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Join Dr. James Dobson in an engaging conversation with Jackie M. Johnson, author and executive assistant at the James Dobson Family Institute. As they delve into the emotional struggles and spiritual challenges of breakups, Jackie shares her encounters with love and loss, imparting wisdom on finding healing and hope. Whether dealing with rejection, anger, or a crisis of faith, this episode offers listeners guidance and encouragement to rebuild and find solace in God's divine timing. Listen as Jackie M. Johnson discusses how to cope with broken relationships and discover new beginnings with faith as the foundation.
SPEAKER 03 :
Well, hello everyone. I'm James Dobson and you're listening to Family Talk, a listener-supported ministry. In fact, thank you so much for being part of that support for James Dobson Family Institute.
SPEAKER 01 :
Well, welcome to Family Talk. I'm Roger Marsh. You know, Valentine's Day is less than two weeks away, and this month we are tackling a topic that affects millions of Americans, the challenging journey of healing after a relationship ends. The pain of a breakup can feel overwhelming, leaving us with deep questions about God's plan and our own worth. Well, today here on Family Talk, we are joined by someone who understands that journey intimately. Author Jackie M. Johnson has written a book called When Love Ends and the Ice Cream Carton is Empty. And she shares her personal story of navigating difficult breakups and finding hope through faith. Through her own healing journey, Jackie discovered biblical principles that helped her move from heartache to hope, and she has poured these insights into three books that have touched countless lives, offered practical wisdom for those seeking to rebuild after relationship loss. Jackie's not only an accomplished author and avid blogger, she is also Dr. Dobson's executive assistant and a beloved member of the staff here at the James Dobson Family Institute. Whether you're currently healing from a breakup or know someone who is, today's conversation will remind you that you're not alone in your pain. But more importantly, you'll discover how God can transform even our deepest hurts into something beautiful. Here now is Dr. James Dobson with our guest, Jackie M. Johnson, on today's edition of Family Talk.
SPEAKER 03 :
Now, today we're going to be talking about a program that we are long overdue in discussing. It's one that... I have cared about, I wrote about it in my book, Love Must Be Tough. But we have a guest here today who has experienced this single life, and she has written a book called When Love Ends and the Ice Cream Carton. is empty. We're going to have to have her explain that to us. Now, the reason this topic is so important is because the United States Census Bureau says that the average age for women to get married is now 27. Boy, that's changed a lot. And the average age for men is 29. And the people who get married at the average age are already nearly halfway through the fertile years of life. And that changes a whole lot. Additionally, there are 110 million unmarried people in the United States alone, most of whom have remained single for their whole life. Why have we not dealt with this subject more in the past? If you are single and you've waited for us to talk about this subject, today is today, and I'm sorry we've taken a long time to get to it. With people putting off saying, I do, until later in life or remaining single, the dating and breaking up experience that begins in the teen years can continue on until the early 50s. And no matter how young or old you are, breaking up can be an extremely difficult and emotionally draining experience. Before we went on the air, we were recalling a song that was popular In 1962, in fact, it hit number one. And I'm not going to sing it to you or we'd go off the air. Don't take your love away from me. Don't leave my heart in misery. Those of you who have lived a little longer in life may remember that because that was a very popular song. Well, I mentioned the guest who is here and the book she's written. Let me tell you more about her. She is an executive assistant to me here at James Dobson Family Institute. Her name is Jackie Johnson. She is good at what she does. And she's done a lot of thinking about this subject because she's been there. And we want to plumb the depths of of the topic with her today. She is an experienced writer. She's written three books. She writes a blog called Living Single. And she has a BA in English and Communication from Trinity International University in Illinois. Jackie, Shirley and I love and appreciate you so much. And it's time that we had you in the studio today. And thanks for joining us.
SPEAKER 02 :
Thank you. It's good to be here.
SPEAKER 03 :
How long has this book been out?
SPEAKER 02 :
The book came out in 2010 with Moody Publishers. But the topic is timeless because people are always dating and breaking up. And they can use some help and hope and encouragement.
SPEAKER 03 :
I read in the prep for today that you've sold more than 500,000 books.
SPEAKER 02 :
Yes.
SPEAKER 03 :
Is that right?
SPEAKER 02 :
Yes.
SPEAKER 03 :
My goodness. You're a big deal.
SPEAKER 02 :
Well, I'm just trying to help people.
SPEAKER 03 :
Are most of those books on this subject?
SPEAKER 02 :
My other books are on the topic of prayer. And I think the overarching thing I write about is hope and encouragement. And that can take a lot of different forms. So I'm glad to be here today to talk about this.
SPEAKER 03 :
Jackie, let's go back to Neil Sadaka's song. Why is breaking up so very, very hard?
SPEAKER 02 :
It is hard. Letting go is never easy because you have to say goodbye to someone that you loved or you liked. And the thing is, you've been spending time with this person. You've grown attached to them. You probably might be in love with them, especially if it's a long-term relationship. And now you're on your own again. It's a transition. And I think it's hard to recover from a breakup because I think God designed us for attachment and connection, not for detachment and disconnection. Sometimes we go through these series of hello, goodbye, dating and breaking up, relationship after relationship. And sadly, nobody teaches us how to get over a breakup or how to deal with endings.
SPEAKER 03 :
You know, I've not seen another book on this subject. Yeah. Let's name some of the emotions that go along with it. There is rejection, and there is loneliness, and there is pain and hurt and sorrow.
SPEAKER 02 :
Yes.
SPEAKER 03 :
And there are many, many other emotions that accompany it that describe some of them.
SPEAKER 02 :
Right. Hurt and sadness are really the most common. You could be angry. You could feel betrayed. They could have found somebody else and put you by the wayside. Right.
SPEAKER 03 :
Sometimes the breakup is not very kind either, isn't it?
SPEAKER 02 :
That's true. That's true. I've gone through a number of relationships. One guy moved halfway across the country and wouldn't return my phone calls.
SPEAKER 03 :
And this is somebody you had a relationship established?
SPEAKER 02 :
Yes, for over a year.
SPEAKER 03 :
He didn't return your phone call.
SPEAKER 02 :
No. So he was a coward, and he would not even talk to me. I had someone break up with me over email after two years. You've got to be kidding. No, we did talk the next day or two in person, but the information came to me by email. So I think that if you do break up with someone— You want to be kind. You want to be respectful. You want to speak the truth in love. That's what the Bible says. Speak the truth in love.
SPEAKER 03 :
You called them cowards to do that.
SPEAKER 02 :
I did, yes.
SPEAKER 03 :
Would you agree that women are more likely to suffer from the breakup of a relationship?
SPEAKER 02 :
You know, that's an interesting question, Dr. Dobson, because I've heard the phrase that women bend but men break. And sometimes I think women do feel that emotion strongly, but maybe we have better coping mechanisms because we have our friends to lean on. We have the Bible to lean on. We're looking for answers of how to get over it. And maybe not to generalize, but sometimes men tough it out and try to figure it out on their own or stuff their emotions.
SPEAKER 03 :
You mentioned cowardice. I think that's one reason people do such a bad job of letting the other person know that it's not going to work. They had rather write an email. I mean, that's about the worst thing I've heard.
SPEAKER 02 :
Right. And it's hard to believe that someone who once said they liked you or loved you would treat you in this fashion and say nothing or not speak with you face to face. I think as believers that we are to do. Be respectful and be gentle. And here we are trying to speak the truth in love. I know I just said that, but, you know, there's a way to do it and a way not to do it. Because the thing is, if you don't deal with your breakup pain, then you carry it from one relationship to the next, to the next, to the next. And that can affect your dating life and possibly your future marriage.
SPEAKER 01 :
You're listening to Family Talk, and that was our host, Dr. James Dobson, with his guest, Jackie M. Johnson. Jackie is the author of the book, When Love Ends and the Ice Cream Carton is Empty. She and Dr. Dobson have been talking about the pain of breakups and what to do when a relationship doesn't work out the way you planned. Let's return now to Dr. Dobson's conversation with Jackie Johnson right here on Family Talk.
SPEAKER 03 :
Let's talk about what changes when you have established a relationship and you have the assumption that that's leading to marriage. And you've built your future around marriage. that relationship because you foresee marriage and children. You know, I think at that point, women do suffer more than men typically because they hear Big Ben gonging in the background. The time is passing. And I mentioned earlier the fertility period. It's only about 27, 28 years, maybe 30. And the latter end of that, it's sometimes not easy for a And as the time goes on, another year, another Christmas, another Easter, another summer, and you get closer and closer to that time when the dream of having a baby and raising a child and pouring your life into him or her It's becoming less and less likely. So when a breakup occurs, all that looms before you. I got to start over now with somebody else. And this is getting away from me. There's a panic that is associated with that experience, isn't there?
SPEAKER 02 :
There can be, definitely, especially if you're a woman who wants to have children and have a family. Let me give you an illustration from my own life. I was dating someone for two years, which is a pretty long time. We met in our church singles group, and we did everything together. We went on mission trips. We were in a prayer group together. We were in leadership. We spent a lot of time together. And then I went away on a trip, came back, and he was the one who sent me the email that said he had found somebody else. And this person— Did you know the person he found? I did. Okay.
SPEAKER 03 :
You got to be kidding.
SPEAKER 02 :
No, she was in our singles group as well. And he told me by email that he felt led to now be with her. So it kind of felt like a double betrayal because.
SPEAKER 03 :
Fell led. I mean, that is a cowardly statement in itself. Blame it on God. You know, I haven't done this to you. God told me not to. continue the relationship. I don't believe that's likely to be true in most cases.
SPEAKER 02 :
Well, it was really difficult, Dr. Dobson, because we had talked about marriage. We had talked about should we have children or not. We had talked about a future. And I was stunned. I was shocked. I think I was in shock because I didn't see it coming. I had no idea. And this person was a friend of mine. So You know, I felt like there was a double betrayal in that he never said anything, she never said anything. I felt rejected. Why did he pick her over me?
SPEAKER 03 :
There is also a certain assault on self-worth that occurs at a time like this, isn't there? There's this ache that says, what's wrong with me? you know, why did this happen to me? There's also a spiritual dimension to it. You and I talked before about the fact that people blame God, speaking of Him, and say, why would you let this happen to me? Didn't you hear my prayers? You know, was there something wrong with my prayers that you didn't hear it? And now this has occurred. Are those things you talk about in your book
SPEAKER 02 :
Absolutely. I thought a lot about what I wanted to include in this book because, like you said, I couldn't find another book that would help me. Where were the Bible verses? Where was the comfort? Where was the hope and the encouragement? Where is God in all of this? What do I do with forgiveness? I mean, a lot of things were swirling in my head.
SPEAKER 03 :
Anger is one of them, isn't it?
SPEAKER 02 :
Absolutely. Definitely.
SPEAKER 03 :
Jackie, did anybody help you? Did anybody come alongside and put an arm around you, any girlfriend, anybody, pastor, who said, Jackie, you're going to get over this. You're going to deal with this. This is very painful. But you are a worthy person, and God has not abandoned you. Did anybody talk to you that way?
SPEAKER 02 :
Yes, I am really blessed to have a good group of friends. And my friends are very comforting and nurturing and supportive. They prayed for me. They prayed with me. There was even a class at our church about getting over loss. So it wasn't specifically for a breakup, but I thought, well, I guess that's the closest thing that I could find to it. But, you know, you talked about my relationship with God and how that plays into all this. Sure, I had a ton of questions. You know, why did this happen? Why am I not enough? Why is God keeping me from lasting love? And it took me a really long time. I would search the scriptures. I would sit on my bed with a pen and paper and look for every single word about hope, about encouragement, about getting over a loss. And as a Christian, I can look to the one who loves me most and which is Jesus Christ, and have a new perspective. That new perspective is God's truth, and God's truth doesn't change. And one of the main things I learned was that God is not withholding from me something good. He's protecting me and saving me for his best. And I can trust him even when I do not understand. That was huge.
