than to burn. Now, he’s not talking about literal burning here. He’s talking about the unpleasantness of burning with lust that cannot be expressed, which is unpleasant. Burning is very unpleasant. It can be very painful if you die in flames. But some people think that hell is a place where the main purpose of the fire is torment. But you won’t find more than two or three verses in the whole Bible saying, that emphasize that fire is a place of torment. But lots of places talk about it being where things are burned up and don’t exist anymore, or where things are purified and made better through it. So there’s a lot of different opinions among Christians, really. You might not have heard them all, but if you get into… the weeds with people who know the Bible well, you’ll find there’s people who think hell is a place where the main purpose of the fire is painfulness. But in doing so, they’re resting on a couple of verses that don’t seem to be the main idea. But there’s lots of Christians who believe that in hell, people simply are annihilated. They’re burned up to ashes. There’s nothing left of them. They don’t have any conscious existence anymore. Other people think that hell is a place where people are purified and come to repentance and are actually saved. Now, some of these ideas are very unfamiliar to many Christians who are not widely read, but all these views have been held by theologians throughout history, including some of the earliest church fathers, and including today many of the most conservative theologians. So the idea of fire… That can be a good thing or a bad thing, you know. If you’ve got a wound and it’s not healing up and you cauterize it with fire, it’s going to hurt, but it’s going to heal. And it’s going to be something that will save your life. Fire in the fireplace will keep you from freezing to death on a cold night. But if it gets out of the fireplace, it will burn your house down, and that’s not good. So fire has a lot of different applications, some of them good, some of them bad. When it comes down to it, the Bible does not tell us in, I should say, in terms that are unambiguous, exactly the functioning of the fire. Some people think it’s clear more than others do. But my own position is that I don’t know exactly what awaits a person who’s thrown into the lake of fire. Maybe they’re burned up. Maybe they’re purified. Maybe they’re tormented forever and ever. Who knows? But that’s not really something that we come to God about and say, here’s one of my bargaining chips with you. If you give up this hellfire thing, then I’ll serve you. And God says, oh, do me a great favor. You’re doing me a favor by serving me? You’re doing yourself a favor by coming into a right relationship with me. I’ve got all kinds of things, eternally good things for you. And, you know, if you’re going to decide that you’re going to come on your terms instead of mine, sorry, you don’t get past the security here. You know, you don’t get to make up your own rules with God. If a person thinks, well, I would love God if this doctrine didn’t have to be accepted.
SPEAKER 04 :
Well, feel free.
SPEAKER 09 :
You’re at liberty to believe whatever you want to. But you don’t get to make the terms for whether you have a relationship with God. God determines how that will be. So I would suggest… You might find it helpful to read a book I wrote called Why Hell, which actually talks about the three different views of hell. Some of them are not as terrifying or evil sounding to us as others are. But the truth is that hell is not what Christianity is about. Christianity is about following Jesus. And if you’ve got something better to do with your life than follow Jesus and have a good relationship with God, well, do it. Do something else. But even if there’s no hell or heaven, either one, following Jesus is the best life a person can live. And having a relationship with God is the unique privilege that only human beings can enjoy, if they will. But they do it on his terms, not their own.
SPEAKER 08 :
Well, thank you.
SPEAKER 09 :
All right. Thanks. Thanks for your call.
SPEAKER 08 :
Can I just ask you something really quick? I know people are waiting. It might be too rude. But Andre just saying, what do you think? But I think you just explained that, right, in your book.
SPEAKER 09 :
Right.
SPEAKER 01 :
Yeah, exactly. It’s one thing or another. It’s got to be like either there is like an eternal lake of fire that you’re cast into or there isn’t. Like, which one is it? Like, you know.
SPEAKER 09 :
Well, there is. There is a lake of fire. And it is referred to as eternal fire. But an eternal fire, I mean, God is an eternal fire. Our God is a consuming fire, the Bible says. He’s eternal. But that doesn’t mean that everything you throw into a fire endures as long as the fire does. I mean, if you had, let’s just say, a city dump, and there’s fires burning there all the time, and you throw everything into it, well, some things are going to burn up. Paper, cardboard, they’re going to burn up. They won’t be there anymore. bottles and tin cups and so forth, they won’t burn up and they’ll be actually purified. They’ll be sanitized. You know, if a creature goes in there that doesn’t die quickly in fire, then it’ll be tormented. All those things are possible. What I’m saying is the Bible does not make it unambiguously clear what the fate is of those who go into the fire because the Bible is not written for the interest of those who will be there. The Bible is written for the interest of those who actually want to know God and and who are hoping to have a relationship with God. And we’re told, yeah, the bad ones will be thrown into fire. What happens then after that? Well, that’s for God to know, I suppose. Maybe for us to find out. But as far as what I think, I don’t think the Bible is clear on it. Because I don’t think it’s something that the Bible thinks is important for us to know. I think everything that God thinks is important for us to know is, in fact, clear in the Bible. And that’s not one of them.
