2024.12.18 – Exploring Biblical Interpretations of the Gates of Hades

SPEAKER 1 : 0:01

Thank you.

SPEAKER 08 : 0:33

Good afternoon and welcome to the Narrow Path radio broadcast. My name is Steve Gregg, and we're live for an hour each weekday afternoon, taking your calls. I do seem to have something in my throat, making my voice a little hoarse, but that'll probably have to just be talked out. I haven't been talking much today. Sometimes my morning voice when I wake up stays with me until showtime because I don't do very much talking before then. Anyway, if you'd like to be on the program, if you have questions about the program, The Bible, about Christianity, about Christian history or doctrine or ethics or apologetics, any of that stuff. If you differ from the host on something and want a balanced comment, we welcome your calls today. The number to call is 844-484-5737. That's 844-484-5737. And we'll get right to the calls right now and talk to Michael Culling from Denver, Colorado. Michael, welcome to The Narrow Path. Thanks for calling.

SPEAKER 10 : 1:42

Hi, Steve. Thank you so much for taking my call. And I just had a quick kind of question and I'll Take my answer off the air. So I was actually thinking about this this past weekend about the Palisades fire where, you know, initially there was that big gathering of cars when they were trying to escape and it kind of. almost looked like an apocalyptic gathering almost, and where everyone got out and looked at the sky and then had to run for their lives, basically. I was wondering if there's anything comparable in Scripture that kind of describes, you know, say an apocalyptic scene where, you know, people essentially have to have impending doom and have to run for their life or anything in Revelation that is comparable to that.

SPEAKER 08 : 2:31

Well, there's a lot of disasters, obviously, described in Revelation, most of them probably in symbolic form, but some of them maybe have some resemblance to the literal phenomena. The thing is, though, a fire, a big fire, is nothing new in history. I mean, there was a huge fire that burned most of Rome back in 64 AD, which most people believe that Nero himself set on fire, but In the old days, before they had firefighting technology, you know, any forest fire would just have to burn, you know, until it burned out. And that must have meant there were lots of fires like that, lots of sky darkened with smoke and things like that, just like what people saw if they were in the midst of the L.A. fires. There's no reason to believe that any given fire would be connected to to a given vision of fire in the apocalypse, unless, of course, that fire is somehow unique or belonging to a particular period focused on in the apocalypse. But I personally, of course, it was a terrible disaster for so many people. But I don't see it as connected to any prophecy in particular. By the way, fire and smoke are extremely common images of judgment in the Bible. And so you're going to find a lot of references in the Old and the New Testament to fire burning up cities, burning up their gates, the smoke darkening the sky. Lots and lots of those kinds of references are found in the Bible, including the book of Revelation. But Honestly, those kinds of things have also been extremely common historically. There's been a lot of those. So, you know, the idea of attaching any particular passage which mentions fire to any particular event of such fire would seem to be, to my mind, arbitrary. And so my own thought is that the book of Revelation is not describing our times. Most people do seem to think that the book is discussing end times. My view is that it's mainly focused on the great Holocaust and the burning of the city of Jerusalem in the first century by the Romans. But obviously there's different views on that. But even if I held to the view that Revelation is talking about the end times, I still wouldn't have a particular reason. to look at any given fire in any one place and say, oh, well, Revelation said there's going to be a fiery judgment. Well, yeah, but there's been thousands of those throughout history, and I don't know that there's anything that would point distinctly to any modern fire as having a connection to any prophecy about fire. That's my general approach to Revelation, is that I don't look at things that are happening today and say, oh, those definitely were predicted in the book of Revelation, partly because I think Revelation is about a different time period, but also, even if it were about this time period, the things that people point to, you know, earthquakes, famines, you know, the moon turning to blood and things like that, those things have happened throughout history lots of times. And therefore, it would be rather, to my mind, irresponsible to say, well, that's definitely what the book of Revelation is talking about. I would also say that I don't feel it's an extremely healthy obsession that many Christians do have of trying to identify signs of the times in our own time. Again, Christians of every era over the past 2,000 years. have come to the conclusion, wrongly, that they were living in the end times. And, of course, they weren't. In fact, there were books, many books, pointing to the signs of the times back in the early 70s during the Jesus movement. My ministry began around 1970, including, most famously, Hal Lindsey's book, The Late Great Planet Earth, and many other copycat books that came out at the same time. So that many people were saying, oh, this is it. These things you can find, you know, wars, rumors of wars, famines, earthquakes all over the place. This is definitely what the Bible is talking about. But it wasn't. We're talking about something now 55 years ago. So, you know, that wasn't the time. So, you know, I think anyone who's lived as long as I have and seen this kind of false alarm and also studied the Bible enough to know that these are very common and in many cases symbolic descriptions of God's judgment. And when they are not symbolic, when they're literal, they are essentially about kingdoms that have fallen long ago and were burned. Babylon and, you know, Assyria and those kinds of kingdoms, Edom. And Moab, you know, these judgments that come upon them are often described in terms of fiery judgment, which either is referring to literal fire in some cases or other times simply the judgment of God. The wrath of God is referred to as fire that burns. So it's got the language of that. So I'm not – yeah, I don't look at the L.A. fires, even though they came relatively close to where I live. I don't see them as something the Bible predicted. And, you know, now if the whole country burned up, I would say, well, that seems significant, though I still wouldn't be able to attach it to any particular prophecy. But it is, of course, the second largest city in America, the most powerful country in the world. You'd think that its burning would be significant, and I'm sure it is, although not all of L.A. burned up, actually. My wife and I were in Los Angeles during the Palisades fires on other business, and we didn't even see the smoke. So much of L.A. was totally untouched. Anyway, I appreciate your concern, but in terms of biblical phone and prophecy, I don't see any connection with the fires that have happened recently in California. I appreciate your call, though. Let's see. Gary from Holly, Michigan. Welcome to The Narrow Path.