SPEAKER 03 :
You can trust him even when you can't track him is one of my phrases. I also wrote a book similar to this. It's not specifically about singles, but it's about the breakup of a marriage and what happens. But I believe... What I wrote there is very much relevant to the breakup of a couple that's not married. And I don't know anybody else that's written this, Jackie, but I believe it's absolutely true. And I've gotten thousands of letters from people saying this was helpful to them. When you begin to sense... That the other person doesn't feel about you the way you feel about them. In your case, you were blindsided. But usually, you're seeing the other person drift. The natural tendency in that situation is to grab and hold. to plead, to beg, to say, you can't do this to me. What will I do without you? To build a cage around them. You know what that does to the other person? It sends them the other way. It's the quickest way to end a relationship. When you begin to show that you're in a state of panic, which is the usual way because the whole world falls apart. Everything you had hoped for, everything you look forward to in the future, a life together as a family, and now it's gone. And if what I just said is true, the best thing you can do in a moment like that is to move the other way. sometimes the person who is moving away will turn around and come back. And I can tell you that happened with Shirley and me, because I graduated from college before she did, and I went off to the Army, and I came back one Christmas. She had assumed the relationship was going to continue. What I was thinking is, that as soon as I get out of the Army, I'm going to the University of Texas to get a Ph.D., and I can't afford a wife, and I need to give my attention to my studies, and I don't think that we are headed toward marriage. And how do I tell her this? Well, there ain't no easy way. So at the end of the Christmas vacation— We went out and we had an absolutely wonderful evening. We laughed, we had fun. We came back about 12 o'clock at night to her dorm. And I said to myself, this is the moment. And I said, Shirley, I've been doing a lot of thinking. And I just need to tell you, I don't think this is leading to marriage. And I've got plans of what I think the Lord wants me to do. And I think that we ought to see other people. You ever heard that one before?
SPEAKER 02 :
I read your book. And Mrs. Shirley Dobson has inspired me.
SPEAKER 03 :
Well, she did exactly the right thing. Instead of begging me and putting her arm around me and saying, don't do this to me. She said, well, I've been thinking the same thing, and I think we should see some other people, and I think we ought to just kind of go our separate ways, and we'll put it on hold for a while. We'll see what happens. I took her to the door, shocked the daylights out of me because I thought that I was in for a very emotional ordeal.
SPEAKER 02 :
Sure.
SPEAKER 03 :
And we stood at the door. I asked her if I could kiss her goodbye, and she said no, a shake on it. And with no ado, she went into the dorm. And she went into her room and cried all night. If I had seen that, I would have been gone forever. But the way she let me go, by the time I got back to where I was staying, at 1, 2, 3 o'clock in the morning, I was lying there thinking about having hurt the best friend I ever had. And I began to get this big lump in my throat. And I wondered if I could get her back. And I went on to the Army, went to Fort Ord. I called her. And I said, I couldn't see the forest for the trees. And I've made a big mistake. And I think we ought to continue the relationship. She was very cool. And I wrote her a big long letter. And she didn't answer it for two weeks. She was dying inside. And by the time I came out of that episode, I didn't want to repeat it. That's personal, but I've seen now in so many others who either break up as singles or they get married and then have a horrible ripping and tearing of flesh. That's what you're writing about, isn't it?
SPEAKER 02 :
Yeah. Thank you for sharing that. That's really important for people to know.
SPEAKER 03 :
Well, we're almost out of time, Jackie, but we're not out of content. We need to talk some more. And the name of the book is When Love Ends. Okay, we're going to take the end of the program, the last 30 seconds, for you to tell what in the world that has to do with the ice cream carton is empty, the subtitle of the book.
SPEAKER 02 :
Sure, right. You know, so many times in movies and TV you see somebody breaking up, the girl sitting on her bed with an ice cream carton, you know, like a pint size, and she's got the spoon and she's crying and eating ice cream. And, you know, it's kind of a popular thing, especially women do, to comfort themselves after a breakup. But what we're going to learn is that there are healthier and better ways to cope.
SPEAKER 03 :
Let's talk about them next time.
SPEAKER 02 :
Okay, that'd be great. Thank you.
SPEAKER 03 :
Jackie, thanks for writing this book, for your care for singles. And I think you're going to hear from some people out there who are going through this right now. We'll talk about it next time.
SPEAKER 01 :
Even the most painful endings can become beautiful beginnings when we learn to trust God's bigger plan for our lives. You've been listening to Family Talk and a powerful conversation about healing after heartbreak featuring our own Dr. James Dobson and his guest author Jackie M. Johnson. Jackie's journey from personal pain to ministry reminds us that God can transform our deepest hurts into sources of hope for others. Now, if you missed any portion of today's broadcast, or if you'd like to share it with a friend who needs to hear this message, you can always find that audio on our app or by visiting drjamesdobson.org forward slash family talk. There you'll also find the information about Jackie Johnson's book, When Love Ends and the Ice Cream Carton is Empty. Again, go to drjamesdobson.org forward slash family talk. And be sure to join us again next time. You'll hear part two of this powerful conversation. Well, speaking of hope and healing, I want to tell you about a wonderful free resource from the Dr. James Dobson Family Institute. We've created several inspiring reading plans available through the Bible app by YouVersion, covering topics from relationships to parenting to finding God's purpose for every season of life. Whether you have three minutes or 30, these reading plans bring practical biblical insights right to your smartphone. Just open the Bible app on your phone or tablet, search for Dr. James Dobson, and begin your first reading plan today. Here at the JDFI, we are committed to helping people find healing and hope through biblical truth. These daily broadcasts are made possible through the generous support of friends just like you who value having a trusted voice to turn to during life's challenging seasons. If today's program about finding hope after heartbreak has touched your heart, Again, that's P.O. Box 39000. Colorado Springs, Colorado, the zip code 80949. Well, I'm Roger Marsh, and on behalf of Dr. Dobson and all of us here at Family Talk, thanks so much for listening. Be sure to join us again next time when you'll hear the conclusion of Dr. Dobson's conversation with author Jackie M. Johnson, right here on Dr. James Dobson's Family Talk, the voice you trust for the family you love. This has been a presentation of the Dr. James Dobson Family Institute.
Listen as Dr. James Dobson and Mary Crowley discuss the challenges women face, such as low self-esteem and the quest for self-fulfillment in a world full of distractions. Mary emphasizes the importance of confidence and a supportive community, sharing insights on finding personal success beyond societal norms. Through personal anecdotes and scripture-based wisdom, this episode aims to inspire women to discover God's plan for them and to thrive in every area of life.
SPEAKER 03 :
Welcome everyone to Family Talk. It's a ministry of the James Dobson Family Institute supported by listeners just like you. I'm Dr. James Dobson and I'm thrilled that you've joined us.
SPEAKER 01 :
Well, welcome to Family Talk, the broadcast division of the Dr. James Dobson Family Institute. I'm Roger Marsh. And whether you're listening at home or on the go, you are in for something special today. We are bringing you a classic conversation featuring Mary Crowley, author of the book Women Who Win, Who We'll be right back. $400 million in business, powered by thousands of women working from their homes. The company became so successful that when they held a celebration, they filled an arena with 10,000 of their top saleswomen, and they featured Bob Hope and Billy Graham as special guests. But Mary's secret wasn't just business savvy. It was putting priorities in the right order. Mary started every company meeting by reading Scripture, often turning to the Proverbs for wisdom about leadership. And here's an interesting connection. Mary Kay Ash, who co-founded Mary Kay Cosmetics with a similar home party business model, was actually Mary Crowley's sister-in-law. Now, in her book, Women Who Win, Mary addresses a challenge many women still face today, and that is a lack of self-confidence. Her message is both simple and powerful. You are designed for fulfillment, and God has a plan for your life. Mary Crowley believed that by honoring God and serving others, women could find success both at home and in business. So let's listen now as Mary talks about those timeless principles with our own Dr. James Dobson on this special edition of Family Talk.
SPEAKER 03 :
I would like to say this is one of the most generous women I have ever met. She supports Christian causes all across this country. And your generosity is legendary, Mary. So you have taken what God has given you and shared it with so many causes that you believe in. But where did all that start? How did you get into business?
SPEAKER 02 :
Well, I got in business 27 years ago. Actually, I'd been in direct selling business before that, but now my kids were grown and I saw a need. There was a need for American women to decorate their homes with excitement and with care. And from a coordinated line of accessories, I found that women were not sure what to do. And I'd worked for furniture companies before. And so we started the business to give women an opportunity to work from their homes, be there when the kids got home from school, and still use their creative genius, which God gave every woman. Every woman is a genius. Some just don't know it yet or haven't developed yet. And this is the idea of the business, and we had twin goals. One was to honor God, because I knew by then that if we didn't honor Him, we would not be successful. Now, that doesn't mean that people who do not belong to the Lord, and there are lots of successful people, quote, in the world, they can be successful. But if I've made a profession of faith in Jesus Christ as my Lord and my Master, that I cannot be successful if I do not honor Him. Somehow along the line, he'll let me fall flat on my face. And I've done that a few times, too. I believe that's true. Absolutely. So it had to honor him. And then it had to bless and serve people. The whole world wants service. They can buy products. They can buy merchandise. They can buy lots of things. but we want genuine, caring, personal service. And that was our goal, to do that. And in so doing, to help the woman who was showing and selling our accessories to find fulfillment in herself and to have a fellowship of her sisters. You know, America needs places where people can go to belong, to find a support team. When our great-grandmothers came across the prairies, They had quilting bees and canning bees, and they had support teams for one another in their difficult times and in their joyous times. So we have built support teams all across America. And the fellowship is as important as the salesmanship. And so that's how we started. We started from our garage, very, very small. My son and my daughter and myself and a few friends, people that invested and believed in us. And it's grown beyond my wildest imagination, and it's pretty wild.
SPEAKER 03 :
Let's address some comments to the woman who is at home, where you were when you started. I don't know what your circumstances were, but let's suppose that she feels somewhat unfulfilled and somewhat frustrated. She wants to do something significant with her life. Maybe the kids now are in the teen years, and she knows they're going to be gone before too long, and she's wondering what now. What do you say to her? How does she begin to put it all together and find out who she is? Does that necessarily mean she's got to be successful in business like you are in order to find yourself?
SPEAKER 02 :
No. Again, I come back to the measure of success for each person. Success is a moving target. When you've got little kids at home, sometimes it's just getting through the day. You know, and then as they go into school and you begin to have other time, and then it may be reading good books and getting yourself, your mind activated again. Maybe it's starting an exercise program, whatever it is, that the measure of success that makes you feel fulfilled, it's different for everybody. And each person has to learn to define their own. Otherwise, they are always trying to
SPEAKER 03 :
Why do you think that moving target is so difficult for American women to hit? Why do you think so many American women are frustrated?
SPEAKER 02 :
Because they are trying to find their measure of fulfillment in what they're hearing, either on TV or maybe radio or reading in some magazine, instead of trying to find out what God's game plan is for them. I heard a wonderful interview with Walter Payton not long ago, and he defined something that was so great. The interviewer asked him, is your measure of success 100 yards gained in a game, as is the measure of success for a ball game for a running back? And he said, no, my measure of success is following the game plan consistently. designed for that game to the very best of my ability. And I thought that was a wonderful way to illustrate what everybody, God has a game plan for my life, for your life, for every woman out there with little kids or big kids or no kids. And if somebody tried to just copy mine, they might get very frustrated. I have a high energy level, and I can do a lot of things. Others might not. We're all made differently. Okay.
SPEAKER 03 :
Could it be that God's game plan for a particular woman would be to stay home and take care of three little kids under six years of age for this period of her life? Society is telling her that that's nobody's game plan. Could that be God's game plan for some people?