SPEAKER 08 :
Oh, that’s awesome. Thank you. And what’s the name of your book again?
SPEAKER 09 :
It’s called Why Hell. And by the way, it’s available from Amazon and places like that. You can get it on audiobook. But if you don’t want to buy the book, because I’m not selling books. I don’t sell anything. But I have two lectures at my website that you can listen to for free. And they’re called Three Views of Hell. And so you can, for free without buying a book, because I don’t, again, I don’t sell them. You can get much of the information that way. But I think reading the book is better if you can do it.
SPEAKER 08 :
Thank you. All right, Karen. I’ll definitely do that. Thank you. Great talking to you both. Bye, Andre. Bye-bye.
SPEAKER 06 :
Bye-bye.
SPEAKER 09 :
All right, we have a break coming up, but another half hour of calls we’ll be taking. You’re listening to the Narrow Path Radio Broadcast. This is the only break we take during the whole hour, and it’s to let you know that we are a listener-supported ministry. We don’t have commercial breaks because we have no sponsors. We don’t sell anything on our website or on the air or anywhere else. We just keep paying radio bills as we pay the radio stations to air the program when we have the money to do it. That money always comes from people who want to give it. So if you want to, you can write to The Narrow Path, PO Box 1730, Temecula, California, 92593, or go to the website thenarrowpath.com. I’ll be back in 30 seconds. Don’t go away.
SPEAKER 03 :
Do you find that reading the Bible leaves you scratching your head with more new questions than you had before you read it, but don’t know where to go for answers? You may be interested then in Steve Gregg’s many online lectures, downloadable without charge from our website, thenarrowpath.com. There’s no charge for anything at thenarrowpath.com. Visit us there and be amazed at all you have been missing.
SPEAKER 09 :
Welcome back to the Narrow Path radio broadcast. My name is Steve Gregg, and we’re live for another half hour taking your calls. If you want to call with a question about the Bible or the Christian faith or want to disagree with the host, I’d be very happy to talk to you. The number is 844- 844-484-5737. I’m looking at a full switchboard right now, but don’t think that eliminates your possibility of getting through. If you call a little later, some of these lines will be opening up. Again, the number is 844-484-5737. And we were talking to Karen and Andre from British Columbia just before the break. And, you know, Andre was having a little problems. He’s not a Christian, but he tends to believe there’s a God that has problems with the traditional view of hell being a place of eternal conscious torment. And I’ll just say this, Andre, many Christians do have problems with that. And part of it is because it doesn’t seem to jive with the teaching of the Bible that God is love. And it’s awfully hard to understand how a God of love would torment people forever and ever when he doesn’t have to. see some Christians don’t think this through very much and they think that tormenting people forever and ever it’s not really something God has a choice about because we have free will but obviously though we have free will and we can reject salvation it doesn’t mean that he has to torment people forever and ever he could do something else like annihilate them or you know something else so one thing I would say is that the thing I know better than I know my own mind I think is that God is perfect, that what he says is true. If the Bible says he is love, then that’s what I take him to be. He is love. Now, if he is love, then everything else about him must conform to that fact. But it doesn’t have to conform to my opinion of what love looks like, because human beings have a whole range of ideas about what love is like. I mean, many people who are totally lustful and selfish think of themselves as being in love. There are people who say they would not discipline their children because they love them too much. I’ve heard those things, and yet that’s not loving at all. You see, what is loving is what is best for all parties. And so God will do what is best for all parties. Now, that doesn’t tell me which of the various views of hell is the correct one. It does certainly raise questions about whether eternal conscious torment could be the correct one, if God is a God of love, because we can’t think of any way that solves any problems. We can’t think of anyone, no one’s redeemed out of it, no one is relieved from it. It just doesn’t seem agreeable to love. But if it turned out that that’s what it was, we’d have to say, well, God, who knows a lot more than I do about what’s best for all, does the very thing that’s best for all. And I’m actually not competent to sit in judgment of God and say, well, God, you can’t do that because it’s not loving and you have to be loving. Well, it’s not so much that he has to be loving. He is loving. And he always is loving. But loving people sometimes have to deal harshly with, for example, a judge on a bench may be a very kind and merciful man. and love his children and love his community. And yet, as he sits on the bench, he may have to sentence a criminal to a harsh penalty, even if he wished he didn’t have to. That’s what judges have to do. So we just have to decide, who am I going to trust, me or God? And anyone who says, well, I’ll trust God only when he has answered my questions, is saying, I trust the validity of my objections more than I trust God and his character, which is a position you’re allowed to take. Maybe most people will take that position until they die, but it won’t be well for them when they die because they will have taken the wrong position. There’s no reason in the world why a rational person couldn’t say, you know, my own judgment about things has been wrong about a lot of stuff. I’ve made a lot of mistakes over my lifetime. I don’t know that I would want to say that my judgment about this is more trustworthy than God. But it’s good to ask questions like that, because only when you ask questions do you ever get any closer to getting any answers. I appreciate the call. We’re going to talk next to, it looks like it’s Robert in Sacramento, California. Robert, welcome to The Narrow Path. Thanks for calling.