SPEAKER 03 : 8:56

Yes, Steve, thanks for your program. I'm thankful you're all right there in California. You probably have a lot of friends here in Los Angeles. Did you see where President Trump's trying to help them?

SPEAKER 08 : 9:07

Yes, I did. I did see that, yeah.

SPEAKER 03 : 9:10

Well, that's awesome what he's doing there.

SPEAKER 08 : 9:12

Yeah, hopefully he can have more impact than the mayor.

SPEAKER 03 : 9:15

Then my third question today is, have you ever read Haley's handbook?

SPEAKER 08 : 9:20

Yes.

SPEAKER 03 : 9:21

Okay, according to Mr. Haley, he said there's several that wrote about Jesus. besides Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John. Have you checked it out to see if you can find any of those other writings?

SPEAKER 08 : 9:32

I'm familiar, I think, with everything that's available out there that was not in the Gospels. Now, except for the fact that I haven't read the Gnostic Gospels, but they weren't written at the same time. They were written in the 2nd and 3rd century, much too late to be written by the people who they claimed to be written by. But, yes, Suetonius and Tacitus, the Roman historians.

SPEAKER 03 : 9:51

There were many disciples. Can you find these books in the library or on the Internet?

SPEAKER 08 : 9:56

They're available, yeah. But what do you mean there's many disciples? You mean disciples who wrote the story of Jesus?

SPEAKER 03 : 10:02

Well, according to Haley's handbook, there's other disciples that wrote about Jesus, and it's not in the Word of God.

SPEAKER 08 : 10:09

But we don't have their works. You know, Luke tells us that he had read works of other disciples who had written the life of Jesus. So Luke, back in, you know, 60 A.D., had access to other people's writings about the life of Jesus. Those might have included Mark and Matthew. So it's possible that he's referring to them. But he does talk about many have done so. But he doesn't tell us who he's referring to. Now, as far as surviving works, the church fathers in the second century didn't know of any authentic Gospels written by disciples except for the four that we have in our Bible. They knew of many false Gospels. The Gospels that claim to be written by Thomas and by Judas and by Philip and by some of the other apostles, Peter, all those, the Gospels, those have the names of apostles on them. But the early church knew very well those were written after the death of those people by forgers, and they were Gnostic in their theology. So they were propaganda. It's as if the Jehovah's Witnesses had written their own versions of the Gospels and tried to pass them off as real. They had their own theology they wanted to promote, but they claimed to be people that they weren't. So they obviously were dishonest. Outside of other Gospels, The Roman historian Suetonius and Tacitus did make passing reference to Jesus or things related to the Gospels. Josephus also did, and he's a Jewish historian who is not a Christian. There are not a lot of writings from the first century that mention Jesus, but there are some, and enough of them from pagan sources, that we know that the Gospels didn't invent the character. But the Gospels that we have are the only real authoritative... biographies of Jesus, these other pagan works, they mention Jesus as a character who is, for example, they mention he was crucified by Pontius Pilate, which would be all that the Romans would care to know about him, but they mention it, and so does the Bible. Josephus mentions the ministry of John the Baptist and also the death of Jesus' brother, James, and yet he doesn't recognize Jesus as the Messiah, but he does confirm the existence of these people. So we have offhand confirmations of the existence of Jesus and some of these other people that are mentioned in the Bible from pagan sources who knew of them. But only the Bible really provides anything like biographical material. Now, I haven't read Haley's Handbook since the 1970s. In fact, there was a time when I was so poor that the only book besides the Bible I owned was a Haley's Bible Handbook, which someone had given me. and Strong's Concordance. And for a few years, those are the only books I had as reference books to teach. But that was in the early 70s. I have it on my shelf, but I haven't opened Haley Sandberg for, you know, 40 years or more. So I can't remember what he mentioned about other gospel writers, but I've read many books, I mean, scholarly books that mention these other places. So, you know, quite apart from what Haley said, I'm aware of these things. All right. Gary? Oh, Gary's gone. He hung up. Okay. Hope that helps. Emmanuel from Laredo, Texas. Welcome to The Narrow Path. Hi, Emmanuel.