SPEAKER 02 :
Well, he says that in his word, and then he also says that older women should help the younger women. And I think this is where, again, I was talking about a support team. A lot of young women with little children are feeling so alienated and so unsupported because maybe her parents or his parents do not live close. Society has not built a support team around them in our today's world. that's where they need to find a support team. They have to have fellowship with other women, and maybe it's a Bible class, maybe it's a home interior show, maybe it's coming in part-time, or maybe it's simply finding other group of women who have uplifting, motivating things to do. put in their hours otherwise sometimes we do recruit mothers with young kids because she's sitting there watching the daytime dramas and living in a fantasy world and that is no good for her and so if we can enlighten her and lift her up and give her something to do part-time that will fulfill her desires and create you know we try to develop her creative talents women want to be accepted understood and developed They don't want to stay static. They want to be developed. So whatever. If you're sitting out there and you're thinking, well, I'm not being developed, then you find something that develops your mind, your spirit, your being. And don't sit there and get caught in that daytime drama trap of fantasy world. That's the worst thing.
SPEAKER 03 :
You're talking about soap opera.
SPEAKER 02 :
I am, I am. Well, that's terrible.
SPEAKER 03 :
It really is.
SPEAKER 02 :
Well, but that's what happens to a lot of women who are home with little kids, Dr. Dobson. That's what happens to them. And so then just being at home with the children does not minister to their spirit or does not even help them to be good mothers unless they must have a plan to be a successful mother and a successful wife and woman.
SPEAKER 03 :
Mary, what do you say to the person who is very frustrated in their present job? Do you have any advice to a person who just feels they're in a dead-end trap? Change it. Absolutely. But it costs money. I'm making more money than I could make someplace else. Yeah, but it's not making you happy, so what good is it? But I've got to feed my family.
SPEAKER 02 :
Find another way to feed them. No, it isn't really worth it if people are frustrated in their jobs unless there is a real way that they can change the frustration in that job. If it's their attitude, then they better change the attitude. But if it's the job itself and there is no hope of fulfillment, then change the job. Life's too short and too wonderful to waste it on frustration. Now, we'll have frustrations in all jobs. People need to realize that. There are days of frustration in any job, and you can't expect a frustration-free job. But at the end of the day, there must be something that you feel that you've accomplished in the lives of other people. or in going forward in your measure of success or something that you have done that is an accomplishment at the end of every day. Oh, there'll be days you think, well, what did I accomplish today? I've just not even gotten through the mail. I didn't get through the dishes. I didn't get through there too many. You know, we live in the day of distractomania. But you can find something, some life that you touched, something that you did that made the doing worthwhile.
SPEAKER 03 :
I think you've put your finger on really the critical issue having to do with the support team. I've tried to write and talk about that because I find many women know they need that but don't know how to go and get it. I was counseling with a young mother just the other day in my office, and she said, I don't have anybody. I don't have any close friends. The one I had turned her back on me. And this is a very bright woman who's a schoolteacher and is very capable, very verbal, very able to get out and meet the world. Oh, I need to recruit her. And yet I find many women like that don't know how to take the first step. There is a lack of confidence perhaps to go outside that front door and maybe somebody will hurt me or reject me and it's just easier or seems easier to pull in and let the four walls collapse. I guess you're really addressing that problem.
SPEAKER 02 :
We do. We address that problem a great deal. And you hit it when you said lack of confidence. One time I took a poll all across America from thousands of women, asked them what were their three greatest problems personality-wise, society-wise, business-wise, or family-wise. And north, south, east, and west, there was no names on the papers. It was lack of self-confidence, low esteem. I was just floored. Here's the greatest nation in the earth, the highest educational level for all women, the greatest opportunities. So I set about my goal is to help every woman I meet or that hear the sound of my voice to feel better about herself, to realize you are designed for life. God has a plan for your life, but I fully believe that they cannot find it till they find that absolute, till they realize that God is their creator, he is their maker, and then they begin to understand what is the character of God. He loves, he cares, he's just, he's fair, he has great things for us. And once you find that, you see, people often say to me, well, haven't you been discriminated against as a woman? Well, maybe I just didn't have sense enough to know it. But you see, if somebody tries to put me down, it diminishes them, not me. My self-worth is tied up in the character of God himself. And once any woman finds that out, she's redeemed. She's free to be herself and then free to have the confidence to say to somebody, look, I need some help. I want to get to know some people. And how do you turn people with low self-esteem into good salespeople? Well, first of all, they have to learn what selling really is. They have an idea that selling is going out and talking and convincing people. No, it is not. True selling is serving a need in that person. And women are very good at understanding that once you find what this person needs and help them fill the need. Women are in the habit of filling needs of children, of husbands, of You know, they're nurturers by very nature. And once they realize that it's a natural for them to be able to find the need and to fill it and to help the person in a serving way, they realize that it isn't something big out there that they have to learn, but it's something that they already have, a natural opportunity. ability to do. We just need to develop that ability and help them see what it really is. It's a matter of learning what selling really is. Most people think of it as something that you talk and that you convince. No, it's finding out person to person what her needs and desires and likes are, what she needs in her life, what she needs in her home, and then I can help you find that. I can help you Express your love for your family on the wall or in the figurines or the way that you even arrange a bouquet of flowers. And women are natural nurturers and natural helpers in this area. So once she finds out that she already has the natural ability, we just help her develop it.
SPEAKER 03 :
You know, my book, What Wives Wish Their Husbands Knew About Women, is based on this same thing we're talking about here, where I ask over 10,000 women to rank order the sources of depression in their lives. And it blew me away, too, that the number one source of depression in young, middle-class, seemingly happily married Christian women was low self-esteem, 50%. of the original test group that I based this little study on put that number one, and 80% put it in the top five. So this pervasive lack of confidence, lack of self-worth, is extremely widespread in our culture. And I think, again, it comes back to television to some degree, where every woman feels like she's got to be beautiful and young and successful and the object of somebody's great romantic love and attention in order to feel acceptable and to feel the confidence necessary to cope with life. And unfortunately, that support system just often isn't there.
SPEAKER 02 :
Well, and not everybody is young and slim and gorgeous.
SPEAKER 03 :
Yeah, unfortunately. What do you do, Mary, when you're looking eye to eye with a very powerful male corporate executive who has the authority to move great numbers of people and so on? You being a woman, do you look eye to eye with him?
SPEAKER 02 :
Oh, absolutely. Oh, I thoroughly enjoy him. I'm on lots of boards where I'm the only woman. But I don't come in and try to be a pushy female. Let me be sure that I do say that. I am there to make a contribution, not to compete. And with that complete positive attitude, I never have any difficulty there. Because God made us to have special roles and special talents and special abilities. And I can greet and meet and deal with people Corporate executives are presidents. Well, that's now.
SPEAKER 03 :
You've got 39,000 people on your staff. What about when you had one? What about when you were beginning? Did you have that kind of confidence, or did it grow through the years?
SPEAKER 02 :
Well, part of it has grown through the years, but I always had a lot of confidence. Well, the good Lord born me on April Fool's Day. That was wonderful, because most people worry about making a fool of themselves, and they won't do things that are going to make a fool. I didn't have to worry about that. You'd already gotten the title. I'd already gotten the title, yeah. So... But part of it comes from the fact that, well, my grandparents taught me to... place the bible as one of you know our priorities not long ago i gave a speech to young people and i took a tv guide and a bible with me and i held them up i said all of you have these two books in your home which one do you refer to the most next week dr alan redpath from england recently spoke and he said in england we used to base our morality on the bible now we base it on tv And I thought, you know, that's exactly what's happening in America, really. And so in looking at the Bible, God is who he says he is in his book. I am who he says I am in his book. And since he's who he is and I'm who he says I am, I can do all things through Christ who strengthens me.
SPEAKER 03 :
Who does he say you are, Mary?
SPEAKER 02 :
He says that I am a child of his. If I believe in Jesus Christ, I'm joint heirs with him. Wow! Wow! What kind of a promise that is. And then, oh, you know, many, many places he says, you talk about giving. Over in Thessalonians where he says, if you will give and share that all grace will be given in all situations and all your needs will be met. Now, that is a pretty powerful promise. And I've been claiming those for years. Tithing to me is the secret of it. You see, what I can make is not for me to be hoarding. It's a channel. It's a channel. It's kind of like forgiveness. Forgiveness is not given to us in a cup. It's given to us in a pipeline. So what I receive is to be given. You can't out-give God. He just multiplies it. I am just amazed at Him.
SPEAKER 03 :
What do you say to the people who just feel like they can't tithe? Mary, they just can't pay their bills now, and they are $75 short every week, and just isn't enough to go around, and the kids need shoes, and there's a hole in the roof, and we're trying to put our oldest boy into Christian schools. How in the world am I going to give any money to the Lord's kingdom?
SPEAKER 02 :
Well, I go back to when I started tithing, and it was about 40 years ago. And I was in just that same situation. I had two kids. I was a single parent. I was raising two kids. The war was on. I was working for an insurance company. My income had not risen like other people's had. It was pledge time at the First Baptist Church in Dallas, and I always pledged and gave, but I didn't think I could tithe. So, particularly night, though, the kids were asleep, and I was wrestling with that, and I was telling the Lord all the reasons I could not tithe. Hmm. And I thought of that verse in Proverbs, you know, but is the Lord convinced? He speaks to us through our creative genius mind that he gives us. Well, Mary, you're not doing such a hot job of it yourself. Why don't you give me a chance? I said, okay, Lord, I check tithe. It's your problem. It's your management of my life. I'm going to bed. So then I had to explain to our housekeeper and the kids, you know, we had to take it out first because if you don't take it out first, it won't be there. And we ate oatmeal quite a bit there in the beginning, and some of them would grumble and everything. Something happens. I can't explain it. I don't understand God's mathematics. But within two months' time, I was able to get out of debt. Behind the eight ball wasn't debt per se, but just get caught up. From that day till this, we didn't suddenly have a lot of money. But something did happen. And I can guarantee that if you give God's management of your money, he has management of your life. Things change. It really is true. I cannot explain it. It really is true. I challenge people. I've challenged. I teach classes. I told you of people, 150 people single by death or divorced. A lot of them have aging parents and a lot of problems. I challenge them every year. I say, okay, you tithe for six months. And at the end of six months, if you're not better off than you are now, I'll pick up the tab for the difference.
SPEAKER 03 :
You just said that to three million people.
SPEAKER 02 :
That's right. And I have never yet anybody take me up on it.
SPEAKER 03 :
Jesus spoke more about money than any other subject. So it must be extremely important to our spiritual welfare as well as to our financial welfare.
SPEAKER 02 :
Well, it's exciting.
SPEAKER 03 :
Mary, we have a great deal of love for you, as I've said, for the kind of person you are, what you represent, not what you give, but who you are. You love the Lord, and it shows in everything that you do. And it's been a pleasure meeting your staff. Some of your people came with you today, and they're sitting in the gallery over there watching us broadcast today. And I just hope that you'll come back, continue doing the great work that you're doing. And I just trust the Lord will be very close to you in this coming year.
SPEAKER 02 :
Thank you. It's been a joy to be here. And I guess I would like to say to every person out there, trust Him, try Him, prove Him. He will never let you down.
SPEAKER 03 :
You really mean that?
SPEAKER 02 :
I really mean that.
SPEAKER 03 :
Have you found that true of your entire lifetime?
SPEAKER 02 :
Absolutely. See, I've learned that Christianity is not a way of doing certain things. It's a certain way of doing all things. And I can absolutely say, without any doubt at all, if you really trust Him... He has a better plan for your life than you can have for yourself. And I am amazed at what he's done with one little orphan gal.
SPEAKER 03 :
Bless you, Mary. Our prayers and our thoughts will be with you. Thank you.