SPEAKER 06 :
Hey, Steve. How are you doing?
SPEAKER 09 :
Good.
SPEAKER 06 :
My question is about when exactly did the apostles get the Holy Spirit. In John 20, 22, it says he breathed into them and said, received the Holy Spirit. Right. In Acts 1 and 5, I guess that was the day of Pentecost. So I’m only confused. When did they actually receive the Holy Spirit?
SPEAKER 09 :
Well, they received the Holy Spirit, I believe, when Jesus breathed on them. This was the night of his resurrection. He was raised Sunday morning, and that evening he met with the disciples in the upper room, and he breathed on them, as you said, in John 20, 22. He breathed on them and said, receive the Holy Spirit. And I believe they did. I mean, it doesn’t make any sense for him to breathe on them with the action unless he’s conferring the Holy Spirit to them at that time. Now, it’s true that it was some 50 days later that the Holy Spirit came down upon the whole church in the upper room, the 120 there. And that would be when the other Christians received the Holy Spirit. But I think even then, something new happened with the apostles. Hang on. Yes, sir. Okay. Go ahead. Okay. I believe that when every person who becomes a Christian, if they are regenerated, if they’re born again, they receive the Holy Spirit, just like the apostles did when Jesus breathed on them and said, receive the Holy Spirit. The Bible says if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, they don’t belong to him. So that is, they’re not a Christian. John said in 1 John 3 and again in chapter 4, He said that we know that he abides in us and we abide in him because he’s given us his spirit. I think the verse in 1 John 4 is verse 13, and I think in verse 3 it’s the last verse of that chapter. I don’t remember what verse number that is. So 1 John 3, the last verse in the chapter, and 1 John 4, I think it’s verse 13. He says we know that we are Christians because of the spirit he’s given us or because he’s given us his spirit. So possessing the Holy Spirit is simply… being saved, is having been born of the Spirit, as Jesus called it. Now, Jesus said, however, he also wanted them to remain in Jerusalem until they received power from on high. And the way he put it, even though they were, I believe the disciples, the apostles were regenerated. I think they were born again when he breathed on them and said, receive the Holy Spirit. But I think that they still had another measurement. of experience with the Holy Spirit that had not come upon anybody yet, and that would be on Pentecost. And so he told them in Acts 1, in verse 5, he said, you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit not many days from now. In verse 8, he said, you will receive power when the Holy Spirit comes upon you. So the power of God… came upon them when the Holy Spirit came upon them. Now, let me just say something about this word, upon, because it’s a different word than in. Jesus, in fact, told the disciples that the Spirit would be in them, and then he breathed on them, and the Holy Spirit was in them, I believe. But then he said, now you have to wait for the Spirit to come upon you. Well, what’s that mean? How’s that different? Well, in the Old Testament… When the Spirit came upon somebody, that person became supernaturally enabled to do something that could not be humanly done. Even when Samson, the Spirit came upon him and he could do mighty deeds. He didn’t do any muscular deeds with muscles alone. It was when the Spirit came upon him that he tore the jaws off of a lion with his bare hands, that he did these other things. The Spirit came upon him and it empowered him. the judges of Israel, Gideon and people like that, the spirit came upon them and enabled them to be military heroes who had not been military men at all. And most commonly in Scripture, when the Holy Spirit came upon a person, they often became a prophet. That was one of the most common things about prophets, that they received the power to prophesy, a gift to the Holy Spirit. Now, what I’m saying is, that’s what the term, the Holy Spirit coming upon a person, meant in the Old Testament. And Jesus, no doubt, used the same language when he said, the Holy Spirit will come upon you, and you’ll receive power when the Holy Spirit comes upon you. Now, the Holy Spirit had already come in them. And I believe there are many Christians, and I was one of them for many years, who had been born