SPEAKER 02 : 13:44

Hi, Steve. Thanks for taking my call. I got a question. Can we open spiritual doors and give to the devil permission to attack our lives? For example, if we watch movies or engage in any Malignant spiritual interaction, you know, symbols or something like that. That is possible or not.

SPEAKER 08 : 14:06

So you're saying, can we open up portals for Satan in our own spiritual life through things we do?

SPEAKER 02 : 14:15

Yeah, correct. If we engage in some... Yes, I believe so.

SPEAKER 08 : 14:19

I believe so. In fact, it specifically says in Ephesians chapter 4, Do not give place to the devil. Now, that's in connection with, he says in Ephesians 4, 26, be angry and do not sin. Do not let the sun go down on your wrath, nor give place to the devil. That's verse 27, 26 and 27. So, Paul indicates that we need to be careful not to give place to the devil. And I believe by that he means in our own lives. Now, there is a possibility that that he means not to give the devil a foothold in the Christian community, because if we remain angry at people, it can cause, you know, grudges and bitterness and so forth, which compromises the Christian community. And that is a possible way of understanding it also. But Paul tells the Corinthians also, in 2 Corinthians 2, he says in verse 10 and 11, Now, whom you forgive anything, I also forgive. For if indeed I have forgiven anything, I have forgiven that one for your sakes in the presence of Christ, lest Satan should take advantage of us. For we are not ignorant of his devices. That's 2 Corinthians 2, verses 10 and 11. So Paul says that forgiveness, or perhaps unforgiveness, we know the devil's devices enough to know that he can use that. He can get advantage over us. And, of course, in Ephesians, I mentioned before, staying angry at someone. Now, both of these things have to do with forgiveness. not maintaining our relationships in the Christian community properly, staying angry, not forgiving someone. We are commanded to forgive people. And if we don't do that, we may open some kind of a door to Satan. But it's not clear whether Paul means that that is a door that's opening to Satan to come in and disrupt the church and its testimony through the conflicts between parties. I know the devil is a disruptor in that sense. He tries to turn Christians against each other. You know, when an evil spirit came on Saul, it turned him against David, who previous to that was a friend and hero of Saul's. So, I mean, the devil does like to disrupt relationships. But we can also take that to be that we're giving the devil an advantage over us individually, too, and giving place to the devil. I don't think we could rule out either of those interpretations. In fact, I think one would imply the other. So... Yeah, I think there are things we can do that would give place to the devil. I specifically think that anyone who gets involved in the occult, goes to seances, gets involved in magic and sorcery and things like that, involvement in the occult would appear to open portals for demons to get advantage over people. I say that partly because, I mean, the Bible warns very strongly against getting involved in those things and says that these are the things that demon worshipers do. And, you know, it doesn't specifically say that by doing these things the demons will come into you, but there's often in Scripture a connection. between somebody who has this evil spirit and they're having clairvoyant powers or occult powers, like the Witch of Endor or the woman, the slave girl in Philippi who spoke by the power of demons, but she was also able to tell fortunes. There's a connection between occult things and demons, and it would appear that getting involved in the occult can compromise your own spiritual defenses to the point where you can become, can come under their power, including and up to and including being demon-possessed. There are famous cases. I mean, the story, the movie The Exorcist, which came out back in, what, the 60s, I guess, or 70s, it's based on a true story. And I've read the true story from the priests who were involved in the exorcism. And the boy, it was a boy in the true story. It was a girl in the movie. But the boy was a normal Lutheran boy, actually, not a Catholic. He was a Lutheran boy in a Lutheran family. He was 14 years old, and he and his grandmother got involved in the occult. I forget if it was tarot cards or Ouija boards, something like that. Got involved just for fun. And then these demons took possession of him, and he had horrible experiences until he was, in fact, delivered. I've read numerous testimonials of that kind of thing, where people seemingly, through involvement in the occult, have given place to the devil. So that would be something to be aware of. The truth is we're in a warfare. The world we live in as Christians is a war zone. It's a spiritual war zone. We have the Holy Spirit. We have angels. We have our own armor. and weapons of our warfare that are spiritual, but the demons are up there and resisting too. And Paul says we shouldn't be, we can't be ignorant of his devices because otherwise he'll get advantage over us. So, yeah, I mean, if you say, well, would watching certain television shows give place to the devil? Well, the Bible doesn't mention television shows because they didn't have television back then, but I would say you ought to be mindful of anything you watch. You know, David said, I think it was in Psalm 111, he said, I will place no evil thing before my eyes. And, you know, in Deuteronomy, God told the Jews not to bring any abomination into their house. Now, I don't think a TV in itself is an abomination, but I think some things that you could bring into your house through it are abominations. I remember David Wilkerson had a book years ago called, I think it was called The Vision, and One of the chapters was about television, and he was talking about how, you know, the sodomites pretty much are running Hollywood to a very large degree. And he said, you know, when the sodomites tried to get into Lot's house, we don't think of Lot as a very righteous man. We see him as a very compromised man. But at least he kept the sodomites outside the house. He said many Christians, through bringing TV into their house, they brought the sodomites into their house. Which is an interesting note. Now, I don't think that by having a TV or bringing demons into your house, but there certainly are lots of things you could watch on TV that could compromise your spiritual mind and your spiritual purity. And I think people need to be mindful of that. We need to take every thought captive. And you can't take every thought captive if you're not really noticing anything. the things you're allowing yourself to think about and be exposed to. This is a war zone. I mean, we sometimes think it's a casual walk in the woods, but it's, I mean, the devil is seeking to get advantage. So I would just say every Christian needs to be mindful of what things they engage in, whether it's their cult or whether it's, entertainment that has a similar effect on the mind, or unforgiveness and anger left overnight without repentance. There's lots of things that perhaps may give place to the devil, and I think Christians need to be careful not to compromise on that. So the answer is yes.