SPEAKER 01 :
Christianity is not a way of doing certain things. It's a certain way of doing all things. What a great thought to wrap up today's classic program featuring the late Mary Crowley here on Family Talk. Now, you've been listening to Dr. James Dobson's Family Talk and a timeless conversation between Dr. Dobson and his guest, Mary Crowley, about finding purpose, building confidence, and trusting God's plan for your life. Mary's remarkable journey from a single mother to building a multi-million dollar business, all while putting God first, continues to inspire women even today. By the way, if you missed any part of this classic program, or if you'd like to share it with someone who really needs a word of encouragement today, visit drjamesdobson.org, or you can find the program easily on the Family Talk app. Here at the Dr. James Dobson Family Institute, we are committed to helping you and your family grow closer to God and each other. But these daily broadcasts and resources are only made possible through the generous support of friends like you who share our vision for strong, faith-filled families. Your tax-deductible donation today will help us continue broadcasting messages of hope and practical wisdom to millions of listeners in America and all over the world. To make a secure donation online, go to drjamesdobson.org. Or if you prefer, you can send your donation through the mail. Dr. James Dobson's Family Talk, P.O. Box 39000, Colorado Springs, Colorado, the zip code 80949. And for more daily inspiration and biblical guidance, I encourage you to explore our reading plans in the Bible app by YouVersion. You can choose from 48 different plans, 24 on marriage and 24 on parenting. Each one contains three lessons to encourage growth in your relationships. These brief devotionals are perfect for busy parents or couples who want to grow together in their faith. Just open the Bible app on your phone or mobile device, search for Dr. James Dobson, and start your first reading plan today. Well, I'm Roger Marsh and from all of us here at Family Talk, we are so grateful that you've joined us for today's classic program. Be sure to join us again next time for another edition of Dr. James Dobson's Family Talk. This has been a presentation of the Dr. James Dobson Family Institute.
In this inspiring episode, Dr. Dobson and Dr. Hawkins discuss The Nehemiah Code, emphasizing its message that it’s never too late for a new beginning. Explore how Nehemiah's biblical account can inform our approach to leadership, teamwork, and personal growth today. Listen as they highlight the importance of building strong foundations and fostering community to overcome life's obstacles.
SPEAKER 02 :
Well, hello everyone. I'm James Dobson and you're listening to Family Talk, a listener-supported ministry. In fact, thank you so much for being part of that support for James Dobson Family Institute.
SPEAKER 01 :
Well, welcome back to Family Talk. I'm Roger Marsh, and on today's program, we're going to hear part two of a fascinating conversation featuring Dr. Dobson and his guest, Dr. O.S. Hawkins, former pastor of the historic First Baptist Church in Dallas, Texas, and president emeritus of Guidestone Financial Resources. On our last broadcast, Dr. Hawkins shared about his ministry helping retired pastors through Mission Dignity, and he introduced his popular series of code books that help believers dive deeper into Scripture. Today, he'll take us into the powerful story of Nehemiah, showing us how this ancient tale of rebuilding Jerusalem's walls offers practical wisdom for anyone seeking a fresh start in life. Now, these insights come from Dr. Hawkins' book, The Nehemiah Code. It's never too late for a new beginning. Through the story of Nehemiah, we'll discover timeless principles for starting fresh. whether we're rebuilding relationships, restoring faith, or seeking a new direction in life. Dr. Hawkins will remind us that with God's help, genuine transformation is always possible. And now let's rejoin Dr. James Dobson for part two of this inspiring conversation here on Family Talk.
SPEAKER 02 :
Dr. Hawkins, thank you so much for being with us again today. I love the program we did together last time. And we've got a lot more to talk about related to your book, The Nehemiah Code. It's never too late for a new beginning. And what I... love about this book is that I really love the story of Nehemiah. But I want to take that story back before you start with the book to how we pick up Nehemiah in Babylon. He was a cupbearer for the king, wasn't he?
SPEAKER 03 :
To King Artaxerxes, yes. And the beautiful thing about Nehemiah, what I like to remind people is he wasn't a preacher. He wasn't a prophet. He wasn't a theologian. He was not a theologian. He was a civil servant. He had a civil service job as cupbearer to Artaxerxes with all the fringe benefits, retirement benefits, everything, and he left it all to be the rebuilder of the broken walls. You know, after the death of King Solomon, as you know, the kingdom of Israel divided into a northern kingdom and a southern kingdom. In the northern kingdom, They were ruled by all wicked kings. There wasn't one good king among them. And in 722, the Assyrians took them away into captivity, and they never returned. The southern kingdom— Did Nebuchadnezzar's army do that? No, that was the Assyrians in 722. In 586, then, to the southern kingdom, Nebuchadnezzar came and besieged Jerusalem. in a horrible siege, and they destroyed the city, broke the walls down, burned the gates, and they took the brightest Jewish minds they could find back to Babylon.
SPEAKER 02 :
Daniel was one of them.
SPEAKER 03 :
Daniel, Shadrach, Meshach, Abednego, and others. And they took them back to re-educate them. They tried to change their language. They tried to change their literature. All those things you can read about in the book of Daniel. And so after a period, the Persians broke the Babylonian supremacy. A remnant had returned to Jerusalem to rebuild the walls, and they got so discouraged that they quit. And Nehemiah heard a report that Jerusalem was a reproach, and the walls were still broken, the gates burned. And he went to the king and begged permission to go back to Jerusalem, and he was granted. And Nehemiah went back to Jerusalem. He made a midnight ride on a horse around the walls, and he wept over the ruins. He did. And he began fasting. He fasted and prayed before the God of heaven, the Bible says. And then he moved and mobilized that remnant that was there that for years had left that city dormant. And in 52 days, they rebuilt the city. And there's some incredible evidence. applications there to how any of us, whoever we are, whatever our circumstance, can rebuild our own broken lives. Because as the subtitle of the book says, and the message of Nehemiah is this, it's never too late for a new beginning.
SPEAKER 02 :
And that's exactly what he did and began building the wall. And it wasn't that he didn't have opposition. Sanballat, as I recall, was out on the edge of town, and he was making fun of him.
SPEAKER 03 :
He said if a fox runs up on it, it'll fall down. Sanballat and Tobias and others, he faced incredible opposition. But he kept focused. He kept going forward. The book is divided into several sections of what you need to do to be a rebuilder. First of all, you've got to get started right. And that's what Nehemiah did. Rebuilders get started right. They make an honest evaluation of the situation. They identify with the need. They take personal responsibility. And then they move out of their comfort zones. You know, we live today in comfort zones. Some of us don't have anything to do with anybody unless they're in our socioeconomic level. or political level, or whatever, educational level. So he got started right. Then the second thing he did, he built a team spirit. And that is so vital in rebuilding. He was a great organizer, wasn't he? He was a credible organizer. And if I had a pencil in my hand right now, a wooden pencil, I could easily break it. But if I put two or three together, it's exponentially more difficult to break. We call that synergy. That's what he did. You know, the Bible says if one can chase 1,000, two can chase 10,000. He understood and recognized that we all need each other in the rebuilding process. So he built this team spirit of those around him. He started with his goal in mind, seized his opportunities, and motivated his people to get off a dead center. One of the most important things he did, he was an example himself. You know, the greatest leadership principle I know in or outside the Bible, and there are millions of leadership books, I suppose. But Gideon, in Judges 7-7, he got his army down to 300 people, as you remember, and was going out to fight thousands of the Midianite host with that little army. And the last thing he said to them, he turned to them in Judges 7-7 and said, do as I do. It's the greatest principle of leadership, I know, because eventually, those of us in leadership, the people on our team are going to do what we do. And so this was one of the real secrets of Nehemiah. He was there with them. He was putting those stones in with them. He was building. He was up and down the lines, showing them appreciation. One of the greatest motivating factors in the rebuilding process is to give people a pat on the back. To say they're appreciated. Let them know that they're appreciated. This is what Jesus did. He went around.
SPEAKER 02 :
And do as I do.
SPEAKER 03 :
Yeah, and do as I do. This is what Jesus did. He went around affirming people. Affirmation is vitally important.
SPEAKER 02 :
You know, a related passage in Scripture. related to Nehemiah is found in the book of Ezra. And Ezra was a priest. And they got in there. This is a wonderful passage. I think it's in the 10th chapter of Ezra. And Nehemiah had to be close at hand. And they got into the ruins of of Jerusalem and came across the scrolls, and they began reading them, and their eyes were opened to their sin, and they were marrying foreign wives and so on. And there was a platform there, and Ezra got up on that platform. and began reading the scrolls.
SPEAKER 03 :
Just read the Word of God.
SPEAKER 02 :
And their eyes popped open, and they began weeping. If there's a moment in Scripture, or one of them, that I would most like to have been there, is to be there when this repentance, this revival broke out through the people. And they say, we sinned against the God of heaven. And they fell on their faces, and Nehemiah was weeping. And that was the beginning of the energy that helped to rebuild the wall, wasn't it?
SPEAKER 03 :
And as the Bible says, it's not my word, God said, like a hammer that breaks a rock to pieces. And when the word of God goes forth, not just in Ezra and Nehemiah's day, but in our day, When we get the word of God into our heart, it makes a huge difference.
SPEAKER 02 :
Don't you wish that spirit would spring across this country and that people would say, oh, I didn't know that was in the Bible. I didn't know what I was doing. Was that wrong? We have sinned against God. Forgive us, Lord. We repent of our sin.
SPEAKER 03 :
Exactly. And that's really the motivating factor that I have behind all these code books, because every one of them go to the Scripture, because it's the Bible. It's the Scripture that brings conviction. You know, there's a lost word in our Christian vocabulary, conviction. When Peter stood up and read from Joel and illustrated it with some Psalms on the day of Pentecost and preached that great Pentecostal proclamation, do you remember what it says? It says their hearts were cut. They fell under deep conviction, and that only comes from the Word of God. You know, another thing about Nehemiah was how he dealt with, I call it, rebuilders never cut what they can untie.
SPEAKER 02 :
You know, I read that, and that didn't ring true to me. I didn't know what you meant by that, but now I do. Explain it.
SPEAKER 03 :
Well, you were a little boy in Fort Worth, and so was I. And in my block over on the east side of Fort Worth, there was an old vacant lot on that block. And that was our ball fit. It was like Yankee Stadium to me and my buddies on Crenshaw Street. And we'd play ball up there. And there was one kid that would come to that vacant lot. And he would always have – he had a pair of black canvas high-top tennis shoes. This was back in the 50s when I was a boy. And those shoes would only be laced up halfway up to the top. And there'd be several eyelets at the top unlaced because he was so impatient that when he would get a knot in his shoelaces, instead of taking the time to untie them, he'd take his pocket knife out and just cut them off. And that's the way a lot of people do in relationships. They don't want to take the time and the effort and the energy to untie those knots that get into a relationship. So they just come along. And for some people, it's easier just to cut them off. And that's why they go from one relationship to another, to another, to another. But when you're rebuilding relationships, You never cut what you can untie. Conflict resolution is a vital important of Nehemiah's story because conflict will tear your team apart. It doesn't matter whether it's at church or at home or in business or wherever. And so Nehemiah, there were four things he did to resolve conflicts. And timing was everything. He said there's a time to back off. There's a time to stand up. There's a time to give in. And there's a time to reach out. You know, some of us don't know when those times are. Some of us, all we do is stand up when we have a conflict and just get in somebody else's face and just move in like a bull and a child. Some of us, just all we do is back off, and we never even deal with it. There's a time to back off and seek God's counsel. That's what I mean about it. But there's also a time to stand up for what's right, and there's a time to give in. You know, when we were raising our daughters with all those books from Dobson – I discovered early on that I would a lot rather lose a few little insignificant battles that didn't amount to a hill of beans and win the bigger war. So I gave in on some non-essentials that I really didn't want to, but they didn't amount to anything. So there's a time to give in, but there's also a time then to reach out. And if you want to know the beautiful illustration of this, we were all in conflict with God. As you mentioned ago, we've all sinned and come short of the glory of God. We're all in conflict with God. So this is the story of the gospel. Christ came to mend the broken relationship. Christ came to reconcile us to God. Christ came to reconcile that conflict resolution. And so what did he do and how did he do it? Those four things. He backed off. See him in Gethsemane's garden the night before the crucifixion, neat those old olive trees, backed off, prayed, took in so he could give out at Calvary. If it's possible, Lord, let this pass from me. Nevertheless, not my will, but yours. Then secondly, we see him after backing off, standing up. He stood up before Caiaphas. He stood up before Annas. He stood up before Pontius Pilate. And then we see him giving in. Nobody pushed him or shoved him up the Via Dolorosa. He went as a lamb for the slaughter, willingly laid down. And finally on the cross, with arms outstretched, we see him reaching out as though he were saying, whosoever will may come. And through him, we can be reconciled to God.