again. I had the spirit, as all Christians do. But I would never describe my Christian life in those years as empowered or anointed or gifted. I was just a believer, kind of cruising through life, doing my best to be a Christian, but certainly nothing that gave much evidence of supernatural life there. in me, maybe a little bit. But when I got baptized in the Spirit, which is what Jesus called it when the Spirit came upon the disciples in Acts chapter 1, that was different. The gifts of the Spirit are given then. The anointing of the Holy Spirit makes it so that your activities have more of a spiritual impact, a power. And there’s all kinds of different gifts of the Holy Spirit that Paul talks about, for example. And these, I believe, come upon a person Well, the Spirit comes upon the person. So when did the apostles receive the Spirit? They received the Spirit in them, just like every Christian does at conversion, when Jesus breathed on them. They received the Spirit upon them, empowering them, at Pentecost. And I think that many Christians, modern Christians, receive both of those experiences at the same time. I’ve known people who, when they got converted and the Spirit came in them, he also came upon them in power. But I’ve also known people, especially people maybe who were raised Christian or were converted through the testimonies of people who were raised Christian who have never had that power. that they might be born again and have the Holy Spirit in them, but have not yet been baptized in the Spirit. The Spirit has not come upon them. You would never describe their Christian life as empowered or their gifts, having the power of God bringing effects on the people in their circle through them. So I think there’s two aspects, and a person may receive both of them at conversion, but if they don’t, they receive at least the first one at conversion. They have the Spirit come in them and regenerate them. But there is such a thing even in the book of Acts of people who were converted, and then later the Spirit came upon them, and they were empowered then. So that distinction is not always or not frequently made, so a lot of Christians are really not aware of it at all.
SPEAKER 06 :
Thank you, sir.
SPEAKER 09 :
All right, Robert. Thank you. Okay, let’s talk to Wendell from Fort Wayne, Indiana. Hi, Wendell.
SPEAKER 05 :
Welcome. The question about the Olivet Discourse, this really regards a friend of mine. He’s an Emanuel Jesus guy.
SPEAKER 09 :
What does that mean? I’m not familiar with the Emanuel Jesus movement.
SPEAKER 05 :
It means the Old Testament says his name will be Emmanuel, and then the New Testament says calling Jesus. So it says there’s something wrong there.
SPEAKER 09 :
Why is there something wrong with that?
SPEAKER 05 :
Well, because Jesus isn’t the name Emmanuel.
SPEAKER 09 :
Well, his name isn’t Wonderful Counselor of the Mighty God or the Everlasting Father either, but that’s what he’s called in Isaiah 9. The same book that says his name shall be called Emmanuel in Isaiah 7, 14, two chapters later says his name shall be called Wonderful Counselor, the Mighty God, the Everlasting Father, the Prince of Peace. Those aren’t even proper names. But so when the Bible says his name will be called, that’s an idiom. But your friend doesn’t seem to know much about the Bible, obviously. But what’s his problem with the Olivet Discourse?
SPEAKER 05 :
Well, it says, so when you see standing in the holy place the abomination that causes desolation, this is, you know, Matthew 24, 15. Spoken of through the prophet Daniel, let the reader understand. Then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. So he’s saying that has to mean In the holy place, that has to mean the holy of holies in the temple. And if that’s what it means, and that’s what it has to mean, then that’s too late. It’s too late to flee out of Judea. You know, by the time the Romans got in there, the morning was too late.
SPEAKER 09 :
Okay, so what’s his point?
SPEAKER 05 :
Well, he’s saying…
SPEAKER 09 :
that jesus was wrong i mean you know he uh he oh like like jesus oh jesus was not smart enough to figure that same thing out right so if indeed the romans coming into the holy place of the temple means it’s too late to flee and your friend figured that out all by himself jesus wasn’t smart enough to figure that out so he he just contradicted himself because he’s just so stupid right
SPEAKER 05 :
Right, right.