SPEAKER 02 : 21:51

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, because I'm trying to be careful what my kids see in the TV.

SPEAKER 08 : 21:56

That's a very good idea. When I was raising my kids, we didn't have a TV, but we did have a – back then they had videotapes, so we had a VCR. And we'd have a very limited number of videotapes we would allow our kids to see. We didn't want them to be totally unaware of the technology, but we also had to guard their minds. And most people who were homeschooling, as we were, did the same. It's a good idea. You can only protect them once in their childhood. It's like you have to win every battle raising your kids against the devil. The devil's reaching out to get them from every side. You've got to win every battle. The devil only has to really win one. If he gets a hold of your kids, they usually stay held for a long time unless someone does some serious spiritual warfare effectively. Anyway, yeah, guard your children's purity. They only have it once.

SPEAKER 02 : 22:52

Yeah, so very quickly, Steve, that you are planning some translation in Spanish for your books or your apps because, you know, I'm just watching your content here, but I'm trying to translate the family. So I wonder if there's some access in the Spanish version or something like that.

SPEAKER 08 : 23:10

There is. There is a Spanish version of the first Empire of the Risen Sun book, which I think is the most important book that I've written. So it's published in Spanish. If you go to Amazon, let me see here. I cannot speak Spanish. I can't even pronounce the title of my own book. It's Imperio del Hijo. Yeah, I know. It's called... Resucitado or something like that.

SPEAKER 02 : 23:41

I know. I got it. Yeah.

SPEAKER 08 : 23:42

Okay. Yeah, if you look it up at Amazon, you'll find it's in Spanish there, and it's... I think it's a good translation. It's gone through a lot of proofreaders, Spanish-speaking proofreaders, who approved it to be released. And the second book, I think, is being translated to Spanish right now by a missionary organization in Costa Rica. I think it is somewhere down in Latin America. So they asked if they could translate. I gave them permission. I don't know how they're doing on the project. But the first one, is definitely available now at Amazon.

SPEAKER 02 : 24:18

Yeah, it's a great book, and I'm planning to give to my mom this book in Spanish version, so it's amazing. That's wonderful. Thank you so much, Steve. I really appreciate it.

SPEAKER 08 : 24:29

Great talking to you, Emmanuel. Thanks for calling.

SPEAKER 02 : 24:32

God bless you.

SPEAKER 08 : 24:33

You too. Bye now. Okay, let's see here. Our next caller is going to be Thomas from Phoenix, Arizona. I'm looking at the clock here, and I think we're going to have to take him after the break. At the bottom of the hour, by the way, we have other calls waiting, too, but there's one line open right now. If you want to get on, we have another half hour coming up. That line just got filled. If you want to take down this number and call it randomly over the next half hour, you may get in because lines do keep opening up and then filling up. But the number to be on the air here is 844-484-5737. And I will say that right now it looks like all the lines are full. So I'm just going to let you know that The Narrow Path is a listener-supported ministry. You can listen every day and you'll never hear a commercial because there's nothing to sell. We don't sell anything and we don't let other people sell stuff here. This is simply... By the way, if you do hear a commercial, then that's not supposed to be happening. We bought the time so that we won't have to have commercials. And if a station is playing commercials, that is wrong. They're stealing from us. So just let them know to stop doing that if they play commercials during our program. The Narrow Path is listener supported. If you'd like to write to us, the address is The Narrow Path, P.O. Box 1730, Temecula, California, 92593. That address again is The Narrow Path, P.O. Box 1730, Temecula, California, 92593. And you can also donate from the website. Now, the website's loaded with resources, and they're all free. When I say resources, I'm talking mostly about MP3 audio files of over 1,000 lectures on biblical topics, including verse-by-verse through the whole Bible. And other stuff you can download. Everything can be downloaded for free. You can even listen to my audio books for free. There. That's at thenarrowpath.com. Thenarrowpath.com. Listen, we're going to take a break and we'll be back for another half hour. I'll be back in 30 seconds. So don't go away.