SPEAKER 02 :
And the Lord will forgive and embrace and love. But it requires something on your part. We confess our sins.
SPEAKER 03 :
He's faithful and just to forgive us and cleanse us of all unrighteousness.
SPEAKER 02 :
Hey, tell me that phrase again that I said I didn't understand in the beginning. Never cut what you can untie. All right. And related to the strings? Right.
SPEAKER 03 :
Related to conflict resolution. Take the time to untie those broken relationships.
SPEAKER 02 :
What's the next point from your book, The Nehemiah Code?
SPEAKER 03 :
Well, we talk about how Nehemiah let go without letting up. The secret to what he did was his ability to delegate and to use other people. He let go without letting up. He was the master of this. He set clear objectives. Some of us are trying to rebuild businesses or churches. Set some clear objectives with specific tasks if you want people to be on your team. Let them know what to do. Pick the right person for the right job. So often we put the right person in the wrong job or the wrong person in the right job. Somewhere there's a job that each of us can do.
SPEAKER 02 :
Can you imagine Nehemiah setting out to rebuild a wall?
SPEAKER 03 :
Yeah.
SPEAKER 02 :
What is it, 14, 18 feet thick?
SPEAKER 03 :
Well, anybody that's been to Jerusalem has seen those stones.
SPEAKER 02 :
And they still last today even though they were torn down.
SPEAKER 03 :
Yeah, right.
SPEAKER 02 :
Yeah.
SPEAKER 03 :
Well, he was a builder. And, you know, there's another principle I call yak. I like that. I got it from John Madden.
SPEAKER 02 :
I know about this one.
SPEAKER 03 :
Nehemiah would use this because it's a secret to rebuilding. You know, John Madden was an NFL coach and then color commentator on football games, NFL games. One of the best. One of the best. He coined an acronym, YAC, he called it. Yards After Contact. And it was the amount of yards that a running back, after he was hit initially the first time, how he moved forward, didn't crumble on the ground, didn't fall to the ground, how he kept moving forward toward the goal line. And from the time he was hit to where he went down, that was a new stat called yak. And this is exactly what Nehemiah did, because rebuilders deal with conflict head on. When they get hit, and we're all going to get hit, they don't just crumble or fumble the ball. They keep moving. They keep moving forward. They make some proper adjustments. They keep doing what's right. They rally their troops to greatness.
SPEAKER 02 :
I love that. YAC, Y-A-C, Yards After Contact. Every great runner keeps going when he's been hit. And he carries sometimes three or four or five people with him and sometimes across the goal line.
SPEAKER 03 :
And, you know, we're all going to face opposition. If you're not facing opposition from the devil, you're going in the same direction he is. So we're going to face opposition. And it's all a matter of how we deal with it.
SPEAKER 02 :
Our country is in the midst of conflict right now. And some people have given up. They sit down. Nehemiah did that to start with. He sat down and thought about it. But he got up and went and built a wall. And I think where we are now, we really ought to be doing some of that kind of thinking. I agree 100%.
SPEAKER 03 :
That's what the Nehemiah Code is about. It sets a pathway to us to rebuild anything. What did he eventually do? Did he finish the wall? In 52 days, the wall was completed. He finished strong. And the way he finished strong, actually, was that he stayed off the side streets by keeping focus, and he stayed off the sidelines by being faithful. And, you know, you and I both have seen people that, when they're running the last lap of life, fall on the track. Right. And I don't know about you, and I do know about you, but I know about me also. And one thing I want to do is I want to finish strong. I want to be like Nehemiah, get the job done, finish strong. God's given me a task to do, and that's exactly what I want to be about. You know, there's one of the secrets that I've found in my life. It came from a question that's actually in the Jesus Code, 52 Scripture questions every believer should answer in this code series. And it's the question that was asked in Isaiah 50. Does anyone fear the Lord anymore? Is there anyone who still fears the Lord? And you know, Dr. Dobson, if there is a forgotten subject in the church, it's the fear of God. How long has it been since you heard a sermon on the fear of God? How long has it been since you heard somebody teach on the fear of God? It's a forgotten subject. And the fear of God is not the fear that God is up there and has this big club of retribution. If we say something wrong or do something wrong, he's going to pound us over the head with it. We have to walk on eggshells. It's not the fear that God's going to put his hand on us. The fear of God is the fear that God might take his hand off of us. And if people would just live with that concept every day.
SPEAKER 02 :
You know, instead of fear, I don't want to edit the Bible, but instead of fear, I think of the word awe.
SPEAKER 03 :
Well, that's the word for fear in the Bible, reverential awe. In fact, in the book of Acts, it says that the early church was walking in the fear of the Lord and the comfort of the Holy Spirit, and they were multiplied. So, you know, they were walking in the fear of the Lord. They were living in this environment of the fear of the Lord that they didn't want to do anything that might cause God to take his hand of a blessing off him. All those Old Testament prophets lived in the fear of God. Noah, by fear, moved the ark, Hebrews 11 says. Moses. But he was going to the promised land. What does the Lord require of you, Deuteronomy 10? He asked him. But to fear him as you go. Joshua got the end of his life in chapter 24. His last words to his people. Now then, fear the Lord and serve him in all faithfulness. The Proverbs woman, 31. We bring her out every Mother's Day and make all the women feel guilty because they can't measure up to her. But the secret of her life is way down in verse 31. A woman who fears the Lord, she shall be praised. It's all through the Gospels.
SPEAKER 02 :
It is.
SPEAKER 03 :
Everywhere throughout Scripture. It's all through the book of Acts. It's all through the epistles. Submit yourselves one to another in the fear of the Lord, the Bible says. In fact, this is the way that we keep from sin. Proverbs 16, 6 tells us that by the fear of the Lord, one departs from evil. You know, there's a supernatural principle there that if you walk in the fear of God, he'll keep you from sin. What about Moses at Sinai when he talks about the fear of the Lord? It's all through the Bible. It'll keep us from sin. When we're walking in the fear of the Lord. God gives us a supernatural ability to overcome our sinful desires. I'll tell you something else he'll do. He'll give us supernatural wisdom to know the Word of God you're talking about a moment ago. Psalm 25, 14 says, By the secrets of the Lord are for those who fear him, and to them he'll reveal his covenants.
SPEAKER 02 :
You know, I heard my dad say many times that never forget. And never doubt that the universe has a boss. Exactly. And he's not a winking, blinking grandfather who gives you everything you ask for. But he calls us to righteousness. Exactly. He calls us to stand for truth.
SPEAKER 03 :
And that same God hasn't abdicated his throne. His eyes still run to and fro over this whole world to show himself strong in behalf of those whose hearts are fixed on him.
SPEAKER 02 :
That's what worries me about our country because we have forgotten that fear, that awe. No question. And it's all through scriptures. If you read it, it'll speak to you.
SPEAKER 03 :
Yeah, no doubt about it. In fact, I would challenge your listeners that in your normal devotional time, every time you come across that concept, fear of God, circle it in your Bible, you'll be shocked. how many times it's there. And again, if our listeners today could just understand that the fear of God is not the fear God's going to put his hand of retribution on us, but the fear that he might take his hand of blessing and anointing off of us. And if we'd walk in that environment, it'd make a difference in what we do, what we say, where we go, and all those things of life. And we'd understand, as Nehemiah, that it's never too late for a new beginning.
SPEAKER 02 :
You are preaching still today in many places, aren't you?
SPEAKER 03 :
I am. In fact, I just ran into some of your friends at Scottsdale Bible the other day, and I preached at Michael Youssef's. Jay Snyder's a wonderful guy. I just was out at Church of the Apostles in Atlanta with Michael Youssef. I preach at First Baptist Dallas, my old church still, four or five times a year. Dr. Jeffers is so good to have me back. And so, yeah, but this is God has enlarged my coast. And I'd encourage people if they want to know more about all the code books or mission dignity to go to OSHawkins.com and they can get all the information.
SPEAKER 02 :
Let me remind people of what they are. You've written the Joshua Code, the Jesus Code. The James Code, the Daniel Code, the Believer's Code, the Christmas Code, and the linkage between all of those and the Nehemiah Code is taking a stand for what's right and what God has to say. Put it into your words. I'll put it into Joshua's words in Joshua 1.8.
SPEAKER 03 :
This book of the law shall not depart out of your mouth, but you shall meditate on it day and night in order that you may do all that is written therein, and then you'll make your way prosperous. Then you'll have good success. So these codes are just about getting us, not getting us into the Word of God, but getting the Word of God into us.
SPEAKER 02 :
You know, one of the great pleasures of what the Lord has allowed me to do here is meeting people like you who come in, and I learn from every one of you. And you have been a blessing to me today, and I know to all of our listeners. The title of the book we've been talking about is The Nehemiah Code. It's Never Too Late for a New Beginning. Dr. O.S. Hawkins. You took a lot of time to come and be here. Thank you. Let's do it again. I'd love to. Thank you so much. God bless you, friend. Thank you, brother.
SPEAKER 01 :
Well, just like Nehemiah's careful work of rebuilding Jerusalem's ancient walls, we too are called to be rebuilders in our own time, whether that means repairing broken relationships, strengthening our communities, or restoring what's been lost in our culture. You've been listening to Dr. James Dobson's Family Talk. and a hope-filled conversation about rebuilding and renewal featuring Dr. Dobson and his special in-studio guest, Dr. O.S. Hawkins. Now, if you missed any portion of today's broadcast, or if you'd like to share it with a friend or loved one, visit drjamesdobson.org forward slash family talk. That's drjamesdobson.org forward slash family talk. And once you're there, you'll find the complete program, both parts one and two, along with information about Dr. O.S. Hawkins' book called The Nehemiah Code. And by the way, if you're looking for more practical ways to strengthen your family, we've partnered with the Bible app by YouVersion to bring you free, easy-to-use reading plans that fit your busy schedule. Each plan offers Dr. Dobson's trusted insights on marriage, parenting, and family life delivered right to your phone or tablet. Ready to get started? Well, simply open the Bible app and then search for Dr. James Dobson or JDFI, more family talk, and discover resources that can transform your family one day at a time. Well, I'm Roger Marsh, and from all of us here at Family Talk, thanks so much for listening. Be sure to join us again next time right here for another edition of Dr. James Dobson's Family Talk, the voice you trust for the family you love. This has been a presentation of the Dr. James Dobson Family Institute.
Join Dr. James Dobson on this enlightening episode of Family Talk as he engages with Dr. O.S. Hawkins, a renowned figure in Christian ministry. Discover the remarkable journey of Dr. Hawkins from being a senior pastor to leading Guidestone Financial Resources, where his Mission Dignity program brings hope to retired pastors and their widows. The discussion revolves around the transformative power of faith, drawing wisdom from the biblical story of Nehemiah and how it can inspire us to rebuild important aspects of our lives.
SPEAKER 03 :
Welcome everyone to Family Talk. It's a ministry of the James Dobson Family Institute supported by listeners just like you. I'm Dr. James Dobson and I'm thrilled that you've joined us.