SPEAKER 09 :
Yeah, I think your friend’s the stupid one. Listen, to say in the holy place doesn’t have to mean in the holy place of the temple. Jerusalem is a holy place. In Mark’s parallel, what Jesus says in the same statement in Mark, which is Mark 13, 14, when you see the abomination of desolation spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing where it ought not, let the reader understand, then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. So it’s the same statement, but he says, standing where it ought not. Now, Luke says, in Luke 21, 20, it’s the parallel, it says, when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, know that its desolation is near, then you who are in Judea flee to the mountains. So, So the different ways. Whatever Jesus said had to fit all the statements. So Mark says the abomination of desolation is standing where it ought not. It’s not very specific, but it shouldn’t be there. Luke says it’s when the armies are coming to encompass Jerusalem. Okay, so they’re outside the city then. He says, then flee. Okay, so that’s the abomination of desolation, according to Luke 20, 21. Excuse me, 21, 20. And then Matthew says, standing in the holy place. Well, I suppose the holy place, if it’s not otherwise designated, could be the holy place in the temple. However, since Luke says this is when the armies are surrounding Jerusalem, I would say Jerusalem itself must be considered the holy place, and that’s where they are. But the truth is that actually the disciples fled before the Romans even got to Jerusalem. We know this because Eusebius tells us that before the war started, way back in 66 A.D., The Christians in Jerusalem fled because a message from the Holy Spirit given by prophetic men told them to flee, and they did. So this is before the war even started in 66 A.D., so they were gone long before. The Romans came against Jerusalem, but they had come against Israel. They were coming against Israel, and Israel was the holy place. So the holy place, you know, depending on which version you read, can refer to a number of possible things. But to say that it’s talking about the holy place of the temple, which, as your friend so brilliantly figured out, if the Romans are already in the temple, it’s too late for the Christians to flee from the city. Well, then that must not be what it meant. And when we see Luke’s version, especially in Luke 21, it’s very clear that he’s talking about Israel, or the larger, not in the temple, but the nation or the city of Jerusalem at the very least. But the Christians did flee before the Romans even had invaded Israel, but they were coming. Your friend, if he thinks that there’s a contradiction between Jesus being Emmanuel and being Jesus… He’s not exactly the brightest bulb, and so I’m not going to really trust his logic over that of Jesus. It seems to me that Jesus would understand these things probably better than he would. At least that would be my opinion. If I was a betting man, I’d bet on Jesus.
SPEAKER 05 :
Well, thank you.
SPEAKER 09 :
All right, Wendell. Thanks for your call. Let’s see. Kathy in Newport Beach, California. Hi, Kathy.
SPEAKER 07 :
Hi, Steve. Thank you for taking my call. Yeah, I’m wondering if I could ask three questions.
SPEAKER 09 :
Well, we can see how long it takes.
SPEAKER 07 :
Okay. I know that Jesus died for us, and is he okay with just a few that saved?
SPEAKER 09 :
Is he a Savior? No, I don’t think so. I don’t think so. No, the Bible teaches that the number of saved will be too numerous to number. You know, in Revelation chapter 7, after you read about the 144,000, it talks about the multitude which no one could number. from every nation, kingdom, and tongue, and people, and so forth, that were in heaven worshiping Christ. So, obviously, it’s an innumerably large number that will be saved. So, no, I don’t think he’d be at all satisfied with few.
SPEAKER 07 :
Okay. And how to have joy, and what is the burnt offering?
SPEAKER 09 :
How do you have joy? Okay.
SPEAKER 07 :
Yes. How do I have joy if I see so many people around me without salvation? How do I have joy?