SPEAKER 01 : 26:54

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SPEAKER 08 : 27:41

Welcome back to the Narrow Path Radio Podcast. My name is Steve Gregg, and we're live for another half hour taking your calls. Right now our lines are full. I'm not going to give out the phone number again, but some of you have it on your speak dial already, and you can call any time during this half hour. But the lines being full, I don't think there's any reason to give out the number because it may take the whole half hour to talk to all these people. I do need to make this announcement, though I need to start making it now, although it's only the end of January. In three months from today, which is April 27th, is the date I'm talking about, I will be speaking in Dallas, Texas area, in a church there. And whenever I go to Dallas or any other place in Texas, I figure, why go just for one thing? Once I'm in Texas, I can drive around, and I do. Last time I was in Texas, I had events in Dallas and in Houston and San Antonio and wherever else. I know Texas is a big state, but when I go someplace, when I fly in there, I like to use my time efficiently and have no time off. So from about April 18th to April 28th, if you're in Texas and you'd like to set up for me to speak somewhere near you, when I say near you, I'd say if you're in the Dallas-Fort Worth area or the Houston area or the San Antonio area or most anywhere else that can be driven to in a few hours from one of those places. Get in touch with us. We'll be glad to come. Now, this would mean if you want me to speak at a church event. I'm not necessarily looking to speak on Sunday mornings. I don't expect many pastors to give up the pulpit for that. But evening meetings, Q&As, lectures on subjects that you may choose, home meetings. Yes, even those are good. You know, I don't charge anything. I just need somebody to say, here's the address, show up at this time. If you want to be on our itinerary, my wife is currently setting up that itinerary, and we're talking about dates from April 18th to April 28th, pretty much, if you want to get in touch. I'm not sure the best way to get in touch. My email is at the website, yeah, at thenarrowpath.com. You can email me. Or you can go on Facebook at our ministry page, which is Steve Gregg, The Narrow Path, and you can message through that, too. You can either email or message and just say, hey, we're in such and such a town. We'd like to set something up here sometime during that time, and we'll juggle all those dates and try to get something that will work out for you. That's coming up at the end of April. All right, now we need to get back on the phone, talk to these people. One of them is Thomas from Phoenix, Arizona. Next in line. Hi, Thomas. Welcome.

SPEAKER 04 : 30:38

Hey, Steve. Okay. I got a couple things. First, have you or would you debate an Orthodox priest on Sella Scriptura?

SPEAKER 08 : 30:50

I would. I would. You know, I've just been reading a book about Greek Orthodoxy. A friend of mine who's Greek Orthodox sent it to me, and I've been trying to read it. It's a little hard to read for me. The main thing that the Greek Orthodox mention is that in their phronema, which means their state of mind or their way of thinking, debate doesn't really play a major role because they emphasize much more spiritual experience. And some of the Orthodox people, the older type, they don't even think it's a good thing to be debating theology because... they think that's a Western way of handling things. And so a lot of Eastern Orthodox don't want to debate. Now, some do, and even the book I'm reading kind of complains about that. So there are some Eastern Orthodox that do debate. But they say, basically, it's not so much that you have to prove your belief when you're Eastern Orthodox, you just know it kind of thing. You just experience it. But on the other hand, yeah, if an Eastern Orthodox priest wants to talk about Sola Scripture, I'd be glad to talk to him.

SPEAKER 04 : 32:01

Okay. Yeah, I know a guy. So, okay. Just a thought. Um, and also, the main reason I called, okay, so, uh, like yourself and so many of American Christians, I, uh, my mind on dispensationalism and everything surrounding that has changed a lot, especially recently. Um, one thing I've always wondered about with that, uh, I think you can help me out, um, Okay, if Israel is just a secular nation, right, and they're not necessarily special in the way a lot of us were taught to think, then how do you explain the fact that they've been protected, that they're like the oldest nation, supposedly, that they're still a nation after being dispersed several times? And it would seem to me that there has been a providential hand there. It could just be I was taught that. I hope you know what I'm asking, but how would you explain that part of it?