SPEAKER 01 :
Well, welcome to Family Talk, the broadcast division of the Dr. James Dobson Family Institute. I'm Roger Marsh, and today we're joined by a beloved voice in Christian ministry, Dr. O.S. Hawkins, former senior pastor of the historic First Baptist Church in Dallas, Texas. After many, many years in the pulpit, Dr. Hawkins followed God's call to lead Guidestone Financial Resources, where he has helped transform the lives of retired pastors and their widows through their Mission Dignity program. Dr. Now, you may know Dr. Hawkins from his popular Code series of devotional books, including The Joshua Code, The Jesus Code, and our topic for today, The Nehemiah Code. In today's conversation with Dr. Dobson, Dr. Hawkins will share an encouraging word about new beginnings, drawing wisdom from the biblical story of Nehemiah. Whether you're looking to rebuild relationships or start fresh in any other area of your life, you will not want to miss what these two doctors have to say on this most important topic. Let's get into this conversation right now on today's edition of Dr. James Dobson's Family Talk.
SPEAKER 03 :
Doctor? We are so pleased and honored to have a man here that many of you will recognize because his name is very well known in Christendom. He is Dr. O.S. Hawkins, who for years was the head pastor of of the historic First Baptist Church in Dallas, Texas, where Dr. W.A. Criswell was the beloved pastor for 50 years. I love that church. I've spoken there. Of course, Dr. Robert Jeffress is the senior pastor now, but Dr. Hawkins holds a doctorate of ministry from Luther Rice Seminary, and he's working on a PhD now at Southwestern Seminary, which will make him the oldest earner of a Ph.D. in the history of the school. Is that right? I think that's pretty close. And you're about to work on your dissertation. I am. Well, you're a Texan. I'm a Texan. We had dinner together, and I found out I really like you. I mean to tell you, I would like to be your friend for the rest of my life, and it would be just a pleasure to have you here again because you have the same values and the same beliefs that I do, and we have walked a similar path. And it's a pleasure to have you here. You flew here to be with us today. And God is blessing your life, isn't he?
SPEAKER 02 :
He is. And let me just say, for my wife Susie and myself, in the library of people we've always loved and respected, you and Shirley are way up there on the top shelf, because we couldn't have raised our girls back in the 70s and the 80s without Dare to Discipline, without Hide or Seek, and especially without The Strong-Willed Child. Susie told me today that she got that book out and looked at it again, and It's tear-stained all the way through it.
SPEAKER 03 :
Well, you've got to bring her here the next time you come. I shall. You have two daughters.
SPEAKER 02 :
We have two daughters. And they're grown. Wendy and Holly. Wendy is an attorney. She and her husband are both attorneys in Dallas. They have two children. And then Holly, our youngest, is an author with Thomas Nelson with Children's Devotionals. And she's married to a young man who's one of the ministers at Prestonwood Baptist Church in Dallas.
SPEAKER 03 :
And they have four children. That's Dr. Jack Graham's church. It is. I've been there, too. I have in front of me a copy of the cover of Holly's book, I Can Learn the Bible. Gave a plug to that book some years ago, and I hope that it hasn't disappeared.
SPEAKER 02 :
No, you did, and she is greatly appreciated. She has that, and then she also has the children's devotional called I Can Learn to Pray, and they're incredible books for teaching our kids. You know, as parents, we want to teach our kids to learn the Bible. We want to teach them to pray. Sometimes we don't know how, and these are books that just help hold hands with parents and help them really know how they can lead their kids to do that.
SPEAKER 03 :
those things well you are no longer a pastor but you're working in a church context and in a way that is extremely helpful primarily to widows but to pastors and others who are having difficulty financially but describe for me what your application of the ministry is now
SPEAKER 02 :
In 1997, I left the pastor of the First Baptist Church in Dallas, where I love those people to this day and have such great memories of my days and years there. I left there to become president of Guidestone Financial Resources. It is a Christian evangelical mutual fund that serves 250,000 different participants over 300 years. Christian universities, 40,000 churches with all kinds of financial service needs. We're the world's largest Christian screen mutual fund. You just slurred past that, but say that again. Guidestone is the world's largest Christian screen mutual fund, $16 billion under assets right now. And we just received a few years ago from Lipper and Morningstar in New York, the number one mutual fund. in the country beating out 242 other mutual funds with assets of $40 billion and below. And so we're proving that you can keep your Christian values and still not sacrifice excellence in the investment arena.
SPEAKER 03 :
So our Guidestone Funds— That means you don't invest in any known association with—
SPEAKER 02 :
Our investment policy is that we don't invest in companies that are publicly recognized to be involved in alcohol, gambling, tobacco, abortion, pornography, or any other issues like that that are abhorrent to our Christian values.
SPEAKER 03 :
Now, you call this a ministry, and there's a reason for it. I alluded to it earlier explained.
SPEAKER 02 :
Right. It's a ministry because we serve these pastors and churches. You know, our goal is to get a couple of these generations on our watch to vocational retirement with enough financial security that they don't have to be on somebody else's relief roll, that they can have enough financial security, they can volunteer for ministry and missions all over the world, because we also serve a lot of folks who don't have that privilege. We have a ministry called Mission Dignity. Dr. Dobson, we're on a mission to bring dignity to some forgotten folks, and that's retired pastors, and in most cases now, they're widows. Average age is about 85 in our program, living at the poverty level. These are folks who pastored out in the crossroads of life in seemingly forgotten places, lived in a church-owned home all their ministry, never made enough to get by much less.
SPEAKER 03 :
Many of them didn't even get Social Security because the church couldn't pay for it.
SPEAKER 02 :
Right. And they couldn't get by because they had no money to prepare for retirement. They were just trying to live from week to week and paycheck to paycheck. And so we come alongside them in their declining years. Ten years ago, we raised enough money to give them, I'm talking about thousands of people in this program, to give them $50 a month extra. But we've raised so much money recently, that the neediest among them now get $630 a month. One little pastor's widow, 87 years old, wrote me recently and said, I get to eat at night now, and it's not just a piece of toast. Isn't that unbelievable? Yeah. So to be Christ-hand extended to these people, it's close to the heart of God. In the book of James, the Bible tells us that pure and undefiled religion is this, to take care of widows. And that's all through the Scriptures. It's woven throughout the Scriptures, and it's our privilege to be Christ's hand extended. The beautiful thing about this program... is that we have endowed years ago all the expenses of the program. So everybody that works in the bookkeeping of it, everybody that works in the development program, all their salaries are paid out of this endowment. All the printed materials that we provide for the people, even the stamp that goes on the check to thousands of these people each month is paid for out of that endowment so that everyone who gives to Mission Dignity knows that every single penny they give goes to them. And we've raised $150 million. Wow. in the last 10 or 15 years for this. And all the royalties to my books, we have a code series of devotional books with Thomas Nelson.
SPEAKER 03 :
And we're going to talk about that today.
SPEAKER 02 :
Yeah, they've sold over a million and a half copies in the last three or four years. And the reason I can talk about that is because all the royalties to all those books also go to these precious people in mission. You know, there's a baby boomer generation that's coming into retirement, and they're not prepared for retirement. And they're getting a double whammy. Some of them still have... aged parents that they're trying to take care of. And at the same time, they've got kids that are 30 or 40 years old that many of them are still providing for. So we've got a whole situation with mission dignity where we continue to grow it because of the growing need that's there. I would like everybody to remember that name. Say it again. Mission Dignity. Yeah, you can go to OSHawkins.com and click. There's a page there. You can click on Mission Dignity. Just listen to a few of the videos of these people and learn more about the program there.
SPEAKER 03 :
Well, I'm glad we had a chance to talk about that. We're actually here to talk about your book. And you mentioned that you have written a number of books. And the linkage to them all is the word CODE, C-O-D-E. And those books are? The Joshua Code, the Jesus Code, the James Code, the Daniel Code, the Believer's Code, the Christmas Code, and the Easter Code, and the one we're going to talk about today, the Nehemiah Code. What is the linkage between all this?
SPEAKER 02 :
I believe that there are nuggets of truth in Scripture, in these books of the Bible, that really, when they're mine, can give us a code to live on and to live by. And so these are all devotional books. And the secret to them, Dr. Dobson, is in the subtitle. For example, the first one is the Joshua Code. And the subtitle is 52 Scripture Verses. every believer should know. So it's a devotional book for a year where you take one verse of Scripture, memorize it that week. You know, Scripture memories are a lost art in Christian living. Memorize that verse that week. There are devotional helps on it there through it. And it's a year-long devotion. It comes from Joshua 1.8 that says, shall not depart out of your mouth, but you shall meditate on it day and night in order to do all that is written therein. Then you'll make your way prosperous. Then you'll have good success. So what I found was that there were a lot of people who wanted to get into the Word of God. They just didn't know where to start. They start in the book of Genesis, and by the time they get to Leviticus, they're bogged down. Or if they start in the New Testament, they get to Matthew, and they can't pronounce four-fifths of the names in the genealogy in Matthew 1. So I picked out 52 verses in the Bible. If you know these verses, you're going to know the message of the Bible. And if you know these verses, there are 52 verses I believe every believer should know before they go to heaven. And it had such success, it sold several hundred thousand copies, that we followed it up with the Jesus Code. Do you know, one of the things, I was reading through the Gospels just devotionally, and I was astounded by something interesting. I'd seen a hundred times before, but never really seen, if you know what I mean. And that was the numbers of times Jesus asked questions in the Scripture. He was always asking questions. Now, He didn't need answers. He was omniscient. He knew everything. But 150 questions are recorded in the Gospels that escape the lips of our Lord. It dawned on me that there are 52 Scripture questions every believer ought to answer before they go to heaven. And so we wrote the Jesus Code. Again, it's a devotional book, take you through a year, with 52 questions. If a man dies, shall he live again? All these questions in the Bible, most of them from the lips of Jesus. Who do you say that I am? That people ought to know before they get to heaven. And then we followed that up with the James Code of Practical Principles for Christian Living, the Daniel Code, how to really live in this culture, Daniel Code. was taken out of a culture that he lived in. And much like many of us, we're living in a new culture around us today and how he thrived in it. Then we have the Believer's Code, which is a 365-day devotional. And what's really taken off is the Christmas Code. And the Christmas Code is an Advent devotional, 25 sermons from December 1 to 25. And in the back of it is the plan of salvation, plainly experienced, where somebody could put their faith and trust in Christ. And it's a little paperback. There's a church in Syracuse, New York, wrote me, and they bought 9,000 of them and put them on every door ever. in a certain mile radius of their church with an invitation to their Christmas Eve service. That church runs about 800 or 900 in worship. 1,900 people showed up to their Christmas Eve service, and hundreds of people came to know.
SPEAKER 03 :
Well, you left the pastorate for another assignment, and yet you're probably preaching, quote-unquote, to more people now than you were then.
SPEAKER 02 :
In the pulpit. I preach almost every Sunday in the pulpit somewhere around the country. But through the printed page, God has just enlarged my coast and my sphere of influence. You know, there's an incredible verse of Scripture in 2 Corinthians 10-13. It says that God has assigned to us an area of influence. Now think about that. Somewhere there's somebody that every one of us can reach like no one else can because God has assigned an area of influence. Now you were a track star in high school. Oh, no. Well, you ran track with Bobby Morrow, the Olympic champion. That's him. Okay. But you ran track. Okay. So when the Corinthians were reading this and they saw that, they would have immediately jumped to their feet when they saw that Greek word Paul used to say that God has assigned an area of influence. It's the same Greek word that they would use in those Grecian games or we would use in track meets to describe a lane in which you're to run. When you run a relay race or you run in a track meet, you're assigned a lane and you can't get out of that. If you get out of that lane, you're disqualified and you have to run that race in that lane. And that's the word Paul used to say that God has assigned to every one of us a an area of influence. And so I want to just say this about you. You know, the word influence comes from two Latin words, in and flow. And the word picture is of this mighty river that's flowing vibrant and crystal clear and with a deep current, and into it run these little tributaries and streams and creeks that flow into it and are carried away in its flow. And that's where we get our word influence. And so I'm thankful to be here today because I'm one of those people of the millions that got caught up in Jim Dobson's flow. in that area of influence God assigned to you.