SPEAKER 09 :
How do you have joy? Well, I mean, joy is not the same thing as feeling happy or giddy or lighthearted, necessarily. Uh, Jesus was not lighthearted much. If he ever was, I don’t know if he ever was lighthearted, but he never was just, you know, cracking jokes and, you know, you know, playing for the laugh and things like that. Uh, yet when he said that he was giving his disciples joy, he’s telling them what he’s telling us that their joy might be full. He obviously, obviously was speaking of joy as something, uh, somewhat deeper than people might think. Uh, In 1 Peter 1, it says we rejoice with joy unspeakable or inexpressible joy and full of glory. Now, this is talking about something in our spirit, in our heart. It might not even be able to be expressed. And that’s something that we have to understand, that when the Bible talks about having peace or having joy or even having love, We are shallow folks who typically think of the emotions only. If you have emotions of joy, it’s probably because something you like just happened. Then as soon as something is happening that you don’t like, you don’t have those emotions anymore. Same thing with peace. If you have the emotion of peace, it’s probably because nothing is disturbing your tranquility. But as soon as something does disturb your tranquility, then the emotion of peace might not be there anymore. And the same thing with love. You know, if somebody is lovely, you feel love for them. If people are obnoxious, you don’t feel love for them. But these are not, in the Bible, considered to be primarily emotions. Emotions are the most fleeting things. Emotions are the most shallow part of our lives because they can change in a few minutes. You know, I can be delighted sometimes. about something, and then I get a phone call that someone I love was in an accident, and suddenly I’m not delighted at that moment. My emotions can come and go up and down. Same thing with peace. Same thing with love. But those are emotions. We’re not called to have our character defined by our emotions. And so when the Bible talks about joy, it’s talking about the deep satisfaction and contentment that most people do not have. but which a Christian can have. And we’re told to rejoice in it. To rejoice means to take joy, to choose to be happy. In fact, in Philippians, Paul says, Rejoice in the Lord always. And again, I say rejoice. Jesus said when you’re persecuted, when they hate you and cast out your name as evil, rejoice, he said. That means be joyful about that. Now, you can’t be happy about it in the shallow level. Let’s just say you’re in a prison, hanging on a wall, and they give you bread and water every day, and then they beat you every afternoon, and you don’t get any rest. You can’t really be happy about that in the sense that people usually think of happiness. Your emotions are not likely to be giddy or happy, but But you can inside experience what the Bible calls the fruit of the Holy Spirit. Now, the fruit of the Spirit includes love, joy, peace, some of the things I mentioned earlier. But they are not the emotions of those things. Everyone has emotions, whether they’re the Holy Spirit or not. The Holy Spirit gives these things. at times when people ordinarily would not have them. That is when the circumstances do not bring it about. Paul and Silas were beaten with their backs laid open with whips or rods, and they were in stocks in a third-world jail, a pretty horrible place. Probably rats and cockroaches run all around them and damp and dark. And they were in the middle of the night. They were just singing praises to God. They were rejoicing in God. Now, I think that how do you have joy? Well, I guess what you have to do, if you’re thinking of the emotion of joy, you may not always be able to have that emotion of joy. It’s not always guaranteed. But you can have that inward, deep, spiritual joy, which makes you peaceful, which makes you contented, or which comes from being those things. And you can have that in all circumstances. Now, that doesn’t mean you never cry, you know. Paul said we need to weep with those who weep and rejoice with those who rejoice. That’s simply being sympathetic. But I can be weeping with those who weep and still be happy that I know God. I can rejoice in the Lord. which just means that I’m not rejoicing in circumstances. I’m rejoicing in something else that goes deeper than my circumstances. I’m rejoicing in my privileges of my knowing God. And actually, God draws near in times of suffering. The Bible says he’s near to the brokenhearted. So I’ve never been in prison myself, but I’ve known Christians who were thrown in prison for their faith. and tortured and put in solitary confinement. One of them, Richard Wurmbrandt, was in solitary confinement for three years and tortured in prison for 14 years. And he said the Lord was so near that he often just sang and danced in his cell. He felt, you know, the nearness of God. Now, how do you have joy? Well, I guess in that case, it’s focusing on something different than what isn’t joyful. If you’re in pain, that doesn’t generally, it’s not conducive to being happy. If you’re poor, that’s not itself conducive to being happy. But, you know, Jesus said, blessed are you poor. Blessed means happy. Being grateful, having gratitude. I think the main factor is, in choosing to be joyful is in choosing to be grateful. If you’re grateful, you experience contentment and joy. Now, you can be grateful even when there’s things that you’re not very grateful for. Like I said, if you’re in pain, you’re probably not grateful for that pain, but you can be grateful that you have God, and you can actually be thankful for all kinds of things that you do have in the natural. I uh you know things like that maybe your children are safe i mean there’s lots of things that god has blessed us with that we could focus on at times when other things that we could wrongly focus on would be detrimental to our happiness anyway it’s a big subject and uh I’m sorry I don’t have more time because the music is telling me I have to be off the air in 20 seconds. So I’m sorry we can’t go further on that. And my sorrow to everyone else who’s waiting because our lines are full. You’ve been listening to The Narrow Path radio broadcast. We are listener supported. If you’d like to help us out, you can go to our website, thenarrowpath.com. That’ll give an address where you can write or you can just donate online if you want at thenarrowpath.com. Thanks for joining us.