SPEAKER 08 : 33:01

Well, first of all, you don't have to be a dispensationalist or even think that Israel is God's chosen people in order to believe in divine providence. I mean, I think God has providentially done many great things. I think of Britain's conquest of the Spanish Armada, how the weather caused Britain not to lose its empire to the Spaniards, and I think that's a good thing. I think that was very providential. I believe the finding of America was very providential In other words, I believe God works in history, but neither of those things would suggest that either England or America are God's chosen people. God actually seems to providentially have acted to save the Mormons in Salt Lake City the first year they had crops there. They were about to starve. And about the time they wanted to harvest their grain, a plague of locusts came and threatened to eat all their grain. And they had no other food out there in the wasteland there. And they prayed. And I would say God sent a bunch of seagulls, of all things. And they ate the locusts and saved the crops. Now, I think Mormonism is a false religion. But I believe God's a good God. I believe that there are times that people want to show mercy on people, maybe because they're the underdog, maybe because they're looking to him even though they don't know him. I don't know. So I'm not going to rule out that God's providence could be somehow involved in some of the things that have happened in the preservation of Israel. However, that doesn't mean that God favors Israel necessarily. At one time, God may favor Israel in a particular situation, and another time he may favor their enemies because there is no nation in the world that is specially God's people. It was the case, of course, under the old covenant. God said that if Israel would obey his covenant and keep his word, he said this in Exodus 19.5, that they'd be a holy nation to him. They'd be his own special people. Yeah, but they didn't. He still gave them more chances even when they didn't. And eventually he just said, okay, that's it. The kingdom of God is taken from you and given to someone else. That's what Jesus said in Matthew 21, 40-something, 43, 44, somewhere like that. Now, so, I mean, we can't decide how God feels about a nation by whether they prosper or not. America has prospered. in the past 200 or so years. I'd say more than any other nation in that period of time. And yet there have been times when our nation was really against God. And there's times when we were for him, more or less. But in other words, the prosperity of the nation can't be attributed to the fact that we are somehow God's chosen nation. And I feel the same way about Israel. To decide if Israel is God's chosen nation or not, we need to go to Scripture. Because that's the only place we get God speaking about the subject. You know, I mean... We can interpret things, like an earlier call today was asking about the fires in Los Angeles. Could these be connected to some apocalyptic thing or not? I don't believe they are. Now, are the fires a judgment on the people of Los Angeles? I wouldn't say so. I'm sure there are people who think that way. Sometimes tsunamis are interpreted that way, too, in New Orleans or Indonesia or somewhere like that. People say, oh, that's a judgment from God. Well, I don't know how they know that. How do we know if it is? I mean, I know how God feels about things, about individual nations at any given day, only if the Bible tells me how he feels about it, because that's where he speaks about such things. I mean, Rome was very pagan, but God prospered that nation for many centuries above all the others. So I just don't have any – I'm not prone to make judgments about whether Israel is God's chosen people by the fact that they've prospered. It's been amazing, some things that have happened, that's for sure. But some of the things that people say are amazing aren't that amazing. I mean, a lot of the victories Israel has had – They are represented to us by dispensationalism. Oh, this is miraculous. When you really read about the facts on the ground... It wasn't that miraculous. But dispensationalists sometimes say, well, Israel's the only nation that has survived through the centuries, you know, without a homeland. Well, I don't know if that's true or not. I've heard that the gypsies have never had a homeland in Europe, and yet they consider themselves a nationality. They've existed for centuries and centuries without a homeland. So, I mean, sometimes in their zeal, to make what's happening in Israel an astonishing, miraculous thing, people sometimes misstate facts or interpret facts in ways that they don't have to be interpreted. So I'm not against Israel. I'm not necessarily for Israel. I'm for Christ. I'm for Jesus. And I'm for his people. Now, I'm also for everybody because God loves the world. He causes his son to rise on the evil and on the good. and causes the rain to fall on the just and the unjust. So God is good even to those who are his enemies, Jesus said, which is why he tells us to be good to our enemies. But that being so, it suddenly becomes impossible for us to decide whether a nation is God's enemy or friend simply based on whether he's good to them or not, whether he's been merciful to them or not, whether he's preserved them or not. We don't know what he's preserved them for. Now, the dispensationalists think that God has preserved Israel and is bringing people back to Israel so that when the Antichrist comes, I mean, this is one reason that they expect to happen, the Antichrist will kill off two-thirds of the Jews in Israel. Now, that doesn't sound very pro-Jewish to me. I don't want Jews to be killed off. I'm not a murderer. I'm not a racist. I'm not an anti-Semite. I hope the Jews live and prosper and find Jesus. I hope that for the Arabs, too, and for everybody else. So to favor one nation over another or to even interpret their prosperity as some kind of a mark of God's favor simply is to express an opinion from facts on the ground. And in many cases, especially when Christians are talking about Israel's facts on the ground, they got the facts wrong or they don't have all the facts. There's a lot of things that have happened in Israel. That would be things that dispensationalists would be happy to cover up because they don't fit into the general idea that Israel is God's chosen people. But I'm not here to debunk Israel. I don't have any personal grudge against them. I think every nation, Jewish or Gentile. needs to be righteous before God. And I don't know that they are. I don't know that they're not. I'm not over there. All I can get is Internet memes and stories and things, which are often very hard to know which one's telling the truth. If you're interested in, for example, modern Israel, and whether it's a miracle or not. I have some lectures at our website. I don't know if you've heard them or not, but I have a series at thenarrowpath.com under the topical lectures tab called What Are We to Make of Israel? I think they're listed alphabetically under Israel. Israel, What Are We to Make of Israel? And there's 12 lectures, and I think two of them are about the founding of the modern state of Israel. And I present there a lot of facts, historical truths, lots of witnesses, lots of historical sources that indicate that things didn't happen exactly the way dispensationalists would like to think they did. So, I mean, if you're interested, and if you haven't seen it, if you go to thenarrowpath.com and you look under topical lectures, There's a series called Israel, What Are We to Make of Israel? And I think it's the last two lectures are about the modern state of Israel, though I recommend listening to the whole series. But as far as the survival of Israel into modern times, against all odds, as some people would say, how can we explain that? Well, actually, those lectures do something toward explaining that. I explain the effects of Zionism, the effects of America. and dispensationalism in America that had something to do with that, had a lot to do with Jewish terrorism prior to 1948 in Israel, and things like that. I mean, those are the things that many Christians have never heard. But they're there, and I document all of them. So I suggest maybe you check that out, and it might help you to see a broader picture of all that.