SPEAKER 03 :
That brings tears to my eyes because the truth of the matter is I can't take the credit for it. The Lord was doing something, and it was a shock to me all the way along as to what was happening. And the fact that he could use me, you know, Shirley and I were just college kids that got married and we really didn't know where the Lord was taking us. Although I was headed for graduate school, I knew what I wanted to do there. But it's just been amazing how doors have opened. And whenever I've gotten to a barrier, it has moved. And I couldn't do that. There's nothing I could do. And so it's almost scary to me to take the credit for what's taking place.
SPEAKER 02 :
Well, the last chapter in the new Nehemiah Code that we're going to talk about in a moment is about finishing strong. And if anybody's ever finished strong, you and Shirley certainly are finishing strong. And, you know, going back to influence. In fact, I wrote a book that all the royalties also go to mission dignity called VIP. You know, that acronym. We couldn't exist in our vocabulary in English if we didn't use acronyms. I mean, we were talking about education a while ago. If you want to go to college to earn a BA, you better have a good GPA and you better score well on the SAT or you're not going to get a BA and then can't get an MA. You know, we're being protected by the CIA and the FBI right now. Now, April 15th, the IRS is going to come knocking on my door. I'm cancer-free today because of a test called PSA test. I use the ESV because I think the NIV is a little too eclectic. We live by acronyms, and no acronym has muscled and maneuvered its way into English vernacular more than that one, VIP. Very important person, because being important is the life goal of a lot of people. But I've changed that acronym because I think it's supposed to mean VIP. very influential person. You know, the world has a way of forgetting those people that deem themselves important, but we have a long memory when it comes to those who've influenced our lives. And so VIP, and I want to say this about you before you cut me off, because if you're going to be a person of influence, a VIP, those are the three things that are vital. V is for vision. People who influence others know where they're going. People don't follow people that don't know where they're going. I Somebody says, well, that ought to be intellect because knowledge is power. Somebody says it ought to be intensity and passion. No, it's for integrity. I've known a lot of people with a lot of great intellect had no integrity and aren't in the race anymore. And P is for purpose. They don't just know where they are going and who they are. They know why they're here. And Jim, the one thing about you is this. You've lived your life knowing where you were going, who you were, and why you're here. And because of that, God has enlarged the scope of your ministry, and even to this very day. My goodness.
SPEAKER 03 :
Again, that's very touching to me, and the Lord's blessed you in the same way, and continues to do so.
SPEAKER 02 :
I'm simply saying what millions of people would say if they were sitting in the microphone, having the opportunity to say thank you.
SPEAKER 03 :
I heard you speak at the Ruth Shanahan's funeral. This was, what, two years ago?
SPEAKER 02 :
Two years ago.
SPEAKER 03 :
And was very impressed by what you had to say there. She was a great lady, wasn't she?
SPEAKER 02 :
She was a wonderful lady. Came from a wonderful lady by the name of Mary Crowley, her mom. And I just got through preaching her brother, Don Carter's funeral here the other day. But Ruth Shanahan's one of the greatest women I know. And she loved two organizations. She loved three organizations. She loved our First Baptist Church in Dallas. She loved the Billy Graham Association, and she loved Jim and Shirley Dobson. And she gave her life to those organizations and her money to those organizations.
SPEAKER 03 :
She helped support Shirley's work in the National Day of Prayer as well as ours. So I love her for a bunch of reasons. Your book, again, is called The Nehemiah Code, but the subtitle is very important. It's never too late for a new beginning. A new beginning reminds me of Ronald Reagan, because when he was inaugurated all over town, there were these billboards and signs saying, A New Beginning. And we had one. And we did have one. And this book really comes back to that phrase in many of the illustrations and points that you make.
SPEAKER 02 :
And you know, no matter who we are, what we've done, where we live— It's never too late for a new beginning. You know, there are a lot of people needing a new beginning. There are people who've lost their self-confidence looking for a new beginning. People have been divorced and they're trying to start over. They need a new beginning. People have lost a spouse. It opens the page of a new chapter, a new beginning in their lives. Churches are looking to reach revitalized new beginning. Businesses are needing a new beginning. Coaches are rebuilding teams. Rebuilding process is something that touches every single one of us. And while many people just look at Nehemiah for the leadership principles that are there, what I believe the book is really about is the fact that it's never too late to rebuild our lives. It's never too late to rebuild the broken walls and the burned gates of our lives and have a second chance.
SPEAKER 03 :
That new beginning often involves repentance and reconciliation and forgiveness, doesn't it? You start there. I mean, none of us is perfect. We have all sinned and fallen short of the glory of God. And he can take whatever mess you've made out of your life and make it new.
SPEAKER 02 :
You're in the middle of the bullseye because broken relationships, for example. There's an offending party and there's an offended party. In most cases, there's a little bit of both of us in all of them that get broken. But by and large, there's an offending party and an offended party. So two things have to happen for a new beginning. There must be, as you just said, a spirit of repentance on the part of the offending party. But there also has to be a spirit of reception on the heart of the offended party. And as a pastor for decades, one of the things I found in dealing with people's lives and broken relationships was often it was more the folks that just couldn't bring themselves to accept the fact the person had repented and received them back than it was the people that didn't repent to mend the broken relationship. So those two things are vital in doing that for sure. And forgiveness is the key.
SPEAKER 03 :
And we have just barely started the conversation about the Nehemiah Code, and the time is gone. You've flown here. Will you stay long enough to do another program with us? In a drop-dead, heartbeat minute. Well, we've got a lot to talk about here, and I can't wait to get into it. Great. I appreciate you. I appreciate your kind words to me, but they rebound from me to you immediately. And the life you've lived, you've lived a life of integrity and purpose. And thank you for being true to the gospel and to the one that we love, Jesus Christ. And he's continuing to bless you. Let's leave it there and pick it up next time. Wonderful. Wonderful.
SPEAKER 01 :
Well, you've been listening to Family Talk and an inspiring conversation featuring our own Dr. James Dobson and his guest, Dr. OS Hawkins, about finding new beginnings through God's grace. These powerful insights remind us that it's never too late to rebuild, whether it's in a relationship, our faith, or our purpose in life. Now, if you missed any part of today's broadcast or if you'd just like to share it with someone who needs this message of hope, go to drjamesdobson.org forward slash family talk. And keep in mind, you can also access this program on the JDFI app as well. Well, today's program about hope and new beginnings and others like it are made possible through the generous support of friends just like you. If today's conversation about God's transforming power has touched your heart, would you consider partnering with us? Your tax-deductible donation of any amount helps us continue broadcasting biblical truth to families all across America and all over the world. You can make a secure donation online when you go to drjamesdobson.org. That's drjamesdobson.org. Or give us a call at 877-732-6825. And before we leave for today, I want to remind you about a helpful way to receive daily encouragement from Family Talk, and that's by signing up for our free reading plans on the Bible app by YouVersion. Whether you're waiting in the carpool or taking a quiet moment before bedtime, these brief devotionals offer practical wisdom for your family journey, featuring topics like a mother's impact on her children, Now, the plans are designed to fit your busy schedule while helping you build a stronger family on God's foundation. To access these free reading plans, simply open the Bible app on your phone or tablet and search for JDFI, the Dr. James Dobson Family Institute. These bite-sized devotionals might be just what you need to bring fresh biblical perspective to your daily routine. I'm Roger Marsh, inviting you to join us again next time for part two of Dr. Dobson's powerful discussion with Dr. O.S. Hawkins. That's coming your way next time right here on Dr. James Dobson's Family Talk, the voice you trust for the family you love. This has been a presentation of the Dr. James Dobson Family Institute.
Join the conversation as Dr. James Dobson and Dr. Carol Swain delve into the fascinating journey of faith, academia, and mentorship. Dr. Swain, who emerged from the depths of poverty, shares her inspiring story of overcoming insurmountable odds to earn multiple degrees and become a university professor. Along the way, she found her true calling in Christ, transforming her life and mission.
SPEAKER 01 :
Hello, everyone. You're listening to Family Talk, a radio broadcasting ministry of the James Dobson Family Institute. I'm Dr. James Dobson, and thank you for joining us for this program.
SPEAKER 02 :
Well, welcome to Family Talk, the broadcast division of the Dr. James Dobson Family Institute. I'm Roger Marsh, and today we're continuing a remarkable conversation featuring Dr. Dobson and Dr. Carol Swain. Now, Dr. Swain grew up in rural poverty as one of 12 children, often missing a lot of school simply to survive. Later, she would go on to earn not one, but five college degrees and also teach at some of America's most prestigious universities. But academic success and professional accolades left her searching for something more. So stay with us right now as Dr. Swain shares her extraordinary journey from poverty to PhD right here on Family Talk. Doctor?
SPEAKER 01 :
Well, those of you who were with us yesterday heard the story, the early home life and experience in college of Dr. Carol Swain. And she had just graduated from when we got to that point at the end of the program. If you didn't hear that broadcast, you really ought to find it on the Internet. I mean, it's just an app away and listen because you're going to really be moved by what you're going to hear today. But it begins with what we said yesterday. Carol, thank you for being back with us. And I want to tell you a story. You told me one yesterday. I had a friend named David Hernandez. David came out of utter poverty in Mexico, and his father was a Christian, a Seventh-day Adventist Christian, and the whole family was Christian, but they had no resources, none, and they were hungry. And they swam the Rio Grande River and made it into the United States. Those who are concerned about illegal entrance into the United States, before you get too angry about that, listen to this story. Reverend Hernandez didn't have food for his family. and couldn't find a job of any type in the United States. So he went to the governor's mansion in Arizona and sat around on the grounds knowing that that man had to come out at some time. And when the governor came out, Mr. Hernandez went to him and said, sir, we're not asking for food. We don't want money. We want a job. Will you give us a job? And he gave them a job. And they began working the potato crop and other crops up and down the state of California. They lived under trees. They had an oil drum stove. And little David was the oldest son. He had never lived in even a chicken coop because they lived out under the trees. You know, you can imagine that little boy being out there. No schooling, no resources, no one to really help him except he was a believer in Jesus Christ. Well, the Adventists saw him out there and gave him a scholarship, and he began going to an Adventist school. And like you, he was brilliant. And he was able to do the work. And he went on at the top of his class, graduated from high school, and went to Loma Linda University, which is an Adventist university, and then to USC School of Medicine and to Loma Linda University School of Medicine. Graduated at the top of his class. went on and became an OBGYN, I think world known, and my friend. And who would have believed that humble little family, you know, with nothing, really nothing, would go on to produce a child who would become just a highly competent physician in that way. That story reminds me of you. in a way, because that is, in essence, what has happened to you. You graduated from college. We heard that last time. And then you began working through graduate school. Tell us that story.
SPEAKER 03 :
Well, I never anticipated that I would become a university professor. And when I embarked, you know, my college career, all I was thinking about was I had been in bad situations, a bad marital situation. I just wanted to earn enough money, you know, to be able to take care of my children. And so I earned the four-year degree in criminal justice. When I thought about my career options, I knew I did not want a law enforcement career. I thought I would do public administration. So I went to Virginia Tech to get my next degree, and I assumed that it would be – that I would work for the government, and my degree was in political science. But once I got there, professors took an interest in me, and they started encouraging me to go to graduate school. So I applied to graduate school, to UNC and to Duke. I got admitted to the University of North Carolina and started the Ph.D. program there. And while I was there, I was mentored by people that didn't look like me. I gave conference papers. I did whatever they told me I needed to do to be successful, which was come up with original ideas, give conference papers. And I did all of that. By the time I was graduating, I was known across the country as I was able to go on to the job market with my own short list of schools. I got a signing bonus. To be a professor. To be a professor. But growing up as a child, I thought you had to be rich to go to college. And how I see God's hand is that he put people in my life that steered me and circumstances steered me. Becoming a university professor is like the last thing I would have chosen because I didn't know anything about being a professor.