SPEAKER 04 : 42:20

Yeah, I'll check that out.

SPEAKER 08 : 42:22

Okay, thanks, Thomas. God bless. Okay, let's talk to James from Jamesport, Missouri. Hi, James.

SPEAKER 06 : 42:31

Hi, Steve. Thanks for taking my call. Can you hear me? Yes, go ahead. Okay. So my wife and I recently listened to your series again on the title Sun Assembly Required. It's really good. It really helped us. I noticed as a healthcare professional, I see a lot of patients who are becoming disenfranchised with the institutional church, and yet they feel kind of alienated and almost outcast. They genuinely seek fellowship, and a lot of them are still involved in the institutional church. They're willing to let people be persuaded in their own mind about things, but they just feel like they're quenched, the Holy Spirit's quenched when they're in there And I feel the same. And I'm wondering, do you know of a good book that I've looked into some books that talk about this, about, you know, the institutional church versus the body of Christ, but most of them are reformed or there's some other issues. And I'm wondering, do you know, other than your series that I can recommend people listen to who I have and it's blessed, do you know of a good book on the topic?

SPEAKER 08 : 43:54

Well, you know, as I look at my shelf, I've got about a dozen or more books about organic church or home church, alternatives to institutional church. Some of them actually critique the institutional church. One that was very popular years ago. and is still in print, I'm sure, is called Pagan Christianity, which tells about how the institutional church adopted many of its present practices, including the Protestants. I haven't read that book, but many people have told me what's in it. I had already taught my series on Some Assembly Required, where it sounds like that book points out a lot of the same things I do. I mean, my impression is I'm on kind of the same page with it. So that would be a book that, from what I've heard, would be good. There are books, if you go on Amazon or something, look up the term organic church. or house church or home church. I mean, those are subjects that lots of books have been written about. And I would just say don't, you know, accept everything these books say as gospel truth. Be a Berean and see if what they're saying is more scriptural than what the institutional church is saying. I think you have to be discerning because, I mean, if people say, well, we need to honor the institutional church, I think, which one? They don't honor each other. You know, certainly the Catholics and the Eastern Orthodox and the Protestants, they don't honor each other. They're a little friendlier toward each other than they were a century ago. That's true. You know, it's more politically correct to be nice to people and so forth. But still, all of those are institutional churches. And, you know, and they all have things they criticize about the institutions of the others. So, you know, we can't just say, well, just you need to support your local church. Well, OK, support it if it's worth supporting. I'm for that. But the next question is, which one? Which one does the Bible talk about? And in my opinion, the Bible doesn't talk about institutional churches. I think it talks about the body of Christ. I think it talks about the family of God. I think it talks about meetings, gatherings of the church, where they worship together and edify each other, but more that the life of the church has a lot to do with what happens when they're not in these meetings, how they interact with each other, how they love each other, how they support each other, how they step up and bear one another's burdens in real life situations. I think that's more what the church was in the book of Acts. Anyway, there's a lot of books, like I said, I have a lot of them on my shelf. I haven't read most of them simply because I don't have time to read all my books that I've got, but there's been a lot written. I think a lot of them would say a lot of the same things. A lot of these are written by people who've got you know, a gripe about the institutional church. And when you read a book like that, you also need to look out for people who've got a chip on their shoulder, you know, because sometimes people are angry at the institutional church because they had a bad experience. I'm not. I'm not angry at the institutional church. I just don't find much in them that is edifying to me. And, you know, so I'm involved with home church.

SPEAKER 06 : 47:16

Yeah. Yeah. Real quickly, last thing. One of the reasons why I say this is because in our particular area, this Nine Marks organization has literally taken over so many of the institutional churches around here. And whether they're dispensational, Reformed, Anabaptist even, Mennonite, I mean, this Nine Marks ministry, Nine Marks of a Healthy Church, has literally caused so much division in our county. It's just unreal. Have you heard of this? Organization 9 March?

SPEAKER 08 : 47:51

No, I'm going to look it up. I've never heard of that movement. Is it global? Is it national?

SPEAKER 06 : 47:57

Yeah, and it's Mark Beaver is his name.

SPEAKER 08 : 48:02

Okay, I've heard his name, sure. I've heard his name, yeah.

SPEAKER 06 : 48:04

Yeah, so anyway, you might look into that.