SPEAKER 01 :
Well, Carol, you turned out to be an outstanding student in all of the schools. You have, what, five degrees now?
SPEAKER 03 :
Yes, I do.
SPEAKER 01 :
And one of them is a Ph.D. from North Carolina University. In what?
SPEAKER 03 :
In political science.
SPEAKER 01 :
So when I introduced you yesterday as Dr. Carol Swain, that's because you do hold an earned Ph.D. from a big university.
SPEAKER 03 :
Yes, I have a Ph.D. from University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill and two master's degrees, one from Virginia Tech and the other from Yale in law.
SPEAKER 01 :
Who would have believed that little girl that you used to be? who didn't go to school 100 and something days per year because of circumstances, would actually earn a Ph.D. from a major university and then go on to be a professor at Princeton.
SPEAKER 03 :
That was where I got my tenure, my first job, and then I went from there to Vanderbilt. And so I've been at two elite institutions. But to me, the greatest miracle is that I was so painfully shy as a child and throughout my young adulthood that I would literally forget how to speak. And God removed that shyness after I had my Christian conversion experience.
SPEAKER 01 :
You would write the words out of your lecture.
SPEAKER 03 :
I would write the words out, and in college I would write down the question I was going to ask or the comment, and I would read it, and my voice would be quivering, and I would clutch the lectrum. If someone asked me my name, I'd be so nervous I would freeze. I would forget it. And the Lord impressed on my mind that he had given me a message that was bigger than me. As long as I focused on him, I could deliver the message. And since then, I would say that I've given thousands of interviews starting in the early 2000s on radio, TV, print, because I believe that God has called me to be a spokesperson to speak truth to power. And I learned a lot along the way about role models because the people that God has used in my life were not people that looked like me. They were white. They were... In almost every case, they were male, they were older, and they were conservative, and they really instilled in me this belief that I could do anything. And I did not see myself as handicapped, disadvantaged, because I was black, I was poor, I was a woman, I had children. Part of that time I was divorced. I did not see myself as handicapped.
SPEAKER 01 :
And then how did you come to know Jesus Christ?
SPEAKER 03 :
I became a devout believer late in my life, in my 40s, and this was after I had won national prizes and had been very successful in academia as a professor. Once I got to tenure, I would say that God yanked a rug out from under my feet because nothing I had accomplished brought me satisfaction. I won the highest prize in my profession, the Woodrow Wilson Prize for Best Book in Politics in the United States. It competed nationwide. And, um, I was the first black and the second woman to win that prize. And I won the prize for the best book on Congress. I was a co-winner of the V.O. Key Award for Best Book on Southern Politics. This was my first book. And I was earning more money than I ever imagined I would be earning. I should have been happy, but I was not happy. Those prizes and that recognition did not fill those empty places. God used students in my classes as well as secretaries, staff people, that I always had a heart for those people because, I guess, because of my background. But he was always after me, and he won.
SPEAKER 01 :
Tell me about that experience. Yeah. Do you remember just literally, consciously opening your heart to Him?
SPEAKER 03 :
Well, I mean, it was like a long journey, I would say, of just seeking and being interested in spiritual things. But I was in a medical hospital in Princeton in 1997, where I had an experience that I felt as if my life was being played out in front of me with a narrator, and that narrator was showing me different points in my life, telling me to choose. And I felt like, you know, the narrator was showing that, you know, sometimes I was good. Sometimes I was like an angel. Sometimes I was like a devil. You know, what was it going to be? And I chose Jesus Christ. That was a black Pentecostal chaplain at the Princeton Hospital. And anyone that knows about Princeton would know that that's not the kind of hospital that you get a Pentecostal chaplain, that you might get Catholic or Lutheran, Episcopalian. You don't get black Pentecostal. But he was there. And he talked with me and prayed with me. And there was a cleaning lady that threw a book in my bed, in the hospital bed, about Jesus. And she said, this is all you need. And that Pentecostal pastor arranged for me to get baptized, and I got baptized in the winter in a coal metal tub of what felt like ice water in Trenton. It took me two years later to realize what it meant to be a Christian. And so the two years after that baptismal in that little church place, I was blending Christianity, New Age, and Eastern. I had the Swain religion.
SPEAKER 01 :
But God was still— The Lord really took you on a journey. Yeah.
SPEAKER 03 :
He kept sending people to me, and it was like there was no way to get away from it. But I started changing my life. And I had been the kind of person that I always felt the church was full of hypocrites, and I would never be one of those hypocrites. That's how I felt. And— I don't think I would have been comfortable going to a church if I was actively practicing sin. You know, if I was involved in fornication or any kind of big thing that I knew was sin. So my life sort of cleaned up before I knew I was ready to become a devout believer of Christ. And at that point, it all came together for me. I realized that my life did not belong to me, that my life was... Belonged to Jesus. And I knew what it meant to be a follower of Jesus, that everything just totally came clear to me. And I've never looked back. And that was the end of my spiritual journey. journey. And I'm sure that people that have known me all my life waited for the other shoe to drop. And this, my faith in Christ, you know, has been enduring.
SPEAKER 01 :
You know, we don't have time for the complete story. And there are books that you've written, and there's more to it than we're going to be able to cover. But you have become very conservative in your outlook on life and you've been in a very liberal setting at these major universities where you've been targeted by students, very liberal students and sometimes professors and the local paper and everything that has done everything they could to destroy you. You have stood up against all that. There's a wonderful story there, Carol. And I urge you to write this story. I mean, it's remarkable when all aspects of it are understood. It is just really unbelievable what God has done in your life. And it is a story about him, not you.
SPEAKER 03 :
It is, and the body of Christ, because I don't think I would have survived had it not been for the prayers of the saints. And that was the biggest thing that came out of my salvation experience is that all of a sudden, you know, I had Christ and I had the body of Christ.
SPEAKER 01 :
Well, and they have supported you and prayed for you and been with you. And you've had the courage to stand up in a place where not very many people would have survived. And I admire you for that. Now, with our remaining time, I wish there were more. You have written a book called Abduction. And it has to do with what the culture is doing to young people today. Our children, the children of Christian people, are being snatched away. And they have been taught an alien philosophy and theology and way of life, things that are wrong. And this is going on in universities all around the country and even in public schools. And you said to me today, even in private schools.
SPEAKER 03 :
Yes. I mean, there's clearly a war against the children of believers. And a lot of parents, you know, are very trusting of the educational system. And what they miss is that there are people that have chosen to become teachers in public and private schools. just to get access to the children. And they have an indoctrination, this new morality that moves them away from the Judeo-Christian values and principles that Christian children are taught in Sunday school and by their parents. It moves them towards the humanism, the secularism, the political correctness. And the political left is doing a very effective job of stealing the children of believers.
SPEAKER 01 :
You saw that firsthand.
SPEAKER 03 :
I saw it firsthand. And there's so many parents that will tell you that when that child went off even to middle school by Thanksgiving, you see them shifting. And the political left shames the children, you know, and they treat Christianity in such a way that it stigmatizes. And I don't believe that we're doing enough to prepare our children for what they're going to confront in the world. One of the things that's needed is worldview training as well as apologetics, and that needs to be a part of the Sunday school curriculum. And parents need to realize that when they send their children to certain institutions, and there are many institutions that have prestige programs They are cooperating sometimes in a system that will destroy that child and everything they've tried to pour into the child.
SPEAKER 01 :
Would you recommend? that the people who are listening to us today and have high school graduates and young people that are deciding what to do next, go to those big prestigious schools and allow them to be subjected to the belief system that's alien to what Christians believe. What recommendations do you have to them?
SPEAKER 03 :
Well, part of my recommendations, you know, has to do with the parents need to educate themselves about, you know, the world system. And even some of the Christian schools are not safe places. Many of the people that I've met whose faith has been destroyed, the children's faith have been destroyed. It happened at a Christian school because when you go there, sometimes you let your guard down. You assume you're with people who are going to share your values. That's not always true. And I think that... Before parents pay their hard-earned money or the money they inherited to send their child to a college and university, they need to make sure that that child is sufficiently grounded in their faith and in their knowledge so that they will not be swept away. Because there is an indoctrination system that's designed to unlearn children. Everything they've been taught about their own values. And so parents need to be informed about what's taking place. And they need to, if they have children that are in public schools or elite private schools, to be quizzing those kids about what they're learning, to be looking at the textbooks, to really be meeting the teachers. Because otherwise, by the time they are made aware, it can be too late.
SPEAKER 01 :
It's impossible for me. to express how strongly I feel about what you just said. And obviously, I agree with you 100%. Let me clarify to say that there are a lot of great Christian teachers who are giving their lives to transmit their faith to the children who have been sent there and doing, even if they're in public schools, everything they can to defend the things that they believe and that they know their parents believe. So a lot of that goes on, and we can't castigate all teachers for that. But I'm telling you, that's not the norm anymore. The norm, especially in the large state universities, the large prestigious schools, but everywhere today, the culture wants to take your children to hell. And they're working on it every day. And you have to be very, very careful what you subject your children sons and daughters too, not only in colleges and graduate schools, but throughout the educational system, starting in kindergarten.
SPEAKER 03 :
Yes.
SPEAKER 01 :
It is amazing what is being done. And when you talk about stealing their minds away, I have seen it, I believe it, and it scares me to death.
SPEAKER 03 :
And the professors and teachers who are Christian who are fighting against that system, they find themselves targeted a lot. And, you know, it's very important for us to support them and to use the resources God has given us in a way that we are good stewards, but we're not funding things that are destroying the values of our children.
SPEAKER 01 :
Dr. Carol Swain has been our guest yesterday and today, and I've enjoyed so much not only hearing about your story, but what comes next. You are speaking and using your influence along the line of what we just talked about with this abduction concern. but other things. God's not through with you yet, is He?
SPEAKER 03 :
No, He's clearing my schedule, I think, for bigger and better things, and I will be still speaking on university campuses and still trying to help the believers strategize about how to restore, you know, what's left of our Judeo-Christian heritage.
SPEAKER 01 :
What a fascinating conversation this has been, and I especially seeing what God has done with you from those early, early days. When he was saying to you, you're different, Carol. I've got a plan for you. And I'm going to show you what it is as you go along. He's done that, hasn't he?
SPEAKER 03 :
He certainly has. One of the scriptures that he has impressed on my mind is Jeremiah 1.5. Before I formed you in your mother's womb, I knew you. And that applies to all of us.
SPEAKER 01 :
It does. And for those who are listening to us who don't know him, who have not met him, who have not had the kind of encounter, you and I have enjoyed. I would simply pray a simple prayer. You don't have to earn it, do you? You don't have to get out and prove it. All you have to do is accept it. And I trust that the Lord will use what we've been saying these two days to have an influence on thousands of people who are listening to us. Blessings to you, Dr. Swain. Thank you so much. I honor you for what you've done with your life and how hard you've worked to get where you are, but it's only the beginning.
SPEAKER 03 :
To God be the glory.
SPEAKER 02 :
Amen. Dr. Carol Swain's journey from childhood poverty to becoming a distinguished professor beautifully illustrates how faith, determination, and mentorship can transform a life. Well, this concludes our powerful two-part conversation featuring our own Dr. James Dobson and a special in-studio guest, Dr. Carol Swain, on today's edition of Family Talk. By the way, if you missed part one, I encourage you to catch up by going online at to drjamesdobson.org forward slash family talk and search our broadcast archives there also don't forget you can spend a few minutes every day gaining wisdom for your family and your marriage with free reading plans from the dr james dobson family institute simply download the bible app by you version on your phone or tablet and search for our ministry jdfi to get started today Well, I'm Roger Marsh, inviting you back next time for another edition of Dr. James Dobson's Family Talk, the voice you trust for the family you love. This has been a presentation of the Dr. James Dobson Family Institute.