SPEAKER 08 : 48:07

Okay. Yeah, I think I will. That sounds significant. I'm sorry to hear that. You know, the problem is institutional churches. I think their main problem is they're being institutional. And I think that being institutional is hard for them to get out of. They've got a 501c3, so they're a corporation. They've got, in many cases, a mortgage to pay. They've got sometimes salaries, usually, to pay. And they have to operate like a business. Whereas I don't think the early church did that at all. And I think that the more the church has become like a business, like a corporation, the more it's unable to be the simple family of God. They have leaders who are like CEOs. They have elders that are like board of directors. I mean, you really can't have a 501c3 without having that. And that means you can't be a corporation. And by the way, The Narrow Path is a corporation. We have a board of directors and so forth, but we're not operating as a church. We're a radio ministry. But churches are a different thing. Anyway, some people are very critical of churches for this. I'm sympathetic. I was raised in institutional churches. I've been an elder in institutional churches. I've been in dozens of different institutional churches as either a congregant or a leader. And I know that most institutional church leaders I've known have been very sincere and have a right heart. But I think in many cases they're trapped in a system that they don't even know is not supposed to be. But anyway... Yeah, there's lots of books you can get. I haven't written a book on it, so just my series, Some Assembly Required, which you've heard.

SPEAKER 06 : 49:53

Yeah, and it's great.

SPEAKER 08 : 49:55

Thanks for your time, Steve. Okay, James. I appreciate your call. I'm sorry for the frustration you're having there. Lots of people are with you. That's it. All right. Bye now. Matt from Liberty, Maine. Welcome.

SPEAKER 05 : 50:08

Hi, Steve. Love the program, and I appreciate you fielding my question. Sure. I'm currently reading through the Bible for the first time in a year. in my life, and it's bringing up what many might feel are some basic questions. The question I have is related to Cain and Abel. Once Cain kills Abel, and he's responding to the Lord's punishment, and he states basically, this is more than I can bear. If I'm in the land, whoever finds me will kill me. My question is, my understanding for years has been that it was just Cain and Abel at this time, so I'm curious who those folks are that he's afraid it will kill him. And a quick follow-up to that is the verses that follow that reference his wife. And I've just been curious as to where she came from.

SPEAKER 08 : 50:56

Right. And that's been a classic question many people have had as they read the Genesis. I think it comes from not really thinking about the story very much. I mean, no offense. I think most people read it without giving it too much deeper thought. But we are told that when God made Adam and Eve, He told them to be fruitful and multiply and fill the earth, which we believe they did. In Genesis chapter 5 and verse 3, it says, or actually verse 4, Genesis 5, 4 says that Adam, in addition to the sons that are named for us, had other sons and daughters. Now, when did he start having these sons and daughters? Well, from Genesis 4, 1, I have the impression that Cain was the very first son. And it looks like Abel was probably the very second. There could have been others in between, but we're not told about them. But there were clearly children born whose names are not given to us. And when they were born is not told either. But Cain certainly didn't kill Abel while they were toddlers. Cain no doubt killed Abel while he was an adult. In fact, there's evidence that they were probably almost 130 years old when Cain killed Abel. Why? Because at the end of chapter 4, of Genesis, it tells us about the birth of Seth. Now, the word Seth means appointed. And when this son was born, it says, Eve said, God has appointed. That's the word Seth means appointed. God has appointed another seed for me instead of Abel, whom Cain killed. Now, Eve mentions that Cain had killed Abel. And she saw this son born was apparently a replacement for Abel, who had apparently recently been killed. Now, that means that Seth was born probably the first son after the death of Abel. And yet in chapter 5, verse 3, we're told that Seth was born when Adam and Eve were 130 years old. Okay, so put this together. Seth was born when Adam and Eve were 130 years old. And this was probably the first son born after Cain killed Abel. So that Cain and Abel were almost 130 years old. Apparently, they had been born much sooner. And so between the birth of Cain and Abel and the birth of Seth was almost 130 years. Now, when God had told Adam and Eve to be fruitful and multiply and he gave them no birth control, but I'm sure he gave them very fruitful biological machines. I'm sure that they were having a lot of kids. It'd be very strange if they didn't have at least one a year. So they could have had two a year. You know, who knows? Lots of people have multiple sets of twins. And God wanted to fill the whole earth with them. So they may have had twins and triplets. Who knows? But even if they had only one child a year, by the time Cain filled Abel, there could be 125 people besides him and his dead brother in the time that had elapsed. Now, 125 people would be enough to be concerned about because they would want to avenge their brother's death, their brother Abel, who had been killed by their brother Cain. And that's what he's concerned about. He probably grabbed one of his sisters, too, for a wife. God intended for Adam and Eve's children to marry and have children, so they would have to, of course, marry siblings. So I don't think there's a problem there. There was a population there, and the Bible allows for that. Adam and Eve had sons and daughters, we're told. I'm sorry I'm out of time. I wish I wasn't. You've been listening to The Narrow Path? Our website is thenarrowpath.com. Let's talk again tomorrow. God bless.